"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

DB's numbers aren't bad by any means, but I think they should be closer than they are. I think the arc's pacing during Goku and Vegeta's training may have hurt it, as nothing interesting was happening.

The dumbest thing is that the kids, who are now much older than they were in Buu arc, are intentionally left out of the fight. In my opinion this is something Toriyama is stubborn about. It seems like he absolutely wants to keep them out of everything.

You have to keep in mind when they were introduced the way they were, Toriyama was ending the manga and only had one specific role for them. Unfortunately, he clearly has no intentions of ever using them again, as he may view them as only good for the specific part they had in the Buu arc.

[Magnificent Ponta]

What if Whis and Merus orchestrated this so that Moro could absorb Merus' power?

Moro copies Merus' power, which would technically give him an Angel's powerset(and the rules to go along with it.) So once Moro uses his newfound Angel power, he is in violation of the Angel code, and Daishinkan has him erased.

So, this suggestion got pretty short shrift, but it made me think: how would people react if Merus's solution to the problem Moro presents were "non-conflictual" in some way?

For example, what if Merus revealed himself as an Angel, and offered Moro the chance to become the God of Destruction for Universe 7?

After all, Merus could make a pretty good case to the Grand Priest that Beerus doesn't do his job properly (I've seen lots of complaints in this vein from fans, and Beerus himself has admitted in this arc that others like Moro really do his job for him) and so should be replaced, and Moro already has power sufficient to replace Beerus (in Chapter 59, he had "power that transcends the very Gods", and he's much stronger as of Chapter 62). From Moro's perspective, getting sanction to do what comes naturally, and ascend to Godhood into the bargain, would probably be quite attractive. Also, he can devour the Earthlings at his leisure later, on some pretext.

From Merus's point of view, getting Moro made into a God of Destruction would put him under the Grand Priest's auspices rather than leaving him as a completely free agent - instead, he'd be obliged to destroy chiefly as the 'job' requires, and if Merus became his Guide Angel, he'd be able to guide Moro away from Earth unless it threatened the Cosmic Order. It would also demonstrate that he's learned the lesson about true Angelic impartiality that concerns Whis and the Grand Priest so much, becoming his enemy's accomplice for 'the greater good' and electing to serve alongside him. It would probably be the best shot he has of navigating his own dilemma, between saving his friends from the threat of Moro and preserving his own existence.

Also, this seems to fit with the general drift of the story in some ways - the rash interventions by the heroes in this arc have, overall, made Moro far more powerful than he otherwise would be, and their own countermeasures are as yet unfinished (Goku, it seems, isn't mastering Ultra Instinct any time soon, and Vegeta skipped almost all the Spirit Training on offer for the sake of developing an immediate counter to Moro) - they're "half-strong" by this point, and don't have an obvious way out. Really, at this point, another 'stay of execution' is what they need most (also setting up an opening for couple more arcs, before Moro returns for some reason). I guess it would also change up the dynamic here - Beerus has been an ally to the heroes for the whole of Super; changing the God of Destruction to an antagonist who they can't handle right now (who is on a leash, however loosely held, and growing stronger with every planet he destroys/devours) makes their position less secure as a whole, and provides a further impetus to perfect what they started while they live with the threat.

Just a thought.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

What if Whis and Merus orchestrated this so that Moro could absorb Merus' power?

Moro copies Merus' power, which would technically give him an Angel's powerset(and the rules to go along with it.) So once Moro uses his newfound Angel power, he is in violation of the Angel code, and Daishinkan has him erased.

So, this suggestion got pretty short shrift, but it made me think: how would people react if Merus's solution to the problem Moro presents were "non-conflictual" in some way?

For example, what if Merus revealed himself as an Angel, and offered Moro the chance to become the God of Destruction for Universe 7?

After all, Merus could make a pretty good case to the Grand Priest that Beerus doesn't do his job properly (I've seen lots of complaints in this vein from fans, and Beerus himself has admitted in this arc that others like Moro really do his job for him) and so should be replaced, and Moro already has power sufficient to replace Beerus (in Chapter 59, he had "power that transcends the very Gods", and he's much stronger as of Chapter 62). From Moro's perspective, getting sanction to do what comes naturally, and ascend to Godhood into the bargain, would probably be quite attractive. Also, he can devour the Earthlings at his leisure later, on some pretext.

