"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

EGonzo
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:36 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:40 pm

Zelvin wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:07 am
TKA wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:44 am
Jean0987654321 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:38 pm
Well...that was a disappointing chapter. A lot of hype for nothing as Moro gets an asspull of a lifeline through 7-3 and Vegeta looks like a cocky idiot and jabroni once again...
It would've been an even bigger disappointment if he just showed up, used one technique he learned largely offscreen and Moro lost.
Disappointing? Perhaps. Anticlimactic? Certainly. But it would've been over. Vegeta would've used his new technique to weaken Moro until he was capable of finishing him off. That would've been satisfactory and given Vegeta a much deserved win.
Not even in the original manga did anything like that happen. Goku learned the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, showed up to fight Vegeta, and both techniques failed to win the day. Fusion got introduced, and neither fusion managed to win the day in the Buu arc.
The circumstances aren't the same. And we know Vegeta didn't asspull new abilities to prolong events. We know he can become an oozaru because he still has his tail, we know Saiyans can transform thanks to Goku. You could argue the Moonball is a bit of an asspull, however, everything had been set up beforehand.

While Fusion didn't ultimately finish Buu, it could have. Vegito absolutely had Ult Buu out and out beaten. He only allowed himself to become absorbed so he could find some way to save their friends and family from inside Buu. Them not re-fusing to beat Kid Buu was a personal choice and a showing of their pride as Saiyans. Yes they knew that by not using the Potara things would be worse for them, but it lead to a very desperate plea from Vegeta for the Earthling's to help Goku and to stand up for themselves for once. So what we ended up with was still very satisfying.

What we got with Moro was a complete asspull that made everything previous irrelevant. That includes the amping of Sagambo. Z-fighters had a strat, they were winning and beating all the goons. Then Sagambo gets BS power boost from Moro that lets him solo the whole team handily, making all of their efforts completely pointless and a waste of time. All of their accomplishments, training and team work, thrown out the window just to artificially raise the stakes so UIS Goku could jump in and save them. Like what happens Every. Single. Time.

Only now UIS fails to be much of anything against Moro, never mind 7-3Moro who just curbstomps everyone for no reason. All their accomplishments. All their training and all that time spent watching them build their strategy, prepare themselves and all that time working together and developing their abilities...all thrown out the window into the trash bin so Toyo can drag this out even longer.

It isn't just disappointing. It's aggravating. And eventually it's going to get to the point where people just start feeling apathetic and walk away from the series. Losing more fans is not something these companies can afford.
I think you hit the issues with the arc right on the head

User avatar
Ziegander
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:55 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:56 pm

EGonzo wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:40 pm
Zelvin wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:07 am
TKA wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:44 am


It would've been an even bigger disappointment if he just showed up, used one technique he learned largely offscreen and Moro lost.
Disappointing? Perhaps. Anticlimactic? Certainly. But it would've been over. Vegeta would've used his new technique to weaken Moro until he was capable of finishing him off. That would've been satisfactory and given Vegeta a much deserved win.
Not even in the original manga did anything like that happen. Goku learned the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, showed up to fight Vegeta, and both techniques failed to win the day. Fusion got introduced, and neither fusion managed to win the day in the Buu arc.
The circumstances aren't the same. And we know Vegeta didn't asspull new abilities to prolong events. We know he can become an oozaru because he still has his tail, we know Saiyans can transform thanks to Goku. You could argue the Moonball is a bit of an asspull, however, everything had been set up beforehand.

While Fusion didn't ultimately finish Buu, it could have. Vegito absolutely had Ult Buu out and out beaten. He only allowed himself to become absorbed so he could find some way to save their friends and family from inside Buu. Them not re-fusing to beat Kid Buu was a personal choice and a showing of their pride as Saiyans. Yes they knew that by not using the Potara things would be worse for them, but it lead to a very desperate plea from Vegeta for the Earthling's to help Goku and to stand up for themselves for once. So what we ended up with was still very satisfying.

What we got with Moro was a complete asspull that made everything previous irrelevant. That includes the amping of Sagambo. Z-fighters had a strat, they were winning and beating all the goons. Then Sagambo gets BS power boost from Moro that lets him solo the whole team handily, making all of their efforts completely pointless and a waste of time. All of their accomplishments, training and team work, thrown out the window just to artificially raise the stakes so UIS Goku could jump in and save them. Like what happens Every. Single. Time.

