"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Psajdak]

Will Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct happen?

[HeroR]

I still don't see what was lacking in how the relationship of Goku and Merus was portrayed. Seriously, what else do you guys think we should've gotten? aside of more training, which would've been redundant, would've slowed down the arc even more, not to mention spoiler alert.

Goku bonds with people through fighting, he fought alongside Merus before, he fought him on the Galactic Patrol ship, and then he spent months with him, who was also behaving as a mentor and teaching him the most powerful technique there is. Then this little fella jumps in to save him from Moro, and sacrifices himself in order to give him the final push to achieve UI. Why would Goku not suffer after seeing this?

---

On another note, The Grand Priest said to Whis, when he offered himself to deal with Merus, that he didn't want to lose an angel, and it was he who sent Merus to U7. And Beerus let him die, so could this be a set up for Beerus getting into trouble? like big trouble?

There is a lot of filler that could have been cut from this arc and replaced with Merus and Goku’s training.

And would Goku suffer, honestly no, not to that extent. Goku watched Buu murder his sons and wasn’t as emotional as he is here. He watched Frieza in Resurrection ‘F’ nuke the Earth and kill his wife, second son, his granddaughter, and daughter-in-law and wasn’t this emotional. In the TOP, he watched people he grew to like in Hit who he also fought besides, and if we count the anime Cali and Kale, get erased and nothing.

The only times we have seen Goku get super emotional over people dying was with Krillin, Roshi, the Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga, and when Black bragged about how he murder his family in the anime. And all those examples are from lifelong friends, family, and his father figure. Not from someone he knew for a few months.

And even with all the above, it’s still lousy storytelling to stick bonding moments in flashbacks when you’re about to kill a character. Toriyama who people like to mock for his somewhat shallow storytelling figured that out when a 1/3 of the 21st Tourument Saga was devoted to showing Krillin and Goku’s training, not only showing how they got physically stronger, but how all three bonded. Which is why when they died in the King Piccolo Saga, you felt it. Goku’s pain was real. His pain in this chapter doesn’t feel real, it feels force. It’s emotional payoff with barely doing anything to earn it.

In another issue, his training to unlock UI was undercooked since the story never answered why Goku got more progressed from Merus than Whis. I guess you can say it’s because Goku got closer to Merus than Whis so that effected his training, but it isn’t like Toyo showed us or even imply this.

[DiscountDabi]

In another issue, his training to unlock UI was undercooked since the story never answered why Goku got more progressed from Merus than Whis. I guess you can say it’s because Goku got closer to Merus than Whis so that effected his training, but it isn’t like Toyo showed us or even imply this.

I think a large part of this is the fact that Merus not only took a hands on Aproach and almost broke the Angel Law to do it, but also because he actually explained what Ultra Instinct was and how it was activated. Something Whis clearly never did as Goku and Vegeta Acted like they had never heard of it when it was brought up during the TOP. Which makes you wonder about his competency as a teacher.

[HeroR]

In another issue, his training to unlock UI was undercooked since the story never answered why Goku got more progressed from Merus than Whis. I guess you can say it’s because Goku got closer to Merus than Whis so that effected his training, but it isn’t like Toyo showed us or even imply this.

I think a large part of this is the fact that Merus not only took a hands on Aproach and almost broke the Angel Law to do it, but also because he actually explained what Ultra Instinct was and how it was activated. Something Whis clearly never did as Goku and Vegeta Acted like they had never heard of it when it was brought up during the TOP. Which makes you wonder about his competency as a teacher.

In Resurrection ‘F’, Whis did tell them. Namely, Vegeta had to relaxed since he was too high strung and Goku needed to become less relaxed and keep his guard up. Toyo just decided to not to follow up on that and go with Goku is a fighter who depends on getting new forms and overpowering his opponent.

[Koitsukai]

I still don't see what was lacking in how the relationship of Goku and Merus was portrayed. Seriously, what else do you guys think we should've gotten? aside of more training, which would've been redundant, would've slowed down the arc even more, not to mention spoiler alert.

Goku bonds with people through fighting, he fought alongside Merus before, he fought him on the Galactic Patrol ship, and then he spent months with him, who was also behaving as a mentor and teaching him the most powerful technique there is. Then this little fella jumps in to save him from Moro, and sacrifices himself in order to give him the final push to achieve UI. Why would Goku not suffer after seeing this?

---

On another note, The Grand Priest said to Whis, when he offered himself to deal with Merus, that he didn't want to lose an angel, and it was he who sent Merus to U7. And Beerus let him die, so could this be a set up for Beerus getting into trouble? like big trouble?

There is a lot of filler that could have been cut from this arc and replaced with Merus and Goku’s training.

And would Goku suffer, honestly no, not to that extent. Goku watched Buu murder his sons and wasn’t as emotional as he is here. He watched Frieza in Resurrection ‘F’ nuke the Earth and kill his wife, second son, his granddaughter, and daughter-in-law and wasn’t this emotional. In the TOP, he watched people he grew to like in Hit who he also fought besides, and if we count the anime Cali and Kale, get erased and nothing.

