"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Mad Swami]

Is anyone else disappointed we haven't gotten a single arc that takes place in any other universe? Maybe they are saving it for EoZ so Uub can have a fresh adventure idk. I doubt the Dragonball manga and or anime is just going to end at EoZ. I really don't want it to go on forever however despite it being my most favorite franchise.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Is anyone else disappointed we haven't gotten a single arc that takes place in any other universe? Maybe they are saving it for EoZ so Uub can have a fresh adventure idk. I doubt the Dragonball manga and or anime is just going to end at EoZ. I really don't want it to go on forever however despite it being my most favorite franchise.

Sadala arc

At this point I'm just enjoying the Prison Planet, Universe Conflict and Universe Creation/Big Bang arcs more. As, they may be, the only way of getting fights in other universes.

[HeroR]

I really do agree that Vegeta in Super is the most overrated thing ever. However, the idea of him attempting to atone for sins isn't a bad one per se just it isn't executed great. However I wouldn't pin this issue solely on the Moro arc, I think him ready to kill Broly is an issue. Broly is a Saiyan with great power and clearly controlled by a malevolent force. Should have struck a chord with him. He is a different person and feeling guilty of his past is bound to happen. Especially when back then he flaunts his killing of the Namekians. I think him having guilt over this isn't bad personally. Piccolo should also have a stake in it because of it being his people. Hell have a Vegeta and Piccolo team up due to them both wishing to help and honor the Namekain people. I just think certain elements should have built to this better, however. In the T.O.P maybe have him start with U7 then U6 but over the course of the arc maybe he has interactions with people and decides that he should save them all. T.O.P could have been a really smooth transition to the more heroic Vegeta. However, as it is it's an underdeveloped good idea.

Thing is, the Future Trunks Saga in the anime did this better.

There, Trunks got see Vegeta as a better person and how Vegeta told Trunks off for being too focused on Black and he needed to think about future threats. Not just 'Daddy Vegeta and Uncle Goku will make everything better'. Vegeta was harsh, but his harshness had meaning. That and how he got on Trunks when he thought he abandoned his timeline, until Bulma told him off that Trunks only left to get help.

Then here was Black who Vegeta wanted to fight not because he looked like his rival, but because he hurt his son and his timeline. When Black mocked Vegeta about how their first battle ended with a hard lost for Vegeta and he wanted to avenge it, Vegeta told Black to shut up and he was fighting Black not because he lost a match, but because he wanted to save his son's world. Which Black acknowledge as sounding not like a Saiyan, which was the first time anyone in Super in-universe said anything about Vegeta's character changed.

That and Vegeta giving food to the survivors and trying to play it off as him just doing Bulma's requests, but you see the smile on his face when Trunks play with the kids.

Finally, we had Vegeta, without any fits, team up with Goku to fight Merged Zamasu, used the Garlic Gun with his son, and even take an energy blast for him. The only thing he bitched about was fusing.

So you can show Vegeta's growth as a character and even acknowledge it, without beating it over the head with the subtly of a semi-truck driving over a rocky road.


Also, it's kind of odd seeing Vegeta having such guilt about his pass deeds now when just over a year ago in Super's timeline Vegeta had no issue telling Cabba that the Saiyans stole a planet and when Cabba questioned him about it his response was 'it was natural since we're a warrior race'. No guilt, no self-reflection, just a matter-of-face statement that his race performed genocide and it was natural. Even Goku mentioning Vegeta trying to blow up the Earth is treated as a funny moment even in the Champa Saga like someone telling your mother that you got drunk one night and wet the bed.

I agree with what you're saying. My only point is I think regret for the past can work. Also, you bring up the attempt on the Earth, that's fair. However again what's the issue there the past Super arcs or the Moro arc? I think maybe the past ones. I think Vegeta overcoming regret is something that can be done. Just they should mention the people killed on Earth that were never revived, like the people of East city Nappa killed. I'm not saying you need to beat it over the viewer's head, but if you're going to do it maybe build-up to it better by showing glimpses of regret before the arc talks about it in length.

My only thing is the other arcs should have used opportunities to subtly hint towards his guilt. Maybe Goku mentioning the attack on Earth bothers Vegeta or as I said T.O.P could be used for him to show how he doesn't want innocents to just die. His character growth is decently shown off in the Black arc I just was more saying that other arcs should touch on the death of innocents on Vegeta's hand if one arc they wish that to be a heavy theme.

Also about the whole Tuffle Saiyan thing, why would he have any remorse for the Saiyans taking planet Plant. He wasn't around when it happened, and it was just in his race's nature. He isn't supporting it, just acknowledging it and being honest about it.

