"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

A scene which isn't in either continuity of Super. And regardless, it's still sad that the most development Vegeta has gotten until now is a one-off joke in a movie that predates the series when he's the second-most prominent character in Super.

In the anime retelling, Vegeta still threw away his pride because he humbled himself before Beerus even when Beerus directly insulted him and called his race cowards. That included being on his knees giving Beerus food with his head down and begging Beerus not to hurt Bulma. Stuff that would have been impossible for old Vegeta.

[MCDaveG]

Oh god, oh man, oh god, oh man... Vegeta was great and I was wishimg for transformation... I really didn’t like the fighting snatching robot at all and now he is de facto the main villain with his rudiculous design. And we are back to square one, plus the ability to snatch techniques. I want this arc to end already, please. It feels more like the Multiverse fanmanga.

[Kinokima]

Of all the truly heinous crimes Vegeta committed most were committed off screen before we even knew the character.

There were two that weren’t. Majin Vegeta killing the people in the Stadium. That he specifically showed guilt for and made sure the wish to Porunga was worded in a way so they would come back.

The other really horrible thing Vegeta did was slaughter an entire Namekian village. While we can assume they were wished back eventually too I am not sure that was ever clarified. And in the series when they wished back everyone killed by Freeza, Vegeta mocks the situation since he is the reason those Namekians did not come back.


Personally I wish they had Vegeta reflect on his past before this arc. And as I said before it’s still not enough for me. There are a lot of things I wished they focused on in Dragon Ball that never get mentioned. That’s usually what fanfiction is for. So I could argue even though we were never privy to Vegeta thinking about his past that doesn’t mean he never did.


So no I don’t think it’s out of character or strange of Vegeta to think about the crimes he committed in the past when he comes face to face with a villain who attacked the same Namekians he brutally slaughtered before. Why this arc? Why now? Maybe because this is something Toyo wanted to explore and he didn’t have the opportunity in other arcs. Sometimes other plot elements get in the way of things you want to do and you have to push them aside for later. All you have to do is read manga-ka’s side notes and you will find this is often the case.


However I don’t think Vegeta seeking redemption is contingent on him beating Moro. I don’t think there is anything wrong with him beating Moro if that does end up being the case (it’s only one possibility out of many and I still doubt things will end that neatly) but it’s not really that important in the grand scheme of things. If Vegeta now wants to fight to save others because of his past then he is doing that whether he is the one to beat Moro or not.

[Psajdak]

People often forget that most Saiyans were, even without Freeza, murderers by their very nature.

The whole point about them being such beings was to make Goku seem like a special case in comparison.

[Matches Malone]

Why this arc? Why now? Maybe because this is something Toyo wanted to explore and he didn’t have the opportunity in other arcs.

I don’t think Vegeta seeking redemption is contingent on him beating Moro.

That's exactly why it's only happening now. It'd be out of place during the 2 tournaments, and Broly and Trunks' stories focused mostly on them, so this was the only real chance he got at writing such a story.

I agree, but that's not how Piccolo sees it. He thinks Vegeta can only accept redemption through taking Moro down, and with Vegeta being the only one to have a personal connection with him (unlike Goku and the Dai Kaio who just looked at him as the next bad guy), I can't see anyone else taking him down.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Vegeta had development in Battle of the Gods when he shed his pride. Goku even compliments him on this.

This is true, but this arc is showing there's still plenty to do with his character.

If Gohan or someone else important is killed by Moro, and if Moro being a demonic being is true, them not being able to be revived would make sense. As long as this arc doesn't go,"Merus intervenes" I think I'll be fine if they kill a few people off.

Considering how Vegeta focused this arc is, I think it's safe to say the next one will be Goku focused, so what better way to focus on Goku than with him trying to bring his son back ?

Vegeta developed in the Future Trunks Saga.

Vegeta has gotten small pieces of development in each arc, the difference is that none of those arcs were his. This arc on the other hand from the very start was all about him, and continues to be so.

At least in that case if Gohan dies and Goku decides to go on a quest to revive him, I don't have to hear the "Goku doesn't give a damn about his family." Even though he lost his shit at Goku Black when Black slaughtered them in a flashback and seemed more angered over them dying then the fact he stole his body.

[The Undying]

Vegeta has been powerless before to stop an evil, namely Black who killed all of humanity without Vegeta being able to stop and then later Zeno erasing that universe from existence.

False equivalence.

Vegeta not only failed to stop Black and Zeno, he had no way of fixing things for Trunks' timeline; it was actually convenient time shenanigans that allowed Trunks and Mai to continue living in an alternate reality. Vegeta gets to make things right in the current arc specifically because his unique circumstances allow it.

