"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:06 pm

You know this chapter was getting good until page 25... I mean really, do we really needed that scene of Moro punching through Goku's chest?

Okay, it's nice and still on point with Toriyama could do in the original manga, but that sh*t didn't amounted to nothing. Just Moro showing how "badass" he is.

I wonder if Toyotaro is taking lessons with Salagir's Multiverse as we are on this same stage for months now: just like Majin Bra in the fan comic.

Goku and Vegeta training were nothing but useless and in the end we will have a NOBODY that might solve the main conflict of this arc.

Oh gently caress, Toyotaro, gently caress you and your stupid plot writing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:27 pm

Man, that line hurts even more from Piccolo as he’s one of the best analysts when battling, even worked as a teacher for Goten and Trunks. He was the one who noticed Goku being weak from virus for example and now he is getting senile from old age probably :?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:01 pm

Noah wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:06 pm
You know this chapter was getting good until page 25... I mean really, do we really needed that scene of Moro punching through Goku's chest?

Okay, it's nice and still on point with Toriyama could do in the original manga, but that sh*t didn't amounted to nothing. Just Moro showing how "badass" he is.

I wonder if Toyotaro is taking lessons with Salagir's Multiverse as we are on this same stage for months now: just like Majin Bra in the fan comic.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by EGonzo » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:03 pm

MCDaveG wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:27 pm
Man, that line hurts even more from Piccolo as he’s one of the best analysts when battling, even worked as a teacher for Goten and Trunks. He was the one who noticed Goku being weak from virus for example and now he is getting senile from old age probably :?
It's impressive considering he's only a little older than Gohan.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
We see that behavior outside the tournament though, when Towale is being attacked by the crap monster. Which is why it's not an assumption, but a defined characteristic. And again, he has development throughout the tournament that shows a prideful side that ends in acceptance of his reliance on his comrade.
I would say that thought should have always had it ... it is not something that he have learned when going through that experience in the top like the case of jiren
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
She wasn't humiliated in every battle though? Frieza literally compliments her strength. Again, she also manages to hold back Dyspo so Cabba can save Kale. That in and of itself was an outright victory given the end result. That isn't a matter of opinion..
ok but I can say that yajirobe cut vegeta's tail and say that it is a feat for the character however it is because yajirobe is a character that is generally humiliated ...and we settle for that for him because nobody expected anything from him
caulifla and kale are supposed to be new characters, main warriors and the relevant for the battle
but we have a completely unnecessary battle with cabba where she is humiliated ..
and then we have a battle with frieza where she loses again ....the scene with dyspo wasn't even battle she caught him off guard for a moment Where is the genius in combat supposed to be?
If they are not going to present caulifla as an important character that she should be why they do not simply make cabba merge with kale? so that at least has sense all the attention he was receiving in comparison
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
Cabba is also a member of the universe's space patrol, and is implied to be known for that role his universe, not just on his planet. Again, if Champa wants more Saiyans, it's within reason to have Cabba seek them out.

Whis was also able to name all the remaining planets with life. The implication seems to be that he can gather some kind of data regarding how many of a certain life form, or life in general remain, but not the specifications beyond that. There's nothing that suggests angels have the ability to find the strongest of a certain life form, or that would've certainly come in handy before the Tournament of Power.

Again, if you have an issue with Cabba being the one to find Caulifla and Kale, you should also have an issue with Goku being the one to find participants on Earth. It's even more egregious, because Whis actually knows most of the people recruited on some personal level at the point of recruitment.
that same 1 of many warriors on the planet ...
my problem is rather that whis did not find broly in his first search and that vados did not find caulifla in her first search but she found a bear ... it also means that cabba knew stronger warriors than him before but never said anything
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
I mean it's not really that much of a convenience when most of the universe doesn't know how to feel ki. I honestly don't believe Cabba knows how to feel ki either. He didn't bring Kale along because he sensed her power, he brought her along because she stole an amulet from his hands while he was Super Saiyan. Heck, not a single Saiyan in U7 could sense ki before Goku was able to. Frieza still can't do it, at least in the manga. .
i think cabba felt the power of vegeta in his battle against frost and then in his battle with him
in the anime caulifla could feel the ki reason why she realized that the transformation was not a cheap trick which is fine because she is supposed to be a genius in fights but that caulifla cannot feel ki only makes her look like a dumb
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
You realize also that Goku ended up stepping in when he saw how strong Kale was to save Frieza right?

Anyhow, it's within reason if you don't like that certain characters didn't interact with each other during the tournament, but that doesn't affect the overarching developments or characterization for those characters, which is the main point of this debate. If something doesn't happen that's not "forced," it's the exact opposite of force, it's inaction. It can be argued that if Toyotaro suddenly tried to shove Goku into Caulifla's fight that'd be more forced than having them not interact at all. Likewise with Saonel and Pirina..
agree but it would have been interesting if at least had "dialogues" between the two

my point really is that it makes him feel too much special that only one character establishes "connections" with other warriors
it's as if piccolo had never met dende in namek
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
Dyspo also loses to 17, running away to try and help Toppo but noting himself that he doesn't have enough energy after a very brief battle to make it back to the arena. That fight doesn't say anything about Dyspo's strength, only that 17 is stronger than him. Possibly by quite a lot. But this becomes a strength discussion at this point, and there's another thread for that.
ok
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
His contributions by their very nature are secondary during the tournament. He's the support for Kale and Caulifla in the end. He's also the first Saiyan introduced from U6 and developed a rapport with Vegeta. I find it very strange that you'd rather his character were abandoned instead of used to supplement the newer U6 Saiyans.
I don't think I can reply without having to repeat what I had said before but I will try ... taking away the fact the conveniences in the story
I feel that the participation of cabba negatively affects that of others since in the end caulifla and kale are the ones who are going to face gohan ... being kefla in the plot the last hope of universe 6.
so they should have more development, more victories, interactions and better dialogues.
the manga had no problem eliminating krillin and tien shinhan quickly because they were not going to provide anything ... for gave space to new characters
in the anime it works because caulifla is better than cabba in every way and thanks to her, kale manages to control her transformation being the best election to merge with her while in the manga .. she seems unnecessary to me if cabba is presenting as more reasonable, more skilled and more capable because it does not simply merge with kale makes that decision incoherent
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
Jiren, Toppo, and Dyspo are altogether still the three most important members of the Pride Troopers. Dyspo's importance literally shines through his role as support for the others. He's actually the one who gets Jiren to turn tail and be careful when Dyspo points out they're dealing with an invisible fighter. When Toppo is in trouble Dyspo is the one who makes the save (or tries to in the end.)