From Merus's point of view, getting Moro made into a God of Destruction would put him under the Grand Priest's auspices rather than leaving him as a completely free agent - instead, he'd be obliged to destroy chiefly as the 'job' requires, and if Merus became his Guide Angel, he'd be able to guide Moro away from Earth unless it threatened the Cosmic Order. It would also demonstrate that he's learned the lesson about true Angelic impartiality that concerns Whis and the Grand Priest so much, becoming his enemy's accomplice for 'the greater good' and electing to serve alongside him. It would probably be the best shot he has of navigating his own dilemma, between saving his friends from the threat of Moro and preserving his own existence.

Also, this seems to fit with the general drift of the story in some ways - the rash interventions by the heroes in this arc have, overall, made Moro far more powerful than he otherwise would be, and their own countermeasures are as yet unfinished (Goku, it seems, isn't mastering Ultra Instinct any time soon, and Vegeta skipped almost all the Spirit Training on offer for the sake of developing an immediate counter to Moro) - they're "half-strong" by this point, and don't have an obvious way out. Really, at this point, another 'stay of execution' is what they need most (also setting up an opening for couple more arcs, before Moro returns for some reason). I guess it would also change up the dynamic here - Beerus has been an ally to the heroes for the whole of Super; changing the God of Destruction to an antagonist who they can't handle right now (who is on a leash, however loosely held, and growing stronger with every planet he destroys/devours) makes their position less secure as a whole, and provides a further impetus to perfect what they started while they live with the threat.

Just a thought.

Do you think Whis and Beerus are gonna appreciate that? I'm pretty sure Whis would get a bit offended his brother is now trying to steal his universe and goad some goat person into a destroyer position. Beerus won't take too kindly to being replaced by someone he doesn't even know or like, especially if his retirement ain't his choice.

[Kagari]

The dumbest thing is that the kids, who are now much older than they were in Buu arc, are intentionally left out of the fight.

In my opinion this is something Toriyama is stubborn about. It seems like he absolutely wants to keep them out of everything. Besides the Beerus arc, U6 tournament and Future Trunks arc (just in Kid Trunks’ case in the manga) they are completely oblivious of everything which has happened in Super.

Considering Toyotaro is writing this arc I wonder whose decision it was to leave the kids out of the fight. Maybe Toyotaro himself felt it would have been useless to feature the kids and decided to leave them out in favor of 17. But to be honest, I would have preferred it if the oblivious one this arc was 17 instead of Goten and Trunks. He’s been useless, and doesn’t feel like the same man who did so well in the Tournament of Power.

The kids could have been a nice change of pace. We barely even know them, as they for sure must have grown mentally since the Buu arc.

17 wasn't propped up nearly as much in the manga like he was in the anime ToP. I get the feeling Toyo might not care for him.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Do you think Whis and Beerus are gonna appreciate that? I'm pretty sure Whis would get a bit offended his brother is now trying to steal his universe and goad some goat person into a destroyer position. Beerus won't take too kindly to being replaced by someone he doesn't even know or like, especially if his retirement ain't his choice.

It's a fair question, for sure, but ultimately if it were to happen, what's Beerus going to do about it?

If he's not a God of Destruction any more, his opinion only matters insofar as he can actually challenge Moro on the spot and win - while I think a majority of people here probably believe that Beerus is stronger (and at least a few think he's way stronger), that's not established for sure (I'd say it's more like a guess either way - and even saying that is, in itself, a guess). I agree with you, I'd expect Beerus's reaction to be profoundly negative if something like this happened - but it would motivate him to help the heroes out, if only for the chance of getting his job back once Moro goes down.

Whis is a bit of a wildcard - he might be personally offended by such a manoeuvre, but he might also be admiring (or at least understanding) of how Merus applied the lesson of impartiality to get a more satisfactory outcome than what otherwise might have happened. He's tough to second-guess like that. But if he's truly neutral, he'll look at the good of the Universes (and there's at least a chance that he'd understand the argument that a more competent God of Destruction is a good thing), or at least bow to the Grand Priest's decision, even if he privately takes exception to it. And again, he'd have more than enough time on his hands to help Goku attain mastery of Ultra Instinct if he were quietly looking for a reversal of fortune - who'd be better placed?

