"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:04 pm

Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:41 pm
Ziegander wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:18 pm But seriously, no one else thinks it's the height of stupidity for Moro to even get a power boost like this from 7-3? I'm the only one that has a problem with him becoming so much stronger just from eating an android that's maybe ssj3 tier?

He claims to have reclaimed the height of his power, that he had stored a copy of that power level, a power level stronger than he was when he was going toe to toe with Omen UI Goku a minute ago, and beat him. When did he store that kind of power in 7-3?

And he gets this strong and just SLAPS Vegeta into unconsciousness. Everyone's arguing about Vegeta's character or Moro's appearance, really no one has a problem with the logistics of Moro's absurd power leap? When I read it, it felt like insultingly bad writing.
Moro stored his former power in 7-3 [The one that beat UI omen Goku]. On top of that, he took 7-3's battle power, which naturally would make his ki higher than what it was against UI Omen Goku. Vegeta wasn't able to even contend with the former Moro, it's no surprise that a stronger Moro would tuck Vegeta in.
Yeah, I'm really not seeing that?

Vegeta got knocked around some by literally THAT Moro that you're saying he backed up into 7-3, but he was fine??? He power drained THAT Moro and dunked on him. He was holding his own against a UI Omen+ level opponent and then you're saying add ssj3, maybe, level of power on top of that, at the levels he and Goku are fighting at now, and somehow that's enough for him to get one-shot?

To me... I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
It was stated the Moro that was backed up into 7-3 was one whom Vegeta could "not contend with." Even his punch had "barely any effect." You have to remember too. The more Vegeta kept at Moro, the more he was draining him. So Vegeta took an attack from a Moro who wasn't at his height of power at the time.

So then, that same Moro [whom Vegeta couldn't contend with] gets a boost from 7-3 and pummels Vegeta. It's logical.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:04 pm
Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:41 pm
Moro stored his former power in 7-3 [The one that beat UI omen Goku]. On top of that, he took 7-3's battle power, which naturally would make his ki higher than what it was against UI Omen Goku. Vegeta wasn't able to even contend with the former Moro, it's no surprise that a stronger Moro would tuck Vegeta in.
Yeah, I'm really not seeing that?

Vegeta got knocked around some by literally THAT Moro that you're saying he backed up into 7-3, but he was fine??? He power drained THAT Moro and dunked on him. He was holding his own against a UI Omen+ level opponent and then you're saying add ssj3, maybe, level of power on top of that, at the levels he and Goku are fighting at now, and somehow that's enough for him to get one-shot?

To me... I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
It was stated the Moro that was backed up into 7-3 was one whom Vegeta could "not contend with." Even his punch had "barely any effect." You have to remember too. The more Vegeta kept at Moro, the more he was draining him. So Vegeta took an attack from a Moro who wasn't at his height of power at the time.

So then, that same Moro [whom Vegeta couldn't contend with] gets a boost from 7-3 and pummels Vegeta. It's logical.
I still really don't buy that, but let's say that's the case, it completely invalidates all the time Toyotaro has spent dangling Vegeta's work on Yardrat in front of us. Forget insulting Vegeta fans, why would he waste all that time writing and paneling and drawing to have the result of that effort be actually WORSE than before he ever started, let alone also worse than it was minutes before he'd brought that training to bear.

It's ALMOST like it was all a big gag, especially with how laughably fast Vegeta went down, this guy's never gone down like that, and I'd honestly think it was a gag if not for how seriously the manga seems to play it. Without Vegeta, the Z gang seem to be fucked now, and that's at the very least exactly what the manga pages want us to think.

Honestly, now, if Goku manages MUI it's still gonna feel like an asspull, but if Beerus shows up and just "fixes" everything... even with the foreshadowing, just how is that a satisfying narrative conclusion? It's garbage.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheNingen » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:41 pm

Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:04 pm
Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Yeah, I'm really not seeing that?

