"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[emperior]

The arc’s incredibly slow and padded out for what I suppose are out-of-universe motives i.e. Toyotaro has been forced to make this as slow as possible while Shueisha, DB Room, Toei and Toriyama figure out what to do in the future especially regarding the true cash cow of the franchise which is its animated version, be it a TV show or theatrical releases.

Also it was quite obvious that Vegeta was going to learn something which hard counters Moro.
What’s nice is that this technique will probably have some future applications or will, at least, ensure that future foes won’t rely on absorbing other people’s energy as after Cell, Buu and Moro it’s gotten a bit boring.

This chapter was actually faster than I expected though. I think Toyotaro may be able to wrap the arc up in 3 to 4 more chapters, so maybe in October a new arc could begin as I doubt they will put the manga on hiatus. I hope the next arc will be written by Toriyama.

[Kinokima]

The Vegeta doesn’t misjudge opponents strength was a dumb line no matter how you interpret his many fights because he certainly isn’t known for NOT misjudging a situation. It was just a bad line no two ways about it. But people on twitter can make things worse then they are

The complete misunderstanding of the “I’m a villain scene” by half of Dragon Ball twitter was much worse though

[LoganForkHands73]

Complaining about the design of Moro is a bit odd considering that Dragon Ball as a whole hasn't really had a good original character design since Beerus and Whis except for maybe Hit.

My (subjective) complaints are less along the lines of "Moro's new design is bad" and more along the lines of "Moro's new design isn't as good as his old one".

There's just a lot less originality with this new form when you compare it to DB's other antagonists. It looks like a weird mix of Perfect Cell and Toyotaro's Sealas design from Heroes, but with horns.

Maybe it'll grow on me, but it's not my cup of tea right now. Can't fuck with it.

I personally only really liked Moro’s original design. So it’s gotten worse and worse to me

He just looked way more intimidating as the old man goat

Now he just looks way to generic

Fully agreed. His old design was so intimidating and unique. The way he was constantly hunchbacked but still towered over everyone made him feel like he was always poised to strike at any moment despite his frail appearance. I think it's funny that the younger Moro got, the more the story around him petered out.

[Lionel]

Not sure if anyone else has cited this yet but does Vegeta's remark to Piccolo about having the power to forcibly remove his fusion partners irk anyone else? I know it was intended to be a tongue in cheek jab to help reinforce the quality of this new technique but it still kind of drives home the reality of Piccolo's submission to Vegeta in recent years with little to none of the resolve we saw from him in arcs like Freeza and when Future Trunks first returned to the future after giving his warning.

I wish Piccolo could have countered with something along the lines of him knowing to use the Mafuba or something having to do with his own magic in the form of the materialisation power.

[emperior]

Vegeta has the power to sneeze Piccolo out of existence, the Namekian already knows how utterly outclassed he is and that’s why he was also forced out of the U6 Tournament by Vegeta.

He has no tool to fight Vegeta, so replying to that would have been just stupid.

[Michsi]

Not sure if anyone else has cited this yet but does Vegeta's remark to Piccolo about having the power to forcibly remove his fusion partners irk anyone else? I know it was intended to be a tongue in cheek jab to help reinforce the quality of this new technique but it still kind of drives home the reality of Piccolo's submission to Vegeta in recent years with little to none of the resolve we saw from him in arcs like Freeza and when Future Trunks first returned to the future after giving his warning.

I wish Piccolo could have countered with something along the lines of him knowing to use the Mafuba or something having to do with his own magic in the form of the materialisation power.

It didn't irk me, I actually liked it. But I'm not sure if it was a jab or a genuine offer communicated in a really cocky way.

Even if it was a joke, it fits with what Vegeta says later on in the chapter, how he dislikes fusion and this method of taking and relying on someone else's power. Given his mindset it's not odd that he'd want to take a jab at someone whose power depends on what he deems as an unsporting way of achieving it.
Piccolo not countering is also in character, because he is, on paper at least, the more mature one and doesn't need to rise to childish provocations.

But his " ! " reaction did make me wonder if we're supposed to think that he at was at least considering it. If we think about, Piccolo himself was never really thrilled with fusion either, he was just more practical than the saiyans.

[Akyon]

But his " ! " reaction did make me wonder if we're supposed to think that he at was at least considering it. If we think about, Piccolo himself was never really thrilled with fusion either, he was just more practical than the saiyans.

Maybe the "!" was Nail considering that he now has a possibility to go back and live with his brethren again on Namek.