It's ironic because you criticize Cabba having the same role for his own team as "forced" because it gave him a level of individual importance you felt he shouldn't have. A support role that shines via rescues or general aid for a team seemingly only provides individuality for a character when you don't like them.

Well I'm sorry, but if you take an issue with Cabba's aid in the tournament, even though Cabba was weak, then you have to accept that Dyspo was also an exceptional (and indeed, the third, possibly even second most important) member of his team through his actions, regardless of his strength.
the comparison is out of place ... because unlike cabba dyspo it had not appeared before and it is not stealing space from other characters
hit a character that appeared before quickly is defeated the tournament having finished her role leaving space for other characters

I have no complaint with cabba in the anime and hit in both versions because it does not overshadow other characters
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
It's not about the characterization from that fact, itt's about a certain level of chemistry via the contrast (which is noted by Kefla herself.) At the very least it's not as though there's "nothing" from Gohan fighting Kefla, which was my point in bringing that up.
the same because .. goku has more similarities with kefla due to his love for the battles what makes them have chemistry and there is the fact that goku is a warrior who has achieved his level based on hard training while kefla is a fusion created from warriors who are specials or have natural talent

the one of gohan and kefla although we take into account that gohan does not use transformations recently this was not built throughout the tournament and both are "special" making it still feel empty and worse are the dialogues with gohan denying his Saiyan heritage

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:43 pm

TKA wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:49 am
DiscountDabi wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:16 pm
He really has though. I’m just gonna link this video and let it speak for itself https://youtu.be/5UeHMORYgQQ
I'm not watching some youtube video to get your point.

This speaks for itself.

But since I'm courteous, I'll quote it.
Would like to clear up something I've seen on twitter before it gets here (or it might've gotten here already; I've not read every post). Vegeta has only ever misjudged one character's strength.

1. He was stronger than everyone during the Saiyan arc. It was sneak attacks and combinations he could've never seen coming that made him lose.

2. On Namek, he judged correctly that he could and would beat Zarbon. He lost because he had no idea transformations existed, and that allowed Zarbon to stomp him.

3. He fully knew they were outclassed by Frieza, and told Frieza to transform because it was better they knew what they were up against. His only mistake was not realizing how many transformations Frieza had, or the degree to which each transformation made his power grow.

4. Based on his encounters with 19 and 20, he reasoned he could beat 17 and 18. He had a slight advantage over 18 in the early part of their fight until it came to light that 16, 17 and 18 have infinite energy and would never tire. She outlasted him. Again, he lost because of something he could've never predicted.

5. Cell. The usual happened where his opponent pulled something out he could've never seen coming, but he still completely misjudged Perfect Cell's strength and got wrecked for it. This is the only time he was a bad judge of strength.

6. He rightfully understood he couldn't beat Buu and sacrificed himself. His attack completely obliterated Buu. The only reason Buu didn't die was because he had insane regeneration that put Cell's to shame.

So while it might seem to be an incredibly dumb thing for Piccolo to say, if you analyze it he's pretty much correct. Still, it's a weird thing to throw out there when it isn't that obvious and would require a reader to go back and analyze stuff.
The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:11 am
The last time I had this discussion, somebody was trying to extend Piccolo's statement to hidden abilities that Vegeta couldn't possibly have accounted for, even though Piccolo was clearly referring to how Vegeta tends to read his opponent's power at the moment. This person kept missing that point and was insistent that context didn't matter.

I don't think there's any way of resolving this squabble when there are so many instances of Vegeta's confidence being completely misplaced. It's just an odd (but not technically inaccurate) line of dialogue that caused more debate than it should have.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:16 am
Did people forget about the Future Trunks arc? The second time Goku and co. went to the future, Vegeta, by his own admission, devised no plan at all to deal with Goku Black and Zamasu (knowing full well that one had Rosé and the other had immortality). Instead he simply rushed in to fight Black and got demolished again. So Piccolo is wrong, and by extension Toyotaro is wrong.
This isn't relevant to what Piccolo said.

Vegeta often "rushes in" to fight his opponents, even in circumstances where he's not necessarily convinced of his own superiority. He did it with Super Saiyan Black after Zamasu healed him, but wasn't aware that Black could still take advantage of zenkai after they already reached their natural limit with that method. He did it with Beerus in the Universe Survival arc. He did it with Moro after Moro absorbed Seven-Three.

None of these examples reflect misreading or underestimation. Vegeta flings himself headfirst into fights without regard for his well-being, even when he knows he might end up on the short end.
Great posts! I would even like to add something about Vegeta vs Perfect Cell. If we look at the convo in context, the reason why Vegeta let Cell become perfect was to see if he would be stronger or not. Vegeta made no claims that Cell's perfect form could not beat him. BTW, Vegeta was indeed still stronger than Perfect Cell, while holding back. Even Android 16 states this fact. Still Vegeta even knew Cell was hiding power. However, just like with all the other times Vegeta gets surprised, it's due to an enemy concealing strength, has extra transformation or an unknown special ability.

I don't see where Piccolo's narrative about Vegeta is inaccurate.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:06 pm

Ok, so this would never happen in a Million years. But wouldn’t it be interesting is Krillin or Yamcha went to Fortune Teller Baba and had Devilman teach them the Devilmite beam.