Vegeta actually said about stealing a planet, 'it's fine, the Saiyans are a warrior race'. He didn't have to feel remorse, but he did downplay what the Saiyans did as nature, to which Cabba replied, 'We're a warrior race, which is why we don't steal planets'.

And I agree if Toyo was going to do this arc with Vegeta self-reflecting you either a) needed to build up to it or b) have Moro be a direct reflection of what Vegeta used to be. Vegeta feeling guilty now and wanting to atone feel force and it was done much better in the Buu Saga for all that saga's flaws. Heck, Fusion Reborn did a better job. And Vegeta's connection to Moro is shallow. Like the only things they have in common was they were both evil, both wanted the Dragon Balls, and they both killed Namekians. And...that is where the similarities go. For all practical purposes, Moro is evil dude #110. Toyo needed to make Moro a foil or a shadow to Vegeta like how Freeza and Cell are to him.

[HeroR]

Vegeta doesn’t say it was natural that they conquered planets to Cabba. He does talk a little about Planet Vegeta’s history and then is quick to reassure Cabba that they don’t conquer planets anymore. So I would argue that shows he cared what Cabba thought.


Also yes the narrative never really dealt with Vegeta’s guilt about his past crimes before but that doesn’t mean he never thought of those things. I think that is a weak argument because we aren’t privy to everything he thinks. Dragon Ball rarely lets us get into the characters thought process much to begin with. And he has absolutely shown to be sorry for things such as killing the people in the stadium, or when he said sorry to Gohan after he thought Buu killed him.


I do think Vegeta thinking about his past is probably mainly coming from Toyo. I just can’t see Toriyama doing something introspective like that but I also don’t see it as a bad thing.

We don't need to see everything Vegeta thinks for him to show regret. The problem is that there was no buildup for it and it comes with extremely heavy handed. The Buu Saga is a great example of Vegeta showing regret for his past actions and wanting to make amends with clubbing us over the head with it and having real buildup for that moment.

[Mad Swami]

Thing is, the Future Trunks Saga in the anime did this better.

There, Trunks got see Vegeta as a better person and how Vegeta told Trunks off for being too focused on Black and he needed to think about future threats. Not just 'Daddy Vegeta and Uncle Goku will make everything better'. Vegeta was harsh, but his harshness had meaning. That and how he got on Trunks when he thought he abandoned his timeline, until Bulma told him off that Trunks only left to get help.

Then here was Black who Vegeta wanted to fight not because he looked like his rival, but because he hurt his son and his timeline. When Black mocked Vegeta about how their first battle ended with a hard lost for Vegeta and he wanted to avenge it, Vegeta told Black to shut up and he was fighting Black not because he lost a match, but because he wanted to save his son's world. Which Black acknowledge as sounding not like a Saiyan, which was the first time anyone in Super in-universe said anything about Vegeta's character changed.

That and Vegeta giving food to the survivors and trying to play it off as him just doing Bulma's requests, but you see the smile on his face when Trunks play with the kids.

Finally, we had Vegeta, without any fits, team up with Goku to fight Merged Zamasu, used the Garlic Gun with his son, and even take an energy blast for him. The only thing he bitched about was fusing.

So you can show Vegeta's growth as a character and even acknowledge it, without beating it over the head with the subtly of a semi-truck driving over a rocky road.


Also, it's kind of odd seeing Vegeta having such guilt about his pass deeds now when just over a year ago in Super's timeline Vegeta had no issue telling Cabba that the Saiyans stole a planet and when Cabba questioned him about it his response was 'it was natural since we're a warrior race'. No guilt, no self-reflection, just a matter-of-face statement that his race performed genocide and it was natural. Even Goku mentioning Vegeta trying to blow up the Earth is treated as a funny moment even in the Champa Saga like someone telling your mother that you got drunk one night and wet the bed.

I agree with what you're saying. My only point is I think regret for the past can work. Also, you bring up the attempt on the Earth, that's fair. However again what's the issue there the past Super arcs or the Moro arc? I think maybe the past ones. I think Vegeta overcoming regret is something that can be done. Just they should mention the people killed on Earth that were never revived, like the people of East city Nappa killed. I'm not saying you need to beat it over the viewer's head, but if you're going to do it maybe build-up to it better by showing glimpses of regret before the arc talks about it in length.

My only thing is the other arcs should have used opportunities to subtly hint towards his guilt. Maybe Goku mentioning the attack on Earth bothers Vegeta or as I said T.O.P could be used for him to show how he doesn't want innocents to just die. His character growth is decently shown off in the Black arc I just was more saying that other arcs should touch on the death of innocents on Vegeta's hand if one arc they wish that to be a heavy theme.