For all the genuine narrative use he is to Piccolo's power at this point he might as well get a genuinely happy ending of his own.

[Kinokima]

Not sure if anyone else has cited this yet but does Vegeta's remark to Piccolo about having the power to forcibly remove his fusion partners irk anyone else? I know it was intended to be a tongue in cheek jab to help reinforce the quality of this new technique but it still kind of drives home the reality of Piccolo's submission to Vegeta in recent years with little to none of the resolve we saw from him in arcs like Freeza and when Future Trunks first returned to the future after giving his warning.

I wish Piccolo could have countered with something along the lines of him knowing to use the Mafuba or something having to do with his own magic in the form of the materialisation power.

It didn't irk me, I actually liked it. But I'm not sure if it was a jab or a genuine offer communicated in a really cocky way.

Even if it was a joke, it fits with what Vegeta says later on in the chapter, how he dislikes fusion and this method of taking and relying on someone else's power. Given his mindset it's not odd that he'd want to take a jab at someone whose power depends on what he deems as an unsporting way of achieving it.
Piccolo not countering is also in character, because he is, on paper at least, the more mature one and doesn't need to rise to childish provocations.

But his " ! " reaction did make me wonder if we're supposed to think that he at was at least considering it. If we think about, Piccolo himself was never really thrilled with fusion either, he was just more practical than the saiyans.

It’s the same with “I’m the more Talented than you” like to Goku. Certain fans get so mad at that line but Goku really doesn’t care at all

Goku isn’t worried about Vegeta doing something better than him at all because he knows he will one up Vegeta the next time.


And I also think in these cases Piccolo and Goku just know how Vegeta is. They’ve known him for years. It’s just just his personality quirk. It’s not something they are going to get angry about.


Edit: Bringing back Nail would kind of be cool. I am not really sure what purpose he would serve by being brought back but it might be neat to see him again.

[LoganForkHands73]

Toyotaro's artwork of Nail also says "his was possibly the greatest sacrifice". Maybe Toyo does want to give him a happy ending somehow? I mean, Piccolo would probably always keep Kami since they were originally part of the same being after all, but Nail still being buried in Piccolo's subconscious is still kind of an anomaly. He was just some near-dead stranger that Piccolo needed to power-up, but I wonder how the lack of Nail would affect Piccolo's current power?

[Michsi]

But his " ! " reaction did make me wonder if we're supposed to think that he at was at least considering it. If we think about, Piccolo himself was never really thrilled with fusion either, he was just more practical than the saiyans.

Maybe the "!" was Nail considering that he now has a possibility to go back and live with his brethren again on Namek.

For all the genuine narrative use he is to Piccolo's power at this point he might as well get a genuinely happy ending of his own.

As far as I know, Nail is not a conscious part of him. Nail straight up said he'd only serve as a power up and I guess some additional memories, but nothing more than that. If he is still in there, he is dormant. Only Kami has been shown to influence Piccolo's overall psyche.

It’s the same with “I’m the more Talented than you” like to Goku. Certain fans get so mad at that line but Goku really doesn’t care at all

Goku isn’t worried about Vegeta doing something better than him at all because he knows he will one up Vegeta the next time.


And I also think in these cases Piccolo and Goku just know how Vegeta is. They’ve known him for years. It’s just just his personality quirk. It’s not something they are going to get angry about.


Edit: Bringing back Nail would kind of be cool. I am not really sure what purpose he would serve by being brought back but it might be neat to see him again.

I'm a little more on the fence about that line. Vegeta boasting in that specific way was pretty regressive. Yes, Goku and Piccolo not caring when Vegeta is tooting his own horn is in character of them, but the problem was that Vegeta wasn't supposed to be someone that still does that so blatantly, at least when it comes to comparing his battle prowess to Goku's.

[Kinokima]

I'm a little more on the fence about that line. Vegeta boasting in that specific way was pretty regressive. Yes, Goku and Piccolo not caring when Vegeta is tooting his own horn is in character of them, but the problem was that Vegeta wasn't supposed to be someone that still does that so blatantly, at least when it comes to comparing his battle prowess to Goku's.

I don’t consider it a positive trait. I consider Vegeta’s arrogance a quirk or flaw of his. But I don’t really think it has anything to do with regressing. It’s just part of his personality. And is a consistent part at that. So it’s not like this is coming out of nowhere

He has moments where he can be humble too of course but that little arrogant streak is probably never going away.

I just think there is a big difference between him bragging a bit to Goku who he considers his rival or say letting Cell become perfect and putting everyone in danger because of his arrogance.

