"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Michsi]

I think you're missing my boarder point. If Goku was constantly more emotional in the Super manga, then fine. He wasn't. If anything, he's less emotional than the original manga, yet only became more emotional than usual when Toyo's personally made OC dies. Which is why the scene doesn't work for me and others, along with a lot of other issues. This would have been an issue even if Merus was a better written character, it would just been less annoying.

As for the bolded, we have no evidence of this, especially when we have other characters in this arc and the arcs before not acting in-character like Piccolo who said the infamous line, 'Vegeta isn't one to underestimate his opponent'. Like seriously, how did this line get past anyone? That and Toriyama isn't against Goku being portrayed too softly or overly emotional. He's against of Goku being too heroic or a 'righteous hero'. Those aren't the same as being too soft and emotional. For example, Toriyama would be against Goku saying that he fights people to protect them when he was talking to Merus in the flashback.

Also, 18 vs Ribrianne was a gag fight, which is what Toriyama usually corrects. The closest he have come to correcting an actual main story point for a character is with how Shin was original portrayed in the Future Trunks Saga.

Yes, which I see as a problem and why I said I'd rather have them err on the side of "too emotional"

He also corrected anime writers on how they intended to portray Jiren. Even in the Broly interviews it's been mentioned how he is very particular about Goku's characterization. I don't think he insists on controlling and correcting everything, or wants to have an iron grip on every single aspect, but this is Goku we're talking about. Piccolo's line is indeed a major head-scratcher but I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does not recall those events from the original. Vegeta's propensity to underestimate his opponents has never been acknowledged in any capacity in-universe or even by the writers as part of his character, so it's possible it didn't strike him as odd . Anyway, that was barely a line while this is a major story moment.

[Skar]

I don't really interpret most of those as dropped plot threads. There's certainly still time for Goku and Hit to become more than "pawns" in the gods' games, and that gets vindicated immediately when Goku decides to nope out of the arena. Goku's plotting, I always saw it as him simply wanting to manipulate Freeza into joining Team U7, nothing deeper than that. Freeza wanting to dominate the gods is a perfectly in-character motivation because he's an opportunistic bastard, but it's clearly not a desirable outcome. #17 wanting to wish for a boat or Jiren wanting to wish his master back could equally count as "dropped plot threads" by that logic.

"Dropped plot threads" was probably the wrong term to use. I meant more like manga or anime-exclusive scenes or ideas that don't affect the plot and unlikely to be brought up again. #17's wish wouldn't really count since it was acknowledged that he changed his wish so it's not something that left hanging. It was in both versions so likely from Toriyama's outline.

Toriyama seems like he's only taking his previous outlines into consideration so I think it's best if both versions don't add something that they know will likely be ignored. The production was said to be rushed so probably not much planning could've been done at the time. There have been a few fan recuts editing them into shorter arcs or movies but I wouldn't mind seeing an official version. I don't mean 100% stick to the outline since that would barely be a few episodes. I mean only with more planning involved closer to how Toriyama may have envisioned the arcs without any padding.

[HeroR]

I think you're missing my boarder point. If Goku was constantly more emotional in the Super manga, then fine. He wasn't. If anything, he's less emotional than the original manga, yet only became more emotional than usual when Toyo's personally made OC dies. Which is why the scene doesn't work for me and others, along with a lot of other issues. This would have been an issue even if Merus was a better written character, it would just been less annoying.

As for the bolded, we have no evidence of this, especially when we have other characters in this arc and the arcs before not acting in-character like Piccolo who said the infamous line, 'Vegeta isn't one to underestimate his opponent'. Like seriously, how did this line get past anyone? That and Toriyama isn't against Goku being portrayed too softly or overly emotional. He's against of Goku being too heroic or a 'righteous hero'. Those aren't the same as being too soft and emotional. For example, Toriyama would be against Goku saying that he fights people to protect them when he was talking to Merus in the flashback.

Also, 18 vs Ribrianne was a gag fight, which is what Toriyama usually corrects. The closest he have come to correcting an actual main story point for a character is with how Shin was original portrayed in the Future Trunks Saga.