Vegeta got knocked around some by literally THAT Moro that you're saying he backed up into 7-3, but he was fine??? He power drained THAT Moro and dunked on him. He was holding his own against a UI Omen+ level opponent and then you're saying add ssj3, maybe, level of power on top of that, at the levels he and Goku are fighting at now, and somehow that's enough for him to get one-shot?

To me... I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
It was stated the Moro that was backed up into 7-3 was one whom Vegeta could "not contend with." Even his punch had "barely any effect." You have to remember too. The more Vegeta kept at Moro, the more he was draining him. So Vegeta took an attack from a Moro who wasn't at his height of power at the time.

So then, that same Moro [whom Vegeta couldn't contend with] gets a boost from 7-3 and pummels Vegeta. It's logical.
I still really don't buy that, but let's say that's the case, it completely invalidates all the time Toyotaro has spent dangling Vegeta's work on Yardrat in front of us. Forget insulting Vegeta fans, why would he waste all that time writing and paneling and drawing to have the result of that effort be actually WORSE than before he ever started, let alone also worse than it was minutes before he'd brought that training to bear.

It's ALMOST like it was all a big gag, especially with how laughably fast Vegeta went down, this guy's never gone down like that, and I'd honestly think it was a gag if not for how seriously the manga seems to play it. Without Vegeta, the Z gang seem to be fucked now, and that's at the very least exactly what the manga pages want us to think.

Honestly, now, if Goku manages MUI it's still gonna feel like an asspull, but if Beerus shows up and just "fixes" everything... even with the foreshadowing, just how is that a satisfying narrative conclusion? It's garbage.
It's almost like Toyo can't really write well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:41 pm

Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm I still really don't buy that, but let's say that's the case, it completely invalidates all the time Toyotaro has spent dangling Vegeta's work on Yardrat in front of us. Forget insulting Vegeta fans, why would he waste all that time writing and paneling and drawing to have the result of that effort be actually WORSE than before he ever started, let alone also worse than it was minutes before he'd brought that training to bear.

It's ALMOST like it was all a big gag, especially with how laughably fast Vegeta went down, this guy's never gone down like that, and I'd honestly think it was a gag if not for how seriously the manga seems to play it. Without Vegeta, the Z gang seem to be fucked now, and that's at the very least exactly what the manga pages want us to think.

Honestly, now, if Goku manages MUI it's still gonna feel like an asspull, but if Beerus shows up and just "fixes" everything... even with the foreshadowing, just how is that a satisfying narrative conclusion? It's garbage.
Its almost as if the arc isn’t finished yet and Vegeta’s technique might in fact save the day. I know how this works because its been happening for the entire run of this arc. You complain about something not making sense or being poor writing but when its explained by further things in the story its ignored. It happened with Merus, people said it was bad writing that Merus could take on SSJ3 Goku and got on Toyotaro about this.

Now There are genuine issues with his writing and I acknowledge that, but talking about things that are part of unfinished plot lines seems counterproductive. I’ll gladly admit if I’m wrong and Vegeta is done for this arc, but I will also Reply to this and Bring this back up if Vegeta’s technique does end up defeating Moro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:07 pm

Edit: While I do consider all of this to be a retread, it's worth restating that it's infinitely better than whatever the anime does with him, or what any other non-Toriyama writer has done with him in the last 25 years. Just need to get that out there.
----------------------------------------
Original post follows:
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:50 am I don’t agree that they are the same thing at all

Yes Vegeta was sorry for his part in resurrecting Buu and also killing the people at the stadium. In the Buu arc he is able to help fix the mistakes he made that same day

But here Vegeta is showing regret for the evil things he did in the past that he couldn’t fix because they are from too long ago
I don't think this is a distinction that has much (if any) value. There's no difference between him ruminating offscreen and him figuring stuff out in real time. I tend to side with the latter anyway, since we get to see him come to the necessary conclusions in that scenario than just being told it happened offscreen, but I digress.
I think the whole point is Vegeta is good now but he has done bad things too that can’t just be erased. Those things are part of him too and I don’t think the series ever showed his thoughts on how he feels about his past as a whole.