Also about the whole Tuffle Saiyan thing, why would he have any remorse for the Saiyans taking planet Plant. He wasn't around when it happened, and it was just in his race's nature. He isn't supporting it, just acknowledging it and being honest about it.

Vegeta actually said about stealing a planet, 'it's fine, the Saiyans are a warrior race'. He didn't have to feel remorse, but he did downplay what the Saiyans did as nature, to which Cabba replied, 'We're a warrior race, which is why we don't steal planets'.

And I agree if Toyo was going to do this arc with Vegeta self-reflecting you either a) needed to build up to it or b) have Moro be a direct reflection of what Vegeta used to be. Vegeta feeling guilty now and wanting to atone feel force and it was done much better in the Buu Saga for all that saga's flaws. Heck, Fusion Reborn did a better job. And Vegeta's connection to Moro is shallow. Like the only things they have in common was they were both evil, both wanted the Dragon Ball Super, and they both killed Namekians. And...that is where the similarities go. For all practical purposes, Moro is evil dude #110. Moro needed to make Moro a foil or a shadow to Vegeta like how Freeza and Cell are to him.

100% agree. Just wanted to exspress that I don't think the issue is the concept simply execution.

[Kagari]

And I agree if Toyo was going to do this arc with Vegeta self-reflecting you either a) needed to build up to it or b) have Moro be a direct reflection of what Vegeta used to be. Vegeta feeling guilty now and wanting to atone feel force and it was done much better in the Buu Saga for all that saga's flaws. Heck, Fusion Reborn did a better job. And Vegeta's connection to Moro is shallow. Like the only things they have in common was they were both evil, both wanted the Dragon Ball Super, and they both killed Namekians. And...that is where the similarities go. For all practical purposes, Moro is evil dude #110. Moro needed to make Moro a foil or a shadow to Vegeta like how Freeza and Cell are to him.

This is exactly why I don't understand why people are so obsessed with Vegeta beating Moro. For what? A check mark on a list? There's no story here.

[Kinokima]

Vegeta doesn’t say it was natural that they conquered planets to Cabba. He does talk a little about Planet Vegeta’s history and then is quick to reassure Cabba that they don’t conquer planets anymore. So I would argue that shows he cared what Cabba thought.


Also yes the narrative never really dealt with Vegeta’s guilt about his past crimes before but that doesn’t mean he never thought of those things. I think that is a weak argument because we aren’t privy to everything he thinks. Dragon Ball rarely lets us get into the characters thought process much to begin with. And he has absolutely shown to be sorry for things such as killing the people in the stadium, or when he said sorry to Gohan after he thought Buu killed him.


I do think Vegeta thinking about his past is probably mainly coming from Toyo. I just can’t see Toriyama doing something introspective like that but I also don’t see it as a bad thing.

We don't need to see everything Vegeta thinks for him to show regret. The problem is that there was no buildup for it and it comes with extremely heavy handed. The Buu Saga is a great example of Vegeta showing regret for his past actions and wanting to make amends with clubbing us over the head with it and having real buildup for that moment.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. Personally I am happy that Vegeta is finally thinking of his past mistakes.

These thoughts first came about on Namek where he did do something horrible (okay on old Namek not the new one but same idea). I don’t think it would be unreasonable that he would think of his past again and want to make amends for that

Honestly I’d even rather we have more than the few scenes that we did get but I’ll take what I can get.
.


Now I didn’t like Piccolo saying how much Vegeta changed in this chapter. I felt that was dumb. But I did like Vegeta judging himself harshly and still thinking he deserves to go to hell for his past crimes.

I also don’t really care if Vegeta beats Moro or not so that has nothing to do with my feelings. And besides Vegeta already restored the planets Moro ate including Planet Namek something he said he wanted to do early in the arc. So it’s not like this new technique accomplished nothing as I am seeing many fans state with disappointment. Thematically I think restoring things that Moro destroyed works better for Vegeta’s character than beating Moro. And I still expect Vegeta’s role in this arc isn’t over.

Bottom line I am not disappointed that he lost here, except maybe that It lead to Moro’s boring new design

[The Undying]

No build-up? No connection? Both of those were established from the beginning of the arc when Vegeta saw Moro mirror his past actions with his treatment of the Namekians and was utterly helpless to stop it.