Yes, which I see as a problem and why I said I'd rather have them err on the side of "too emotional"

He also corrected anime writers on how they intended to portray Jiren. Even in the Broly interviews it's been mentioned how he is very particular about Goku's characterization. I don't think he insists on controlling and correcting everything, or wants to have an iron grip on every single aspect, but this is Goku we're talking about. Piccolo's line is indeed a major head-scratcher but I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does not recall those events from the original. Vegeta's propensity to underestimate his opponents has never been acknowledged in any capacity in-universe or even by the writers as part of his character, so it's possible it didn't strike him as odd . Anyway, that was barely a line while this is a major story moment.

Except he was only 'too emotional' for an OC of all things. See the issue? Toyo not putting in the work to build the relationship between Goku and Merus just made it worse.

We're talking about movie, however, where Toriyama had more direct involvement. Remember, despite Toriyama correcting Jiren's personality, he didn't even bother to give Toppo Dypso personalities despite drawing them along with Jiren.

For the most part, Toriyama gives both the anime and manga staff free reign, which is why Goku's character between the manga and anime aren't the same. Heck, Goku in the Broly movie isn't the same as the Super manga despite people saying that Toriyama is move involved with the manga, it's actually closer to the anime's USS Goku. And again, the Super manga also had Goku characterized from the TOP onward as a fighter who always wins by finding a new form and outpowering his opponent to the point the say, 'I need more power' when talking to Roshi. That isn't Goku's character anywhere in the original manga or even in the first half the Super manga. So the idea that Toriyama is particular about Goku and would correct any mischaracterization isn't supported by history or what got into the Super manga.

On Piccolo, Toriyama reread his own manga at least twice according to him and Piccolo and is one of his favorites. So the whole 'he forgot', is thin. And while the line isn't important in the story, it's a major OOC moment, which is why it was mocked even by people who barely followed Dragon Ball. That and Vegeta's underestimate his opponents is commented on. Namely, when it came to Freeza pointed out how he underestimated him after he thought he became a Super Saiyan, Cell mocking Vegeta for letting him become perfect, and how Goku acknowledged that both him and Vegeta badly underestimated Buu. I mean, we had Trunks screaming in Vegeta's face that he was taking the Androids too lightly.

[Michsi]

I think you're missing my boarder point. If Goku was constantly more emotional in the Super manga, then fine. He wasn't. If anything, he's less emotional than the original manga, yet only became more emotional than usual when Toyo's personally made OC dies. Which is why the scene doesn't work for me and others, along with a lot of other issues. This would have been an issue even if Merus was a better written character, it would just been less annoying.

As for the bolded, we have no evidence of this, especially when we have other characters in this arc and the arcs before not acting in-character like Piccolo who said the infamous line, 'Vegeta isn't one to underestimate his opponent'. Like seriously, how did this line get past anyone? That and Toriyama isn't against Goku being portrayed too softly or overly emotional. He's against of Goku being too heroic or a 'righteous hero'. Those aren't the same as being too soft and emotional. For example, Toriyama would be against Goku saying that he fights people to protect them when he was talking to Merus in the flashback.

Also, 18 vs Ribrianne was a gag fight, which is what Toriyama usually corrects. The closest he have come to correcting an actual main story point for a character is with how Shin was original portrayed in the Future Trunks Saga.

Yes, which I see as a problem and why I said I'd rather have them err on the side of "too emotional"

He also corrected anime writers on how they intended to portray Jiren. Even in the Broly interviews it's been mentioned how he is very particular about Goku's characterization. I don't think he insists on controlling and correcting everything, or wants to have an iron grip on every single aspect, but this is Goku we're talking about. Piccolo's line is indeed a major head-scratcher but I wouldn't be surprised if he actually does not recall those events from the original. Vegeta's propensity to underestimate his opponents has never been acknowledged in any capacity in-universe or even by the writers as part of his character, so it's possible it didn't strike him as odd . Anyway, that was barely a line while this is a major story moment.

Except he was only 'too emotional' for an OC of all things. See the issue? Toyo not putting in the work to build the relationship between Goku and Merus just made it worse.

We're talking about movie, however, where Toriyama had more direct involvement. Remember, despite Toriyama correcting Jiren's personality, he didn't even bother to give Toppo Dypso personalities despite drawing them along with Jiren.