The only times we have seen Goku get super emotional over people dying was with Krillin, Roshi, the Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga, and when Black bragged about how he murder his family in the anime. And all those examples are from lifelong friends, family, and his father figure. Not from someone he knew for a few months.

And even with all the above, it’s still lousy storytelling to stick bonding moments in flashbacks when you’re about to kill a character. Toriyama who people like to mock for his somewhat shallow storytelling figured that out when a 1/3 of the 21st Tourument Saga was devoted to showing Krillin and Goku’s training, not only showing how they got physically stronger, but how all three bonded. Which is why when they died in the King Piccolo Saga, you felt it. Goku’s pain was real. His pain in this chapter doesn’t feel real, it feels force. It’s emotional payoff with barely doing anything to earn it.

In another issue, his training to unlock UI was undercooked since the story never answered why Goku got more progressed from Merus than Whis. I guess you can say it’s because Goku got closer to Merus than Whis so that effected his training, but it isn’t like Toyo showed us or even imply this.

- More training? it would've been repetitive (seriously, how many more training panels can one stand?) and also beat it's purpose, he wasn't learning new groundbreaking stuff like Vegeta. You'd end up seeing Goku using Omen and spoiling it's appearence in the field. It was a much more secretive approach for a technique that is pretty straightforward: control your emotions while fighting. Yeah, there could be some other side of the training that could've been shown like some inside-of-his-mind stuff, but it's absence doesn't mean the training wasn't properly portrayed.

- You don't have to know someone for your whole life to suffer their loss. There isn't a rule of thumb for this things.
Goku buried Vegeta on Namek and he hated him. He even "suffered" Freeza having to die on Namek. Merus isn't just someone he knows for a few months. He was his last sensei whom he lived with for half a year, was helping him to achieve "perfection" and killed himself to teach Goku his final lesson.

- Merus ends up looking better than Whis because Goku already had a taste of UI, Whis had already done most of the work. It'd be different if Goku never got UI at the ToP. Merus was also being much more direct than Whis, we never saw Goku all mangled up training with Whis like with Merus. Also, his training partner was Vegeta.

[HeroR]

I still don't see what was lacking in how the relationship of Goku and Merus was portrayed. Seriously, what else do you guys think we should've gotten? aside of more training, which would've been redundant, would've slowed down the arc even more, not to mention spoiler alert.

Goku bonds with people through fighting, he fought alongside Merus before, he fought him on the Galactic Patrol ship, and then he spent months with him, who was also behaving as a mentor and teaching him the most powerful technique there is. Then this little fella jumps in to save him from Moro, and sacrifices himself in order to give him the final push to achieve UI. Why would Goku not suffer after seeing this?

---

On another note, The Grand Priest said to Whis, when he offered himself to deal with Merus, that he didn't want to lose an angel, and it was he who sent Merus to U7. And Beerus let him die, so could this be a set up for Beerus getting into trouble? like big trouble?

There is a lot of filler that could have been cut from this arc and replaced with Merus and Goku’s training.

And would Goku suffer, honestly no, not to that extent. Goku watched Buu murder his sons and wasn’t as emotional as he is here. He watched Frieza in Resurrection ‘F’ nuke the Earth and kill his wife, second son, his granddaughter, and daughter-in-law and wasn’t this emotional. In the TOP, he watched people he grew to like in Hit who he also fought besides, and if we count the anime Cali and Kale, get erased and nothing.

The only times we have seen Goku get super emotional over people dying was with Krillin, Roshi, the Z-Fighters in the Saiyan Saga, and when Black bragged about how he murder his family in the anime. And all those examples are from lifelong friends, family, and his father figure. Not from someone he knew for a few months.

And even with all the above, it’s still lousy storytelling to stick bonding moments in flashbacks when you’re about to kill a character. Toriyama who people like to mock for his somewhat shallow storytelling figured that out when a 1/3 of the 21st Tourument Saga was devoted to showing Krillin and Goku’s training, not only showing how they got physically stronger, but how all three bonded. Which is why when they died in the King Piccolo Saga, you felt it. Goku’s pain was real. His pain in this chapter doesn’t feel real, it feels force. It’s emotional payoff with barely doing anything to earn it.

In another issue, his training to unlock UI was undercooked since the story never answered why Goku got more progressed from Merus than Whis. I guess you can say it’s because Goku got closer to Merus than Whis so that effected his training, but it isn’t like Toyo showed us or even imply this.

- More training? it would've been repetitive (seriously, how many more training panels can one stand?) and also beat it's purpose, he wasn't learning new groundbreaking stuff like Vegeta. You'd end up seeing Goku using Omen and spoiling it's appearence in the field. It was a much more secretive approach for a technique that is pretty straightforward: control your emotions while fighting. Yeah, there could be some other side of the training that could've been shown like some inside-of-his-mind stuff, but it's absence doesn't mean the training wasn't properly portrayed.

