"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Kinokima
I Live Here
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am

emperior wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:00 am By the way I have read some people criticizing how Goku was written this chapter, but in my opinion there was nothing wrong with his portrayal. He’s never seen himself as someone who changes people, even though he of course acknowledges it when someone changes, and it’s true that he’s still fundamentally the same person as always and that his only motive has, and will always be, to get stronger and fight the strongest people around.

But I do agree with those who say the dialogue was way too on the nose. Maybe it was done intentionally as they have been striving to make Goku’s character easier to understand considering some fans really do not get his character. It’s not the first time they have been on the nose in Super regarding Goku, as episodes 87 and 130 were too quite on the nose.

Still, I would say Goku’s portrayal in Super is not really out of character but he’s surely written worse than he was in the original manga. Unsurprisingly, Goku’s been written the best in the 3 movies. It still seems as if only Toriyama can really write him, other writers just either misunderstand him or oversimplify his personality, some times to the point of overexaggerating some of his traits.
Agreed! I don’t necessarily feel Goku was his best written this chapter. But most of the chapter it was just Piccolo and Goku gabbing about Vegeta and that entire scene felt like unnecessary padding. I don’t really think we needed Piccolo as a mouthpiece to explain to us once again that Vegeta changed


But I didn’t really mind Goku’s I just want to fight strong guys line. That is how Goku may see himself. But there is no denying that Goku has a positive influence on others. Not just Vegeta but Piccolo himself (and in Piccolo’s case also Goku’s son). Not to mention Goku has always been modest. He’s never going to agree it’s because of him. Goku isn’t one to give himself credit like that

I also don’t really agree with the narrative that Goku hasn’t changed at all. His change might not be as dramatic as characters like Piccolo and Vegeta but I think he did change throughout Dragon Ball. But I do think Goku is a character that changes others more then he himself changes. He is more of the force that brings these weird hodge podge of characters together. So Piccolo saying he doesn’t need to change to me isn’t necessarily negative but the whole thing could have been worded better. Or just left out since the whole exposition wasn’t really necessary.

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:47 am

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:01 amSplitting Majin Buu and Dai Kaioshin would kind of contradict/affect Dragon Ball Online. So it's best to leave it as it is.
If Toriyama was willing to step all over GT and Z's movies, I highly doubt he or anyone involved with the franchise cares about some game that never took off, or even remember its details for that matter. Buu and Dai being separated or not will have nothing to do with Online.

Block88
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:39 am Not gonna lie, I felt bad when Moro killed Shimorreka. I just felt bad. He didn't even betray Moro or anything, Moro just decided to kill him for the heck of it. I know he's evil, but I still felt bad seeing 7-3 legit looked shocked when he saw him get blasted.
I found it a bit funny but other than that I couldn’t care less about these mooks

User avatar
The Undying
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:05 pm

Kinokima wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:23 am I also don’t really agree with the narrative that Goku hasn’t changed at all.
I see it as another case of awkward wording on Piccolo's part. Goku has changed in subtle ways, but he's the same character at heart and never experienced the kind of massive, fundamental development other characters in DB received.

It's phrased inaccurately, but the spirit of what he's saying in context of their interaction is true. Piccolo just needs some rest. :lol:

With that said, I still vastly prefer the manga's portrayal of Goku over the anime's.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:06 pm

Moro just casually one-shotting that little pest for no reason was probably the funniest part of the chapter. Second has to go to Piccolo praising Vegeta for his great character growth, cut to Vegeta pounding a geriatric goat with a sadistic grin on his face.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8253
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:42 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:47 amIf Toriyama was willing to step all over GT and Z's movies,
Except those weren't "stepped over". Dragon Ball GT was always meant to be an anime-only sequel and the movies were always meant to be separated from the manga, with Toriyama himself establishing them in an alternate dimension. They are today what they always were: actual events happening somewhere else. Not the case with Dragon Ball Online, though.
Matches Malone wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:47 amI highly doubt he or anyone involved with the franchise cares about some game that never took off, or even remember its details for that matter.
That may or may not be true, but at least Toyotaro remembers it. Always keep in mind Yadorat's design, which is not his original design. They come from Dragon Ball Online.