For the most part, Toriyama gives both the anime and manga staff free reign, which is why Goku's character between the manga and anime aren't the same. Heck, Goku in the Broly movie isn't the same as the Super manga despite people saying that Toriyama is move involved with the manga, it's actually closer to the anime's USS Goku. And again, the Super manga also had Goku characterized from the TOP onward as a fighter who always wins by finding a new form and outpowering his opponent to the point the say, 'I need more power' when talking to Roshi. That isn't Goku's character anywhere in the original manga or even in the first half the Super manga. So the idea that Toriyama is particular about Goku and would correct any mischaracterization isn't supported by history or what got into the Super manga.

On Piccolo, Toriyama reread his own manga at least twice according to him and Piccolo and is one of his favorites. So the whole 'he forgot', is thin. And while the line isn't important in the story, it's a major OOC moment, which is why it was mocked even by people who barely followed Dragon Ball. That and Vegeta's underestimate his opponents is commented on. Namely, when it came to Freeza pointed out how he underestimated him after he thought he became a Super Saiyan, Cell mocking Vegeta for letting him become perfect, and how Goku acknowledged that both him and Vegeta badly underestimated Buu. I mean, we had Trunks screaming in Vegeta's face that he was taking the Androids too lightly.

Again, it's not about Merus, it's about Goku. Even if 'we' didn't get to develop any attachment to Merus, knowing Goku's character is enough to at least understand where this reaction is coming from. Something like this would push him over the edge under the right circumstances. The emotional build-up may not have convinced most people, which for many is essential in selling such a moment, but least the reaction on Goku's part is appropriate

As for the line mishap, I've read my stuff several times and it's not even 5% of the length of DB and I still forget things from it. Vegeta's blunders were important in the moment, but they didn't stick to his overall character image. What the story keeps telling us is how great and talented he is and at most mentions his arrogance as a character flaw.
Anyway, if this were really such a big deal, I think Toriyama would not have let it happen. Not saying his modern interpretation doesn't sometimes feel at odds with how wrote these very same characters in the original, but once again, we are talking about a huge important Goku moment at the climax of the arc- hard to think this is where he'd go 'yeah, do whatever'

[HeroR]

Again, it's not about Merus, it's about Goku. Even if 'we' didn't get to develop any attachment to Merus, knowing Goku's character is enough to at least understand where this reaction is coming from. Something like this would push him over the edge under the right circumstances. The emotional build-up may not have convinced most people, which for many is essential in selling such a moment, but least the reaction on Goku's part is appropriate

As for the line mishap, I've read my stuff several times and it's not even 5% of the length of DB and I still forget things from it. Vegeta's blunders were important in the moment, but they didn't stick to his overall character image. What the story keeps telling us is how great and talented he is and at most mentions his arrogance as a character flaw.
Anyway, if this were really such a big deal, I think Toriyama would not have let it happen. Not saying his modern interpretation doesn't sometimes feel at odds with how wrote these very same characters in the original, but once again, we are talking about a huge important Goku moment at the climax of the arc- hard to think this is where he'd go 'yeah, do whatever'

It's about both. You can't separate either character from that scene no more than you can separate 16 from Gohan during their scene together. And you keep going back to 'knowing Goku's character'. We know Goku's character and his character has more constantly never gotten this kind of emotional response from a character like Merus. Which is why the entire scene reads as Goku becoming too emotional, not that he shouldn't have emotions at all. This is even more apparent in the Super manga where Goku for the most part is less emotional even compared to the original manga. So you can't have him suddenly jumped in emotion response and it not look weird or outright force.

So Goku's reaction isn't appropriate given how the Super manga wrote his character up until that moment.

It did stick to his character image since the character keep telling Vegeta that he's underestimating his opponents with Trunks in particularly hitting him over the head with it several dozen times. It's just not called on in the same manner as Piccolo in the Super anime calling out Gohan for going smug super every time he gets a power-up.