- You don't have to know someone for your whole life to suffer their loss. There isn't a rule of thumb for this things.
Goku buried Vegeta on Namek and he hated him. He even "suffered" Freeza having to die on Namek. Merus isn't just someone he knows for a few months. He was his last sensei whom he lived with for half a year, was helping him to achieve "perfection" and killed himself to teach Goku his final lesson.

- Merus ends up looking better than Whis because Goku already had a taste of UI, Whis had already done most of the work. It'd be different if Goku never got UI at the ToP. Merus was also being much more direct than Whis, we never saw Goku all mangled up training with Whis like with Merus. Also, his training partner was Vegeta.

This is Dragon Ball, so ‘more training’ is par the course. Especially if you’re training to learned the new hotness that is UI and build a bond with a character you’re going to kill so the audience will give a damn and the characters having an emotional reaction to that death feels real. This is storytelling 101.

And ‘we must keep UI a secret’, I’m sorry that BS. UI was already formally introduced last arc. It aren’t a secret anymore and we should learn more on how it works and how Merus got it out of Goku over Whis. It’s half-ass.

And you know what, training scenes and panels are some of the best in Dragon Ball. The 21st Tournament wouldn’t have been half as good if those moments were put in flashbacks or only lightly touched on. It also buildup the lifetime bond between Goku, Roshi, and Krillin. And I take more training panels over watching two chapters worth the Z-Fighters fighting and losing to Moro’s fodder and have that entire one month bargain. Those two chapters were honestly not needed.

Goku was sad about Vegeta’s death, but not enraged. Freeza was more of ‘what a waste’ sadness mixed with pity. It isn’t comparable to Goku going into his legendary limp and livid pose. And I already gave examples of Goku losing people much closer to him than Merus and he didn’t have such a strong reaction. And ‘he is his teacher’ doesn’t work either when he knew King Kai longer and got him killed.

Goku directly sparred with Whis several times, he didn’t just fight Vegeta. And given some time past between this arc and the TOP, you’re telling me Whis couldn’t have done the same thing like telling Goku how he got UI? For god’s sake, Whis and him were eating dinner in Broly. Why didn’t that ever come up?

[Michsi]

That's the problem. We don't see enough of Goku and Merus bonding to believe that Goku should be that emotional about him dying. It isn't like Goku and 17 despite only knowing each other for less than two days building a bond over the course of the TOP so when Goku thought 17 died it felt genuine. This on the other hand feels force because that kind of relationship never formed.

In fact, Merus' death is less 17, and more Android 16. Namely, 16 had no real connection to Gohan, but Gohan's reaction to his death made sense since Gohan was already highly emotional and he saw someone he could have saved get literally stepped on.

Well, I get we didn't actually see them growing close in order for the loss to feel personal, but I feel like it's simply natural for them to have done so. Also, as you said, it's not so much about Goku losing someone he cared about, but also simply seeing someone- especially someone who is good and kind - die before his eyes, which works too. He got really angry when those random soldiers died at Cell's hand, enough to start looking for ways to bring back the DBs for their sake All I'm saying is that Goku's reaction is appropriate.

Showing a few panels isn't a enough to make someone think 'yeah, they have a really closed bond'. If you're going to make something have an emotional payoff or make us believe that someone like Goku would get overly emotional about something, you better show it. Otherwise, people are not going believe what you're showing.

Goku got upset about the random soldiers dying because he made Cell promised that he wouldn't kill anyone until the Cell Games (Cell never promised anything, but Goku seemed to assumed that he wouldn't kill anyone after he told him not to).

The problem isn't Goku getting upset. It's the level that Toyo showed that he was upset that the final panel is similar to when Krillin died on Namek. That was a moment that happened because Krillin is quite literally Goku's best friend and Toyo had no business provoking that image for Merus, but nothing showed that they were anywhere near that level of closeness.

And why did he make Cell promise that in the first place??? He made Cell promise not to kill anyone because he didn't want anyone to get killed and he got upset because of the senseless killing. Not because Cell broke his promise. Come on.


Anyway, the scene works in my opinion and is in line with how I imagine Goku functions. Basically it hinges a lot on your impression of Goku and if you see Goku as someone that could achieve that level of anger at the death of anyone, regardless of how close you think them to be then the scene works. It's not perfect by any stretch, but for me it did the job.

[Psajdak]

This will sound weird, but for most part Goku always seemed to me like everyone is same to him, be they his own family, or friends, or enemies, like he doesn't really have anyone who is actually important to him, or whom he really despise.

[Xeogran]

Other than that, where the heck is Krillin? He should be close by. Maybe he's the one who'll heal the Androids.

You mean Moro, seeing how Cell-y this saga is

I meant Krillin and his bag of sensu. Since Dende doesn't seem to be healing them, I figure it'll be Krillin since he's in the area. Unless they self-heal which hasn't been established yet.