I would prefer it be Yamcha but I wouldn’t be mad if it was Yamcha who learned it. If the future of Dragon Ball will be more technique based I’d like for someone in the main cast to pick this up. As I said I’d prefer it to be Yamcha since he just became relevant again in this arc for a little bit.

Think of him like the Glass Cannon of the bunch. If he gets a good solid hit from the bad guy he’s going down, but if he get hit them with the devilmite beam then its over.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
I would say that thought should have always had it ... it is not something that he have learned when going through that experience in the top like the case of jiren
If you pay close attention to how Toppo treats his fight with Vegeta, there is actual progression by the end of his battle. Vegeta was his opponent in the tournament. And Toppo gives that up when he realizes he can't beat him.
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
ok but I can say that yajirobe cut vegeta's tail and say that it is a feat for the character however it is because yajirobe is a character that is generally humiliated ...and we settle for that for him because nobody expected anything from him
caulifla and kale are supposed to be new characters, main warriors and the relevant for the battle
but we have a completely unnecessary battle with cabba where she is humiliated ..
and then we have a battle with frieza where she loses again ....the scene with dyspo wasn't even battle she caught him off guard for a moment Where is the genius in combat supposed to be?
If they are not going to present caulifla as an important character that she should be why they do not simply make cabba merge with kale? so that at least has sense all the attention he was receiving in comparison
First of all Yajirobe wasn't ever really humiliated either. He's generally a gag character, but for all his fights up until the Saiyan saga he had been consistently one of the strongest characters in the series, the only one who could match Goku as a child in fact. His only loss in the original manga is against Kami (who at that point is painted as the actual strongest fighter in the world besides Piccolo.) Yajirobe being able to cut Vegeta's tail off isn't an exception, it's the cherry on top of the sort of character he had been until that moment, before he effectively retired as a fighter. I really don't understand why you'd bring him up as an example of someone who has faced "humiliation."

Anyhow, yes Caulifla and Kale are supposed to be new characters, so Cabba, who has the connection to their homeworld, was the best character to introduce to them. Also, why is every loss a "humiliation" to you? The fight showed that Caulifla was stronger than Cabba in base form. The fight was an excuse to show Caulifla the form and provide a fun action sequence during the recruitment of some important characters. The fight itself basically served the same purpose as the fight against the monster on Towale. Introducing the new characters, and providing action for the chapter.

And I really don't know what you expect. Maybe this is also more suited for the strength debate, but Caulifla is literally just a regular Super Saiyan. She doesn't even have SS2 in the manga. Against Frieza and Dyspo she did better than anyone could've possibly expected. Cabba didn't even get to land a single decent blow against Frieza before Kale raged out. Caulifla isn't anywhere near the level of the strongest fighters in the tournament. She got more than enough attention before she fused into Kefla to create a competent fighter. As a side note, the decision to fuse her with Kale in the manga (instead of as you suggest, Cabba) has several layers to it. She's the one who stole the potara. She's stronger than Cabba. And she has the closest connection to Kale. It's really that simple.
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
that same 1 of many warriors on the planet ...
my problem is rather that whis did not find broly in his first search and that vados did not find caulifla in her first search but she found a bear ... it also means that cabba knew stronger warriors than him before but never said anything
Actually, Whis points out that "most of the Saiyans" are on Earth, implying he actually detected Broly and Tarble but simply never noticed them because they decided to check Earth (and King Kai's) for the Super Saiyan God first. Cabba also had no reason to look for stronger warriors for the U6 vs U7 tournament, because no one was in any real danger. The second the universe was on the line and Champa asked for more Saiyans he got the strongest fighters on his home planet.
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
i think cabba felt the power of vegeta in his battle against frost and then in his battle with him
in the anime caulifla could feel the ki reason why she realized that the transformation was not a cheap trick which is fine because she is supposed to be a genius in fights but that caulifla cannot feel ki only makes her look like a dumb
Cabba at no point in the manga does anything to suggest he can sense ki. I just re-checked the chapters. Again, sensing ki at all is a rare trait in the universes, even for those who can use their energy. Saying Caulifla not being able to feel ki makes dumb is like saying Frieza is dumb, or Broly is dumb. It's not fair to use "ki sense" as the bar for how intelligent or prodigious a fighter is, otherwise you're saying that's the case for a majority of powerful characters in this series.
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
I don't think I can reply without having to repeat what I had said before but I will try ... taking away the fact the conveniences in the story
I feel that the participation of cabba negatively affects that of others since in the end caulifla and kale are the ones who are going to face gohan ... being kefla in the plot the last hope of universe 6.
so they should have more development, more victories, interactions and better dialogues.
the manga had no problem eliminating krillin and tien shinhan quickly because they were not going to provide anything ... for gave space to new characters
in the anime it works because caulifla is better than cabba in every way and thanks to her, kale manages to control her transformation being the best election to merge with her while in the manga .. she seems unnecessary to me if cabba is presenting as more reasonable, more skilled and more capable because it does not simply merge with kale makes that decision incoherent
First again, I have to point out that as I've described 'til now, the "conveniences" you ascribed to Cabba aren't really just Cabba being given a role for the sake of it. I get you hate Cabba a lot (and you really love Caulifla) but it's just not fair to suggest that Cabba going to Sadala, his home planet, to find more Saiyans, of which he is, is somehow contrived.

Anyhow, Cabba's presence, as I've said, supplements the other Universe 6 Saiyans. If you take out Cabba you don't get more victories/interactions for Caulifla and Kale. Goku was never particularly interested in there being other Saiyans in the first place. He certainly didn't feel any way toward Cabba. If you take away Cabba you actually remove another experienced Saiyan that's from their universe. You remove a character that connects to both Caulifla and Kale already, you're asking to remove any insight and development from Kale that came from her interactions with Cabba. You're asking to remove any fight or chemistry between Cabba and Caulifla in their introductory chapter (that chemistry stemming from a rogue Saiyan meeting with a member of Sadala's army elite, who can teach her Super Saiyan.)