Just because Toriyama doesn't see it as a 'big deal' doesn't mean that it isn't. Just as Goku being portrayed as a meat head may not be a big deal to him, but it character assassinate a big part of Goku's character that has been there from the beginning. Same with Piccolo saying utterly untrue things where a big part of his character is how smart he is. And you're again assuming that Toriyama cares when for the most part, he lets Toyo do whatever he wants outside of correcting gags. If Toriyama was so tight-fisted about how Goku was portrayed, then Toyo's version of Goku would be closer to the original manga or at least the Dragon Ball movies Toriyama directly wrote. He isn't. Goku as I pointed out isn't even inline with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

[DiscountDabi]

Merus’s Death to 16’s isn’t really a comparable situation . The only thing that is in-common is that a Character died and the other reacted. Other than that, Vastly different scenes. First of all, Gohan and 16 don’t have an onscreen relationship. In fact I’m pretty sure that’s the first time they ever meet face to face.

Switch out 16 for anyone and the scene still plays out the same. The Character of Android 16 (and I’m really stretching the word character here) is inconsequential to Gohans transformation. All that needed to happen was someone telling him a similar thing, and then Cell killing them.

Even if we didn’t see a majority of it, at least Merus and Goku had previous interactions and had time to get to know each other before this sacrifice.

[Grand Marshal 1]

What was the basis of a rumor that Vegeta would get access to Ultra Instinct in this or the next chapter? Fake leaks I assume?

[Michsi]

Again, it's not about Merus, it's about Goku. Even if 'we' didn't get to develop any attachment to Merus, knowing Goku's character is enough to at least understand where this reaction is coming from. Something like this would push him over the edge under the right circumstances. The emotional build-up may not have convinced most people, which for many is essential in selling such a moment, but least the reaction on Goku's part is appropriate

As for the line mishap, I've read my stuff several times and it's not even 5% of the length of DB and I still forget things from it. Vegeta's blunders were important in the moment, but they didn't stick to his overall character image. What the story keeps telling us is how great and talented he is and at most mentions his arrogance as a character flaw.
Anyway, if this were really such a big deal, I think Toriyama would not have let it happen. Not saying his modern interpretation doesn't sometimes feel at odds with how wrote these very same characters in the original, but once again, we are talking about a huge important Goku moment at the climax of the arc- hard to think this is where he'd go 'yeah, do whatever'

It's about both. You can't separate either character from that scene no more than you can separate 16 from Gohan during their scene together. And you keep going back to 'knowing Goku's character'. We know Goku's character and his character has more constantly never gotten this kind of emotional response from a character like Merus. Which is why the entire scene reads as Goku becoming too emotional, not that he shouldn't have emotions at all. This is even more apparent in the Super manga where Goku for the most part is less emotional even compared to the original manga. So you can't have him suddenly jumped in emotion response and it not look weird or outright force.

So Goku's reaction isn't appropriate given how the Super manga wrote his character up until that moment.

It did stick to his character image since the character keep telling Vegeta that he's underestimating his opponents with Trunks in particularly hitting him over the head with it several dozen times. It's just not called on in the same manner as Piccolo in the Super anime calling out Gohan for going smug super every time he gets a power-up.

Just because Toriyama doesn't see it as a 'big deal' doesn't mean that it isn't. Just as Goku being portrayed as a meat head may not be a big deal to him, but it character assassinate a big part of Goku's character that has been there from the beginning. Same with Piccolo saying utterly untrue things where a big part of his character is how smart he is. And you're again assuming that Toriyama cares when for the most part, he lets Toyo do whatever he wants outside of correcting gags. If Toriyama was so tight-fisted about how Goku was portrayed, then Toyo's version of Goku would be closer to the original manga or at least the Dragon Ball movies Toriyama directly wrote. He isn't. Goku as I pointed out isn't even inline with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

There is no other character like Merus, I keep saying that. I mean Goku went to war for Upa's father and gave up his grandfather 's dragon ball for someone he barely knew for like 5 minutes. And this was back when the franchise was still struggling with handling a serious tone. Merus has been around for almost 2 years and I feel like even if we'd have been given an additional chapter focusing on building up their relationship people still would've retaliated because Merus just didn't strike a chord with audiences.

The problem with Piccolo's line is that it accidentally makes him look dumb. If they had him say that line with the intention of showing how bad he is at judging people then you could say they were going against his portrayal from the original. What made it worse was that it was presented as insightful and to be taken as true, which means the writers weren't remembering the events like the rest of us did.