I was thinking about Moro stealing the beans off Krillin to heal himself up

[Michsi]

This will sound weird, but for most part Goku always seemed to me like everyone is same to him, be they his own family, or friends, or enemies, like he doesn't really have anyone who is actually important to him, or whom he really despise.

That is somewhat in line with how Toriyama claims his mind functions, but in the sense that he doesn't differentiate between "family" and "friends" and that they all fall under the category of "companions" to him.
But the idea that he is not at all genuinely emotionally attached to anyone is wrong IMO. I mean, the whole SSJ on Namek scene speaks loudly against that notion.

This is what I meant when I said that sometimes the story made him come across as pretty blasé, especially in the Boo arc, but I do not think he is supposed to be that way.

[Skar]

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

I agree Trunks should've been shown more upset over his timeline being erased but I wouldn't say there's a complete disconnect for every other emotional moment in the DBS manga. Kibito's death and Shin almost being killed triggered his SSJ2 transformation. He cried when Bulma was killed and when he thought Mai was killed. He didn't trigger a new transformation again but I didn't think the manga failed to convey he was emotional over their deaths. If Toyotaro failed to show Trunks being upset after his timeline was erased, that shouldn't prevent him from trying to improve and do a better job in a later arc.

The problem with ‘he’s just learning’ is that even as recent as last year when he killed all the Namekians, that had no emotional weight with the merged Super Namekian being killed without Moro even looking as a punchline. It like all tragedies are treated as a footnote with no one really caring outside a comment or two about the genocide. Compared that to Merus’ end.

It’s obvious that Toyo cared for his OC, he wanted the audience to care too, so he put a lot of weight into Merus dying compared to everyone else who ever died or got erased. Which is another common fanfic mistake.

Vegeta did vow to resurrect the Nameks when this was over. I don't think that's a fair comparison because the story makes it clear that their death was temporary like all the people killed by Buu vs someone who very likely won't be brought up again. I would argue if Meerus was killed normally and just sent to Other World that Goku probably wouldn't have been as upset over it.

To be honest, there have been many moments in DBS that reminded me of fanfiction but this wasn't one of them. I recall Toyotaro designed Meerus but not that he had free reign over the entire arc since he still has an editor and Toriyama supervising. It's fair to criticize Meerus but claiming Toyotaro was only favoring his OC makes it sound like he had complete control over the entire arc.

[HeroR]

Well, I get we didn't actually see them growing close in order for the loss to feel personal, but I feel like it's simply natural for them to have done so. Also, as you said, it's not so much about Goku losing someone he cared about, but also simply seeing someone- especially someone who is good and kind - die before his eyes, which works too. He got really angry when those random soldiers died at Cell's hand, enough to start looking for ways to bring back the DBs for their sake All I'm saying is that Goku's reaction is appropriate.

Showing a few panels isn't a enough to make someone think 'yeah, they have a really closed bond'. If you're going to make something have an emotional payoff or make us believe that someone like Goku would get overly emotional about something, you better show it. Otherwise, people are not going believe what you're showing.

Goku got upset about the random soldiers dying because he made Cell promised that he wouldn't kill anyone until the Cell Games (Cell never promised anything, but Goku seemed to assumed that he wouldn't kill anyone after he told him not to).

The problem isn't Goku getting upset. It's the level that Toyo showed that he was upset that the final panel is similar to when Krillin died on Namek. That was a moment that happened because Krillin is quite literally Goku's best friend and Toyo had no business provoking that image for Merus, but nothing showed that they were anywhere near that level of closeness.

And why did he make Cell promise that in the first place??? He made Cell promise not to kill anyone because he didn't want anyone to get killed and he got upset because of the senseless killing. Not because Cell broke his promise. Come on.


Anyway, the scene works in my opinion and is in line with how I imagine Goku functions. Basically it hinges a lot on your impression of Goku and if you see Goku as someone that could achieve that level of anger at the death of anyone, regardless of how close you think them to be then the scene works. It's not perfect by any stretch, but for me it did the job.

Because Goku hate bullies who used their power to terrorized people weaker than them. Same reason he was mad at Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force despite them nearly killing his son.

Thing is, if you look at Goku's history of getting pissed. As I pointed out in another post, Goku didn't get this angry when Buu killed his son, Freeza nuked the Earth and killed most of his family and friends, U6 being erased despite being fond of Hit. So it's hard to buy that Merus would provoke the Krillin pose.

What Toyo did was just so lazily done.

And to make it worse, Merus’ death is treated with more emotional weight than Future Trunks’ timeline being erased. Heck, Goku is more distressed about Merus dying than Future Trunks was over his mother‘a murder and his timeline being erased. So you have this disconnect where every other emotional moment in the Super manga is treated like a footnote, including U6 being erased and the deaths of several fan-favorite characters, but Toyo’s personal OC gets to be mourned and honored to the point that Goku mimicked his rage pose on Namek is just.....not right for the lack of better words.