Only now UIS fails to be much of anything against Moro, never mind 7-3Moro who just curbstomps everyone for no reason. All their accomplishments. All their training and all that time spent watching them build their strategy, prepare themselves and all that time working together and developing their abilities...all thrown out the window into the trash bin so Toyo can drag this out even longer.

It isn't just disappointing. It's aggravating. And eventually it's going to get to the point where people just start feeling apathetic and walk away from the series. Losing more fans is not something these companies can afford.
I think you hit the issues with the arc right on the head
Was starting to think I was the only one who felt like this. :wtf:
I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2201
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am

If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
“The fool looks to God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

User avatar
Matches Malone
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1983
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:56 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am
If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
I think Vegeta has been built up too much to win this, so I don't think we have anything to worry about, but as long as it's not won through Merus or fusion, I'll be happy.

User avatar
TKA
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:59 am

Zelvin wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:07 am
Vegeta would've used his new technique to weaken Moro until he was capable of finishing him off. That would've been satisfactory and given Vegeta a much deserved win.
1. That's exactly what happened. Vegeta neutralized and weakened him enough that he had to use a trump card. Next chapter maybe more shit happens that justifies Vegeta's presence; who can even know? You're arguing from the perspective that what happened in this chapter will be the extent of Vegeta's involvement. That is, on its face, ridiculous and I honestly wouldn't have bothered addressing it if I didn't see people agreeing.

2. No character "deserves" anything. They are tools through which a story's themes are conveyed. How often must this be said here?
The circumstances aren't the same. And we know Vegeta didn't asspull new abilities to prolong events. We know he can become an oozaru because he still has his tail, we know Saiyans can transform thanks to Goku. You could argue the Moonball is a bit of an asspull, however, everything had been set up beforehand.
None of this has anything to do with what I said.

I said the techniques that had been built up as the problem solvers that will win the day for Goku both failed. Because Dragonball's writing is not that basic and predictable. I'm not talking about plot, I'm talking about basic story structure.

But if you want to get into plot: everything we're being shown now are extensions of Moro's abilities. We've seen him given his power to minions, and we've seen him suck power from everyone and everything. This ain't new.
While Fusion didn't ultimately finish Buu, it could have.


But it didn't. Because that's the point I'm making. Because Akira Toriyama doesn't write like a novice. The obvious answer isn't the answer.

Well, that's all I think needs replying to in order to avoid restating the same points multiple times in one post.
The Creatives who inspire me: Akira Toriyama, George Lucas, Chris Nolan, J. R. R. Tolkien and Zack Snyder


http://i.imgur.com/XAnj7Yi.jpg

You saw Batman v Superman? Is it the Ultimate Edition? No? Then you haven't seen Batman v Superman. Batman is out there busting his ass to avenge Goku and you won't even go see him do it?!

User avatar
Zelvin
Regular
Posts: 708
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: The Unknown Regions

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zelvin » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:01 pm

TKA wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:59 am
1. That's exactly what happened. Vegeta neutralized and weakened him enough that he had to use a trump card. Next chapter maybe more shit happens that justifies Vegeta's presence; who can even know? You're arguing from the perspective that what happened in this chapter will be the extent of Vegeta's involvement. That is, on its face, ridiculous and I honestly wouldn't have bothered addressing it if I didn't see people agreeing.
The same thing already happened on Namek. Moro was ruining their shit until Daikaio-Buu stepped in, countered Moro's magic and abilities and had him beaten. Then he uses his trump card, has his powers restored by the Dragon Balls, wins and then goes on to free the prisoners. So this story beat has already occurred. What makes this an asspull is the fact there was no indication Moro could just eat people to absorb them.

It also doesn't matter if something happens later that justifies Vegeta returning yet again. The facts of the matter don't change. The fact that nothing built up has had any kind of payoff, that the audiences time has been wasted, and that this arc isn't just dragging it's heels, it's doing so while the emergency brake is on.
2. No character "deserves" anything. They are tools through which a story's themes are conveyed. How often must this be said here?
And audiences are tools to be used by companies to make money. However, when you fail to keep the audience invested, they leave and they don't give these companies their money. If the writing can't hold their interest or is actively disengaging the fans from the story, then it's not doing its job.

You need one of two things to keep audience investment.
1. A well written story and/or likeable character(s).
2. A gimmick or trope that doesn't wear out its welcome. (see fan-service and ecchi series)

This arc is giving us neither of these things. We have the likeable characters we always knew, but the writing isn't up to par.
None of this has anything to do with what I said.