Again, vague incidents when Goku is either too jovial or too childish is one thing, we are talking about a poignant character moment.

Additionally I personally also attribute a lot of that distress to Goku's sense of failure. Merus essentially had to step in because Goku couldn't defeat Moro before.

By the way, I read the chapter again, and my mind doesn't change. He was essentially a really nice person that helped out Goku even if it meant his death and there is no way Goku wouldn't feel strongly over seeing someone like that die before his very eyes. Also, he isn't that emotional.

[batistabus]

The question is not "is Merus important enough to Goku", it's "is Merus' sacrifice enough to trigger a substantial shock to Goku' emotions". To me, the answer is a clear yes. It has nothing to do with how close Goku and Merus are, how much they love each other, or whatever. Merus was Goku's mentor, and he sacrificed his life so that Goku could complete his training. In Goku's mind, he had failed as a student; if he had achieved completed MnG before this, Merus would still be alive. Sure, we know they shared some quality time together, but this is not about a series of specific touching comradery moments that happened off-screen. I get why some might desire that content, but this is a story modeled on Toriyama's style after all.

[Ziegander]

Vegeta can no longer beat Goku now that he has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will.

lol ok we really, really don't need to keep beating the dead horse about Vegeta beating Goku. Who even cares about that anymore? But there is literally zero evidence Goku has attained at-will, completed UI. We don't even know for sure if he's going to attain it in the next few moments (I think he will, to be clear, but hell, he might fail). I would say that Goku having failed to even properly use Sign and still needing a trigger to awaken completed UI more points toward Goku, if he attains the form again, still will not be able to go into at will from now on. I don't think he's there yet, even if he does use it to smash Moro to pieces.

His best hopes of ever besting Goku again would be for him to go back to Planet Yardrat and resume his Spirit Control training for as long as neccesary if he’s to surpass him again. Which I suppose he will if he’s smart and non egotistical enough.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect to ever see anyone visit Yardrat again, at least not for another 20 years

Zero evidence??? Really? That is just stupid. And you should really do your research first before making such uninformed remarks.

In this manga chapter Merus quite literally stated that Goku’s UI training WORKED. All he needs is 1 final push to complete it. That push was Merus’ erasure before Goku’s eyes. His training is done. Finished. By next months chapter, Goku has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will. He will from then on be able to tap into it whenever he wants. Please read the manga chapter again. I’m tired of having to explain stuff that’s already been explained publicly in the story itself.

Okay, calm down. Breathe.

Merus says Goku needs one last push to activate completed UI, not that if Goku is able to activate UI again that he will have fully mastered it and be able to do it at-will.

So, yes, if we take Merus' words to mean that, with the push resulting from his erasure, Goku can activate completed UI, then we can also assume that that means that in the next chapter Goku will activate completed UI. I do. Some people still aren't sure, but I think Toyo would be wasting his time and ours if Goku doesn't.

But just because Goku is able to achieve the completed UI again for the first time since the Tournament of Power doesn't mean or even imply that Goku will henceforth have fully mastered the ability or that he can activate it at-will. Maybe he will be able to, but there is no concrete evidence yet to suggest that will be the case.

[Koitsukai]

The question is not "is Merus important enough to Goku", it's "is Merus' sacrifice enough to trigger a substantial shock to Goku' emotions". To me, the answer is a clear yes. It has nothing to do with how close Goku and Merus are, how much they love each other, or whatever. Merus was Goku's mentor, and he sacrificed his life so that Goku could complete his training. In Goku's mind, he had failed as a student; if he had achieved completed MnG before this, Merus would still be alive. Sure, we know they shared some quality time together, but this is not about a series of specific touching comradery moments that happened off-screen. I get why some might desire that content, but this is a story modeled on Toriyama's style after all.

I agree. Let me add that Merus basically responded to Goku by telling him he hadn't failed, he only needed just one more push, and then he'd be the actual GOAT.