It has. Again, in the Buu arc. He laments that in his past he was the perfect warrior: cold and ruthless. He viewed that as him being at the pinnacle of what he could be. It's also something he viewed as the complete opposite of what he had become in present day.

We know how Vegeta viewed his past actions. He views them as evil.
And yes I think these thoughts should have been shown before this but I don’t agree with ppl who say they can never be shown because they weren’t shown before. It’s fine to add depth to a character like this. People seem to mistake that if a character doesn’t mention something on screen then they couldn’t possibly have ever thought of something.
My claim is that none of this is adding depth. It's just explaining things anyone who read the original, and actually bothered to analyze it, should already know. But, you know, the fact that I'm here explaining all this clearly means a lot of people didn't get it (not meant to be insulting, just an observation). So maybe Toyotaro recapping Vegeta's greatest hits while characters explain exactly what's going on has some value to it.
The Undying wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:43 am However, the difference with the Namekians is that they're an abject moral failure on Vegeta's part, not just some miscalculation. Not only do they represent the worst atrocities of his past, they are, as Kinokima said, not easily fixable. What makes his circumstances so refreshing to me is Vegeta having to experience reminders of his life as a sadistic space pirate, directly interacting with a race of people he wronged, and then actually failing to protect them against an antagonist mirroring those same actions from years ago.
The Android arc was nothing but Vegeta having to interact with people he hurt and wronged in the past. That whole thing culminated with Perfect Cell, a problem of his doing, killing his son in front of him. The Buu arc is similar, but to a lesser extent.

I think Vegeta, bar none, is easily the most complex character in Dragonball, and have spent the better part of 20 years analyzing, dissecting and marveling at him as a character. Nothing that Toyotaro has done in this arc has added anything to him that wasn't there before.

The only cool additions made to Vegeta since Battle of Gods was Vegeta utterly humiliating himself doing the Bingo Dance to save the people he'd come to love, and allowing himself to be trained by someone in Resurrection F. Both come directly from Toriyama's mind. Those are neat; this is much less so.

It is what it is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:42 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:07 pm
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:50 am I don’t agree that they are the same thing at all

Yes Vegeta was sorry for his part in resurrecting Buu and also killing the people at the stadium. In the Buu arc he is able to help fix the mistakes he made that same day

But here Vegeta is showing regret for the evil things he did in the past that he couldn’t fix because they are from too long ago
I don't think this is a distinction that has much (if any) value. There's no difference between him ruminating offscreen and him figuring stuff out in real time. I tend to side with the latter anyway, since we get to see him come to the necessary conclusions in that scenario than just being told it happened offscreen, but I digress.
I think the whole point is Vegeta is good now but he has done bad things too that can’t just be erased. Those things are part of him too and I don’t think the series ever showed his thoughts on how he feels about his past as a whole.


It has. Again, in the Buu arc. He laments that in his past he was the perfect warrior: cold and ruthless. He viewed that as him being at the pinnacle of what he could be. It's also something he viewed as the complete opposite of what he had become in present day.

We know how Vegeta viewed his past actions. He views them as evil.

And I still don’t agree with you that these are the same things at all

Vegeta saying he was the perfect warrior cold and ruthless is not the same as outright regretting evil things he did in the past like slaughtering an innocent Namekian village.

For the record his speech to Goku when he was Majin Vegeta is one of my favorite scenes in DB. Yes in that scene Vegeta had realized slowly over the years he had changed and became a different person. I always liked it because while some people thing Vegeta took to long to turn good I always loved that it happened gradually without him even noticing. It’s like his heart began to grow little by little


But Vegeta reflecting on his past now isn’t about someone realizing they are a different person or even that they were once evil. It’s about someone who is a very different person to who they once were looking back and regretting their old self. It’s like me looking back and regretting some of the mistakes I made as a teenager. Except my mistakes are more easily forgiven than the things Vegeta did. Vegeta has a completely different sense of morality now so it’s not really surprising to me that he would judge himself so harshly because of who he once was.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:49 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:07 pm The Android arc was nothing but Vegeta having to interact with people he hurt and wronged in the past.
This only enhances what I said.