That’s why I am saying I don’t get why people get so mad at what’s basically a throw away line in the chapter. And I bring up Goku’s reaction because he seems to get Vegeta better then the audience does in my opinion.

[Mnich]

The most exciting thing in this chapter is a possibility to separate Buu and Grand Kaioshin in the (near) future. He would be a great addition to the Kaioshin and Elder Kaioshin.

[Psajdak]

The only thing that is genuine about this chapter is part where Goku says he will surpass Vegeta.

[Michsi]

I'm a little more on the fence about that line. Vegeta boasting in that specific way was pretty regressive. Yes, Goku and Piccolo not caring when Vegeta is tooting his own horn is in character of them, but the problem was that Vegeta wasn't supposed to be someone that still does that so blatantly, at least when it comes to comparing his battle prowess to Goku's.

I don’t consider it a positive trait. I consider Vegeta’s arrogance a quirk or flaw of his. But I don’t really think it has anything to do with regressing. It’s just part of his personality. And is a consistent part at that. So it’s not like this is coming out of nowhere

He has moments where he can be humble too of course but that little arrogant streak is probably never going away.

I just think there is a big difference between him bragging a bit to Goku who he considers his rival or say letting Cell become perfect and putting everyone in danger because of his arrogance.

That’s why I am saying I don’t get why people get so mad at what’s basically a throw away line in the chapter. And I bring up Goku’s reaction because he seems to get Vegeta better then the audience does in my opinion.

That he is and always will come across as arrogant is one thing, but there is a nuance to his demeanor here that is very reminiscent of his Cell arc persona which is definitely a phase he should've long grown out of.

You can still have him keep his cocky streak without needing him to pull out lines like that.

[Kinokima]

I'm a little more on the fence about that line. Vegeta boasting in that specific way was pretty regressive. Yes, Goku and Piccolo not caring when Vegeta is tooting his own horn is in character of them, but the problem was that Vegeta wasn't supposed to be someone that still does that so blatantly, at least when it comes to comparing his battle prowess to Goku's.

I don’t consider it a positive trait. I consider Vegeta’s arrogance a quirk or flaw of his. But I don’t really think it has anything to do with regressing. It’s just part of his personality. And is a consistent part at that. So it’s not like this is coming out of nowhere

He has moments where he can be humble too of course but that little arrogant streak is probably never going away.

I just think there is a big difference between him bragging a bit to Goku who he considers his rival or say letting Cell become perfect and putting everyone in danger because of his arrogance.

That’s why I am saying I don’t get why people get so mad at what’s basically a throw away line in the chapter. And I bring up Goku’s reaction because he seems to get Vegeta better then the audience does in my opinion.

That he is and always will come across as arrogant is one thing, but there is a nuance to his demeanor here that is very reminiscent of his Cell arc persona which is definitely a phase he should've long grown out of.

You can still have him keep his cocky streak without needing him to pull out lines like that.

While I am not a big fan of these moments I don’t consider it regression or anything like Cell arc Vegeta.

I think that is an overreaction personally. Cell arc Vegeta was cruel and didn’t really care about anyone but himself (well until the end) this is just some playful boasting on Vegeta’s part that doesn’t hurt anyone. It’s just him bragging a bit to his rival

[Gt91]

Not sure if anyone else has cited this yet but does Vegeta's remark to Piccolo about having the power to forcibly remove his fusion partners irk anyone else? I know it was intended to be a tongue in cheek jab to help reinforce the quality of this new technique but it still kind of drives home the reality of Piccolo's submission to Vegeta in recent years with little to none of the resolve we saw from him in arcs like Freeza and when Future Trunks first returned to the future after giving his warning.

I wish Piccolo could have countered with something along the lines of him knowing to use the Mafuba or something having to do with his own magic in the form of the materialisation power.

That was intriguing.
I would not mind to see nail again, maybe as a new powerfull character in the rooster.

[Zelvin]

Nail's purpose was just to facilitate their meeting Guru and to help Piccolo stall Freeza. That's it. Bringing him back serves no purpose. Bringing Kami back would serve no purpose either since they have Dende for the Dragonballs now and the role of dumping exposition has been left up to King Kai and Whis. Vegeta's comment was in poor taste and is certainly bad writing. Making this ability that broken is a detriment to the story. It means he can separate fusions whenever he wants. Kefla is no longer a challenge in future since Vegeta could literally just slap'er and *poof* fusion's over.