That's why this "too little too late" argument consistently falls short. It doesn't mean anything. Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now because Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now. It actually is that simple.

I mean, the above is so obvious that do you really need the story to outright tell you about these parallels to have any meaning?

That's not what I said. Those parallels have no meaning because none of them instigated Vegeta's role, growth, or goals in that specific story.

The one parallel between Vegeta and Moro has meaning because it's the entire crux of Vegeta's motivation in the current arc.

That's how storytelling works. Character chemistry isn't some checklist of how many things people have in common. That's all very shallow and meaningless. It's also a problem in most fanfiction.

If this was something that was better foreshadowed or built-up like Buu Saga, then sure.

Again, no build-up? No foreshadowing?

Are we reading the same manga?

The Boo arc itself foreshadows this. In the Boo arc, Vegeta not only explicitly expressed remorse about killing Earthlings as Majin Vegeta, he went one step further and fixed the problem through his instructions to Dende. What we're seeing here isn't even slightly out of line with how Vegeta was originally portrayed. His self-guilt over former atrocities is nothing new, nor was it implied to have just gone away.

You don't have to like his progression here. That's fine. It is a fairly risky one. But what the Super manga did in this arc was a natural extension of his previous growth, fits with his current outlook on improvement, offers a unique sense of introspection from Vegeta that we only seldomly get, and demonstrates how much further he's willing to go to redeem himself. I'd say that's a pretty solid angle to take for an arc that clearly strives to put him at the forefront.

[Matches Malone]

At least in that case if Gohan dies and Goku decides to go on a quest to revive him, I don't have to hear the "Goku doesn't give a damn about his family."

I think Goku at this point needs an arc that completely focuses on him as a character, and one that isn't afraid to look at him on a deeper level. When you look at this arc for example, Goku is just here because he's the main character, you can easily remove him and nothing changes. This is why I don't understand why so many Vegeta fans are saying he's going to take Moro down, as there's been 0 build up to that, and even less chemistry between the 2. Sure he'll play a role in his downfall, but I just can't see Vegeta not being the one to get the ultimate victory, as that's what everything's been building up to.

Unlike other characters who get pieces of development here and there, Goku is mostly stagnant. I want an arc that has Goku front and center of everything, where he's the one changing, he's the one forming a connection with the villain, etc. Having Gohan die (which I doubt will happen) is exactly the kind of thing that can be used to push Goku forward as a character. When he and the others face off against whoever the next big bad is, he won't be fighting to test his limits, it'll be to bring his son back. There'll be actual risks involved for him personally.

[Matches Malone]

That's why this "too little too late" argument consistently falls short. It doesn't mean anything. Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now because Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now. It actually is that simple.

This. Some fans are thinking waaaaay too much about this. The reason Vegeta is acting this way now is because this is the first time he's been put in such a situation. It wouldn't make sense for him to think about his past crimes during either of the tournaments, or while fighting Broly. It's also worth noting that the ideas of Vegeta fighting for the Namakians and feeling bad for his previous actions were established during the arc's 2nd or 3rd chapter, so why is it an issue now ? This has been the premise of the arc since day 1, what we're seeing now is just everything coming full circle.

I honestly don't understand this fan base, as this arc has gone out of its way to fix a lot of issues the community has had with Super, yet people are still complaining. As someone who's complained once or twice (more like 100 times) about Super, this arc has completely redeemed it for me (unless they somehow give it the worst ending in fiction), and I really hope things will continue to go down this road.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Moro's new form looks godawful. Like some really bad fanfiction. Wtf was toyotaro thinking?

[Grand Marshal 1]

Ngl I'm just bored of seeing Hit's face everywhere...DBS or not. Hit, 7-3, Sealas and someone I'm forgetting rn all share the same face smh.

At this point, I see Ultimate Godslayer Hearts and Ultra Pinich as good designs (okay Ultra Pinich not that much still).

Ozotto is def one of the unknown characters that can enter the stage as a major enemy. And he doesn't look that bad.

[theherodjl]

Moro's new form looks godawful. Like some really bad fanfiction. Wtf was toyotaro thinking?

Considering that Toyotaro used to be a fanfic writer, it shouldn't be too surprising. Toriyama either decided to give Toyotaro a lot more creative freedom for this arc or is just running low on gas creatively. It could possibly be a case of a little bit of column A and column B at this point.

[Matches Malone]

I'm just bored of seeing Hit's face everywhere...DBS or not. Hit, 7-3, Sealas and someone I'm forgetting rn all share the same face smh.