I said the techniques that had been built up as the problem solvers that will win the day for Goku both failed. Because Dragonball's writing is not that basic and predictable. I'm not talking about plot, I'm talking about basic story structure.
It actually has been pretty damn predictable. Goku had always had some kind of power up or boost to win the day. Going all the way as far back as the original Dragon Ball. He gets nearly killed by Tao, then recovers with the help of Korrin, gets a power boost from training, comes back and beats Tao's ass. Gets nearly killed by King Piccolo, receives the Super Holy Water, comes back and wins the day.
But if you want to get into plot: everything we're being shown now are extensions of Moro's abilities. We've seen him given his power to minions, and we've seen him suck power from everyone and everything. This ain't new.
We've seen him manipulate energy with his magic and eat energy. There was no indication he was like Majin Buu and could just eat people. What he was doing was more akin to Yakkon, only without getting fat and exploding. And actually, as we've said time and again, he's more like Tirek with a sprinkle of Grogar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk47H1HczYg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se7qXFdJhmo
It's no exaggeration to say that this is basically all Moro is.
But it didn't. Because that's the point I'm making. Because Akira Toriyama doesn't write like a novice.
He's not writing Shakespeare either. Toriyama knows what his strengths are and it was his Editor that made him better. It's why the Freeza, Android and Cell Sagas were as good as they were. Toyotaro doesn't appear to have anyone reigning him in or helping him to make things work within the plot and is just doing whatever he wants. Toriyama still has the characters struggle to achieve victory over the odds. They're not struggling here. They're just getting curbstomped into the dirt out of nowhere and then we're expected to believe they can still win.
The obvious answer isn't the answer.
It's generally the correct one. "Subverting expectations" only works if what you replaced their expectations with was something better. All we're seeing is stuff getting worse. Hell, pretty much everyone from the moment Merus popped in and dropped Goku and Vegeta with absolute ease either called bullshit of that ever happening if there was no one else that could be located for the ToP or said that he had to be an Angel to do it. And everyone was right on the money. It was the Obvious Answer.
PS3 Xenoverse Player
PS4 Xenoverse 2 Player
PSN ID: ReiKai_Onimusha
Main Character: Zelvin
Race: Frost Demon
"In space, no one can hear you scream. But you still make one ugly face."

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:54 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:26 pm

Yeah, I'm really not seeing that?

Vegeta got knocked around some by literally THAT Moro that you're saying he backed up into 7-3, but he was fine??? He power drained THAT Moro and dunked on him. He was holding his own against a UI Omen+ level opponent and then you're saying add ssj3, maybe, level of power on top of that, at the levels he and Goku are fighting at now, and somehow that's enough for him to get one-shot?

To me... I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
Moro 73's power is basically composed of Prime Moro (stronger than UIO Goku) + Old Moro (around post ToP SSG Vegeta level) + 73 (unknown base power).

I would say this is a very considerable leap from his former power. Not to mention that we don't know if this fusion is a simple sum of the parts or a potentializer

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am
If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
Tenshinhan learning the mafuba.
Goku learning training with Kaio/learning the genki dama.
Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
...

And that's just examples from the original series. Should I go on?

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:16 pm

Kagari wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am
If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
Tenshinhan learning the mafuba.
Goku learning training with Kaio/learning the genki dama.
Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
...

And that's just examples from the original series. Should I go on?
Kaioken helped fight Vegeta off and Genki dama killed Buu. I wouldn't say those were wasted. I guess because they didn't beat Vegeta back when they were first learned. However, there was more building up there like Gohan's training with Piccolo. It was a combo of both so I don't think that was wasted.

Tien learning the Mafuba I wouldn't say was really built up.

Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan yeah I mean sure. However, I think you can make the argument that they weren't wasted as they acted as a way to power up Buu to bring on Vegito who wasn't wasted seeing as his plan to infiltrate Buu was a success.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
I Live Here
Posts: 2201
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:52 pm

Kagari wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am
If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
Tenshinhan learning the mafuba.
Goku learning training with Kaio/learning the genki dama.
Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
...

And that's just examples from the original series. Should I go on?
Well I guess I should’ve used the word SHOULD then.
“The fool looks to God outside him. The wise understands that God is within him.”