I agree Trunks should've been shown more upset over his timeline being erased but I wouldn't say there's a complete disconnect for every other emotional moment in the DBS manga. Kibito's death and Shin almost being killed triggered his SSJ2 transformation. He cried when Bulma was killed and when he thought Mai was killed. He didn't trigger a new transformation again but I didn't think the manga failed to convey he was emotional over their deaths. If Toyotaro failed to show Trunks being upset after his timeline was erased, that shouldn't prevent him from trying to improve and do a better job in a later arc.

The problem with ‘he’s just learning’ is that even as recent as last year when he killed all the Namekians, that had no emotional weight with the merged Super Namekian being killed without Moro even looking as a punchline. It like all tragedies are treated as a footnote with no one really caring outside a comment or two about the genocide. Compared that to Merus’ end.

It’s obvious that Toyo cared for his OC, he wanted the audience to care too, so he put a lot of weight into Merus dying compared to everyone else who ever died or got erased. Which is another common fanfic mistake.

Vegeta did vow to resurrect the Nameks when this was over. I don't think that's a fair comparison because the story makes it clear that their death was temporary like all the people killed by Buu vs someone who very likely won't be brought up again. I would argue if Meerus was killed normally and just sent to Other World that Goku probably wouldn't have been as upset over it.

To be honest, there have been many moments in DBS that reminded me of fanfiction but this wasn't one of them. I recall Toyotaro designed Meerus but not that he had free reign over the entire arc since he still has an editor and Toriyama supervising. It's fair to criticize Meerus but claiming Toyotaro was only favoring his OC makes it sound like he had complete control over the entire arc.

Thing is, he didn't improved. This same air of indifferent was on full displayed during the second Namekian genocide, Moro eating the universe like it was potato chips, and going back to the TOP, universes being erased including U6 that U7 got to know. He only showed emotional care to Merus, a character that he created which reeks of favoritism.

One or two lines about a race that saved the Earth when Buu destroyed it is hardly anything to Vegeta making a line about reviving Namekian or Denda-lite and Denda talking about it. Compared Toyo's genocide of the Namekians to the original manga. The different is stark.

Even temporary deaths in Dragon Ball isn't this nonchalant. Despite knowing that people could be revived in the Buu Saga, everyone was horrified when Buu ate cities, Goten lost his shit when he saw his mom stepped on, and Denda was upset when Piccolo sold out the people of Earth to Buu to buy Goten and Trunks more time to train. Even Gotenks finally got serious when he learned Buu ate everyone in the Lookout. Hell, if we used the anime of Resurrection 'F' when Piccolo was killed, everyone was upset and pissed despite knowing that he could be revived. Same with the Resurrection 'F' movie when Freeza nuked the Earth no one went, 'well, we can just revived them'. They were upset to the point of tears.

You're making assumptions. We don't know the level of involvement Toriyama has outside of him saying that Merus is an angel. That is literally all we know, especially when Toriyama himself wanted Toyo to have more creative freedom. So you can't hand wave anything with 'but Toriyama' or 'but the editors' because he isn't following an outline. This arc is Toyo's baby so for the lack of better words, he needs to own it. And it would still reek of creative favoritism for the above reasons since this chapter shows that Toyo can somewhat write emotional scenes, but chose not to do it with any other big moment except this one with a character he created.

[Michsi]

Because Goku hate bullies who used their power to terrorized people weaker than them. Same reason he was mad at Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force despite them nearly killing his son.

Thing is, if you look at Goku's history of getting pissed. As I pointed out in another post, Goku didn't get this angry when Buu killed his son, Freeza nuked the Earth and killed most of his family and friends, U6 being erased despite being fond of Hit. So it's hard to buy that Merus would provoke the Krillin pose.

What Toyo did was just so lazily done.

This all boils down to him having a big heart.

The Buu example for instance is one of the scenes which I was referring to, meaning I felt they were just rushing through the emotional part and as a result he comes across as detached. There is a dissonance between the image of him on his knees, obviously distraught over failing to save Gohan&co, and the speed with which the story moves past that moment.

Your other examples are also ones that I don't feel captured his character fully and I was pretty dissatisfied with everyone's reaction /

Long story short- a reaction like this feels more in line with how I imagine his character to be, then the examples you brought up.

Also, it doesn't have to be Meerus' death alone. It could very well be coupled with a profound sense of failure, but I might be reading too much into it.

[HeroR]

Because Goku hate bullies who used their power to terrorized people weaker than them. Same reason he was mad at Vegeta killing the Ginyu Force despite them nearly killing his son.

Thing is, if you look at Goku's history of getting pissed. As I pointed out in another post, Goku didn't get this angry when Buu killed his son, Freeza nuked the Earth and killed most of his family and friends, U6 being erased despite being fond of Hit. So it's hard to buy that Merus would provoke the Krillin pose.

What Toyo did was just so lazily done.