Hit's face is now the gold standard of which all anime designs are judged. Soon every anime/manga will have multiple characters looking like Hit.

Speaking of Hit, does anyone think the "real" Hit is still hiding somewhere in the tournament of power's world of void ?

[Noitsnothim]

Ngl I'm just bored of seeing Hit's face everywhere...DBS or not. Hit, 7-3, Sealas and someone I'm forgetting rn all share the same face smh.

At this point, I see Ultimate Godslayer Hearts and Ultra Pinich as good designs (okay Ultra Pinich not that much still).

Ozotto is def one of the unknown characters that can enter the stage as a major enemy. And he doesn't look that bad.

Inb4 they come out and say Ozotto inspired Moro's origins (both are planet eaters) if they were to bring Majin Ozotto into the mainline story of DB it should be for a 'Super' Movie but that'd already be two planet eaters in different stories and fans would draw comparisons. I really like what they're doing with him in heroes it's neat that he's scouting fighters with unique powers and abilities to use for a secret agenda of his (he's really evil and sneaky) has more persona than Moro too

[HeroR]

Vegeta has been powerless before to stop an evil, namely Black who killed all of humanity without Vegeta being able to stop and then later Zeno erasing that universe from existence.

False equivalence.

Vegeta not only failed to stop Black and Zeno, he had no way of fixing things for Trunks' timeline; it was actually convenient time shenanigans that allowed Trunks and Mai to continue living in an alternate reality. Vegeta gets to make things right in the current arc specifically because his unique circumstances allow it.

That's why this "too little too late" argument consistently falls short. It doesn't mean anything. Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now because Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now. It actually is that simple.

I mean, the above is so obvious that do you really need the story to outright tell you about these parallels to have any meaning?

That's not what I said. Those parallels have no meaning because none of them instigated Vegeta's role, growth, or goals in that specific story.

The one parallel between Vegeta and Moro has meaning because it's the entire crux of Vegeta's motivation in the current arc.

That's how storytelling works. Character chemistry isn't some checklist of how many things people have in common. That's all very shallow and meaningless. It's also a problem in most fanfiction.

If this was something that was better foreshadowed or built-up like Buu Saga, then sure.

Again, no build-up? No foreshadowing?

Are we reading the same manga?

The Boo arc itself foreshadows this. In the Boo arc, Vegeta not only explicitly expressed remorse about killing Earthlings as Majin Vegeta, he went one step further and fixed the problem through his instructions to Dende. What we're seeing here isn't even slightly out of line with how Vegeta was originally portrayed. His self-guilt over former atrocities is nothing new, nor was it implied to have just gone away.

You don't have to like his progression here. That's fine. It is a fairly risky one. But what the Super manga did in this arc was a natural extension of his previous growth, fits with his current outlook on improvement, offers a unique sense of introspection from Vegeta that we only seldomly get, and demonstrates how much further he's willing to go to redeem himself. I'd say that's a pretty solid angle to take for an arc that clearly strives to put him at the forefront.

How is it false equivalence?

In both cases he couldn't stop the bad guy. Him not being able to fixed everything isn't really the point and undermines what Vegeta was trying to do. Even if Future Trunks' world was broken beyond saving, it was still something Vegeta clearly wanted to save. Otherwise, he would have told Trunks to give up on that world and moved in with him.

Too little too late is still better than doing nothing.

It does have meaning with Vegeta's growth since he's showing everyone that he isn't like Freeza anymore. Moro's parallels only works in a vacuum. This isn't about a check list. It's about if you're going to do a grand redemption arc after someone already fought several bad people, you need to give a meaningful reason why this bad guy in particular is the spark of redemption when the other bad guys weren't.

The Buu Saga was built off the events of everything Vegeta was since he was introduced in the Saiyan Saga. We see this when see that Vegeta has settled down and seemed happy, although grumpy. Then he learned his rival is coming back for a day and sees this as his very last chance to prove that he was better. This day get interrupted by god and an evil wizard and he's pissed. He goes along with trying to save the world purely so he can get his final fight with his rival. Through the process, he found out said rival was still stronger than him and if they fought, he would just lose. So, he decided to sell his soul so he can finally best his rival and prove that his #1 in the universe. He also sold his soul became he came to the conclusion that he was so weak because he lost his evil edge and life on Earth had made him weak shit. So after gaining his new found power, he eggs his rival to fight him by blowing up the audience, where his own wife is in. After a long drawn out fight, he realized that a) their fight awoken the demon they were warned about b) the demon is way more powerful than he thought, and c) despite enjoying the power, he bonds he made on Earth were stronger. So, he knocks out his rival and wants to make amends for all the BS he cause, then he dies.