Dimps also cares and remembers about it, thank goodness.
Matches Malone wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:47 amBuu and Dai being separated or not will have nothing to do with Online.
If they somehow manage to keep Majin Buu the same as he is after the split, yeah, it will have nothing to do. If they don't manage it, it might affect it.
Last edited by Grimlock on Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into.

~ Day of the Machines ~

User avatar
Zelvin
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 791
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: The Unknown Regions

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:43 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:40 am Like I said, I highly doubt Kami will come back in any capacity. There's no guarantee that Nail will come back either. We're probably picking this one throwaway interaction way too much.
If the line was never meant to mean anything or hint at anything, then it should never have been included.
Fusion has always been a busted ass-pull technique in all its variations - Namekian Fusion was never foreshadowed at all, Potara Fusion came out of nowhere simply because Toriyama didn't want to contradict Gogeta's movie design, even Buu's absorbing ability which caused him to become the fat blob we knew at the beginning was a late addition to the backstory to justify Kid Buu's existence. Normal Metamorran Fusion was the only one introduced somewhat organically and was originally the only one with a clear weakness in its time limit.
Namekian Fusion we can say has been hinted at given the fact Namekian's could Divide themselves in the way Kami did. And we can argue that the reason why it's Forbidden, as Nail says it is, because it's Permanent. It's not something that could or should ever be undone. That there is a cost for participating in it. As noted, Nail's persona would gradually fade into the back of Piccolo's consciousness and he'd effectively cease to exist.

Potara was certainly pulled out the butt, but by then they'd already told of the Metamorran Fusion so finding an easier way to do it was almost expected. But, as suggested originally, the caveat was that it could be permanent and thus the two fusing would no longer exist and the new persona would take over. It's only cleared up in Super that only Potara fusions with Gods are permanent. It's also a fact that Toriyama didn't want to do the Buu Saga and his editor kept having him make changes. Much like with how the Android Saga went.
In any case, I don't see how it's bad writing to introduce a counter-fusion technique. I love Fusion but it's been used as a narrative, and more importantly marketing, gimmick or crutch in a lot of recent stories to the point where it's starting to feel a little overexposed, something I think that Toriyama understands better than the other writers. He understands that the series is about individual characters fighting, not about characters always having to fuse together like some kind of CCG gimmick. Frankly, I can't see it as anything but a good thing to see it brought down a peg. I don't see it as bad writing for Vegeta to boast about it to Piccolo, either. It just shows the breadth of potential his new ability has.
Yes, Fusion is a huge thing for Marketing. Just look at DBFusions for that. But it also gives you creative ideas on how the Fusion would work and what abilities the new fusion would have. It's also a fact that a Fusion, outside of the Fusion Reborn movie, has never actually won the day. Vegitto 'beat' Buu, but was absorbed and the fusion came undone with Kid Buu ultimately being killed by Goku with support from everyone.

Even in the Future Trunks arc, Vegetto seemed to be winning, and then fusion came undone and everything went to shit. Kefla gets taken out by UI Sign Goku and Aniraza gets taken out by the U7 Team. You could make the argument that the only fusion to succeed is Gogeta. Gotenks loses all the damn time. So yeah, Gogeta is the only fusion that ever wins at anything.

I don't see this as a good thing because it completely eliminates all narrative tension. It would've been one thing if it was a technique to block or prevent Moro from draining and absorbing energy, but this eliminates any such future adversary that utilizes such an ability as being completely pointless since Vegeta can now just slap the stolen energy out of them or separate all the people they've absorbed/fused with. There goes any and all tension against such an opponent. Even with Morro eating Seven-Three, Vegeta can now just pull a SS2 Gohan on Perfect Cell, gut punch Morro and get him to spit up Seven-Three.