I guess I thought of this because, looking at it narratively, a move like this would blow the options open for what could happen next - when I see a lot of comments are trying to figure out how the problem of Moro gets shut down ASAP, but also saying that all the solutions that do this are unsatisfactory (and I don't necessarily disagree), it makes me wonder whether anything like this is in the offing.

Of course, it could just end up being the most obvious solution instead

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Do you think Whis and Beerus are gonna appreciate that? I'm pretty sure Whis would get a bit offended his brother is now trying to steal his universe and goad some goat person into a destroyer position. Beerus won't take too kindly to being replaced by someone he doesn't even know or like, especially if his retirement ain't his choice.

It's a fair question, for sure, but ultimately if it were to happen, what's Beerus going to do about it?

If he's not a God of Destruction any more, his opinion only matters insofar as he can actually challenge Moro on the spot and win - while I think a majority of people here probably believe that Beerus is stronger (and at least a few think he's way stronger), that's not established for sure (I'd say it's more like a guess either way - and even saying that is, in itself, a guess). I agree with you, I'd expect Beerus's reaction to be profoundly negative if something like this happened - but it would motivate him to help the heroes out, if only for the chance of getting his job back once Moro goes down.

Whis is a bit of a wildcard - he might be personally offended by such a manoeuvre, but he might also be admiring (or at least understanding) of how Merus applied the lesson of impartiality to get a more satisfactory outcome than what otherwise might have happened. He's tough to second-guess like that. But if he's truly neutral, he'll look at the good of the Universes (and there's at least a chance that he'd understand the argument that a more competent God of Destruction is a good thing), or at least bow to the Grand Priest's decision, even if he privately takes exception to it. And again, he'd have more than enough time on his hands to help Goku attain mastery of Ultra Instinct if he were quietly looking for a reversal of fortune - who'd be better placed?

I guess I thought of this because, looking at it narratively, a move like this would blow the options open for what could happen next - when I see a lot of comments are trying to figure out how the problem of Moro gets shut down ASAP, but also saying that all the solutions that do this are unsatisfactory (and I don't necessarily disagree), it makes me wonder whether anything like this is in the offing.

Of course, it could just end up being the most obvious solution instead

But Whis would be out of job, meaning he can't function if Merus takes over with Moro. Whis would have to go back to the angel realm and I don't think Whis would appreciate just getting sidestepped like that. I bet Whis would be silently judging knowing he can't do anything and he'll have to wait for a universe of his own to appear.

[Peach]

I get it. The point is this is supposed to be bleak and their darkest hour. I get it already. But how much longer is this going to keep going? It's been this way for months. For months we've seen that Moro is stronger than everyone and is toying with them, and that everyone is out of their depth with him. Okay. I get it.

This is way too similar to Frieza on Namek. It's the same structure. Overwhelming villain, some hope spots with new heroes joining the battle, only to lose when the villain goes "Haha, I was just holding back."

It's tired. It could've been salvaged if Moro was even the least bit interesting as a character, but he's just there smirking and showing off how strong and invincible he is. He's just Perfect Cell, but without all the cool build up around him, or a foil in Gohan. He's nothing.

This is all nothing. I don't love it, I don't hate it; I'm completely ambivalent/apathetic. That's the worst reaction you could get as a storyteller. Ugh.

Pretty much how i feel to a tea

[youwhatsup]

What i like about this moro arc is that we finaly got a villain that actually feels like a threat

[Grand Marshal 1]

Kinda random, but am I the only one who wants Gohan to return to his Supreme Kai disciple?

I mean, they trained him in the Buu saga cause they mattered in the power scale (kinda) but I feel like if he retains his ordinary lifestyle on earth and simply acts under the Supreme Kais, training and learning many new interesting abilities, it would give him a goal of some sorts.

Be an actual, acknowledged protector of the creation. Piccolo should also start mixing up more with Guardian duties.

Its just that if the God route is the one that's gonna be followed, why restrict it to 2 individuals, when so many other interesting roles have been established in the past? (I mean, Goku and Vegeta are now in nature Super Saiyan Gods and could go for Candidate GoD)

[Matches Malone]

Kinda random, but am I the only one who wants Gohan to return to his Supreme Kai disciple?