This all boils down to him having a big heart.

The Buu example for instance is one of the scenes which I was referring to, meaning I felt they were just rushing through the emotional part and as a result he comes across as detached. There is a dissonance between the image of him on his knees, obviously distraught over failing to save Gohan&co, and the speed with which the story moves past that moment.

Your other examples are also ones that I don't feel captured his character fully and I was pretty dissatisfied with everyone's reaction /

Long story short- a reaction like this feels more in line with how I imagine his character to be, then the examples you brought up.

Also, it doesn't have to be Meerus' death alone. It could very well be coupled with a profound sense of failure, but I might be reading too much into it.

Except the Buu one was hardly the only example and most of them are examples from Toriyama's original manga, who should know Goku better than any of us. And this is the portrayal that is the most constant to Goku's character. He only really gets upset when people he knows for a very long time gets hurt or killed. Goku has never shown this level of emotional distressed over someone he met just a few months ago.

If Toyo took the time to actually build this bond, it maybe more believable if still suspect. Toyo didn't bother to put in the work.

[Skar]

Even temporary deaths in Dragon Ball isn't this nonchalant. Despite knowing that people could be revived in the Buu Saga, everyone was horrified when Buu ate cities, Goten lost his shit when he saw his mom stepped on, and Denda was upset when Piccolo sold out the people of Earth to Buu to buy Goten and Trunks more time to train. Even Gotenks finally got serious when he learned Buu ate everyone in the Lookout. Hell, if we used the anime of Resurrection 'F' when Piccolo was killed, everyone was upset and pissed despite knowing that he could be revived. Same with the Resurrection 'F' movie when Freeza nuked the Earth no one went, 'well, we can just revived them'. They were upset to the point of tears.

Like I said before, deaths that were thought to be permanent resulted in a more emotional reaction. I didn't like how they weren't more upset over Moro terrorizing the universe but I can understand that it isn't the same as Meerus' permanent death and that Toyotaro consider that having more weight.

You're making assumptions. We don't know the level of involvement Toriyama has outside of him saying that Merus is an angel. That is literally all we know, especially when Toriyama himself wanted Toyo to have more creative freedom. So you can't hand wave anything with 'but Toriyama' or 'but the editors' because he isn't following an outline. This arc is Toyo's baby so for the lack of better words, he needs to own it. And it would still reek of creative favoritism for the above reasons since this chapter shows that Toyo can somewhat write emotional scenes, but chose not to do it with any other big moment except this one with a character he created.

I wasn't making assumptions or handwaving anything. I said it's fair to criticize Toyotaro and if it wasn't clear I meant regardless of who was approving his work. It's not like I consider Toriyama's contributions in DBS to be free of criticism. The only reason I brought this up is because you're assuming favoritism for his OC is the only reasonable explanation which would require Toyotaro to have full creative control and little to no input from anyone else. I wasn't arguing that's a wrong opinion to have and only explaining that isn't the only opinion. I thought the scene worked for me because I grew to like Meerus as a character and how he's an Angel who wanted to do more than remain neutral.

[HeroR]

Even temporary deaths in Dragon Ball isn't this nonchalant. Despite knowing that people could be revived in the Buu Saga, everyone was horrified when Buu ate cities, Goten lost his shit when he saw his mom stepped on, and Denda was upset when Piccolo sold out the people of Earth to Buu to buy Goten and Trunks more time to train. Even Gotenks finally got serious when he learned Buu ate everyone in the Lookout. Hell, if we used the anime of Resurrection 'F' when Piccolo was killed, everyone was upset and pissed despite knowing that he could be revived. Same with the Resurrection 'F' movie when Freeza nuked the Earth no one went, 'well, we can just revived them'. They were upset to the point of tears.

Like I said before, deaths that were thought to be permanent resulted in a more emotional reaction. I didn't like how they weren't more upset over Moro terrorizing the universe but I can understand that it isn't the same as Meerus' permanent death and that Toyotaro consider that having more weight.

You're making assumptions. We don't know the level of involvement Toriyama has outside of him saying that Merus is an angel. That is literally all we know, especially when Toriyama himself wanted Toyo to have more creative freedom. So you can't hand wave anything with 'but Toriyama' or 'but the editors' because he isn't following an outline. This arc is Toyo's baby so for the lack of better words, he needs to own it. And it would still reek of creative favoritism for the above reasons since this chapter shows that Toyo can somewhat write emotional scenes, but chose not to do it with any other big moment except this one with a character he created.

I wasn't making assumptions or handwaving anything. I said it's fair to criticize Toyotaro and if it wasn't clear I meant regardless of who was approving his work. It's not like I consider Toriyama's contributions in DBS to be free of criticism. The only reason I brought this up is because you're assuming favoritism for his OC is the only reasonable explanation which would require Toyotaro to have full creative control and little to no input from anyone else. I wasn't arguing that's a wrong opinion to have and only explaining that isn't the only opinion. I thought the scene worked for me because I grew to like Meerus as a character and how he's an Angel who wanted to do more than remain neutral.