And there you have it. No more dramatic tension and all stakes completely disappear. All this does is ensure that all future enemies will not have such abilities, thus rendering Vegeta's technique completely superfluous in the future. Just fluff in a back catalogue of abilities that's no longer useful i the future. Ain't gonna work against Jiren, after all.
As for Buu and Daikaioshin, nothing about Buu really makes sense, so I'm sure they'd find a way around having Daikaio (and maybe South Kaioshin) ripped out of Buu somehow with no consequences. It would be quite shit writing, but it seems to be the main thing they're foreshadowing here.
It would completely destroy the character of Buu and render the Daikaioshin's sacrifice utterly meaningless, since the whole point of allowing himself to be absorbed was to weaken Buu and make him less of a threat since Buu's personality is affected by those he absorbs. If you took out the Daikaioshin and South Kai without having any consequences for doing so, it wouldn't just be terrible writing, it would show a complete lack of creativity or talent on the part of Toyotaro.

And this' my opinion, but unfortunately I don't view Toyotaro as having much creative talent at all, given how all of the ideas going into the manga have been stolen or 'borrowed' from various other shows and media and Dragon Ball's own history. He's brought nothing new to the table and the entire manga has been a bit of a clusterfuck. Some ideas were executed fine while others were just utter garbage.
PS3 Xenoverse Player
PS4 Xenoverse 2 Player
PSN ID: ReiKai_Onimusha
Main Character: Zelvin
Race: Frost Demon
"In space, no one can hear you scream. But you still make one ugly face."

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:41 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:42 pmIf they somehow manage to keep Majin Buu the same as he is after the split, yeah, it will have nothing to do.
Majin Buu as we know him was in EOZ, so if they split it clearly didn't change him.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8253
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm

Would you believe me if I said I also forgot about end of the manga? :oops:

So yeah... I think it's safe then, whatever they do to Majin Buu, won't affect the game. It should be noted that I was talking about his personality, not physical appearance. Since whatever Buu's image is, it wouldn't change that he will create a race. Only a change in personality could affect that.
Last edited by Grimlock on Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into.

~ Day of the Machines ~

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1364
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:22 pm

Zelvin wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:43 pm Namekian Fusion we can say has been hinted at given the fact Namekian's could Divide themselves in the way Kami did. And we can argue that the reason why it's Forbidden, as Nail says it is, because it's Permanent. It's not something that could or should ever be undone. That there is a cost for participating in it. As noted, Nail's persona would gradually fade into the back of Piccolo's consciousness and he'd effectively cease to exist.

Potara was certainly pulled out the butt, but by then they'd already told of the Metamorran Fusion so finding an easier way to do it was almost expected. But, as suggested originally, the caveat was that it could be permanent and thus the two fusing would no longer exist and the new persona would take over. It's only cleared up in Super that only Potara fusions with Gods are permanent. It's also a fact that Toriyama didn't want to do the Buu Saga and his editor kept having him make changes. Much like with how the Android Saga went.


Yes, Fusion is a huge thing for Marketing. Just look at DBFusions for that. But it also gives you creative ideas on how the Fusion would work and what abilities the new fusion would have. It's also a fact that a Fusion, outside of the Fusion Reborn movie, has never actually won the day. Vegitto 'beat' Buu, but was absorbed and the fusion came undone with Kid Buu ultimately being killed by Goku with support from everyone.

Even in the Future Trunks arc, Vegetto seemed to be winning, and then fusion came undone and everything went to shit. Kefla gets taken out by UI Sign Goku and Aniraza gets taken out by the U7 Team. You could make the argument that the only fusion to succeed is Gogeta. Gotenks loses all the damn time. So yeah, Gogeta is the only fusion that ever wins at anything.
True, but I wasn't really arguing that Fusion solves the plot or wins that many battles, but it's inclusion in so many arcs is usually to allow a character to survive longer or to quickly catch up in power (i.e. Piccolo) or to drag things out for fanservice, the latter being much more common with the Metamorran/Potara examples. I like to think Nail is buried deep in Piccolo's mind and has affected his personality in subtle ways and considering that New Namek was central to this arc, it would be a nice tidbit to see Nail reunite with his people. He may not have been much of a character but he went out fighting and had a pretty tragic fate, thinking he was the last of his kind aside from Piccolo and Dende.
I don't see this as a good thing because it completely eliminates all narrative tension. It would've been one thing if it was a technique to block or prevent Moro from draining and absorbing energy, but this eliminates any such future adversary that utilizes such an ability as being completely pointless since Vegeta can now just slap the stolen energy out of them or separate all the people they've absorbed/fused with. There goes any and all tension against such an opponent. Even with Morro eating Seven-Three, Vegeta can now just pull a SS2 Gohan on Perfect Cell, gut punch Morro and get him to spit up Seven-Three.