Also, the flashback wasn't about Goku or why would he cry over Merus. It was about Merus. To show why he respects Goku so much to the point he is willing to give up his immortality for him and the galaxy.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The arc better be coming to a close soon. There is no logical reason Moro would stand a chance against a determined MUI Goku. He's already weakened and he can't copy powers anymore from what I can tell(also good luck grabbing Goku in this state anyway) and even if MUI Goku can't finish the job, I'm sure Vegeta can defuse him in his weakened state if it came down to it. Moro will be easy to kill as he'll be frail and old and if he fucking escapes again I will strangle someone because the writing would be falling off the rails and it would make this arc look really bad if Moro were to ESCAPE AGAIN. The only reason he escaped was because Vegeta wouldn't shut up and kill him, if he does it again I'll be ripping my hair out.

Like how incompetent would Goku be if he and Vegeta couldn't kill Moro in his weakened state? That would be some ballsy writing. Also Beerus could legit chase him himself or ask Whis to transport him over to Moro's location if he was inclined to pursue him.

[Grand Marshal 1]

The only reason he escaped was because Vegeta wouldn't shut up and kill him, if he does it again I'll be ripping my hair out.

No please. Dragon Ball isn't worth your health and appearance

[HeroR]

Again, it's not about Merus, it's about Goku. Even if 'we' didn't get to develop any attachment to Merus, knowing Goku's character is enough to at least understand where this reaction is coming from. Something like this would push him over the edge under the right circumstances. The emotional build-up may not have convinced most people, which for many is essential in selling such a moment, but least the reaction on Goku's part is appropriate

As for the line mishap, I've read my stuff several times and it's not even 5% of the length of DB and I still forget things from it. Vegeta's blunders were important in the moment, but they didn't stick to his overall character image. What the story keeps telling us is how great and talented he is and at most mentions his arrogance as a character flaw.
Anyway, if this were really such a big deal, I think Toriyama would not have let it happen. Not saying his modern interpretation doesn't sometimes feel at odds with how wrote these very same characters in the original, but once again, we are talking about a huge important Goku moment at the climax of the arc- hard to think this is where he'd go 'yeah, do whatever'

It's about both. You can't separate either character from that scene no more than you can separate 16 from Gohan during their scene together. And you keep going back to 'knowing Goku's character'. We know Goku's character and his character has more constantly never gotten this kind of emotional response from a character like Merus. Which is why the entire scene reads as Goku becoming too emotional, not that he shouldn't have emotions at all. This is even more apparent in the Super manga where Goku for the most part is less emotional even compared to the original manga. So you can't have him suddenly jumped in emotion response and it not look weird or outright force.

So Goku's reaction isn't appropriate given how the Super manga wrote his character up until that moment.

It did stick to his character image since the character keep telling Vegeta that he's underestimating his opponents with Trunks in particularly hitting him over the head with it several dozen times. It's just not called on in the same manner as Piccolo in the Super anime calling out Gohan for going smug super every time he gets a power-up.

Just because Toriyama doesn't see it as a 'big deal' doesn't mean that it isn't. Just as Goku being portrayed as a meat head may not be a big deal to him, but it character assassinate a big part of Goku's character that has been there from the beginning. Same with Piccolo saying utterly untrue things where a big part of his character is how smart he is. And you're again assuming that Toriyama cares when for the most part, he lets Toyo do whatever he wants outside of correcting gags. If Toriyama was so tight-fisted about how Goku was portrayed, then Toyo's version of Goku would be closer to the original manga or at least the Dragon Ball movies Toriyama directly wrote. He isn't. Goku as I pointed out isn't even inline with Dragon Ball Super Broly.

There is no other character like Merus, I keep saying that. I mean Goku went to war for Upa's father and gave up his grandfather 's dragon ball for someone he barely knew for like 5 minutes. And this was back when the franchise was still struggling with handling a serious tone. Merus has been around for almost 2 years and I feel like even if we'd have been given an additional chapter focusing on building up their relationship people still would've retaliated because Merus just didn't strike a chord with audiences.

The problem with Piccolo's line is that it accidentally makes him look dumb. If they had him say that line with the intention of showing how bad he is at judging people then you could say they were going against his portrayal from the original. What made it worse was that it was presented as insightful and to be taken as true, which means the writers weren't remembering the events like the rest of us did.

Again, vague incidents when Goku is either too jovial or too childish is one thing, we are talking about a poignant character moment.