I also think that's a good idea, and give him his own outfit while you're at it. At this point Gohan needs to form his own identity away from Piccolo and Goku, he needs to move on and become his own character.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Kinda random, but am I the only one who wants Gohan to return to his Supreme Kai disciple?

I also think that's a good idea, and give him his own outfit while you're at it. At this point Gohan needs to form his own identity away from Piccolo and Goku, he needs to move on and become his own character.

'See's Gohan happy living his life as a scholar with Videl and Pan and dislike having to fight and would rather spend time with his family'.....

Yeah, about that Malone, the writers might have different plans...because we know Gohan's priority list look like this.
1. Family.
2. Work/Money
3.Fighting.

[DBZ Macky]

Beerus himself has admitted in this arc that others like Moro really do his job for him

This makes me think - why is Beerus even a GoD? He doesn't like the job, and it's not like he's getting something out of it anyways from what we've seen. If anything, he's actually getting restricted by sharing a life-link with someone as prone to disasters as Shin.

Is he just doing it for the clout (the high position in the god hierarchy), or is it because becoming a GoD gives you greater power or something?
He could be doing it just to get Whis's coaching for free, but then again, see how easily Goku and Vegeta got the same treatment.

Also, I want to say - great username and picture lol.

'See's Gohan happy living his life as a scholar with Videl and Pan and dislike having to fight and would rather spend time with his family'.....

Yeah, about that Malone, the writers might have different plans...because we know Gohan's priority list look like this.
1. Family.
2. Work/Money
3.Fighting.

I think it's in the same vein as what I posted about Beerus, but what does Gohan even do? I don't see Gohan as the kind of guy who'd chase after money, so he's probably passionate about his work.
Why not incorporate his intellect in his fighting style or something?

I vaguely recall something about him writing a book about Ki manipulation in one of the Dragon Ball Online stories, wouldn't it be so cool if he could get into the science of things and use it to help the other fighters?

There's a multitude of ways this could happen, make him research the S-cells or whatever, and use that as an excuse to give Goten and Trunks Super Saiyan 2 or something. It would certainly help him carve out an identity, right now he's still just "Goku's incredibly strong son, with great potential", except back then he would actually surpass Goku from time to time, now he just "has the potential".

What i like about this moro arc is that we finaly got a villain that actually feels like a threat

Yeah, definitely. The closest we got was Infinite Zamasu / Zamasu merging with the universe, but that didn't last long enough to make an impact. Moro right now definitely feels like an actual threat, we can't even say for sure if the gods can bail the fighters out this time if Moro's allowed to grow even stronger.

[ZombieVito]

Infinite Zamasu was definitely a threat in the anime. Even Whis got worried a bit.

[Kagari]

Kinda random, but am I the only one who wants Gohan to return to his Supreme Kai disciple?

I also think that's a good idea, and give him his own outfit while you're at it. At this point Gohan needs to form his own identity away from Piccolo and Goku, he needs to move on and become his own character.

'See's Gohan happy living his life as a scholar with Videl and Pan and dislike having to fight and would rather spend time with his family'.....

Yeah, about that Malone, the writers might have different plans...because we know Gohan's priority list look like this.
1. Family.
2. Work/Money
3.Fighting.

He doesn't dislike having to fight, that's a gross misconception. Gohan actually does enjoy martial arts, just in a different way than his father does. His main development in Super continues to be maintaining his strength and improving so that he can help out, so.

[emperior]

Kinda random, but am I the only one who wants Gohan to return to his Supreme Kai disciple?

I also think that's a good idea, and give him his own outfit while you're at it. At this point Gohan needs to form his own identity away from Piccolo and Goku, he needs to move on and become his own character.

I agree that they should stop always pairing him up with Piccolo. But Supreme Kai clothes wouldn’t do it.
I would rather see him go back to his training gi he used when preparing for the budokai tenkaichi or to his Great Saiyaman gi.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I also think that's a good idea, and give him his own outfit while you're at it. At this point Gohan needs to form his own identity away from Piccolo and Goku, he needs to move on and become his own character.

'See's Gohan happy living his life as a scholar with Videl and Pan and dislike having to fight and would rather spend time with his family'.....