The Universe 6 Saiyans, in my opinion, worked best as a trio, not a duo. The manga didn't make Caulifla or Kale sideline to Cabba, far from it in fact. The majority of all the action from the trio came from Caulifla and Kale. Cabba just played the support role and helped provide a form of progress for both of them.
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
the comparison is out of place ... because unlike cabba dyspo it had not appeared before and it is not stealing space from other characters
hit a character that appeared before quickly is defeated the tournament having finished her role leaving space for other characters

I have no complaint with cabba in the anime and hit in both versions because it does not overshadow other characters
Look, I'm just gonna say it, your "Cabba stole space from other characters" point isn't valid. Taking Cabba out doesn't mean Caulifla would've done more. Toyotaro clearly just wanted to give her the fight against Frieza. She isn't strong enough on her own to make any kind of impact narratively against other fighters by herself in the manga, and as I said before, Kale's purpose was to go berserk to foreshadow Broly.

Dyspo had about as much importance in the tournament as Cabba did, so I don't know why you're saying the comparison is out of place. Dyspo actually had more appearances, more fights, and was more successful at aiding his team than Cabba. If anything, Dyspo "stole space" more than Cabba ever did. So again, if you want to have an issue with Cabba, there's no reason for you not to have an issue with Dyspo either. Cabba having appeared in the U6 vs U7 tournament shouldn't have an impact on this discussion, because he had a minor role in that arc and only one fight at that point anyhow. Which was only a few pages in a single chapter.

I seriously can't see how Cabba (who again, was just in a support role that was initially used to introduce the characters he has every reason to introduce) "overshadowed" anybody. I'm just going to end this particular bit on the fact that Cabba's role in the tournament had no negative impact on the characterization or development of other characters. He had a relatively minor role in the arc as a whole, (his only fight without Caulifla was in the background against Za Preecho) and the main contribution was the fact other characters played off and developed from his presence. It just isn't fair to say that his presence negatively impacted the tournament as a whole, let alone the idea that it negatively impacted the characterization and development of other characters (the topic which I must remind you, is the reason behind this debate.)
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:41 pm
the same because .. goku has more similarities with kefla due to his love for the battles what makes them have chemistry and there is the fact that goku is a warrior who has achieved his level based on hard training while kefla is a fusion created from warriors who are specials or have natural talent

the one of gohan and kefla although we take into account that gohan does not use transformations recently this was not built throughout the tournament and both are "special" making it still feel empty and worse are the dialogues with gohan denying his Saiyan heritage
Goku's focus in the manga is explicitly on the strongest fighter in the tournament. Having him sidetrack from that to try and fight Kefla would have gone against his character in the manga continuity of the arc, who tried to ignore other fighters like Hit and Toppo to try and go after Jiren, only sidetracking briefly when another teammate was in danger. As far as contrast goes, Gohan was actually a much better foil to Kefla than Goku, for the reasons I described in my previous post.

Why does it matter that Gohan's ability wasn't built throughout the tournament? His arc wasn't exclusively contained to the Tournament of Power. It's just not a valid complaint. That contrast is there regardless of if it was developed now or at the start of Dragon Ball. And Gohan didn't deny his Saiyan heritage, he denied relying on transformations anymore, which every other Saiyan including the one he's fighting does.

Don't get me wrong, the fight between Gohan and Kefla feels empty, but that's because of the lack of time given to the fight, not any lack of chemistry between the characters themselves.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
If you pay close attention to how Toppo treats his fight with Vegeta, there is actual progression by the end of his battle. Vegeta was his opponent in the tournament. And Toppo gives that up when he realizes he can't beat him.
what else could he do? he could only accept his defeat I think that is what a noble soldier would do when he saw that his opponent is superior another serious thing if toppo was someone who would not accept losing ... I can take it as a characterization but not that his attitude be different from before
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
1.-First of all Yajirobe wasn't ever really humiliated either. He's generally a gag character, but for all his fights up until the Saiyan saga he had been consistently one of the strongest characters in the series, the only one who could match Goku as a child in fact. His only loss in the original manga is against Kami (who at that point is painted as the actual strongest fighter in the world besides Piccolo.) Yajirobe being able to cut Vegeta's tail off isn't an exception, it's the cherry on top of the sort of character he had been until that moment, before he effectively retired as a fighter. I really don't understand why you'd bring him up as an example of someone who has faced "humiliation."

2.-Anyhow, yes Caulifla and Kale are supposed to be new characters, so Cabba, who has the connection to their homeworld, was the best character to introduce to them. Also, why is every loss a "humiliation" to you? The fight showed that Caulifla was stronger than Cabba in base form. The fight was an excuse to show Caulifla the form and provide a fun action sequence during the recruitment of some important characters. The fight itself basically served the same purpose as the fight against the monster on Towale. Introducing the new characters, and providing action for the chapter.

