"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

It’s often said we are our harshest critic and that is what is happening here. It’s because Vegeta is good now that he thinks of these things.

I've noticed that the harder you are on yourself, the higher your chances of success are. I don't mean hard as in self hating, but in terms of expectations and criticisms. I definitely think Vegeta having this mindset now increases his chances of success here and in future arcs.

[Psajdak]

The way Vegeta talked in chapter 61, even to the likes of Moro, it really didn't felt like he was actually sorry about anything.

Which also makes me wonder, if he really dies again, and ends up in hell, will he also hang from a tree like Freeza, and be sorrounded by flowers, and fairies...

[Kinokima]

The way Vegeta talked in chapter 61, even to the likes of Moro, it really didn't felt like he was actually sorry about anything.

Which also makes me wonder, if he really dies again, and ends up in hell, will he also hang from a tree like Freeza, and be sorrounded by flowers, and fairies...

It’s kind of strange that you say he’s not sorry for what he did when Piccolo is literally explaining to the audience Vegeta’s thought process. I feel this was really unnecessary but I now wonder if it was since many people seem to not understand the hell & villain line even though the context was right there in the same chapter. He also expressed his guilt for what he did to the Namekians earlier in the arc.

The series isn’t really that complicated. Piccolo was pretty much a mouth piece for Toyo’s thoughts about Vegeta and he was also writing Vegeta in this chapter. Piccolo and Vegeta are not contradicting each other.

[theherodjl]

Is it just me or did anyone else imagine Moro speaking in Dameon Clarke's Cell voice after absorbing 7-3? Because I just can't help but feel like Moro's voice changed upon his appearance to justify the plagiarism influence from Cell that he is channeling.

[The Undying]

Not sure how I missed this post from Thursday, but I did:

Redemption literally means saving yourself from sin... and that happened for Vegeta.

No, that happened for other characters observing Vegeta.

You understand that other people believing Vegeta did enough to redeem himself doesn't mean Vegeta thinks that, right? You do realize Goku telling him that he was revived by Porunga because Porunga considered him good isn't just magically going to relieve any and all personal grievances, right?

That's not how redemption works. Vegeta didn't get baptized and automatically wash all of his problems away.

The problem is the lack of sincerity. I don't mind the idea of atonement, but it's far too fucking late for that.

The idea that it's ever "too late" to atone is insincere in itself, and completely misconstrues what atonement is.

Whatever Vegeta would have wished for at the Tournament of Power is irrelevant because he didn't win the Tournament of Power. The Namekians are brought up now because Vegeta's current dilemma involves the Namekians. It is story convenience, but there's nothing wrong with that.

That is not the kind of shit you would say when you want to criticise or scold someone or yourself.

Labelling himself a villain and saying he's going to hell is 100 steps backwards for his character. It flies right in the face of what happened during the Majin Boo arc and Battle Of Gods.

This is what I mean when I say there's a whole lot of "completely lacking perspective and misunderstanding Vegeta" going on here.

That is exactly the kind of shit you say when you've spent the first several decades of your life committing mass murder, becoming a better person, and already feeling guilt just from killing a tiny fraction of those previous genocides at a tournament. Those are exactly the burdens someone like Vegeta would carry. That's exactly not something that people simply get over.

Vegeta's self-assessment and Piccolo's exposition both spell this out. Vegeta being a good guy isn't equivalent to Vegeta personally thinking he's "good enough". That's a bold move for the character that just so happens to align with his philosophy on growth and self-improvement.

[HeroR]

Now you're arguing semantic.

My guy.

You literally just tried to pry apart three completely related aspects of a single parallel between two characters in an attempt to downplay them, despite all three of them distinctly contributing to a specific motive involving a specific action.

That is the epitome of splitting hairs.

If anything, this is actually more narratively involved than whatever you're trying to argue for Freeza or Cell, since stuff like "pride" and "ego" are generic descriptors that have nothing to do with specific story motives or even individual behaviors.

That's a massive stretch on both counts. You can think whatever you want about whether these characters have a connection, but it just doesn't seem like you're putting forth a convincing counterpoint here.