Additionally I personally also attribute a lot of that distress to Goku's sense of failure. Merus essentially had to step in because Goku couldn't defeat Moro before.

By the way, I read the chapter again, and my mind doesn't change. He was essentially a really nice person that helped out Goku even if it meant his death and there is no way Goku wouldn't feel strongly over seeing someone like that die before his very eyes. Also, he isn't that emotional.

Knew someone was going to mention Upa’s dad. And no, doesn’t work. Goku was mad sure, but not overall emotional. He also wanted to bring Bora back for Upa’s sake along with the fact Bora was indirectly killed because of him. Also, Merus died on his terms compared to Bora’s death where he was impaled by his own spear.

Merus has been around for two years with almost no development on him as a character nor as someone who really bonded with Goku. That’s on Toyo being a lousy storyteller. You just highlighted Toyo’s failure.

It doesn’t matter if it was accidental or not. Anyone who just scans the manga should have caught how that statement was BS. It shouldn’t even left the first draft. And that’s only the most apparent example of Piccolo being dumb in this arc.

A poignant character moment that was not earned. For Goku on Namek and even the King Piccolo Saga, those moments were buildup by Toriyama despite him not planning for them because he took the time to bond Goku, Roshi, and Krillin. They weren’t just props made to die. And not even that, the Super anime did a better job making us care for 17 in about a year to the point that him ‘dying’ was felt.

It wouldn’t be the first time people died because Goku screwed up. He could have killed Buu but didn’t for the sake of the next generation and that got everyone on Earth including his family killed. Goku’s actions also allowed Freeza to nuke the Earth and his failure to stop Zamasu got a timeline erased. So in terms of Goku’s screwup, this would barely be a five. Especially when this happened because Vegeta failed to kill Moro when he had him dead to rights. We aren’t even mentioning Beerus.

[GodVegetto91]

lol ok we really, really don't need to keep beating the dead horse about Vegeta beating Goku. Who even cares about that anymore? But there is literally zero evidence Goku has attained at-will, completed UI. We don't even know for sure if he's going to attain it in the next few moments (I think he will, to be clear, but hell, he might fail). I would say that Goku having failed to even properly use Sign and still needing a trigger to awaken completed UI more points toward Goku, if he attains the form again, still will not be able to go into at will from now on. I don't think he's there yet, even if he does use it to smash Moro to pieces.



Honestly, I wouldn't expect to ever see anyone visit Yardrat again, at least not for another 20 years

Zero evidence??? Really? That is just stupid. And you should really do your research first before making such uninformed remarks.

In this manga chapter Merus quite literally stated that Goku’s UI training WORKED. All he needs is 1 final push to complete it. That push was Merus’ erasure before Goku’s eyes. His training is done. Finished. By next months chapter, Goku has attained Completed Ultra Instinct at will. He will from then on be able to tap into it whenever he wants. Please read the manga chapter again. I’m tired of having to explain stuff that’s already been explained publicly in the story itself.

Okay, calm down. Breathe.

Merus says Goku needs one last push to activate completed UI, not that if Goku is able to activate UI again that he will have fully mastered it and be able to do it at-will.

So, yes, if we take Merus' words to mean that, with the push resulting from his erasure, Goku can activate completed UI, then we can also assume that that means that in the next chapter Goku will activate completed UI. I do. Some people still aren't sure, but I think Toyo would be wasting his time and ours if Goku doesn't.

But just because Goku is able to achieve the completed UI again for the first time since the Tournament of Power doesn't mean or even imply that Goku will henceforth have fully mastered the ability or that he can activate it at-will. Maybe he will be able to, but there is no concrete evidence yet to suggest that will be the case.

It makes ZERO sense for Goku to NOT be able to tap into the full UI from now on at will. Goku has spent 6 MONTHS training to literal near death with an Angel in a special time chamber no less. It’s been years and 2 arcs since he first tapped into UI. Goku has definitely EARNED it now. Stop downplaying him. Merus himself literally stated that his training is DONE. All he needs is one last final push to trigger it. That was Merus’ death. It seems you don’t want him to master UI for personal dislike reasons. But remember that evidence doesn’t care about a person’s desires.