Kinokima
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:17 pm

Why are people acting like Vegeta did nothing with his new move because he didn’t beat Moro with it? The move actually brought the Namekians back to life. So even if Vegeta doesn’t beat Moro saying he accomplished nothing with what he learned on Yadrat is completely false


I mean sure the Namekians being able to come back to life in that way was plot convenience (I won’t argue that) but there seems to be this false notion that the only worthy thing a character can accomplish is beating a main villain.

User avatar
Kagari
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 851
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:11 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:42 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:16 pm
Kagari wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:46 am
If Vegeta either doesn’t defuse 73-Moro with his new technique, or finishes him off after MUI Goku weakened him, then all of his training on Planet Yardrat would have been for nothing! And we would have every reason and right to complain as hard as we’d like. You don’t build someone up for so long and so big, just to throw it away for some stupid forced tension. Vegeta’s gotta beat him if Toyotaro wants our official respect.
Tenshinhan learning the mafuba.
Goku learning training with Kaio/learning the genki dama.
Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
...

And that's just examples from the original series. Should I go on?
Kaioken helped fight Vegeta off and Genki dama killed Buu. I wouldn't say those were wasted. I guess because they didn't beat Vegeta back when they were first learned. However, there was more building up there like Gohan's training with Piccolo. It was a combo of both so I don't think that was wasted.

Tien learning the Mafuba I wouldn't say was really built up.

Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan yeah I mean sure. However, I think you can make the argument that they weren't wasted as they acted as a way to power up Buu to bring on Vegito who wasn't wasted seeing as his plan to infiltrate Buu was a success.
This doesn't make any sense. If anything it just wasted more of the reader's time.

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:26 pm

Kagari wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:42 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:16 pm
Kagari wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:53 pm


Tenshinhan learning the mafuba.
Goku learning training with Kaio/learning the genki dama.
Gotenks
Ultimate Gohan
...

And that's just examples from the original series. Should I go on?
Kaioken helped fight Vegeta off and Genki dama killed Buu. I wouldn't say those were wasted. I guess because they didn't beat Vegeta back when they were first learned. However, there was more building up there like Gohan's training with Piccolo. It was a combo of both so I don't think that was wasted.

Tien learning the Mafuba I wouldn't say was really built up.

Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan yeah I mean sure. However, I think you can make the argument that they weren't wasted as they acted as a way to power up Buu to bring on Vegito who wasn't wasted seeing as his plan to infiltrate Buu was a success.
This doesn't make any sense. If anything it just wasted more of the reader's time.
My point is one could argue not really as it built up to a warrior worthy of a Goku fusion. I am not saying this as fact just it could be stated

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:06 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:17 pm
Why are people acting like Vegeta did nothing with his new move because he didn’t beat Moro with it?
One of the bigger complaints I'm reading is that it's too specific, but I can only see that as a good thing.

I think I'll address that here:

Vegeta's technique is super specific because Moro's technique is super specific, and specific moves demand specific counters. Vegeta accepted this the moment he came to grips with having his energy sapped for the second time in chapter 50. He fully understood that he needed a situational ability to combat Moro's gimmick, even if it required him to train under someone else again and abandon the independence he (re)committed himself to during the Tournament of Power, which is why he swallowed the hard pill and then parted ways with the rest of the gang.

Spirit Fission represents that moment of realization/progression and was actively foreshadowed throughout the arc. It also represents Vegeta's solution to helping Namek. It would have worked against foes like Boo or Zamasu, so it's not even so specific that it exclusively caters to Moro's absorption trick.

Having it be some widely useful ultra powerful move, in my view, would have diminished what the narrative was trying to convey. It would have diminished Vegeta's pragmatism in this circumstance. I'm completely in favor of disregarding that approach as long as it means something for the character.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
pepd
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:52 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:38 am

I doubt all the other planets and species will not get revived with DBs and remain dead, so I wonder if the Namekuseijins reviving now was just for Vegeta's redemption; maybe we will actually see a temporal Piccolo+Namekuseijins fusion -it would also give more use to Vegeta's training-

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:05 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:06 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:17 pm
Why are people acting like Vegeta did nothing with his new move because he didn’t beat Moro with it?
One of the bigger complaints I'm reading is that it's too specific, but I can only see that as a good thing.

I think I'll address that here:

Vegeta's technique is super specific because Moro's technique is super specific, and specific moves demand specific counters. Vegeta accepted this the moment he came to grips with having his energy sapped for the second time in chapter 50. He fully understood that he needed a situational ability to combat Moro's gimmick, even if it required him to train under someone else again and abandon the independence he (re)committed himself to during the Tournament of Power, which is why he swallowed the hard pill and then parted ways with the rest of the gang.

