"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:06 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:02 pm
This feels like a Super Perfect Cell, Infinite Zamasu Kinda deal where this won’t last more than two chapters.
Yeah, when I look at the fusion, it looks like Perfect Cell and Moro fused together and made that thing. The design was an immediate 'EEEEEEEKKKK!' from me. Its not ugly, but god what the hell? It looks like something I'd see on deviantart rather than an official manga design.

Given Vegeta's ability to break a fusion, he may try using it, though Moro is going to be weary of him due to how close Vegeta came to clutching victory.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:09 pm

But seriously, I can't be the only who did a 'What the fuck?' When I heard Esca say,"The Dragon balls must've kept their bodies preserved and stuff! That means those Moro didn't directly kill can come back!" I legit was confused as hell when I heard that.

Does that mean only the namekians are around and all the other civilisations that Moro's absorbed are gone? Like all the people I mean?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:15 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:09 pm
But seriously, I can't be the only who did a 'What the fuck?' When I heard Esca say,"The Dragon balls must've kept their bodies preserved and stuff! That means those Moro didn't directly kill can come back!" I legit was confused as hell when I heard that.

Does that mean only the namekians are around and all the other civilisations that Moro's absorbed are gone? Like all the people I mean?

Yeah, I would have much prefered it if getting their energy back while their bodies were mostly intact restorted their bodies completely. And Namekians being slug like just dry up.

Thats my biggest gripe with this chapter and its not even that major.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:27 pm

Why has this part of the arc lifted so many story beats from Resurrection F? It's the weakest Dragon Ball story penned by Toriyama

The Z warriors on Earth fighting mooks while waiting for Goku and Vegeta to arrive - CHECK

The Z warriors having no way of opposing the main antagonist - CHECK

Goku arriving on the scene due to powering up on Earth so he could teleport there - CHECK

Goku facing off against the main antagonist but failing in the end - CHECK

Vegeta stepping in, having the main antagonist dead to rights but getting caught off guard and losing - CHECK

I swear to God the part with Moro on his knees and Vegeta about to obliterate him with his arm stretched out is straight from Resurrection F.

It doesn't make for good reading at all, it's so disappointing, if Toyotaro is going to copy previous work at least copy some of Toriyama's GOOD WORK.

But at least we have Super Perfect Moro now... I wonder how that will work out :yawn:

To be a bit positive I did like the fight between Vegeta and Moro before Moro escaped but I have gotten bored of the tradition where Vegeta gets a power up, lets the opponent attack him just to say "hmph that's all you have? *insert smirk*"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:39 pm

Also, why didnt Goku and Vegeta get their energy back? Moro Drained them. And with Vegeta Sending Energy back to who it belongs to, naturally Goku and His energy would be returned to them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:41 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:39 pm
Also, why didnt Goku and Vegeta get their energy back? Moro Drained them. And with Vegeta Sending Energy back to who it belongs to, naturally Goku and His energy would be returned to them.
Maybe they didn't completely drain Moro of his energy and he's still holding onto some of it. I was questioning why they didn't get it back given how Moro stole a good part of energy from them. Maybe when Moro dies all the energy that he's had within him will go back to where it came from.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:42 pm

Anyone else feel like we were robbed of a good Vegeta Vs. Moro Fight? like it's cool that he got straight to the point with Spirit Separation but wish he would have toyed with him a bit more

Goku got 3 chapters full of fighting (Saganbo and Moro) Vegeta only got Ch61

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheNingen » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:50 pm

I am genuinely envious of anyone who can actually feel enjoyment out of this arc. Really. I am. I am exhausted reading this arc just because of how little I care about anything going on. It's reaching fanfiction levels paralleling Super Dragon Ball Heroes now and I don't even know or care how it will end. I've just accepted the fact that Tori doesn't really care and Toyo can't write. He's writing as a fan fic writer first and a storyteller second.

To those who may make the argument: Why continue reading if you dislike it so much? And my answer is because I've been involved with Dragon Ball since I was 4. So with so much time and investment put in, it's the same reason I still read the Boruto manga while knowing its trash: Because I've spent so much time in the series and feel a psychological need to read to the end.