Yeah, about that Malone, the writers might have different plans...because we know Gohan's priority list look like this.
1. Family.
2. Work/Money
3.Fighting.

He doesn't dislike having to fight, that's a gross misconception. Gohan actually does enjoy martial arts, just in a different way than his father does. His main development in Super continues to be maintaining his strength and improving so that he can help out, so.

I mean yeah, but Gohan really does prefer things like work and family over fighting. The guy wants a life and would prefer not be on outer space adventures every time a threat shows up like his dad does. Honestly I think the only thing he dislikes is having destroyer tier planet brokers constantly attacking the planet and getting his face caved in trying to help.

[theherodjl]

All of this shit could've been avoided had Goku & Vegeta not fucked around in the first place.
They initially didn't go after Moro at full power. They decided to fight one-on-one. They (unknowingly)allowed Moro to absorb their energy. They came so underprepared that Moro was able to get the upperhand and get his wishes. They didn't try to fuse and instead wanted to beat Moro in their own, individual ways. The training they underwent wasn't enough. They allowed Moro to make a getaway and reobtain his power and gain new abilities by eating 7-3. And they developed no contingency in case Moro might have something else up his sleeve.
As much as Goku & Vegeta are touted as being geniuses in battle, I don't know how they could've done worse against this particular opponent. Their victory at the ToP and against Broly seems to have inflated their egos enough to delude them into thinking Moro was just another opponent.

[Kagari]

'See's Gohan happy living his life as a scholar with Videl and Pan and dislike having to fight and would rather spend time with his family'.....

Yeah, about that Malone, the writers might have different plans...because we know Gohan's priority list look like this.
1. Family.
2. Work/Money
3.Fighting.

He doesn't dislike having to fight, that's a gross misconception. Gohan actually does enjoy martial arts, just in a different way than his father does. His main development in Super continues to be maintaining his strength and improving so that he can help out, so.

I mean yeah, but Gohan really does prefer things like work and family over fighting. The guy wants a life and would prefer not be on outer space adventures every time a threat shows up like his dad does. Honestly I think the only thing he dislikes is having destroyer tier planet brokers constantly attacking the planet and getting his face caved in trying to help.

His dad isn't on outer space adventures either. Most of DB's story is contained on Earth. People love to push the Gohan and family thing but really most of his screen time in the modern content is... fighting. The family stuff is mostly a background item that exists to motivate him.

[Miracles]

Moro beating up the lesser and keeping them alive at the same time in order to absorb them felt like a big waste of a chapter.
The plot did not move until Merus and Dende showed up. Oh, Krillin is also coming with the Senzu beans.

However, Merus showing up to stall Moro while Dende heals is going to be interesting.
Maybe Merus can go all out while they are in Moro's dome. Maybe Moro's so strong that he has to.

Even tho I'm disappointed with the chapter, I'm excited how things unfold from here on out.

[BWri]

The dumbest thing is that the kids, who are now much older than they were in Buu arc, are intentionally left out of the fight.

In my opinion this is something Toriyama is stubborn about. It seems like he absolutely wants to keep them out of everything. Besides the Beerus arc, U6 tournament and Future Trunks arc (just in Kid Trunks’ case in the manga) they are completely oblivious of everything which has happened in Super.

Considering Toyotaro is writing this arc I wonder whose decision it was to leave the kids out of the fight. Maybe Toyotaro himself felt it would have been useless to feature the kids and decided to leave them out in favor of 17. But to be honest, I would have preferred it if the oblivious one this arc was 17 instead of Goten and Trunks. He’s been useless, and doesn’t feel like the same man who did so well in the Tournament of Power.

The kids could have been a nice change of pace. We barely even know them, as they for sure must have grown mentally since the Buu arc.

At this point they are hugely underdeveloped and I believe Toriyama has no interested in them. I'm okay when it comes to limiting Saiyan involvement so I'm fine with them being left out. I'd rather they have their own arc than to show up on a battlefield like this to get beaten worse than everyone else or to crack jokes. Plus it gives more opportunity to flesh out Gohan, Piccolo, 17, and 18 which I like. Though to be fair, it would make more sense for them to show up to help, since literally every other Z-Fighter has helped in some way.