Spirit Fission represents that moment of realization/progression and was actively foreshadowed throughout the arc. It also represents Vegeta's solution to helping Namek. It would have worked against foes like Boo or Zamasu, so it's not even so specific that it exclusively caters to Moro's absorption trick.

Having it be some widely useful ultra powerful move, in my view, would have diminished what the narrative was trying to convey. It would have diminished Vegeta's pragmatism in this circumstance. I'm completely in favor of disregarding that approach as long as it means something for the character.
But that is the point. This technique being so situational makes Vegeta's training seem like a waste. Especially if this technique is only useful during a single chapter only to be dismissed against Moro 73. His training was build up for more than 1 year, so it was expected to be something much more versatile than what we saw.

And touching on another point, for me Toyotaro / Toriyama are still struggling to decide what to do with Vegeta's character now that he has decided to follow a separate path from Ultra Instinct. He needs something to keep up with Goku as the Oracle Fish prophecy says the two will be Beerus' greatest rivals, but nothing now seems to be definitive. Spirit Control is being useful in this specific battle, but it doesn't seem to be something designed to rival the UI. Vegeta got a great power boost, but it is also nothing compared to the Silver haired UI (which can still be used against Moro), and he didn't show to have any more power ups left. IDK, I expected more from Vegeta in this chapter

User avatar
Matches Malone
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1983
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:10 pm

I think the only way we can fairly judge Vegeta's training and overall usefulness is to simply wait for the arc to play out a bit more, as things are clearly far from over.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:16 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:05 pm
This technique being so situational makes Vegeta's training seem like a waste.
It would've been a waste if Moro's spirit-sapping move wasn't practically rendered useless or if New Namek wasn't restored. That's not what happened. It progressed the story and developed Vegeta.

The situation presented him with a choice - train independently for a generic power-up like the Earthlings, or train under someone else that could specifically counteract Moro's most threatening ability. He chose the latter, despite previously telling himself he wouldn't do that anymore. He went against his own principles to help a race/planet he promised to protect from an enemy with troubling parallels to his own past.

It's one of those extremely rare instances in the series where Vegeta wasn't just training to upstage Goku or prove his superiority, even if he did get a general boost from it. The fact that it's so situational underlines that.

I couldn't care less about "rivaling UI"; that's just power level wankery and isn't really the focus of his progression in this arc.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:46 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:16 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:05 pm
This technique being so situational makes Vegeta's training seem like a waste.
It would've been a waste if Moro's spirit-sapping move wasn't practically rendered useless or if New Namek wasn't restored. That's not what happened. It progressed the story and developed Vegeta.

The situation presented him with a choice - train independently for a generic power-up like the Earthlings, or train under someone else that could specifically counteract Moro's most threatening ability. He chose the latter, despite previously telling himself he wouldn't do that anymore. He went against his own principles to help a race/planet he promised to protect from an enemy with troubling parallels to his own past.

It's one of those extremely rare instances in the series where Vegeta wasn't just training to upstage Goku or prove his superiority, even if he did get a general boost from it. The fact that it's so situational underlines that.

I couldn't care less about "rivaling UI"; that's just power level wankery and isn't really the focus of his progression in this arc.
I know that this new technique and the whole Pybara training regime has a very important meaning for Vegeta's character arc during this saga and for his connection with the Namekians. But I'm talking about a practical, long-term use of this technique, which fulfilled its purpose in the ideological part only. Build up this technique for more than 1 year just to have the Ultimate Gohan / Gotenks treatment is a waste and bad writing.

Vegeta training separately from Goku is great and consistent with his characterization in ToP, in which he declares that he will get stronger in his own way, I’m just saying that to me it doesn’t seem clear the path they’re taking in relation to how Vegeta will evolve in the future, while goku has a very clear path (UI)

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:01 pm

It would be a grievous waste for Toyotaro to not have Vegeta's spirit training continue as a long term utility and a pseudo-philosophical frame of reference but the negligence itself wouldn't be without precedent. Does anyone here remember when Tenshinhan was undergoing intensive training in the Daimou arc to learn the Mafuba? Yeah, that was never even put to use in the manga and seemed to be forgotten about in later arcs -- at least Vegeta was able to take advantage of the fruits of his labour.

Post Reply