When I said I didn't want Vegeta to get the win, I specifically clarified that I didn't want him to get a straightforward win. In other words, I didn't want him to just come down from Yardrat, hand Moro a delectable can of whoop-ass and then proceed to just kill him, and that's that. Thankfully that didn't happen; everyone, including Vegeta, is in a bind right now.

That doesn't mean I'm against Vegeta ultimately getting the win, though. This story has spent more time on Vegeta's role than any other character. It would be entirely fitting if he's the one to take down Moro when everything's said and done.

[Mad Swami]

And I agree if Toyo was going to do this arc with Vegeta self-reflecting you either a) needed to build up to it or b) have Moro be a direct reflection of what Vegeta used to be. Vegeta feeling guilty now and wanting to atone feel force and it was done much better in the Buu Saga for all that saga's flaws. Heck, Fusion Reborn did a better job. And Vegeta's connection to Moro is shallow. Like the only things they have in common was they were both evil, both wanted the Dragon Ball Super, and they both killed Namekians. And...that is where the similarities go. For all practical purposes, Moro is evil dude #110. Moro needed to make Moro a foil or a shadow to Vegeta like how Freeza and Cell are to him.

This is exactly why I don't understand why people are so obsessed with Vegeta beating Moro. For what? A check mark on a list? There's no story here.

Technically there is a story just not done well. They clearly want to do the whole facing his past and moving forward as someone better but they didn't do it well. However, the reason I want him to win is because he's the only one with any justifiable reason given the attention given to him.

[Kinokima]

No build-up? No connection? Both of those were established from the beginning of the arc when Vegeta saw Moro mirror his past actions with his treatment of the Namekians and was utterly helpless to stop it.

When I said I didn't want Vegeta to get the win, I specifically clarified that I didn't want him to get a straightforward win. In other words, I didn't want him to just come down from Yardrat, hand Moro a delectable can of whoop-ass and then proceed to just kill him, and that's that. Thankfully that didn't happen; everyone, including Vegeta, is in a bind right now.

That doesn't mean I'm against Vegeta ultimately getting the win, though. This story has spent more time on Vegeta's role than any other character. It would be entirely fitting if he's the one to take down Moro when everything's said and done.

Honestly I don’t really think Dragon Ball wins tend to come down to connection and who deserves them. In the last arc it was Freeza and 17 that won. How did they have a connection or deserve to win

That being said I will stick to what I said Vegeta beating Moro is not really all that important in the grand scheme of things. But both Vegeta fans and Vegeta haters seem to obsess over him never killing a main bad guy *shrugs*

Like I said in my last post Vegeta restoring things seems more attune to his growth and caring about his past then defeating Moro. I mean if he still does and it’s written well I’ll be cool with that too but I don’t think the arc is ruined or the story hates Vegeta If he doesn’t.

I do pray it’s not something like the Zeno plot twist though lol

[The Undying]

Honestly I don’t really think Dragon Ball wins tend to come down to connection and who deserves them.

To be clear, I'm open to a number of possibilities when it comes to Moro's defeat. My point is just that this particular possibility wouldn't be out of place - if anyone has a connection to Moro, it's Vegeta, so it would make sense if Vegeta is the one to deal the final blow. Depending on the execution, other victories could be just as satisfying.

The idea that Vegeta shouldn't get the W based on his "lack" of connection to Moro (which isn't even true) is a pretty concerning example of character bias. Nobody's role should be disregarded, especially if it was previously given some prominence in the story.

[GodVegetto91]

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising.

[HeroR]

No build-up? No connection? Both of those were established from the beginning of the arc when Vegeta saw Moro mirror his past actions with his treatment of the Namekians and was utterly helpless to stop it.

When I said I didn't want Vegeta to get the win, I specifically clarified that I didn't want him to get a straightforward win. In other words, I didn't want him to just come down from Yardrat, hand Moro a delectable can of whoop-ass and then proceed to just kill him, and that's that. Thankfully that didn't happen; everyone, including Vegeta, is in a bind right now.

That doesn't mean I'm against Vegeta ultimately getting the win, though. This story has spent more time on Vegeta's role than any other character. It would be entirely fitting if he's the one to take down Moro when everything's said and done.

And as I pointed out, the connection between Vegeta and Moro is extremely shallow. They have nothing in common outside of both being evil, wanting Dragon Balls to further their goal, and killing Namekians. That is literally all they have in common and that is a dime a dozen thing in Dragon Ball. He isn't a foil like Freeza or even Cell. He's just bad guy #110.