And there you have it. No more dramatic tension and all stakes completely disappear. All this does is ensure that all future enemies will not have such abilities, thus rendering Vegeta's technique completely superfluous in the future. Just fluff in a back catalogue of abilities that's no longer useful i the future. Ain't gonna work against Jiren, after all.
I think the simple answer to that is, don't have new villains that rely excessively on fusion and absorbing to get an edge. It's already been done to death. I'd like to see villains with new last resort techniques. With the Cell example, the tension was definitely not shattered by Gohan punching 18 out of him, as he still had another trick that, ya know, killed Goku. In the same vain, the introduction of ki blasts didn't ruin hand-to-hand combat in the series. Besides, we don't know how difficult it will be for Vegeta to defuse Moro 7-3, if that's even what will happen.

However, I too doubt that Vegeta's ability will have much relevance against future enemies - this whole arc has felt pretty desperate to not disturb the status quo too much. I hope I'm proven wrong.
It would completely destroy the character of Buu and render the Daikaioshin's sacrifice utterly meaningless, since the whole point of allowing himself to be absorbed was to weaken Buu and make him less of a threat since Buu's personality is affected by those he absorbs. If you took out the Daikaioshin and South Kai without having any consequences for doing so, it wouldn't just be terrible writing, it would show a complete lack of creativity or talent on the part of Toyotaro.
Well... there's a precedence for it :lol:

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm Would you believe me if I said I also forgot about end of the manga? :oops: I mean, just his head appears in it but still...
You mean he's not in it at all ? He's in the anime eating candy, which I thought was in the manga. If he's only on the cover page, then any change done here (which will probably be very small) won't contradict EOZ.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8253
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:30 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:26 pmYou mean he's not in it at all ? He's in the anime eating candy, which I thought was in the manga. If he's only on the cover page, then any change done here (which will probably be very small) won't contradict EOZ.
No, he is. That scene where Goku asks Majin Buu to switch numbers to fight Uub is in the manga too. It was another mistake from me. Another :oops:. Dunno what happened, I just completely forgot about it.

I apologize and you are right, it won't have anything to do with Dragon Ball Online indeed.
We help! ... Hmm. Always get Autobots out of messes they get into.

~ Day of the Machines ~

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4322
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:32 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:20 pm Would you believe me if I said I also forgot about end of the manga? :oops:

So yeah... I think it's safe then, whatever they do to Majin Buu, won't affect the game. It should be noted that I was talking about his personality, not physical appearance. Since whatever Buu's image is, it wouldn't change that he will create a race. Only a change in personality could affect that.
Buu will stay as he is, it’s been too long since he absorbed the Kaioshins so Spirit Fission can’t possibly do anything about that. It would be also pointless and create many problems while not even solving one.