3.-And I really don't know what you expect. Maybe this is also more suited for the strength debate, but Caulifla is literally just a regular Super Saiyan. She doesn't even have SS2 in the manga. Against Frieza and Dyspo she did better than anyone could've possibly expected. Cabba didn't even get to land a single decent blow against Frieza before Kale raged out. Caulifla isn't anywhere near the level of the strongest fighters in the tournament. She got more than enough attention before she fused into Kefla to create a competent fighter. As a side note, the decision to fuse her with Kale in the manga (instead of as you suggest, Cabba) has several layers to it. She's the one who stole the potara. She's stronger than Cabba. And she has the closest connection to Kale. It's really that simple.
1.-I take it as a means of reference of what is expected of a character .. his progress is little but for someone who should have a small role it is fine
2.-you remember that in the anime many complained about some unnecessary fights in the recruitment of which I agree .. I would say that this fight fight in the manga is comparable ....
It is because it seems to me the most unnecessary fight I have ever seen and just to make cabba look good ... again in the anime it does not exist which seems perfect to me since it shows that Caulifla is smart enough to understand that the ssjj transformation It is not a trick and gives more validity to the "genius" of combat.
I wouldn't mind if it weren't her only two fights .. xd yeah that's a problem if your character is going to have an important role ... lose presence
3-I mean there are 80 fighters, maybe she could have fought with a pride trooper and defeated at least but she fought with frieza ...
cabba did not get it because it was golden frieza ...in the manga it is never mentioned that cabba is weaker
since when "it's closer" to kale it means something to merge with her because vados only mentions the ability
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
Actually, Whis points out that "most of the Saiyans" are on Earth, implying he actually detected Broly and Tarble but simply never noticed them because they decided to check Earth (and King Kai's) for the Super Saiyan God first. Cabba also had no reason to look for stronger warriors for the U6 vs U7 tournament, because no one was in any real danger. The second the universe was on the line and Champa asked for more Saiyans he got the strongest fighters on his home planet.
I would say that if he was looking for strong saiyans they would make sure that they would choose the strongest ...
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
Cabba at no point in the manga does anything to suggest he can sense ki. I just re-checked the chapters. Again, sensing ki at all is a rare trait in the universes, even for those who can use their energy. Saying Caulifla not being able to feel ki makes dumb is like saying Frieza is dumb, or Broly is dumb. It's not fair to use "ki sense" as the bar for how intelligent or prodigious a fighter is, otherwise you're saying that's the case for a majority of powerful characters in this series..
now that i remember vegeta tells cabba to feel like kale's power diminishing
frieza can feel the power of broly in the movie
the difference is that broly lived alone on a planet with his father who did not know how to do it and anyway the he has much more achievements than caulifla
I'm not saying ... the series shows that children of 8 and 9 years can do ...
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
First again, I have to point out that as I've described 'til now, the "conveniences" you ascribed to Cabba aren't really just Cabba being given a role for the sake of it. I get you hate Cabba a lot (and you really love Caulifla) but it's just not fair to suggest that Cabba going to Sadala, his home planet, to find more Saiyans, of which he is, is somehow contrived..
it depends i just hate cabba's participation in the manga as I said you don't bother me in the anime because all 3 have individual achievements ... caulifla and cabba relate to other saiyans and all 3 have development as warrior
in the manga I just wouldn't have felt bad if the first fight in sadala hadn't happened or if at least caulifla had been the one to suggest that kale participate
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
Anyhow, Cabba's presence, as I've said, supplements the other Universe 6 Saiyans. If you take out Cabba you don't get more victories/interactions for Caulifla and Kale. Goku was never particularly interested in there being other Saiyans in the first place. He certainly didn't feel any way toward Cabba. If you take away Cabba you actually remove another experienced Saiyan that's from their universe. You remove a character that connects to both Caulifla and Kale already, you're asking to remove any insight and development from Kale that came from her interactions with Cabba. You're asking to remove any fight or chemistry between Cabba and Caulifla in their introductory chapter (that chemistry stemming from a rogue Saiyan meeting with a member of Sadala's army elite, who can teach her Super Saiyan.)

The Universe 6 Saiyans, in my opinion, worked best as a trio, not a duo. The manga didn't make Caulifla or Kale sideline to Cabba, far from it in fact. The majority of all the action from the trio came from Caulifla and Kale. Cabba just played the support role and helped provide a form of progress for both of them.
interactions? in sadala they were enemies later they fought then "off panel" and then all are friends ... there is nothing natural there but i will say that in the anime their interaction also fails miserably ...
cabba's only natural and interesting interaction is with vegeta
I mean that depends on the script you use ... I can delete cabba and nothing changes
I can put fords finding caulifla and kale which would be consistent
I can put vegeta or goku teaching caulifla and kale transformations which would work the same especially with goku who has a facility to make friends unlike vegeta
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
Look, I'm just gonna say it, your "Cabba stole space from other characters" point isn't valid. Taking Cabba out doesn't mean Caulifla would've done more. Toyotaro clearly just wanted to give her the fight against Frieza. She isn't strong enough on her own to make any kind of impact narratively against other fighters by herself in the manga, and as I said before, Kale's purpose was to go berserk to foreshadow Broly. .
I never said that "taking out" ... that's you said with which we eliminated the first fight or that caulifla be realizing the power of kale is enough
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:14 pm
Dyspo had about as much importance in the tournament as Cabba did, so I don't know why you're saying the comparison is out of place. Dyspo actually had more appearances, more fights, and was more successful at aiding his team than Cabba. If anything, Dyspo "stole space" more than Cabba ever did. So again, if you want to have an issue with Cabba, there's no reason for you not to have an issue with Dyspo either. Cabba having appeared in the U6 vs U7 tournament shouldn't have an impact on this discussion, because he had a minor role in that arc and only one fight at that point anyhow. Which was only a few pages in a single chapter.

I seriously can't see how Cabba (who again, was just in a support role that was initially used to introduce the characters he has every reason to introduce) "overshadowed" anybody. I'm just going to end this particular bit on the fact that Cabba's role in the tournament had no negative impact on the characterization or development of other characters. He had a relatively minor role in the arc as a whole, (his only fight without Caulifla was in the background against Za Preecho) and the main contribution was the fact other characters played off and developed from his presence. It just isn't fair to say that his presence negatively impacted the tournament as a whole, let alone the idea that it negatively impacted the characterization and development of other characters (the topic which I must remind you, is the reason behind this debate.).
As I said cabba and hit had already had development and participation in the last tournament, so it was good that they left their space to the other new characters ... also in the script they were not going to do much
if jiren, dyspo and toppo were going to stay until the end against universe 7 they could have had more participation ... especially having 4 warriors as final opponents
that's why I say the comparison is out of place because in the end universe 11 was more important than universe 6

ok but it seems to me that you are misinterpreting my words I can say the same of 17 in the anime that angered the fans of gohan because he was eliminated before the android but at least his participation had a purpose in the script at the end of the tournament.