After he dies, he finds out that he died for nothing and the demon was still alive killing. He's only kept from going to hell because he's useful. When he does returns, he's good for nothing but fusion fodder and learned in the afterlife the his rival pitied him so much that he hid his true power from him. And as a final kick in the teeth known as his pride, he can't beat any form of Buu and had to finally admit that his rival was simply better than him.

Buu had no personal connection to Vegeta, but his existence and how Vegeta was responsible for Buu returning was the final spark needed for Vegeta's full redemption that started way back on Namek when he was crying to Goku to beat Freeza. This works because of all that buildup coming to a head and this arc has none of that. It's trying to add to what the Buu Saga did with Vegeta with no understanding why the Buu Saga redemption of Vegeta works outside of him blowing himself up.

I would say this arc is a movie version of a better book, but it isn't even that. It's a poor man's sequel.

[Matches Malone]

If they were to bring Majin Ozotto into the mainline story of DB it should be for a 'Super' Movie.

Toriyama would probably bring just about anyone into "canon" other than Ozotto. His design is just something I can't see Toriyama ever using, regardless of how many fans and officials ask him to. Speaking of the mainline story, with Moro wrapping up soon (seemingly), where does everyone think the story will go next ? This arc has very little, if any nostalgic elements (so far), so I can see them doing something more familiar, maybe with Freeza, or reintroducing Cooler into the story.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Ngl I'm just bored of seeing Hit's face everywhere...DBS or not. Hit, 7-3, Sealas and someone I'm forgetting rn all share the same face smh.

At this point, I see Ultimate Godslayer Hearts and Ultra Pinich as good designs (okay Ultra Pinich not that much still).

Ozotto is def one of the unknown characters that can enter the stage as a major enemy. And he doesn't look that bad.

Inb4 they come out and say Ozotto inspired Moro's origins (both are planet eaters) if they were to bring Majin Ozotto into the mainline story of DB it should be for a 'Super' Movie but that'd already be two planet eaters in different stories and fans would draw comparisons. I really like what they're doing with him in heroes it's neat that he's scouting fighters with unique powers and abilities to use for a secret agenda of his (he's really evil and sneaky) has more persona than Moro too

Agreed. And that's why I made a comment about that in the corresponding thread. You are not wrong tho. Planet Eaters. I didn't draw that conclusion before.

I'm just bored of seeing Hit's face everywhere...DBS or not. Hit, 7-3, Sealas and someone I'm forgetting rn all share the same face smh.

Hit's face is now the gold standard of which all anime designs are judged. Soon every anime/manga will have multiple characters looking like Hit.

Speaking of Hit, does anyone think the "real" Hit is still hiding somewhere in the tournament of power's world of void ?

Recipe for success apparently. Hit's face that is...

I'm sure on of Hit's clones is still in the leftovers of the ToP stage and he manipulates the Grand Priest, who will go evil and Yamoshi will eventually return to defeat Cold's third lost son, who is aided by a Majin Janemba from another time line.

[Grand Marshal 1]

If they were to bring Majin Ozotto into the mainline story of DB it should be for a 'Super' Movie.

Toriyama would probably bring just about anyone into "canon" other than Ozotto. His design is just something I can't see Toriyama ever using, regardless of how many fans and officials ask him to. Speaking of the mainline story, with Moro wrapping up soon (seemingly), where does everyone think the story will go next ? This arc has very little, if any nostalgic elements (so far), so I can see them doing something more familiar, maybe with Freeza, or reintroducing Cooler into the story.

Probs. I mean I hope so. I'm not rly sure what would satisfy me at this point as I am a heavy SDBH hitter and I want Hearts and Mechikaboola more than anything, but forget that.

Cooler being canonized will either anger fans (not new content, we just had Broly, "I wanted Hirudegarn") or it will take us by surprise. I doubt that he will be like his old self. His story should drastically change. Ofc Broly's did too, but I just feel like Cooler needs a bit more polishing, given his potential lore-wise (Broly was pretty much an addition, Cooler should play a huge part in the lore established).

If we venture into new territory, let it be a Sadala arc, with a new enemy to the saiyans there. (Baby and Hatchiyak are like Cooler in this instance, so I will not propose for their appearance even if they could work well).

[Koitsukai]

I liked this chapter.

It used up every panel in favour of action. Geet's technique was predicted by us a long time ago, sure, but I don't think anyone thought the stolen power could go back to the original source. That was cool and unexpected. So unexpected that Toyo didn't even bother to fix the namekians corpses back when the arc was on Namek. That whole thing really tarnishes the whole deal.
Clearly is being written on the spot, but it could've been explained /retconned better. Those bodies were rotting for at least 2 months.