Vegeta killed humans like Freeza and Black when he went Majin and blew up a chuck of the stadium, so why are the Namekians' special. Do those humans he murdered don't count because he happened to wished them back?

This is a lot of word salad just to make a point that doesn't sound very coherent on its own.

The Earthlings counted in the Boo arc because of the context and circumstances. The Namekians count in the current arc because of the context and circumstances. Vegeta wanted to make amends for both. There's nothing more to it than that.

Really? Okay let me explain it again since you don’t get it despite others here seeing my point.

Vegeta has no real connection to Moro. He is relatable to Vegeta as much as Super Buu is related. Their connection is shallow outside of them killing Namekians.

In comparison, we have Freeza who is everything Vegeta would have become if he kept being the same person he was in the Saiyan Saga. If we replace Moro with Freeza, then Vegeta wanting to kill Freeza to makeup for past sins make sense giving their similars even if we ignore personal history. And using Freeza isn’t even that farfetched since Freeza came back in Resurrection ‘F’, yet Vegeta didn’t want to kill him to atone. He instead wanted to kill him because he blew up his planet. And Freeza is still alive expanding his empire, so why don’t Vegeta go out and kill Freeza both to stop his terror and atone?

Or let’s used Black. In the manga, Vegeta’s primary reason for fighting Black wasn’t to atone. He wanted to fight him because he had Goku’s face and even offered Black the chance to just leave despite all the stuff he did. Why wasn’t Vegeta thinking of using Black to atone for past misdeeds, especially with how he originally treated Future Trunks?

Does this explain things? Vegeta had at least two chances in Super to atone if that was his goal, but it’s literally never brought up, not even with Freeza despite all their parallels and past history. It’s only a thing now and it feels force since it only seemed to happened because Moro killed Namekians.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta had at least two chances in Super to atone if that was his goal, but it’s literally never brought up, It’s only a thing now and it feels force since it only seemed to happened because Moro killed Namekians.

Better late than never.

[obiwan23s]

Which also makes me wonder, if he really dies again, and ends up in hell, will he also hang from a tree like Freeza, and be sorrounded by flowers, and fairies...

I think that version of hell is tailored to Freeza, Vegeta's hell would almost certainly be losing to Goku for eternity.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I honestly feel bad for the Z fighters, especially Gohan, Piccolo and the androids. Goku's tired and Vegeta is unconscious. Considered how Empowered Saganbo was wrecking them even with a combined effort, all I see is someone dying. Moro is going to effortlessly curbstomp them until either Vegeta wakes up or Goku gets UI or MUI sometime in the fight.

[Psajdak]

I think that version of hell is tailored to Freeza, Vegeta's hell would almost certainly be losing to Goku for eternity.

What about the whole soul purification, memory erasure, reincarmation thing?

[Peach]

Is it just me or did anyone else imagine Moro speaking in Dameon Clarke's Cell voice after absorbing 7-3? Because I just can't help but feel like Moro's voice changed upon his appearance to justify the plagiarism influence from Cell that he is channeling.

I picture him being voiced by Jamieson Price.

Who you might know as Sojiro in Persona 5, Tobirama in Naruto, or the Spiral King in Gurren Lagann.

[Matches Malone]

I honestly feel bad for the Z fighters, especially Gohan, Piccolo and the androids. Goku's tired and Vegeta is unconscious. Considered how Empowered Saganbo was wrecking them even with a combined effort, all I see is someone dying. Moro is going to effortlessly curbstomp them until either Vegeta wakes up or Goku gets UI or MUI sometime in the fight.

Vegeta still has (potentially) 2 more techniques up his sleeve, being able to separate fused beings, and maybe even healing himself. While Moro is busy slapping around the Z fighters, he's very unlikely to pay attention to Vegeta, as he believes he's finished. In terms of anyone dying, I don't know who it could be that would leave an impact on us. Considering how bad Piccolo's "death" was handled during the RF arc, is anyone going to care if it's him ? Gohan is just a waste of space, so killing him would be doing everyone a favor. Goku isn't going anywhere, so he's ruled out.