I just think that the progress and victories of the 3 could be shown without feeling as unequal as they were if you do not think so ok, and I will leave this topic there

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:39 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
what else could he do? he could only accept his defeat I think that is what a noble soldier would do when he saw that his opponent is superior another serious thing if toppo was someone who would not accept losing ... I can take it as a characterization but not that his attitude be different from before
He had the option to try and defy the idea of losing to Vegeta, which one would expect given his prior viewing of Vegeta as a "lesser being." But instead he accepts his defeat and (falls into the overarching theme of the arc because) he relies on Jiren. That is development.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
2.-you remember that in the anime many complained about some unnecessary fights in the recruitment of which I agree .. I would say that this fight fight in the manga is comparable ....
It is because it seems to me the most unnecessary fight I have ever seen and just to make cabba look good ... again in the anime it does not exist which seems perfect to me since it shows that Caulifla is smart enough to understand that the ssjj transformation It is not a trick and gives more validity to the "genius" of combat.
I wouldn't mind if it weren't her only two fights .. xd yeah that's a problem if your character is going to have an important role ... lose presence
3-I mean there are 80 fighters, maybe she could have fought with a pride trooper and defeated at least but she fought with frieza ...
cabba did not get it because it was golden frieza ...in the manga it is never mentioned that cabba is weaker
since when "it's closer" to kale it means something to merge with her because vados only mentions the ability
The fight itself is incredibly short though, only taking up a few pages. It's absolutely necessary for the context of Caulifla learning about Super Saiyan and Cabba choosing to recruit Kale.

The Pride Troopers are deliberately set up in the manga to be this invincible perfectly coordinated team in the manga. Having Caulifla, a regular Super Saiyan knock out even one of them by herself would have gone against what Toyotaro was trying to portray in that the entirety of Universe 11 was a threat. If she was going to defeat anyone she would've had to fight against one of the fodder from the other universes, but that would've muddied the pacing because U7 and U11 wouldn't be involved.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
I would say that if he was looking for strong saiyans they would make sure that they would choose the strongest ...
And they did that, by entrusting it to someone who knew Sadala better than they do while they themselves searched for other fighters in the universe.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
now that i remember vegeta tells cabba to feel like kale's power diminishing
frieza can feel the power of broly in the movie
the difference is that broly lived alone on a planet with his father who did not know how to do it and anyway the he has much more achievements than caulifla
I'm not saying ... the series shows that children of 8 and 9 years can do ...
Vegeta says that he himself can sense Kale's power diminishing. Cabba doesn't sense Kale's power at any point.

Literally no Saiyan before Goku knew how to sense energy. It makes sense Goten and Trunks can, because they were literally raised by martial artists who've had that ability for years at that point. No one in Dragon Ball (at least in the manga anyhow) just learns how to sense energy without being told that it's something they can do on their own.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
it depends i just hate cabba's participation in the manga as I said you don't bother me in the anime because all 3 have individual achievements ... caulifla and cabba relate to other saiyans and all 3 have development as warrior
in the manga I just wouldn't have felt bad if the first fight in sadala hadn't happened or if at least caulifla had been the one to suggest that kale participate
As I said, the fight in Sadala is necessary. I can understand not liking that Caulifla's relationship with Kale is different in the manga, but that itself doesn't involve Cabba at all. You can't have the plot point that Kale is hiding her power from Caulifla and also have Caulifla suggest to include Kale. It'd be contradictory.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
interactions? in sadala they were enemies later they fought then "off panel" and then all are friends ... there is nothing natural there but i will say that in the anime their interaction also fails miserably ...
cabba's only natural and interesting interaction is with vegeta
I mean that depends on the script you use ... I can delete cabba and nothing changes
I can put fords finding caulifla and kale which would be consistent
I can put vegeta or goku teaching caulifla and kale transformations which would work the same especially with goku who has a facility to make friends unlike vegeta
Cabba specifically goes to Caulifla to recruit her. From the very beginning he wasn't viewing her as an enemy. The only part that got off-screened following them becoming friends is Caulifla learning Super Saiyan. Besides that, he comes across pretty damn naturally as someone trying to recruit someone else and showing them what they're missing out on.

You can maybe remove Cabba and nothing changes for your "script." But that script is going to be an entirely different Tournament of Power than what was in the manga. You'd have to have Goku suddenly ignoring Jiren and acting like he has time to teach anything (which goes against the idea of the tournament being only 45 minutes.) You'd lose the main motivation Caulifla has for joining the tournament, which was at least in part the amazement of seeing a Super Saiyan with her own eyes and learning how to do it.

You can't remove Cabba unless you're making a fanfic.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
I never said that "taking out" ... that's you said with which we eliminated the first fight or that caulifla be realizing the power of kale is enough
Which still wouldn't change anything, because it goes against the point Toyotaro had in mind for Caulifla and Kale. That Caulifla was oblivious to Kale's hidden strength. Even if Cabba got eliminated earlier, you'd still have is him shouting at Kale to stop holding back from the benches instead of after the fact. The fact is, Kale and Caulifla's relationship in the manga isn't what you wish it was in the manga. And that seems to be part of where you have an issue with Cabba's presence.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:59 am
As I said cabba and hit had already had development and participation in the last tournament, so it was good that they left their space to the other new characters ... also in the script they were not going to do much
if jiren, dyspo and toppo were going to stay until the end against universe 7 they could have had more participation ... especially having 4 warriors as final opponents
that's why I say the comparison is out of place because in the end universe 11 was more important than universe 6
Hit had more development than Cabba in the U6/U7 arc and he still had an entire chapter in the tournament of power dedicated to him saving Goku and fighting Jiren. Cabba was supplementary to chapters that were dedicated to Caulifla and Kale.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:51 am

EGonzo wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:03 pm
MCDaveG wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:27 pm
Man, that line hurts even more from Piccolo as he’s one of the best analysts when battling, even worked as a teacher for Goten and Trunks. He was the one who noticed Goku being weak from virus for example and now he is getting senile from old age probably :?
It's impressive considering he's only a little older than Gohan.
You know man, absorbing people with different personalities and experiencing traumatic events leaves one battle-hardened youngster babbling nonsense in the middle of death and life battle.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Rigel » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:18 pm

I have a dumb question, but still... What the extent of the "god powers" of the kami-sama of earth? After all, supreme kai doesn't sealed Moro because he doesn't had his full God powers anymore, but Dende still has it. Supreme Kai could have taught him the technique to seal Moro in the time gap between Moro destroying Namek and their arrive in the Galactic Patrol QG, before supreme kai switch to majin boo... I just don't know if Dende would have the capacity to overthrow Moro with all that power though.