I mean, Freeza is literally everything Vegeta would have became if he got to rule the universe and Cell, especially Semi-Perfect, is Vegeta if he allowed his pride and ego completely ruled him. And going further with Freeza, they both held grudges against Goku for defeating them and devoted their lives trying to surpassed and kill him. The different being is that Vegeta learned to let go of the past and eventually find peace and happiness, while Freeza allowed his pride and spite towards Goku kill him twice, and the reason why he lost half his body and a planet exploded on him. It took him being revived a second time before he learned to backoff, but he still wants to kill Goku. He just isn't utterly obsessed with it.

[TKA]

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising.

Stuff like this is why I never lead with the fact that Vegeta is far and away my favorite character in all of fiction (Anakin Skywalker is second, and he's a VERY distant second). "Fans" tend to have this notion that characters "deserve" wins or big moments. As a fan of Vegeta, I'd rather see him do interesting things than see him get pointless moments or pointless wins, dawg.

But I don't find anything he's done in this arc particularly interesting or noteworthy.

[Mad Swami]

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising.

Stuff like this is why I never lead with the fact that Vegeta is far and away my favorite character in all of fiction (Anakin Skywalker is second, and he's a VERY distant second). "Fans" tend to have this notion that characters "deserve" wins or big moments. As a fan of Vegeta, I'd rather see him do interesting things than see him get pointless moments or pointless wins, dawg.

But I don't find anything he's done in this arc particularly interesting or noteworthy.

I think the only issue I might have with him jobbing again, is that it isn't interesting. It isn't really a result of any issue of his. I mean I guess Moro "struck a nerve" comparing the two, but it's not like Vegeta has recently been evil or killed anyone. My issue is just Vegeta lost because he isn't allowed to win yet. I don't think he needs the win honestly just he is the only one who deserves it due to the focus he's recived

[Mad Swami]

And I agree if Toyo was going to do this arc with Vegeta self-reflecting you either a) needed to build up to it or b) have Moro be a direct reflection of what Vegeta used to be. Vegeta feeling guilty now and wanting to atone feel force and it was done much better in the Buu Saga for all that saga's flaws. Heck, Fusion Reborn did a better job. And Vegeta's connection to Moro is shallow. Like the only things they have in common was they were both evil, both wanted the Dragon Ball Super, and they both killed Namekians. And...that is where the similarities go. For all practical purposes, Moro is evil dude #110. Moro needed to make Moro a foil or a shadow to Vegeta like how Freeza and Cell are to him.

This is exactly why I don't understand why people are so obsessed with Vegeta beating Moro. For what? A check mark on a list? There's no story here.

yep. That's all some people want. I think it'd be better if he deserved it but yeah that's it.

[GodVegetto91]

So Vegeta is going to job again. How surprising.

Stuff like this is why I never lead with the fact that Vegeta is far and away my favorite character in all of fiction (Anakin Skywalker is second, and he's a VERY distant second). "Fans" tend to have this notion that characters "deserve" wins or big moments. As a fan of Vegeta, I'd rather see him do interesting things than see him get pointless moments or pointless wins, dawg.

But I don't find anything he's done in this arc particularly interesting or noteworthy.

You do realize that there are over a DOZEN arcs in Dragon Ball right? Is it so hard to just ask for ONE (1) single Arc where he gets the main kill? Is that honestly too hard for Toriyama to allow? He must really hate Vegeta then if Goku and Gohan already have accomplished that. With Goku a whole lot more than once.

[Miracles]

Didn't like the chapter.

Vegeta's hyped up ability was a let down. Circular ability; Just absorbs those who absorbs.

Why in God's green earth would Toyo ruin Moro like that and use 7-3's face? I have connection with Moro and plan on seeing the Z warriros battle this evil being not some minion.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Didn't like the chapter.

Vegeta's hyped up ability was a let down. Circular ability; Just absorbs those who absorbs.

Why in God's green earth would Toyo ruin Moro like that and use 7-3's face? I have connection with Moro and plan on seeing the Z warriros battle this evil being not some minion.

Honestly he looks like Cell. I swear if he called himself Perfect Moro I'd kick someone. Granted how was Vegeta supposed to know Moro would be desperate enough to eat his minion and become more powerful, and when he tries to get close he gets knocked down bu the fused Moro.

Seriously, I feel like Moro is just a more composed and smarter version of Perfect Cell at this point, now just being even more psychopathic and having magic instead of being the 'perfect being'.

[Kinokima]

I don’t understand how Vegeta “jobbed”
this chapter. He lost ironically by Moro doing exactly what Vegeta accuses him of stealing from others or in this case literally eating one of his allies.

People never focus on the thematic bigger picture and only seem to care about the final win.