Cell arc Vegeta casually threatened other characters, had very little regard for human life in general and barely gave a shit about his own son until he was shot through the chest. He isn't remotely comparable to a post Boo arc or even mid Boo arc Vegeta, which is the name of the game in a discussion about an arc that touches on his character growth throughout the series. We're seeing him react differently here because he's a different person. That's the point.

It's fine if he's your favorite DB character. He's actually not mine. But the argument that this isn't situationally new for a version of Vegeta that didn't just come to regret his actions in the past, but constantly strives to do better is thoroughly unconvincing to me.

It feels like everyone's just retreading the same points in this thread and flinging the same rebuttals. We can keep discussing it if you want, but I'd rather agree to disagree than drag this out any further.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:14 am

Wait a second, where the fuck are the senzu beans? There is a battle of the universe happening and none of Z fighters mentioned bringing a bag of healing beans for themselves? There was practically multiple duels going about between Moro's remaining army members and the Z gang going on just a couple chapters ago. Why the fuck has no one brought senzu beans to ensure they don't get exhausted? Goku is in no condition to fight, while I doubt he'll damage Moro at senzu bean would at least ensure he isn't heaving and wheezing trying to rush at Moro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:29 am

Kinokima wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:42 pm Vegeta saying he was the perfect warrior cold and ruthless is not the same as outright regretting evil things he did in the past like slaughtering an innocent Namekian village.
I'd say it's exactly the same. He's evolved enough as a person in the Buu Arc to now be able to look back at his past actions and realize they were completely evil and cold. That shows his progression. He's progressed so much that he needs an evil space toad wizardman to turn him back to who he was. :shrug:

Also worth stating that in that chunk of chapters, Vegeta is sorrowful that his actions led to Gohan's "death".
The Undying wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:49 pm It feels like everyone's just retreading the same points in this thread and flinging the same rebuttals. We can keep discussing it if you want, but I'd rather agree to disagree than drag this out any further.
I'm not actually reading most of what's being posted, so forgive me if I'm echoing anyone's points. I'm really only reading what you and a few specific posters have to say. It keeps me from having to post a lot.

But, sure. Agree to disagree. In the spirit of that, I won't talk about the other stuff in your post. :thumbup:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:33 am

The Undying wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:49 pmIt feels like everyone's just retreading the same points in this thread and flinging the same rebuttals. We can keep discussing it if you want, but I'd rather agree to disagree than drag this out any further.
I fully admit I’ve been guilty of this as I’ve been talking to different people and feeling like I every time I go back to square one. It’s definitely frustrating

Think I need to stay away from this discussion until next chapter at least :wave:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:33 am

Discussing power levels in shonen and in Dragon Ball never really made sense... you are stuck with the characters explanations anyway. It is the same magic like Bardock or Goku and Beerus breathing in space, or unbeatable non-shadow punch/kick whatever in kung-fu movie. Looks cool but there is no science or hard fact behind it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:20 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:33 amIt is the same magic like Bardock or Goku and Beerus breathing in space. Looks cool but there is no science or hard fact behind it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:32 pm

Dragonball is a series that ties character growth inextricably to their power levels. To neglect a character's power level is to neglect their character growth and their struggles to achieve that power.

With that said, power level discussions as just an exercise in how good you are at making Excel spreadsheets is the most passé and rote discussion you can get into about this series.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:19 pm

Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:04 pm
Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Yeah, I'm really not seeing that?

Vegeta got knocked around some by literally THAT Moro that you're saying he backed up into 7-3, but he was fine??? He power drained THAT Moro and dunked on him. He was holding his own against a UI Omen+ level opponent and then you're saying add ssj3, maybe, level of power on top of that, at the levels he and Goku are fighting at now, and somehow that's enough for him to get one-shot?