Vegeta's new power means nothing. Moro is basically Perfect Cell + King Piccolo. He wants to rule the galaxy and eat planets because reasons. At least Piccolo cared about his kin and children. Moro is just evil because reasons. And as many have said before, this arc is literally a retread of Resurrection F with plot points cherry picked from other arcs that we've seen executed better.

Also I cannot and will not see Vegeta's recent 'development' as anything but forced and not even genuine. Our last interaction with him was him being completely unfazed taking a life and having zero remorse for it. He just got out of a tournament where the only lives he seemed to have a problem with losing was those of the Saiyans of Universe 6. No matter how you try to dismiss it, he was fine letting literally millions die and stay gone so long as he won the tournament and used the Super Dragon Balls to revive Universe 6. That was always his plan. He stated as such. And he was still at the ready to kill Broly and think nothing of it.

Absolutely nobody can convince me that an evil goat spurs such emotion in Vegeta to want to atone for his sins but then be like 'Lol I'm still a villain, B."
The writing for Vegeta has been atrocious pandering trash that isn't believable in the slightest given his recent actions. But you know who it would've been infinitely better to include and would've been more in line with wanting to avenge the then deceased Namekians? Piccolo. If New Namek was going to be regurgitated as a battle location and plot point, it should have been Piccolo helping out. It should have been Piccolo learning this new power that Vegeta has. Piccolo has more reasons to care and be invested in this issue than Vegeta does. But nope... Let's just have Vegeta go the same way his battles have always gone. Point at himself, act cocky, and get fucked. Next thing you know it'll be Spirit Fission Ultra Instinct Gogeta vs Super Perfect Moro and that's when I'll have my aneurysm.

/Rant

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:18 am

DiscountDabi wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:39 pm
Also, why didnt Goku and Vegeta get their energy back? Moro Drained them. And with Vegeta Sending Energy back to who it belongs to, naturally Goku and His energy would be returned to them.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 am

Xeno Goku Black wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:13 pm
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:04 pm
That is subjective since I like the designs for Cali, Super Saiyan 2 Kale, Kelfa, Toppo (both normal and God of Destruction), Dypso, Zamasu, true form Frost, new Broly and his dad, and a lot more.
But only one of all those is an original design. Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are just Saiyans, Dyspo is a floppy eared Beerus, Zamasu is another Kai, Frost is another Frieza and Broly and Paragus are just reworked.

Actually no I forgot Magetta, that was a good original design too. However Botamo was weak, Ribrianne was weak, most of the Gods of Destruction were very disappointing, almost all of them poor, all the angels share the same visual aesthetic, Moro is just another animal as an enemy but now it's a goat, Seven-Three is just Hit and none of the other goons stood out.
Those are original designs. Designs don’t stop being original because the person is a human or a known alien, otherwise very few pieces of media would have ‘original designs’.

And what does being weak have to do with good design?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:45 am

TheNingen wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:50 pm
Also I cannot and will not see Vegeta's recent 'development' as anything but forced and not even genuine. Our last interaction with him was him being completely unfazed taking a life and having zero remorse for it. He just got out of a tournament where the only lives he seemed to have a problem with losing was those of the Saiyans of Universe 6. No matter how you try to dismiss it, he was fine letting literally millions die and stay gone so long as he won the tournament and used the Super Dragon Balls to revive Universe 6. That was always his plan. He stated as such. And he was still at the ready to kill Broly and think nothing of it.

Absolutely nobody can convince me that an evil goat spurs such emotion in Vegeta to want to atone for his sins but then be like 'Lol I'm still a villain, B."
The writing for Vegeta has been atrocious pandering trash that isn't believable in the slightest given his recent actions. But you know who it would've been infinitely better to include and would've been more in line with wanting to avenge the then deceased Namekians? Piccolo. If New Namek was going to be regurgitated as a battle location and plot point, it should have been Piccolo helping out. It should have been Piccolo learning this new power that Vegeta has. Piccolo has more reasons to care and be invested in this issue than Vegeta does. But nope... Let's just have Vegeta go the same way his battles have always gone. Point at himself, act cocky, and get fucked. Next thing you know it'll be Spirit Fission Ultra Instinct Gogeta vs Super Perfect Moro and that's when I'll have my aneurysm.