By the way you took a wrong picture... it says Gohan married a vanilla ice cream :lol:
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

Matches Malone
Banned
Posts: 3308
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:41 pm

Grimlock wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:30 pmIt was another mistake from me. Another :oops:.
Don't worry about it, I can't remember what I had for dinner, and that was 10 minutes ago. :lol:
emperior wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:32 pmIt’s been too long since he absorbed the Kaioshins so Spirit Fission can’t possibly do anything about that.
Did they say anything about a time limit ? If not, then they could split them while allowing Buu to keep his current look, using time as an excuse to why he didn't change physically.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:38 pm

Mad Swami wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 am
Kagari wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:45 am
TheNingen wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:50 pm Also I cannot and will not see Vegeta's recent 'development' as anything but forced and not even genuine. Our last interaction with him was him being completely unfazed taking a life and having zero remorse for it. He just got out of a tournament where the only lives he seemed to have a problem with losing was those of the Saiyans of Universe 6. No matter how you try to dismiss it, he was fine letting literally millions die and stay gone so long as he won the tournament and used the Super Dragon Balls to revive Universe 6. That was always his plan. He stated as such. And he was still at the ready to kill Broly and think nothing of it.

Absolutely nobody can convince me that an evil goat spurs such emotion in Vegeta to want to atone for his sins but then be like 'Lol I'm still a villain, B."
The writing for Vegeta has been atrocious pandering trash that isn't believable in the slightest given his recent actions. But you know who it would've been infinitely better to include and would've been more in line with wanting to avenge the then deceased Namekians? Piccolo. If New Namek was going to be regurgitated as a battle location and plot point, it should have been Piccolo helping out. It should have been Piccolo learning this new power that Vegeta has. Piccolo has more reasons to care and be invested in this issue than Vegeta does. But nope... Let's just have Vegeta go the same way his battles have always gone. Point at himself, act cocky, and get fucked. Next thing you know it'll be Spirit Fission Ultra Instinct Gogeta vs Super Perfect Moro and that's when I'll have my aneurysm.

/Rant
Absolutely, and it's something I've said for months at this point. It comes off as Toyotarou trying to "fix" something that wasn't ever broken just so he can come out and say "well, Vegeta was always better than Goku this entire time!" despite the original series saying full well that wasn't the case. Between that and his sudden remorse for killing Namekians despite never dwelling on what he did in the 20 years that came before... the way it's been presented feels so far removed from Dragon Ball and more akin to something you'd see in a cape comic.
I really do agree that Vegeta in Super is the most overrated thing ever. However, the idea of him attempting to atone for sins isn't a bad one per se just it isn't executed great. However I wouldn't pin this issue solely on the Moro arc, I think him ready to kill Broly is an issue. Broly is a Saiyan with great power and clearly controlled by a malevolent force. Should have struck a chord with him. He is a different person and feeling guilty of his past is bound to happen. Especially when back then he flaunts his killing of the Namekians. I think him having guilt over this isn't bad personally. Piccolo should also have a stake in it because of it being his people. Hell have a Vegeta and Piccolo team up due to them both wishing to help and honor the Namekain people. I just think certain elements should have built to this better, however. In the T.O.P maybe have him start with U7 then U6 but over the course of the arc maybe he has interactions with people and decides that he should save them all. T.O.P could have been a really smooth transition to the more heroic Vegeta. However, as it is it's an underdeveloped good idea.
Thing is, the Future Trunks Saga in the anime did this better.

There, Trunks got see Vegeta as a better person and how Vegeta told Trunks off for being too focused on Black and he needed to think about future threats. Not just 'Daddy Vegeta and Uncle Goku will make everything better'. Vegeta was harsh, but his harshness had meaning. That and how he got on Trunks when he thought he abandoned his timeline, until Bulma told him off that Trunks only left to get help.

Then here was Black who Vegeta wanted to fight not because he looked like his rival, but because he hurt his son and his timeline. When Black mocked Vegeta about how their first battle ended with a hard lost for Vegeta and he wanted to avenge it, Vegeta told Black to shut up and he was fighting Black not because he lost a match, but because he wanted to save his son's world. Which Black acknowledge as sounding not like a Saiyan, which was the first time anyone in Super in-universe said anything about Vegeta's character changed.

That and Vegeta giving food to the survivors and trying to play it off as him just doing Bulma's requests, but you see the smile on his face when Trunks play with the kids.

Finally, we had Vegeta, without any fits, team up with Goku to fight Merged Zamasu, used the Garlic Gun with his son, and even take an energy blast for him. The only thing he bitched about was fusing.