Vegeta's atonement has no issues with me. We can't tell what Geets dreams about at night? we don't know just how at peace he is with himself, or if he is still haunted by the shit he's done for decades. Sure, there was no need for this, because it was touched in the original run, but it really isn't a problem to delve on the matter.

Moro getting sent back to his old self was great, the thief getting robbed and stripped of all of his belongings. Although I don't think old Moro should've lasted at all against a post Yadrat SSBE Vegeta. Like, wasn't he a match for Buu, and on Namek trashed by SSG? SSBE Vegeta was decking FP Moro, his old self should be so outclassed no way he could escape death.

Moro had little going on for him, his looks were the best thing he had. Toyo just took that away from him. He looks like those crappy, made up SDBH enemies, at least he has no glasses like Hearts. There was no need for him to go all Hit-like after eating that guy, it could've been like Super Perfect Cell just being perfect without 18. I'm a little disappointed by how 73 ended up serving the plot. I thought he was saving him so 73 could lend him a hand or something, maybe a 2 v 2. He could've just eaten him when the androids stomped him, he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy that is satisfied with his power.
Also, is it really a fusion? he fucking ate the guy. I don't fuse with a cow after dinner nor my face looks like one. Don't know why the had to change the best thing about Moro.

All in all, nice chapter, and I don't think Vegeta jobbed at all. What did people expect? the arc to be done this week?

[HeroR]

That's why this "too little too late" argument consistently falls short. It doesn't mean anything. Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now because Vegeta has a chance to atone for the Namekians now. It actually is that simple.

This. Some fans are thinking waaaaay too much about this. The reason Vegeta is acting this way now is because this is the first time he's been put in such a situation. It wouldn't make sense for him to think about his past crimes during either of the tournaments, or while fighting Broly. It's also worth noting that the ideas of Vegeta fighting for the Namakians and feeling bad for his previous actions were established during the arc's 2nd or 3rd chapter, so why is it an issue now ? This has been the premise of the arc since day 1, what we're seeing now is just everything coming full circle.

I honestly don't understand this fan base, as this arc has gone out of its way to fix a lot of issues the community has had with Super, yet people are still complaining. As someone who's complained once or twice (more like 100 times) about Super, this arc has completely redeemed it for me (unless they somehow give it the worst ending in fiction), and I really hope things will continue to go down this road.

That's good for you, but honestly this arc hasn't really done anything with Vegeta that wasn't already done decades ago. And this isn't the first time he has been put in this kind of situation. Resurrection 'F' did happened and he was confronted by the man who not only blew up his race, but also is basically everything he hates about his past self. Yet, in that moment, Vegeta treated Freeza, depending on what version you go by, a new toy to play with or that annoying guy that came back to life. Saying that it only triggers now with Namekians, which honestly only one of the many races Vegeta murdered over the years, is meh. It's a poor sequel to a far better story that also had its own issues because it doesn't understand what made the original work like Force Awakening to New Hope.

That and a lot of the community didn't have issues with Super's Vegeta since he was generally agreed to be one of the best written characters. Most of the issues the community had with Super, and this even everyone but just the most commonly seen complaints, was the usage of characters (which this arc didn't really fixed since it just redid Resurrection 'F' and Buu is right back asleep again after such promising buildup earlier), Goku's characterization (which this arc made worse since it double down on Goku is a meat head who wins by brute force that Toyo has been pushing since the TOP), underage of the multiverse (which this arc pretends doesn't existence outside of the angels), Beerus doing nothing (and Beerus is still doing nothing despite an evil goat eating his universe like a bag of potato chips and he was already on the chopping block for his poor mortal rating), arcs not really connecting to each other (this arc so far is very disconnected from most of Super and is extremely standalone) lack of consequences (and this arc double down on that with Gohan saying go ahead go crazy, we have Dragon Balls), along with little development from the rest of the cast (which Vegeta never really fall into since people agreed that his characterization in Super has been great and what they want is for him to win a fight with a major villain).

So while this arc fixed a lot of issues for you, it doesn't addressed a lot the most common complaints I have seen with Super over the years outside of having a new evil villain outside of Black/Zamasu, which Moro is admittedly is. Villains who aren't power base like Jiren and Broly. Moro started as that before he ate several dozen planets and became a generic bruiser, which is why people are disappointed with Moro. More open lore and stuff in space, which this arc did have before he retold Namek and went right back to Earth. Wanting Super to be more like Z. This arc does that since it's basically Z's greatest hits.