/Rant
Absolutely, and it's something I've said for months at this point. It comes off as Toyotarou trying to "fix" something that wasn't ever broken just so he can come out and say "well, Vegeta was always better than Goku this entire time!" despite the original series saying full well that wasn't the case. Between that and his sudden remorse for killing Namekians despite never dwelling on what he did in the 20 years that came before... the way it's been presented feels so far removed from Dragon Ball and more akin to something you'd see in a cape comic.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:51 am

Moro's fusion looks straight up Dragon Ball Heroes :lol: I hope this arc ends the manga until the next wave of Super

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:17 am

HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:22 pm
Michsi wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:19 pm
HeroR wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:12 pm


He had his father's soul, therefore all his sins. Piccolo even said he was King Piccolo.
We he IS King Piccolo as in he takes the title and the name. But his sins? Nah, then whats the point of reincarnation?
That is only if your soul is cleansed, which Piccolo skipped. Otherwise, you're just a devil spawn.

Yeah, but that would still be freaking unfair. He is his own person with him making his own decisions. The first person he killed (presumably) is Radditz and his soul went to the other world were as the people his father did didn't. He was kinda different from the start.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:21 am

This chapter was surely something...

I like Vegeta’s technique a lot, I really do, and I hope it will be used again in the future because I was waiting for such a technique to exist since forever, as I am sick of seeing fusions or villains absorbing stuff and getting stronger... as Moro did in this last chapter.
The technique is a 10/10 for me. It suits Vegeta and as expected it perfectly counters Moro.

But, let’s talk about the chapter’s shortcomings. First of all, what the heck was wrong with anyone being so negative while Vegeta was fighting Moro at the beginning? Even if Vegeta had been weaker, were they expecting him to give up?

And can Piccolo just shut the fuck up? I am sick of his commentary. Especially when he says stupid stuff like “Vegeta never misread an opponent”.
I don’t particularly care for the “Goku you changed Vegeta and have never changed since day one” thing, I think it’s fairly harmless and it seems to be in line with what Toriyama’s always said about Goku in his interviews. Still, I think this dialogue wasn’t needed and Piccolo’s exposition was way too long and not necessary considering Vegeta’s actions spoke by themselves.

About Vegeta saying he will go to Hell... I actually thought it was a cool moment. Of course he would think he will end up in there because he’s still committed mass murder. And that whole exchange with Moro was quite great.

And yes, Moro’s new design is lame. He’s now a generic Dragon Ball villain but looks more like the types of villains we see in GT or Heroes than what one would expect from Toriyama. Hopefully Vegeta will defuse him. I have no idea what Toyotaro was thinking when he came up with that trash design, I wonder if some higher-up forced him to redesign Moro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:24 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:57 pm
So, aside from the bullshit ending that predictably sets us up for Goku to take the real win after Vegeta deserved it...

I'm getting the sense in this chapter that the Super manga is gearing up to lead to an ending of sorts. Piccolo's whole speech, the stuff about Vegeta, it's giving me a major finale feel.
I don't think that will happen, otherwise they wouldn't have established Vegeta's ability to separate fused beings. This whole arc has been about Vegeta's redemption, with Moro's death being the key to that, as pointed out by Piccolo.

Same here, this may indeed lead into EOZ, with the new movie being the first story set after it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:29 am

emperior wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:21 am
This chapter was surely something...

I like Vegeta’s technique a lot, I really do, and I hope it will be used again in the future because I was waiting for such a technique to exist since forever, as I am sick of seeing fusions or villains absorbing stuff and getting stronger... as Moro did in this last chapter.
The technique is a 10/10 for me. It suits Vegeta and as expected it perfectly counters Moro.