To me... I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
It was stated the Moro that was backed up into 7-3 was one whom Vegeta could "not contend with." Even his punch had "barely any effect." You have to remember too. The more Vegeta kept at Moro, the more he was draining him. So Vegeta took an attack from a Moro who wasn't at his height of power at the time.

So then, that same Moro [whom Vegeta couldn't contend with] gets a boost from 7-3 and pummels Vegeta. It's logical.
I still really don't buy that, but let's say that's the case, it completely invalidates all the time Toyotaro has spent dangling Vegeta's work on Yardrat in front of us. Forget insulting Vegeta fans, why would he waste all that time writing and paneling and drawing to have the result of that effort be actually WORSE than before he ever started, let alone also worse than it was minutes before he'd brought that training to bear.

It's ALMOST like it was all a big gag, especially with how laughably fast Vegeta went down, this guy's never gone down like that, and I'd honestly think it was a gag if not for how seriously the manga seems to play it. Without Vegeta, the Z gang seem to be fucked now, and that's at the very least exactly what the manga pages want us to think.

Honestly, now, if Goku manages MUI it's still gonna feel like an asspull, but if Beerus shows up and just "fixes" everything... even with the foreshadowing, just how is that a satisfying narrative conclusion? It's garbage.
The narrative behind Vegeta's visit to Yardrat was for a specific technique to overcome Moro's absorption. That plot point was fulfilled. Vegeta can't help that Moro planned ahead with 7-3. Escalating the story's power level even higher. Hence why Vegeta gets knocked back into base. I don't see any problems with Toyotaro's writing on this point.

Now if Vegeta's fight is unsatisfying to you, fine. However, I'm satiated. Vegeta did what he was suppose to do. Doesn't mean he can't do more either. We'll have to see.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:10 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:00 pm Vegeta sacrificed himself selfishly for those he loved [Trunks, Bulma].
All atonement is effectively selfish because it's done to make yourself feel better. It doesn't change the fact this was the peak of Vegeta's growth as a character. Piccolo says it himself in the scene. That it's the first time Vegeta is fighting for someone other than himself. Fighing for others, fighting for his family, had never been something he'd ever considered before. Not until this moment when he finally acknowledges his own humanity.
Even against Kidd Buu, he made earth take responsibility for Goku, saving it time and time again.
Which kinda shows that Vegeta hopes the Earth will become better. That it won't just be passive and do nothing but let others do all the work to protect it. It's the same reason why Vegeta didn't want them to bring Gohan there, since Ult. Gohan would be stronger than Kid Buu.
Against Moro, Vegeta himself atoned for Namek and the entire universe. Which accounts for his cosmos tyranny. Along, with Condemning himself and his actions, which was built off of the repentance he showed earlier in the arc to the Namekians.
And why is the rest of the universe being thrown in HERE as part of his atonement instead of his actual sacrifice against Buu, whom we know has been responsible for destroying countless worlds and would continue to do so under Babidi's command, or even just on his own?

This is the point that's being missed. The fact there is no reason why he should feel a reason to atone for the Namekians and somehow everyone else he ever hurt just because of this incident with Moro. There isn't a reason for it and no narrative reason why he wouldn't continue seeking atonement for all the other worlds and people he harmed. They're not getting munched on by Moro. They're either dead or part of Freeza's empire.