[The Undying]

Okay let me explain it again since you don’t get despite others here seeing my point.

I saw your point the first time. I'm saying it's a weak argument.

Moro killing Namekians for the Dragon Balls is significant not just because it reminds Vegeta of his past atrocities, it shoves his own powerlessness in his face after being in a position to defend them and failing to do so. That's what facilitates Vegeta's growth in this story arc, and that's why the issue is relevant now rather than some point earlier in Super.

This is a parallel that ties into the narrative.

Freeza being "what Vegeta would become if Vegeta was still evil" is largely an inferred connection, isn't mentioned in the story, doesn't facilitate the development of the characters or plot, and isn't even thematically relevant to the conflict in the Freeza arc.

This is a parallel that doesn't tie into the narrative.

Do you see the difference? Connecting protagonists with antagonists isn't some competition on how many things people have in common, it's a way to mature the characters and progress the story's themes. That's just it.

This is why I say it feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when your point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

[Matches Malone]

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

[Grimlock]

Buu will stay as he is, it’s been too long since he absorbed the Kaioshins so Spirit Fission can’t possibly do anything about that. It would be also pointless and create many problems while not even solving one.

But hasn't been too long since Piccolo merged with Kami and Nail as well? If Vegeta feels he can split them, I think he would be able to do the same with Majin Buu.

By the way you took a wrong picture... it says Gohan married a vanilla ice cream

Damn, I grabbed the first one I found on Google without taking a full look at it.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I honestly feel bad for the Z fighters, especially Gohan, Piccolo and the androids. Goku's tired and Vegeta is unconscious. Considered how Empowered Saganbo was wrecking them even with a combined effort, all I see is someone dying. Moro is going to effortlessly curbstomp them until either Vegeta wakes up or Goku gets UI or MUI sometime in the fight.

Vegeta still has (potentially) 2 more techniques up his sleeve, being able to separate fused beings, and maybe even healing himself. While Moro is busy slapping around the Z fighters, he's very unlikely to pay attention to Vegeta, as he believes he's finished. In terms of anyone dying, I don't know who it could be that would leave an impact on us. Considering how bad Piccolo's "death" was handled during the RF arc, is anyone going to care if it's him ? Gohan is just a waste of space, so killing him would be doing everyone a favor. Goku isn't going anywhere, so he's ruled out.

I dunno, seeing how Moro is, I wouldn't be shocked if he tried to grab Vegeta's neck just for the sake of his abilities. Even if he doesn't, until Goku pulls something up his sleeve and Vegeta decides to get up the rest of the Z fighters are screwed. Stalling for time will be a massive pain in the ass and they'll probably get wiped off the map trying.

Gohan isn't a waste of space, I mean how is he supposed to compete with his father and Vegeta, who are legit walking powerhouses? He's still one of the strongest fighters, its just that when Goku and Vegeta arrive Gohan looks less than them by a large margin. I'd say Moro kills Gohan or Gohan purposefully kills himself in hopes something will happen to trigger Goku in the most dire situation considering that how UI and MUI tend to work.

If Gohan does die, I kinda hope with Moro's demonic origins that means Gohan cannot be revived by normal means.

[DiscountDabi]

I just want to say something. At what point did that call 7-3 an Android? Because I’m pretty they never did. They said he was an artificial lifeform, and judging by how his body can change based on what he copies, he seems more like Baby than an android. Also he doesn’t have infinite energy like 17 and 18. He has infinite stamina, they made sure to specify that (which is contradicted when Gohan and Piccolo Tire him out a few chapters later)

[Kagari]

Now you're arguing semantic.

My guy.

You literally just tried to pry apart three completely related aspects of a single parallel between two characters in an attempt to downplay them, despite all three of them distinctly contributing to a specific motive involving a specific action.

That is the epitome of splitting hairs.