But, let’s talk about the chapter’s shortcomings. First of all, what the heck was wrong with anyone being so negative while Vegeta was fighting Moro at the beginning? Even if Vegeta had been weaker, were they expecting him to give up?

And can Piccolo just shut the fuck up? I am sick of his commentary. Especially when he says stupid stuff like “Vegeta never misread an opponent”.
I don’t particularly care for the “Goku you changed Vegeta and have never changed since day one” thing, I think it’s fairly harmless and it seems to be in line with what Toriyama’s always said about Goku in his interviews. Still, I think this dialogue wasn’t needed and Piccolo’s exposition was way too long and not necessary considering Vegeta’s actions spoke by themselves.

About Vegeta saying he will go to Hell... I actually thought it was a cool moment. Of course he would think he will end up in there because he’s still committed mass murder. And that whole exchange with Moro was quite great.

And yes, Moro’s new design is lame. He’s now a generic Dragon Ball villain but looks more like the types of villains we see in GT or Heroes than what one would expect from Toriyama. Hopefully Vegeta will defuse him. I have no idea what Toyotaro was thinking when he came up with that trash design, I wonder if some higher-up forced him to redesign Moro.
I agree, like holy hell why is Piccolo talking about this? I wondered why he was still going on about this? Like have it be a sentence or two and then move on.

I mean, Vegeta killed millions-billions in his lifetime, him thinking he's going to hell would make perfect sense. It took until the middle-end of the Buu Saga for Vegeta to do a full-turn around and even then ,it took a long ass time with him dragging his feet as he did. I'd say Vegeta going to hell make perfect sense in that regard.

Moro's fusion design looks weird as hell. Like just look at it Emp, look at it. It just looks like Perfect Cell and Moro had a child together and that thing came out of it. The face is legit screaming Perfect Cell, and I can already tell 18,17 and Gohan are having flashbacks just looking at him.

I personally think the horns were the reason, I remember hearing Toyo complain about the horns when drawing Moro or someone else doing so. Though look at it, the design isn't awful but it just looks like Cell with Moro's horns and stuff.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:30 am

batistabus wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:34 pm
Don't get how the Namekians were preserved by the Dragon Balls. I'd prefer if the Namekians were able to retain their bodies due to their unique biology, like a dried out snail that rehydrates.
This would've been a better explanation than what happened. It's not hard to justify plot, so just going "I'unno, it is what it is" is both lazy and uncreative as heck. It's just disappointing.
Last edited by TKA on Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:30 am

emperior wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:21 am
About Vegeta saying he will go to Hell... I actually thought it was a cool moment. Of course he would think he will end up in there because he’s still committed mass murder.
He casually committed mass genocide for the first 30 years of his life, I'll add.

For a character who'd already expressed remorse for killing considerably fewer Earthlings at a tournament, I don't think this is something you just "get over". All this chapter did was address the elephant in the room.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:33 am

Noitsnothim wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:42 pm
Anyone else feel like we were robbed of a good Vegeta Vs. Moro Fight? Goku got 3 chapters full of fighting (Saganbo and Moro) Vegeta only got Ch61
It might be due to them planning on giving Vegeta the kill, making up for his shorter fight.
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:09 pm
But seriously, I can't be the only who did a 'What the fuck?' When I heard Esca say,"The Dragon balls must've kept their bodies preserved and stuff! That means those Moro didn't directly kill can come back!" I legit was confused as hell when I heard that.
Maybe he meant the dragon was summoned and asked to preserve their bodies.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:38 am

HeroR wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:41 am
Those are original designs. Designs don’t stop being original because the person is a human or a known alien, otherwise very few pieces of media would have ‘original designs’.
That's not original. Any random person here could come up with something like that. Take Frieza, make him a foot taller, make him white and black, give him a single horn and a cape and that'd be the equivalent of most these designs now.

Beerus was a cat, Botamo was a bear, Bergamo was a wolf, Moro was a goat....next have a red baboon, done.

That's how creative and original they are.
And what does being weak have to do with good design?
No not physically, it's a weak design, bad, poor, lame etc.

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