So you can show Vegeta's growth as a character and even acknowledge it, without beating it over the head with the subtly of a semi-truck driving over a rocky road.


Also, it's kind of odd seeing Vegeta having such guilt about his pass deeds now when just over a year ago in Super's timeline Vegeta had no issue telling Cabba that the Saiyans stole a planet and when Cabba questioned him about it his response was 'it was natural since we're a warrior race'. No guilt, no self-reflection, just a matter-of-face statement that his race performed genocide and it was natural. Even Goku mentioning Vegeta trying to blow up the Earth is treated as a funny moment even in the Champa Saga like someone telling your mother that you got drunk one night and wet the bed.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:47 pm

emperior wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:55 am The arc’s incredibly slow and padded out for what I suppose are out-of-universe motives i.e. Toyotaro has been forced to make this as slow as possible while Shueisha, DB Room, Toei and Toriyama figure out what to do in the future especially regarding the true cash cow of the franchise which is its animated version, be it a TV show or theatrical releases.

Also it was quite obvious that Vegeta was going to learn something which hard counters Moro.
What’s nice is that this technique will probably have some future applications or will, at least, ensure that future foes won’t rely on absorbing other people’s energy as after Cell, Buu and Moro it’s gotten a bit boring.

This chapter was actually faster than I expected though. I think Toyotaro may be able to wrap the arc up in 3 to 4 more chapters, so maybe in October a new arc could begin as I doubt they will put the manga on hiatus. I hope the next arc will be written by Toriyama.
This is a lot of assumptions. And it's the same assumption that made people sure Toyo was rushing the TOP so he could adapt the Broly movie only for him to skip for this arc.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

Kinokima
I Live Here
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:01 pm

Vegeta doesn’t say it was natural that they conquered planets to Cabba. He does talk a little about Planet Vegeta’s history and then is quick to reassure Cabba that they don’t conquer planets anymore. So I would argue that shows he cared what Cabba thought.


Also yes the narrative never really dealt with Vegeta’s guilt about his past crimes before but that doesn’t mean he never thought of those things. I think that is a weak argument because we aren’t privy to everything he thinks. Dragon Ball rarely lets us get into the characters thought process much to begin with. And he has absolutely shown to be sorry for things such as killing the people in the stadium, or when he said sorry to Gohan after he thought Buu killed him.


I do think Vegeta thinking about his past is probably mainly coming from Toyo. I just can’t see Toriyama doing something introspective like that but I also don’t see it as a bad thing.

User avatar
MajinMan
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1236
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:42 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinMan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:22 pm

Moro really just swallowed 73 whole like that. That pretty much sums up the entire second half of this arc for me.
Heroes come and go, but legends are forever.

60.

Rest in peace.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:43 pm

If MUI does show up, its going to be under a high pressure situation where Moro gets Goku pissed. There needs to a trigger so someone dying is probably necessary. Whis says not to expect it, but this is dbs so I say MUI showing up is likely later in the fight.

Also, y'all notice how everyone Moro's killed onscreen are either his own henchmen or just helpless populations? Moro's yet to kill anyone close to our heros like others have.

Freeza killed: Krillin, Vegeta, almost everyone earth until Whis reversed it.
Cell: Future Trunks directly x2, Goku indirectly
Buu: Virtually everyone he ate, the others he absorbed into himself
Black: Attempted to kill Future Trunks numerous times, Killed Future Bulma, Goku, Chi Chi, Goten, presumably the rest of the z fighters in that timeline
Moro: no one yet. At best he killed the namekians, but that's not really something that should be flaunted.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 946
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:58 pm

HeroR wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:38 pm
Mad Swami wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:00 am
Kagari wrote: Fri Jun 19, 2020 12:45 am