Except most all the examples I named were examples of deaths that the Z-Fighters knew weren't permanent. Yeah, they get more upset if they truly believed someone is dead for good, but it isn't like they're emotionless bricks otherwise unless you've been watching too much Dragon Ball Abridge. Heck, even in the Saiyan Saga when Piccolo was still alive, the Z-Fighters had meltdowns when one of their own got killed to the point that Krillin went one-man army on the Sabiermen.

That isn't what I said nor meant. I said it was favoritism that Merus got a far more emotional sendoff compared to everyone else in the Super manga and Merus gets to joined the ranks of people Goku cares so much about that he's willing to rage. To highlight how rare this is, Goku has only raged when Krillin and Roshi died in the original manga. In the Super anime, you can add Chi-Chi and Goten, also Jiren shooting the audience which also had Krillin in it. So if you're going to have Goku have a rage out moment to a character he has known for a very short time, you have to build towards it and not stick it in the chapter you kill off the character while also quoting Android 16.

That and Merus' death shouldn't have more weight than the Namekians when you considered that we got to know those Namekians in the Dragon Ball Z and they even lived with Bulma for half a year. So they deserved far more respect than what they were giving, especially treating the Super Namekian as a punchline.

As for Merus as a character, he ran afoul with too many bad OC cliches for me to care about him.

[Skar]

Except most all the examples I named were examples of deaths that the Z-Fighters knew weren't permanent. Yeah, they get more upset if they truly believed someone is dead for good, but it isn't like they're emotionless bricks otherwise unless you've been watching too much Dragon Ball Abridge. Heck, even in the Saiyan Saga when Piccolo was still alive, the Z-Fighters had meltdowns when one of their own got killed to the point that Krillin went one-man army on the Sabiermen.

But they weren't shown to emotionless bricks. You can say Toyotaro failed to show them being as emotional as during some of the previous deaths we've seen but not completely devoid of emotion. I agreed that they could've been shown more emotion during these scenes in the manga. From my own perspective after seeing the characters die so many times and resurrected throughout the series, I only really feel bad for a character when their death might be permanent. Many people predicted Meerus would sacrifice himself but I didn't think I would care.

That isn't what I said nor meant. I said it was favoritism that Merus got a far more emotional sendoff compared to everyone else in the Super manga and Merus gets to joined the ranks of people Goku cares so much about that he's willing to rage. To highlight how rare this is, Goku has only raged when Krillin and Roshi died in the original manga. In the Super anime, you can add Chi-Chi and Goten, also Jiren shooting the audience which also had Krillin in it. So if you're going to have Goku have a rage out moment to a character he has known for a very short time, you have to build towards it and not stick it in the chapter you kill off the character while also quoting Android 16.

I think part of the disagreement is that you're assuming Goku cared about Meerus as much as Krillin therefore the only reasonable explanation to you is that Toyotaro must be favoring his OC. No one was arguing that nor do I think that's what Toyotaro was trying to convey. That's why I said I didn't think it was anything groundbreaking because it seemed like it was based on #16's death with both sacrificing themselves by going against their intended purpose. I agree there could've been more buildup but I think there's enough going for it that your conclusion isn't the only reasonable one.

[GodVegetto91]

Will Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct happen?

I hope not. I don’t like that concept. It’s literally unneccesary and just another transformation more. The question then becomes: “When will it ever stop???”

Ofcourse a Super Saiyan version of UI is something I can still tolerate if they so must have it... But NEVER a “SSJ2” or “SSJ3” version of Ultra Instinct. That would literally be the breaking point for me.

[BWri]

Well, it's not rage as such - it's a jarring shock to his emotions, which he has to then achieve self-control in the face of; so, like Merus explained, it's the opposite of SSj. Goku's experiencing the 'jarring shock' right now; he should be achieving the 'self-control' (and thereby Ultra Instinct) in the next issue.

This makes sense though it still feels too Saiyan-y for my tastes, or rather too similar to Super Saiyan. With UI being a technique or state of being that theoretically any character can use if they are masterful enough (and this latest chapter also implied a strength barrier) it's strange that it's basically another SSJ or SSJ2 moment instead of something gained from, I don't know, intense meditation and dedication to "no-mindedness" which is a real principle of certain forms of martial arts. It's why I always thought Goku was perfectly suited for it. He has, what has to be the greatest mind for martial arts in the entire series. Maybe there's different ways to access it. All that said, I do think you're spot-on with how you explained it.

I think to this end, people who are comparing Merus's death to #16's are on the money, as arguably Gohan's SSj2 transformation is the 'moment' of Dragon Ball (I know everyone's different and has 'their' moment, but Gohan's awakening is probably up there for most as a super-memorable 'moment'); Toyotarou is probably similarly trying to achieve Super's defining 'moment' here (with the differences specific to Ultra Instinct rolled in), which is pretty risky, as it seems a little self-conscious; we'll have to see next month whether it achieves the payoff intended.