There is no reason why this is where he atones when it's nowhere near as emotional or as meaningful as his fight against Buu. It doesn't even come close and it doesn't resonate emotionally with the audience. It's just fabricated and forced.
This shows Vegeta made a complete turnaround. He was straight garbage in Namek, Android, Cell and even all of Buu. He fought for his pride and surpassing Kakarot. Until he admits all of this in the end of Buu. This is where his journey begins towards the path. Buu is nothing more than a build up to this point. What Vegeta did back then was a start, this current act just completes him.
This arc doesn't complete him at all. It reset his character so he could do the same atonement shtick all over again, only have it mean even less to the audience with even less of an impact. It is a lazy contrivance.
The narrative behind Vegeta's visit to Yardrat was for a specific technique to overcome Moro's absorption. That plot point was fulfilled. Vegeta can't help that Moro planned ahead with 7-3. Escalating the story's power level even higher. Hence why Vegeta gets knocked back into base. I don't see any problems with Toyotaro's writing on this point.
Again, it's a contrivance. Vegeta had no way of knowing of the Yardratians would have such a technique. It's the definition of a forced separation from the group. This is something I've already explained before. They already had all of this training before. With Whis. Whis taught them to control and hold all their energy inside their bodies, to stop it from leaking out. It was the only way in which they could move in that godly dimension they were sent to with his staff.

This lesson would easily have been the point of the development of a technique to stop Moro from draining them. By controlling their own energy they could keep it from being pulled from them by Moro. Thus eliminating Moro's advantage. Whis had even already told Vegeta that he could improve immensely by just relaxing himself more. Because him being tense all the time and overthinking his strategies in a fight causes him to waste too much energy.

These are details that go completely ignored by Toyotaro who just has the same ideas imparted to Vegeta on Yardrat, even though he's already been taught these things by Whis.
Now if Vegeta's fight is unsatisfying to you, fine. However, I'm satiated. Vegeta did what he was suppose to do. Doesn't mean he can't do more either. We'll have to see.
His fight isn't just unsatisfying. It's pointless. It holds no weight. They bullshitted a new power for Moro, effectively just turning him into Majin Buu by 'absorbing' people to gain power boosts and abilities. Something that just opens up a whole host of plotholes. Since if he could always do such a thing, why didn't he use this ability against Daikaio/Buu when DaiBuu could negate his energy draining and resist his magic? That would've restored him significantly and made him nigh-unstoppable right then and there.

This whole arc has been overly dragged out and we can pretty much say it's being done so intentionally until Toei/Shueisha is ready to make an announcement about the next DBS movie. They need to keep fan interest going until they have something solid to show. Considering the last episode of the Anime aired in March of 2018 with the Broly movie airing in Japan that Dec and the rest of the world getting in 4-6weeks later, then we've been Dragonball Less for almost a year and a half. Nothing but the Heroes episodes (which are boring) and the Manga, which is less than interesting.

The Kakarot game seemed to do ok, but people got quickly bored of it. Especially with how they just shoved BoG and other DBS material in there. So here we are, waiting for a new continuation of the anime and/or the next movie, and all we really have is Toyotaro's manga. And having it drag itself through a rancid swamp in the hopes of keeping the fans placated until Shueisha can prep a trailer to appease the fans.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:50 pm

Toyo spent months on Vegeta's training only to have the application of his new technique result in Moro just becoming stronger than ever and one-shotting Vegeta in less than a single issue.

He's accomplished less than nothing.

If he then, later, gets up, and somehow he can now use his new technique again to effectively oneshot Moro back, then Moro getting stronger and "raising the stakes" will have just been masturbatory filler.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:02 pm

Putting the current chapter/arc aside for a moment, I wouldn't say all atonement is selfish. If the final goal is other-directed at all, you're not necessarily thinking about personal relief in that instance (even if personal relief happens to be the result).

Vegeta's sacrifice against Boo was emotionally profound precisely because he made that sacrifice in a last-ditch effort to protect his family and those he cared about. He did that knowing he'd die and would be going straight to hell, something he didn't want, so he wasn't doing it for himself.

In other words, you can atone without intending to atone for the sake of it, if that makes any sense. Ironically it's probably the most genuine example of atonement there is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:33 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:41 pm
Ziegander wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:19 pm I still really don't buy that, but let's say that's the case, it completely invalidates all the time Toyotaro has spent dangling Vegeta's work on Yardrat in front of us. Forget insulting Vegeta fans, why would he waste all that time writing and paneling and drawing to have the result of that effort be actually WORSE than before he ever started, let alone also worse than it was minutes before he'd brought that training to bear.