If you want to look for any kind of “Nervage” to Goku’s new power, then simply understand that Whis and the other Angels will still be far stronger than Goku. Since that’s what they objectively are. And you’ll be happy! Goku will not be the strongest fighter in the multiverse, that title is reserved for the Grand Priest.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

The only reason he escaped was because Vegeta wouldn't shut up and kill him, if he does it again I'll be ripping my hair out.

No please. Dragon Ball isn't worth your health and appearance

I suppose. But honestly, it would be terrible writing for Moro to live/escape. Especially while BEERUS is there. If Beerus felt like it, he'd just ask Whis to warp him to Moro's location and kill him by himself.

[Grand Marshal 1]

The only reason he escaped was because Vegeta wouldn't shut up and kill him, if he does it again I'll be ripping my hair out.

No please. Dragon Ball isn't worth your health and appearance

I suppose. But honestly, it would be terrible writing for Moro to live/escape. Especially while BEERUS is there. If Beerus felt like it, he'd just ask Whis to warp him to Moro's location and kill him by himself.

Moro is too evil to survive. Freeza was an exception I guess, but even he died twice.

Moro is here to die. He is the villain that will finally be killed in the timeline, since no other antagonist has been killed by the cast. Copy Vegeta wasn't really a kill and Freeza died only due to Whis interfering. So yeah, Moro is here to die.

[batistabus]

It makes ZERO sense for Goku to NOT be able to tap into the full UI from now on at will. Goku has spent 6 MONTHS training to literal near death with an Angel in a special time chamber no less. It’s been years and 2 arcs since he first tapped into UI. Goku has definitely EARNED it now. Stop downplaying him. Merus himself literally stated that his training is DONE. All he needs is one last final push to trigger it. That was Merus’ death. It seems you don’t want him to master UI for personal dislike reasons. But remember that evidence doesn’t care about a person’s desires.

I've been thinking of different ways they could justify Goku not mastering MUI after this arc...and there's still this line:

Spoiler:

It's entirely possible Goku has not eaten since then, and would not be able to utilize MnG if he ate like he normally does. If that's the case, I could see Goku forsaking the technique completely after this and finding a different path to strength....

Right! I was gonna comment on that when I read your post. Finally Jaco couldn't keep up. His eyesight must be insane if it took Whis to speed blitz his vision.....assuming he did it via speed and not some angel ability. Personally, i like to think Whis is just crazy fast.

Also, the flashback wasn't about Goku or why would he cry over Merus. It was about Merus. To show why he respects Goku so much to the point he is willing to give up his immortality for him and the galaxy.

Exactly

[The Undying]

Some of you guys are being impossibly pedantic.

Characters are allowed to feel different emotions based on the circumstance. Characters are allowed to react differently depending on the context. Goku is allowed to feel emotionally shocked while directly witnessing a comrade die, or failing as a student, as much as he's allowed to feel more quietly remorseful in a similar situation after reflecting on his actions.

It's never black and white. It's never free of context. To argue otherwise is to advocate for one-dimensional character caricatures, not characters.

Relax, let the story do its thing, and maybe judge the writing from a broader, more critical perspective instead of exhaustingly hairsplitting every little panel and piece of dialogue written by Toyotaro. You don't have to be that reductive; Toriyama isn't.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Some of you guys are being impossibly pedantic.

Characters are allowed to feel different emotions based on the circumstance. Characters are allowed to react differently depending on the context. Goku is allowed to feel emotionally shocked while directly witnessing a comrade die, or failing as a student, as much as he's allowed to feel more quietly remorseful in a similar situation after reflecting on his actions.

It's never black and white. It's never free of context. To argue otherwise is to advocate for one-dimensional character caricatures, not characters.

Relax, let the story do its thing, and maybe judge the writing from a broader, more critical perspective instead of exhaustingly hairsplitting every little panel and piece of dialogue written by Toyotaro. You don't have to be that reductive; Toriyama isn't.

If I do say myself, this forum has a particular taste of overcomplicating the not-so-philosophical work that is a Shonen like Dragon Ball, but I personally view these moments of debate as a mean of people growing themselves, with the trigger being this story. In the end, nothing in here affects the resulting product.