I have a second theory, in witch Merus could have learned this technique too. If so, applying it he eventually would lost his angel powers (because of the collateral effect of the technique), transforming him in mortal and making him escape of the punish of being erased. The only problem I see in this theory is that, in thesis, Majin Boo is still sleeping, and so Supreme Kai couldn't have taught the technique to him during the time of the story (maybe Dende could have taught him, though)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:31 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:39 am
He had the option to try and defy the idea of losing to Vegeta, which one would expect given his prior viewing of Vegeta as a "lesser being." But instead he accepts his defeat and (falls into the overarching theme of the arc because) he relies on Jiren. That is development.
he learned not to underestimate his opponents .. don't take me wrong but that would be a development if toppo was someone totally arrogant but ok let's say yes
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:39 am
The fight itself is incredibly short though, only taking up a few pages. It's absolutely necessary for the context of Caulifla learning about Super Saiyan and Cabba choosing to recruit Kale.

The Pride Troopers are deliberately set up in the manga to be this invincible perfectly coordinated team in the manga. Having Caulifla, a regular Super Saiyan knock out even one of them by herself would have gone against what Toyotaro was trying to portray in that the entirety of Universe 11 was a threat. If she was going to defeat anyone she would've had to fight against one of the fodder from the other universes, but that would've muddied the pacing because U7 and U11 wouldn't be involved..
they could make cabba watch as kale snatches the weapon from a sadala's soldier or eliminate the fight .. and put a dialogue explaining that caulifla understood the power of that transformation
that is, the author did that with piccolo in his confrontation with shin without the need for an unnecessary fight to understand his power and make them see as rookies

How much can the absence of 1 matter? They don't even have special abilities to be necessary that everyone to be together.
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:39 am
Cabba specifically goes to Caulifla to recruit her. From the very beginning he wasn't viewing her as an enemy. The only part that got off-screened following them becoming friends is Caulifla learning Super Saiyan. Besides that, he comes across pretty damn naturally as someone trying to recruit someone else and showing them what they're missing out on.

You can maybe remove Cabba and nothing changes for your "script." But that script is going to be an entirely different Tournament of Power than what was in the manga. You'd have to have Goku suddenly ignoring Jiren and acting like he has time to teach anything (which goes against the idea of the tournament being only 45 minutes.) You'd lose the main motivation Caulifla has for joining the tournament, which was at least in part the amazement of seeing a Super Saiyan with her own eyes and learning how to do it.

You can't remove Cabba unless you're making a fanfic.
my point if it can be understood was that you can make any story take a course because the author forces things to happen but it wouldn't necessarily be naturall
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:39 am
Which still wouldn't change anything, because it goes against the point Toyotaro had in mind for Caulifla and Kale. That Caulifla was oblivious to Kale's hidden strength. Even if Cabba got eliminated earlier, you'd still have is him shouting at Kale to stop holding back from the benches instead of after the fact. The fact is, Kale and Caulifla's relationship in the manga isn't what you wish it was in the manga. And that seems to be part of where you have an issue with Cabba's presence.
I think you did not read me when I talk about an individual development and as this does not affect the development of other characters ...
the development of android 17 affected that of gohan in the anime or at least is what his fans said which may be debatable in that case.
this happens in fiction and it is something real when you have several characters, little time and few pages ... if you don't understand I don't see the case to discuss this.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:58 pm

Does anyone think that shield Moro put up will allow Merus to go all out for a bit?
Do you think Toyotaro would possibly narrate that shield to not detect people inside of it?

I know Merus is going to stall so the Namekian can heal. How much power will he need to contend with a powered up Moro?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:07 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:58 pm
Does anyone think that shield Moro put up will allow Merus to go all out for a bit?
Do you think Toyotaro would possibly narrate that shield to not detect people inside of it?
You mean, so that Whis and the Grand Priest don't know Merus is using his full power? An interesting possibility, but I only see it happening as something that would give them an excuse to look the other way (a la the Galactic King and time-skipping), rather than something that would actually stop them from looking in. I don't see something like that legitimately escaping the Grand Priest's notice.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:09 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:58 pm
Does anyone think that shield Moro put up will allow Merus to go all out for a bit?
Do you think Toyotaro would possibly narrate that shield to not detect people inside of it?

I know Merus is going to stall so the Namekian can heal. How much power will he need to contend with a powered up Moro?
Meerus will not go all out. If he does he will be erased. But, one of four things will happen to end this arc in my opinion.

1. Meerus uses his full power. Kills Moro and dies.

2. Dende/Krillin heal the gang. UI Goku and Vegeta work together and diffuses Moro. Vegeta kills them both.

3. MUI Goku beats moro.

4. Buu briefly absorbs Goku and Vegeta. He has enough power to seal away Moro’s power and kills him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:13 pm

^ Haven't noticed that the shield was bypassed just after being placed, I wonder what it's purpose will be, I doubt is just to block Kurilin's senzus.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:17 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:31 pm
he learned not to underestimate his opponents .. don't take me wrong but that would be a development if toppo was someone totally arrogant but ok let's say yes
Yes, Toppo's initial characterization in the manga is someone who is somewhat arrogant. This falls in line with his introduction during his fight against Goku, and is expanded upon during his battle with Vegeta.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:31 pm
they could make cabba watch as kale snatches the weapon from a sadala's soldier or eliminate the fight .. and put a dialogue explaining that caulifla understood the power of that transformation
that is, the author did that with piccolo in his confrontation with shin without the need for an unnecessary fight to understand his power and make them see as rookies

How much can the absence of 1 matter? They don't even have special abilities to be necessary that everyone to be together.
Ok, but then you're taking away a decent amount of action int hat chapter.