It's a big gamble for sure. It's kind of easy to predict though. If it's too similar, he'll be ridiculed as a copycat. If its mostly different but somewhat similar, he'll also be ridiculed as a copycat and lacking originality. I think either way it goes, it's set for a bad reaction due to how it was setup here, but he could surprise everyone. I'm keeping an open mind, though I do hope he avoids any other panel references to Goku's SSJ1 and Gohan's SSJ2 awakenings for his own sake more than anything.

They're not really rivals. If anything it's one-sided because Goku doesn't care and hasn't since Namek.

For all intents and purposes, they are, at least that's what Super is trying to present to us. The manga makes a better case for it since they continuously leapfrog over each other and it's not always one-sided.

They've also not been equals in the original series ever, and in Super outside of RoF since the anime added SSB Kaioken not long after and Vegeta's answer to that didn't come until 80 episodes later when Goku had UI waiting in the wings.

The closest they've been was probably during the lead-up to the Androids, with Vegeta being stated to likely be stronger by Piccolo, Goku's training partner at the time, so I guess, technically your statement is correct. It's difficult for me to think of moments where they were exactly equal, without the other holding something back. I think their base forms on Namek were comparable, so if they both went Oozaru, it'd probably be a pretty even fight. To be honest though, I don't believe they need to be 100% equals in strength to be considered rivals. I would personally consider them rivals after their first battle on Earth since Goku was training to surpass Vegeta. I'd also consider Piccolo their rival during Namek as well since they were all vying to be the strongest and to kill Frieza and kept leapfrogging over one another for the top spot, but I personally use the term a little more loosely. I understand if it has to be more explicit than that for you to consider someone a rival.

While the manga makes it more clear that they are equals, with both sometimes becoming far stronger than the other, the Super anime has had moments where Vegeta was stronger than Goku. Right after BoG, Vegeta trains with Whis before Goku and IIRC does get stronger than him, which re-ignites their rivalry. I mean, if you just want to consider them training partners, it's fine, but the effect is the same, they push one another to become stronger by improving themselves and sharpening the skills of the other. They are both also aiming for the top spot.

The problem with ‘he’s just learning’ is that even as recent as last year when he killed all the Namekians, that had no emotional weight with the merged Super Namekian being killed without Moro even looking as a punchline. It like all tragedies are treated as a footnote with no one really caring outside a comment or two about the genocide. Compared that to Merus’ end.

Vegeta cared, and for some reason that was enough for me. Probably because I hadn't forgiven him for slaughtering the Namekians the last time he was on Namek. Overall, you won't find any disagreement with me here. I don't really like how certain characters are treated as throwaways or how death and trauma are sometimes just glossed over like with Trunks whole world being erased. What an awful nihilistic ending. I think the only thing I'll say about that is it makes a little sense, when you consider that two sets of normal Dragon Balls exist along with a SUPER set and the limits of what they can do have been loosened more and more. Death is legitimately meaningless, unless it's permanent. Merus' death is likely permanent.

It’s obvious that Toyo cared for his OC, he wanted the audience to care too, so he put a lot of weight into Merus dying compared to everyone else who ever died or got erased. Which is another common fanfic mistake.

I don't really think it has anything to do with that, but if I were going with that train of thought, I'd say it makes sense. Writing for your own characters is a lot easier than writing someone elses. Trust me. There's always a barrier when working with someone elses character, a nagging twinge of doubt to if you're being true to author's character and using them correctly. At least with your own, things tend to come naturally, without as many doubting barriers.

I was thinking about Moro stealing the beans off Krillin to heal himself up

Oh no! At the very least, this would suck for the Androids ... I think.

[Kinokima]

Merus has trained Goku and fought Moro, so I think now his guess should be spot on. His previous miscalculation was due to not knowing Moro's full power. Now he does. Well he did, he is dead now. What other variable could he have missed? he even sealed his technique.

The only scenario I see Vegeta getting involved is if Goku doesn't unlock UI from the get go. Like the chapter starts and still can't do it, so he has to team up with a recovered Vegeta. And then he masters UI by the end of the chapter, ending with the same type of cliffhanger from the past 5 chapters: a new dude/power standing in front of Moro.

It wouldn't surprise me if they keep dragging the final fight, although it'd be hard and stupid to dismiss Merus' sacrifice and find another excuse for Goku to control his emotions.
But the setup is implying it's gonna be UI vs Moro. I really hope the power doesn't run out, it happened to Gotenks, to Vegito Blue, to ToP UI, I'm just tired of that.

I just don’t think it will be that straightforward because quite frankly it never is. I also don’t think the ending of a chapter will necessarily give away how the arc is ultimately going to end because again it usually doesn’t.


Like I said I could very well be wrong. I am not 100% certain. I just question people who think they absolutely know how the arc is going to end after the cliffhanger of every chapter.