If anything, this is actually more narratively involved than whatever you're trying to argue for Freeza or Cell, since stuff like "pride" and "ego" are generic descriptors that have nothing to do with specific story motives or even individual behaviors.

That's a massive stretch on both counts. You can think whatever you want about whether these characters have a connection, but it just doesn't seem like you're putting forth a convincing counterpoint here.

Vegeta killed humans like Freeza and Black when he went Majin and blew up a chuck of the stadium, so why are the Namekians' special. Do those humans he murdered don't count because he happened to wished them back?

This is a lot of word salad just to make a point that doesn't sound very coherent on its own.

The Earthlings counted in the Boo arc because of the context and circumstances. The Namekians count in the current arc because of the context and circumstances. Vegeta wanted to make amends for both. There's nothing more to it than that.

Really? Okay let me explain it again since you don’t get it despite others here seeing my point.

Vegeta has no real connection to Moro. He is relatable to Vegeta as much as Super Buu is related. Their connection is shallow outside of them killing Namekians.

In comparison, we have Freeza who is everything Vegeta would have become if he kept being the same person he was in the Saiyan Saga. If we replace Moro with Freeza, then Vegeta wanting to kill Freeza to makeup for past sins make sense giving their similars even if we ignore personal history. And using Freeza isn’t even that farfetched since Freeza came back in Resurrection ‘F’, yet Vegeta didn’t want to kill him to atone. He instead wanted to kill him because he blew up his planet. And Freeza is still alive expanding his empire, so why don’t Vegeta go out and kill Freeza both to stop his terror and atone?

Or let’s used Black. In the manga, Vegeta’s primary reason for fighting Black wasn’t to atone. He wanted to fight him because he had Goku’s face and even offered Black the chance to just leave despite all the stuff he did. Why wasn’t Vegeta thinking of using Black to atone for past misdeeds, especially with how he originally treated Future Trunks?

Does this explain things? Vegeta had at least two chances in Super to atone if that was his goal, but it’s literally never brought up, not even with Freeza despite all their parallels and past history. It’s only a thing now and it feels force since it only seemed to happened because Moro killed Namekians.

It was never brought up because that's just not how DB works. Toriyama's characters tend to not hold past actions as baggage so it's no wonder that, in the stories Toriyama provided outlines for, this type of thing wasn't brought up. There was no need for it to be. It just stinks of Toyotarou trying to address the killing of the Namekian village because it wasn't in the original run, forcing it into "development" while forgetting who Vegeta is as a person.

[HeroR]

Okay let me explain it again since you don’t get despite others here seeing my point.

I saw your point the first time. I'm saying it's a weak argument.

Moro killing Namekians for the Dragon Balls is significant not just because it reminds him of his past transgressions, it shoves his own powerlessness in his face after being in a position to defend them and failing to do so. That's what facilitates Vegeta's growth in this story arc, and that's why the issue is relevant now rather than some point earlier in Super.

This is a parallel that ties into the narrative.

Freeza being "what Vegeta would become if Vegeta was still evil" is largely an inferred connection, isn't mentioned in the story, doesn't facilitate the development of the characters or plot, and isn't even thematically relevant to the conflict in the Freeza arc.

This is a parallel that doesn't tie into the narrative.

Do you see the difference? Connecting protagonists with antagonists isn't some competition on how many things people have in common, it's a way to mature the characters and progress the story's themes. That's just it.

This is why I say it feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Not seeing how this point is weak since have several enemies before Moro that somehow didn't provoke Vegeta to go on a redemption quest, and one of those enemies was Freeza.

Here's the problem. Vegeta has been powerless before to stop an evil, namely Black who killed all of humanity without Vegeta being able to stop and then later Zeno erasing that universe from existence. Yet, that somehow didn't leave a strong enough impact.