Then there's the horrible idea of trying to separate the Daikaio from Buu. For one thing there are TWO Supreme Kai's that Buu absorbed, so are we just gonna forget about the other one? Never mind the fact that the Daikaio makes up a significant portion of Buu's personality and behavior. If you removed them from Buu, then Buu just turns into a mindless creature eating whatever it wants as it would have no driving consciousness holding it back. It just becomes The Blob.

Given the concept of DBO and XV where Buu is the progenitor of a race of Majins, doing this would mean the Majin race never comes into being, and Hercule loses his best (and maybe only) friend. Way to go, you just made Dragon Ball depressing.

[LoganForkHands73]

Nail's purpose was just to facilitate their meeting Guru and to help Piccolo stall Freeza. That's it. Bringing him back serves no purpose. Bringing Kami back would serve no purpose either since they have Dende for the Dragonballs now and the role of dumping exposition has been left up to King Kai and Whis. Vegeta's comment was in poor taste and is certainly bad writing. Making this ability that broken is a detriment to the story. It means he can separate fusions whenever he wants. Kefla is no longer a challenge in future since Vegeta could literally just slap'er and *poof* fusion's over.

Then there's the horrible idea of trying to separate the Daikaio from Buu. For one thing there are TWO Supreme Kai's that Buu absorbed, so are we just gonna forget about the other one? Never mind the fact that the Daikaio makes up a significant portion of Buu's personality and behavior. If you removed them from Buu, then Buu just turns into a mindless creature eating whatever it wants as it would have no driving consciousness holding it back. It just becomes The Blob.

Given the concept of DBO and XV where Buu is the progenitor of a race of Majins, doing this would mean the Majin race never comes into being, and Hercule loses his best (and maybe only) friend. Way to go, you just made Dragon Ball depressing.

Like I said, I highly doubt Kami will come back in any capacity. There's no guarantee that Nail will come back either. We're probably picking this one throwaway interaction way too much.

Fusion has always been a busted ass-pull technique in all its variations - Namekian Fusion was never foreshadowed at all, Potara Fusion came out of nowhere simply because Toriyama didn't want to contradict Gogeta's movie design, even Buu's absorbing ability which caused him to become the fat blob we knew at the beginning was a late addition to the backstory to justify Kid Buu's existence. Normal Metamorran Fusion was the only one introduced somewhat organically and was originally the only one with a clear weakness in its time limit.

In any case, I don't see how it's bad writing to introduce a counter-fusion technique. I love Fusion but it's been used as a narrative, and more importantly marketing, gimmick or crutch in a lot of recent stories to the point where it's starting to feel a little overexposed, something I think that Toriyama understands better than the other writers. He understands that the series is about individual characters fighting, not about characters always having to fuse together like some kind of CCG gimmick. Frankly, I can't see it as anything but a good thing to see it brought down a peg. I don't see it as bad writing for Vegeta to boast about it to Piccolo, either. It just shows the breadth of potential his new ability has.

As for Buu and Daikaioshin, nothing about Buu really makes sense, so I'm sure they'd find a way around having Daikaio (and maybe South Kaioshin) ripped out of Buu somehow with no consequences. It would be quite shit writing, but it seems to be the main thing they're foreshadowing here.

[emperior]

By the way I have read some people criticizing how Goku was written this chapter, but in my opinion there was nothing wrong with his portrayal. He’s never seen himself as someone who changes people, even though he of course acknowledges it when someone changes, and it’s true that he’s still fundamentally the same person as always and that his only motive has, and will always be, to get stronger and fight the strongest people around.

But I do agree with those who say the dialogue was way too on the nose. Maybe it was done intentionally as they have been striving to make Goku’s character easier to understand considering some fans really do not get his character. It’s not the first time they have been on the nose in Super regarding Goku, as episodes 87 and 130 were too quite on the nose.

Still, I would say Goku’s portrayal in Super is not really out of character but he’s surely written worse than he was in the original manga. Unsurprisingly, Goku’s been written the best in the 3 movies. It still seems as if only Toriyama can really write him, other writers just either misunderstand him or oversimplify his personality, some times to the point of overexaggerating some of his traits.

[Grimlock]

Yeah, I forgot about that. Splitting Majin Buu and Dai Kaioshin would kind of contradict/affect Dragon Ball Online. So it's best to leave it as it is.

Still, Dai Kaioshin could temporarily take over Majin Buu's body or Majin Buu himself, guided by Dai Kaioshin's voice somehow, does what needs to be done.