A character doesn't need "special abilities" to contribute to the story or as a teammate. Cabba in the manga is the familiar connection between Caulifla/Kale and the viewer. His absence would make the introduction of Caulifla and Kale feel incredibly sudden and weird. Then you'd have people asking "why didn't we get a Saiyan in the U6/U7 arc".
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:31 pm
my point if it can be understood was that you can make any story take a course because the author forces things to happen but it wouldn't necessarily be naturall
By its nature a fantastical story is meant to depict unnatural events. As far as an alien recruiting more of his species for a tournament goes, it was as natural as such a fantastical situation could be as possible, and wasn't anymore forced than having Goku go to hell to get Frieza.
Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:31 pm
I think you did not read me when I talk about an individual development and as this does not affect the development of other characters ...
the development of android 17 affected that of gohan in the anime or at least is what his fans said which may be debatable in that case.
this happens in fiction and it is something real when you have several characters, little time and few pages ... if you don't understand I don't see the case to discuss this.
What are you talking about? The character development for the U6 Saiyans impact each other. They don't need to impact U7 or U11 to come across as real

And I mean, yeah I have trouble understanding you quite a bit. But that's because the lack of grammar, capitalization, punctuation, and use runoff sentences most of the time is very difficult to understand. (Which isn't me trying to be insulting, but if you're going to continue debating I really think you should do your best to fix that.)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:58 pm
Does anyone think that shield Moro put up will allow Merus to go all out for a bit?
Do you think Toyotaro would possibly narrate that shield to not detect people inside of it?

I know Merus is going to stall so the Namekian can heal. How much power will he need to contend with a powered up Moro?
Good thought. I think there's a loophole regarding the Angels using close to their full strength, in that they can only unleash some of it in a "training" context, which is fairly vague. Merus says he can tap into more of his power in his own RoSaT when he's training against Goku (though not all-out), and presumably Whis and all other Angels have to occasionally use close to their full power when training their respective Hakaishin. Maybe being inside an enclosed, controlled space, like Moro's bubble shield, is part of the loophole that Merus is gonna use to his advantage.

We don't know the context of how or why Merus escaped his father and Whis, or whether or not he was directly brought there by them. By all appearances, they're deciding to look the other way. I doubt Merus will use his full strength, but maybe this loophole will allow him to use something close to it.

Man... thing is, some things about this arc really do interest me. I do like Merus -- he's not Mr. Personality, but he's an intriguing character. Most of the issues I have are rooted in problems with the antagonist, but I believe the story was at its best when Merus was involved. He was that extra hook that these last few chapters have been severely lacking. Although Moro is clearly a huge focus, the arc is still officially called the "Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc". The Galactic Patrol, and especially Merus, should have always been given equal focus. Hopefully these next few chapters make up for it. It won't be a magic one-shoe-fits-all solution, but it's something to look forward to, maybe...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:43 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:30 am
BWri wrote:They had plenty of energy to spare as Kefla. Enough to be a cause of concern for the high tier fighters if their expressions and interest in her fight with Gohan are any indication.
Kale by herself was already a concerning fighter, so it's only logical that a fusion between her and someone else wouldn't be taken lightly.
That's my point. She hadn't loss so much power that other higher tier fighters considered her a non-threat. Goku and Jiren had their eyes firmly planted on her as soon as she showed up and kept them on her at the start of her fight with Gohan. If she were anything lesser than Kale herself, I don't believe Jiren would even spare her a glance.

(I see now that Vegetto needed a sensu just after fusing during his fight with Zamasu so I admit to being wrong about there being no precedent for fusions starting in a weakened state.) Though strangely finger fusions don't seem to suffer from this. At least Gotenks and Gogeta haven't shown this problem that I can recall. Can someone confirm that for me?

Vados stated that Kefla has Kale's strength and Caulifla's fighting sense, so her being around Kale's max power makes sense to me, maybe a fair bit stronger. For Gohan to match this is impressive. And to clarify, I never thought Kefla and Gohan were in contention with Goku and Jiren. I've just always thought in the manga that they were strong enough to give SSB level fighters a decent fight. Frieza and Goku were messing around with Kale so it stands to reason they are well above her, but all of this is well beyond the realm of SSG in BoG or SSB in RoF.
Gohan had problems with the trio of dangers, he may had reached Mystic levels of powers in the ToP but above that I can't see it.
I'm not saying that the manga doesn't have inconsistencies, or that Gohan's power jump doesn't feel like one, but there are several things to consider. The first is that maybe most of the participants, the ones who seem like fodder, are stronger than you realize. But other than that, the "Ultimate" boost is huge. It was huge in the Buu arc and even if it just scaled to that it would still be a greater power increase than SSJ3 which is x400. Depending on how much he upped his base, which already seems like a lot, this alone could be justification for his power jump vs Kefla. But with Ultimate being Gohan's latent potential unleashed, I'm sure at this point it doesn't scale the same as the Buu arc.

All that said, the initial point of all this was me saying that Piccolo and Gohan are crazy strong now. And yes, coming from just the ToP last arc, they really really are. Well past the strength of BoG for both and likely RoF too, at least it's clear for Gohan but Piccolo's amped self destruct may be top tier ToP (below FP Jiren and MUI) if he thinks he can take Moro out with it or even do any harm to him whatsoever. Which is completely insane. :wtf:
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