Absolutely, and it's something I've said for months at this point. It comes off as Toyotarou trying to "fix" something that wasn't ever broken just so he can come out and say "well, Vegeta was always better than Goku this entire time!" despite the original series saying full well that wasn't the case. Between that and his sudden remorse for killing Namekians despite never dwelling on what he did in the 20 years that came before... the way it's been presented feels so far removed from Dragon Ball and more akin to something you'd see in a cape comic.
I really do agree that Vegeta in Super is the most overrated thing ever. However, the idea of him attempting to atone for sins isn't a bad one per se just it isn't executed great. However I wouldn't pin this issue solely on the Moro arc, I think him ready to kill Broly is an issue. Broly is a Saiyan with great power and clearly controlled by a malevolent force. Should have struck a chord with him. He is a different person and feeling guilty of his past is bound to happen. Especially when back then he flaunts his killing of the Namekians. I think him having guilt over this isn't bad personally. Piccolo should also have a stake in it because of it being his people. Hell have a Vegeta and Piccolo team up due to them both wishing to help and honor the Namekain people. I just think certain elements should have built to this better, however. In the T.O.P maybe have him start with U7 then U6 but over the course of the arc maybe he has interactions with people and decides that he should save them all. T.O.P could have been a really smooth transition to the more heroic Vegeta. However, as it is it's an underdeveloped good idea.
Thing is, the Future Trunks Saga in the anime did this better.

There, Trunks got see Vegeta as a better person and how Vegeta told Trunks off for being too focused on Black and he needed to think about future threats. Not just 'Daddy Vegeta and Uncle Goku will make everything better'. Vegeta was harsh, but his harshness had meaning. That and how he got on Trunks when he thought he abandoned his timeline, until Bulma told him off that Trunks only left to get help.

Then here was Black who Vegeta wanted to fight not because he looked like his rival, but because he hurt his son and his timeline. When Black mocked Vegeta about how their first battle ended with a hard lost for Vegeta and he wanted to avenge it, Vegeta told Black to shut up and he was fighting Black not because he lost a match, but because he wanted to save his son's world. Which Black acknowledge as sounding not like a Saiyan, which was the first time anyone in Super in-universe said anything about Vegeta's character changed.

That and Vegeta giving food to the survivors and trying to play it off as him just doing Bulma's requests, but you see the smile on his face when Trunks play with the kids.

Finally, we had Vegeta, without any fits, team up with Goku to fight Merged Zamasu, used the Garlic Gun with his son, and even take an energy blast for him. The only thing he bitched about was fusing.

So you can show Vegeta's growth as a character and even acknowledge it, without beating it over the head with the subtly of a semi-truck driving over a rocky road.


Also, it's kind of odd seeing Vegeta having such guilt about his pass deeds now when just over a year ago in Super's timeline Vegeta had no issue telling Cabba that the Saiyans stole a planet and when Cabba questioned him about it his response was 'it was natural since we're a warrior race'. No guilt, no self-reflection, just a matter-of-face statement that his race performed genocide and it was natural. Even Goku mentioning Vegeta trying to blow up the Earth is treated as a funny moment even in the Champa Saga like someone telling your mother that you got drunk one night and wet the bed.
I agree with what you're saying. My only point is I think regret for the past can work. Also, you bring up the attempt on the Earth, that's fair. However again what's the issue there the past Super arcs or the Moro arc? I think maybe the past ones. I think Vegeta overcoming regret is something that can be done. Just they should mention the people killed on Earth that were never revived, like the people of East city Nappa killed. I'm not saying you need to beat it over the viewer's head, but if you're going to do it maybe build-up to it better by showing glimpses of regret before the arc talks about it in length.

My only thing is the other arcs should have used opportunities to subtly hint towards his guilt. Maybe Goku mentioning the attack on Earth bothers Vegeta or as I said T.O.P could be used for him to show how he doesn't want innocents to just die. His character growth is decently shown off in the Black arc I just was more saying that other arcs should touch on the death of innocents on Vegeta's hand if one arc they wish that to be a heavy theme.

Also about the whole Tuffle Saiyan thing, why would he have any remorse for the Saiyans taking planet Plant. He wasn't around when it happened, and it was just in his race's nature. He isn't supporting it, just acknowledging it and being honest about it.

Post Reply