Not really since it's pretty blatant. Both are royalty of their families, both are talented prodigies born into greatness, both killed people for personal gain, both wanting the Dragon Balls to live forever and rule the universe and murdered a bunch of Namekians to get it, both seem calm and cool when things go their way, but turn into crazy loons when they're behind with both trying to destroy the planet they were on after they were losing (Vegeta being far more nuts here since he can't even breathe in space like Freeza), both became obsessed with surpassing/killing Goku for very similar reasons. Freeza for Goku defeating, humiliating, and even sparing his life, and Vegeta for Goku being low level trash that surpassed him and be giving mercy. Both allowed their quest to get back at Goku destroy their lives, Frieza with coming to Earth twice and getting killed, and Vegeta for selling his soul to a wizard and would have gone to hell for his actions even with his sacrifice.

I mean, the above is so obvious that do you really need the story to outright tell you about these parallels to have any meaning? I guess because Toyo is as subtly as truck you don't see this as counting, but Toriyama more or less admitting to inventing Freeza as a worst Vegeta to redeemed him. Even more then that, Denda said that Vegeta was just like Freeza after he demanded to be healed.

It kinda does if we're going to make a big deal out of 'Vegeta is making up for past sins' this big thing. If this was something that was better foreshadowed or built-up like Buu Saga, then sure. Vegeta having a personal connection isn't really needed since Buu and Vegeta also have little in common, but the redemption arc worked since the Buu Saga was all Vegeta's issues reaching a head. There is no such buildup in this arc. It's all so surface level and artificial. Like, why wasn't Vegeta wanting to be redeemed by some metic never bought up with Freeza returned (he wanted to kill him because he blew up his planet and before then was fine with Goku fighting him until his stamina tanked) or Black (destroying his son's world like he did in the past, but instead wanting to fight Black because he had Goku's face). There is no buildup, there is this is all Vegeta's character development coming to a head like the Buu Saga, it's 'Moro killed Namekians and want the Dragon Balls'. Well that's nice, so did Freeza, but no one seems to care about that anymore.

Disagree with my point. Fine, we don't have to agree. But saying I'm 'grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all' is just annoying when I gave an example of a story arc where Vegeta didn't have a personal connection to the villain and it was done way better then this for the reasons I named, and I'm not even the only one saying stuff like this.

And this comes off as more bonkers when Freeza is alive in Super. He's alive killing people and expanding his empire like Moro, yet no one gives a damn. Not even Vegeta who seems happy to bitch about Freeza being alive and blaming Goku for it when it was Whis who brought him back under Beerus' orders, but not willing to do anything about it. Which in terms make Moro and Vegeta feeling the need to used him as redemption feel even more artificial. I guess you can argued it's because Moro is more of a threat than Freeza, but even that rings hollow when Vegeta freely admits in Broly that he was afraid of Freeza becoming more powerful to the point of being able to defeat them based on the progressed he made in Resurrection 'F'. So Vegeta sees Freeza as a threat that will only get bigger the longer he's alive, yet he sits and does nothing.

And this is why I don't buy this redemption point with Moro. It doesn't have the buildup of the Buu Saga, and Moro himself is a thin connection when you have Freeza alive and kicking causing trouble, but Vegeta never felt the need to find and kill Freeza to both makeup for his past with Freeza, but also to rid the universe of a threat that will only grow stronger according to Vegeta himself. The point is that Moro doesn't exist in a vacuum, so you can't just ignore these other points and say 'they aren't part of this particular story, so they don't count'.

[YamiGoku]

I don't know why people are acting like Vegeta's technique is useless from here-on or moving forward to future arcs. Did y'all not pay attention during Vegeta's training on Yardrat? It can take the energy out of anyone. It can even remove the energy from a group of people at one time.

It's not useless against non-fusion or non-absorption opponents. It's very likely that the technique would've changed the game in fights against Frieza, Jiren, or Broly as well.

As a non-english speaker, I thought I got something wrong reading the manga because I saw people complaining that Vegeta new technique was too specific to Moro, but from my understanding he can drain anyone and not just Moro.

It feels like you're grasping at straws to make a point when the point doesn't concern the actual plot at all.

Of all the things to complain about in regards to modern DB, this isn't one of them. If anything, more fans should be happy that we've finally gotten an arc that focuses on developing one of the main characters, something that's been lacking in modern DB.

This.