It's ALMOST like it was all a big gag, especially with how laughably fast Vegeta went down, this guy's never gone down like that, and I'd honestly think it was a gag if not for how seriously the manga seems to play it. Without Vegeta, the Z gang seem to be fucked now, and that's at the very least exactly what the manga pages want us to think.

Honestly, now, if Goku manages MUI it's still gonna feel like an asspull, but if Beerus shows up and just "fixes" everything... even with the foreshadowing, just how is that a satisfying narrative conclusion? It's garbage.
Its almost as if the arc isn’t finished yet and Vegeta’s technique might in fact save the day. I know how this works because its been happening for the entire run of this arc. You complain about something not making sense or being poor writing but when its explained by further things in the story its ignored. It happened with Merus, people said it was bad writing that Merus could take on SSJ3 Goku and got on Toyotaro about this.

Now There are genuine issues with his writing and I acknowledge that, but talking about things that are part of unfinished plot lines seems counterproductive. I’ll gladly admit if I’m wrong and Vegeta is done for this arc, but I will also Reply to this and Bring this back up if Vegeta’s technique does end up defeating Moro.
Yup, this happened to me. I complained about Merus because I'm so used to the DBS asspulls that it naturally seemed to be the most careless one of them all. But I was VERY wrong and it showed me that we have to be more charitable to Toyotaro and let the story play out. Logically what'll happened is that everyone will try to keep Moro busy until Vegeta wakes up. Vegeta's technique should be able to unfuse Moro. There's a chance that it won't, perhaps if it cannot affect magic or science based fusions, but he seems to be the only one that can deal with this unless Goku does his mimic thing again.

My prediction: It'll end up being a group victory with Vegeta and/or his technique being the main threat to Moro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:40 pm

Ziegander wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:50 pm Toyo spent months on Vegeta's training only to have the application of his new technique result in Moro just becoming stronger than ever and one-shotting Vegeta in less than a single issue.

He's accomplished less than nothing.

If he then, later, gets up, and somehow he can now use his new technique again to effectively oneshot Moro back, then Moro getting stronger and "raising the stakes" will have just been masturbatory filler.
It raises the stakes because Goku in Omen was about dead even with Moro. Secondly, you're really not grasping the meaning behind pointing out that Vegeta's technique can undo fusions in this chapter.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:48 pm

The Undying wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:02 pm Putting the current chapter/arc aside for a moment, I wouldn't say all atonement is selfish. If the final goal is other-directed at all, you're not necessarily thinking about personal relief in that instance (even if personal relief happens to be the result).

Vegeta's sacrifice against Boo was emotionally profound precisely because he made that sacrifice in a last-ditch effort to protect his family and those he cared about. He did that knowing he'd die and would be going straight to hell, something he didn't want, so he wasn't doing it for himself.

In other words, you can atone without intending to atone for the sake of it, if that makes any sense. Ironically it's probably the most genuine example of atonement there is.
I don't agree that sacrificing himself for his family is less selfish than atoning for a group of people he'd brutalized in the past, people he has no connection to whatsoever. In fact, it's the opposite. In Vegeta's case, it's highly unlikely that his atonement for the Namekians has any basis in selfishness. It's an act that his allies, the Namekians, Bulma, and the writer(s) of the story all let him get away with. There's no punishment, no need to appear remorseful because no one has shown him that they care. It's been completely glazed over, but he knows its not right and he wants to do something about it.

Because this is Dragon Ball, it's unlikely that Vegeta going to become some sort of Ambassador to Namek and champion of Namekian rights but within the framework of the type of stories DB tends to tell, it works. It's done wonders to improve Vegeta's standing for me, someone who was never a Vegeta fan because he got away with this slaughter so easily. He's quickly becoming a favorite of mine.
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