"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

I see a lot of people on the internet saying that it doesn’t make sense for Goku to awaken UI through anger since UI was stated to be triggered through the opposite way. But they are all missing a key element, Merus specifically stated that the key to unlocking Ultra Instinct is through “self control” or “finding peace” in the anger. So anger is still needed at first, a huge shock to your emotions is still neccesary to happen, otherwise you have nothing to overcome. First, Goku experiences extreme rage through Merus’ death, then, immediately right after, he finds peace with his emotions and self control, and thus, voila! He has mastered it! It’s so obvious!

[LoganForkHands73]

Some of you guys are being impossibly pedantic.

Characters are allowed to feel different emotions based on the circumstance. Characters are allowed to react differently depending on the context. Goku is allowed to feel emotionally shocked while directly witnessing a comrade die, or failing as a student, as much as he's allowed to feel more quietly remorseful in a similar situation after reflecting on his actions.

It's never black and white. It's never free of context. To argue otherwise is to advocate for one-dimensional character caricatures, not characters.

Relax, let the story do its thing, and maybe judge the writing from a broader, more critical perspective instead of exhaustingly hairsplitting every little panel and piece of dialogue written by Toyotaro. You don't have to be that reductive; Toriyama isn't.

It's always the tiniest details, isn't it? Pages and pages of bland back-and-forth over one damn panel. The idea that Goku's having an emotional breakdown over Merus's death is a massive exaggeration in itself. Either way, he's allowed to feel sad/slightly pissed off.

Yes, there is a strong possibility that it's foreshadowing Goku attaining Completed Ultra Instinct considering the reference. But there's every possibility that it's just a red herring.


I came to this forum for lively, even-handed discussions and debates about worthwhile topics, and I've mostly been satisfied, but recently all I've been seeing is constant nitpicking about the most trivial, inconsequential details. What's worse is all the rage I've seen about things that haven't actually happened and this is a good example -- Chapter 64 isn't actually out yet. We don't know what will happen.

I'm no saint, I've not been the biggest fan of this arc just like everyone, I've moaned about some relatively minor things that bug me, but I like to think that I look at things fairly on the whole. With this scene, I thought it was well-handled but that it would have been better if Goku and Merus's bonding was shown to us much earlier. But the moment itself is well done and packs a punch, and the choreography in the fight between Merus and Moro is some of the best Toyotaro's ever done. It feels like there's generally such a vitriolic hate-boner against Super that both positive discussion and any truly deep criticism about it is completely shut-down in favour of this.

[Tai Lung]

Dodging is not an angel skill and before you say it, nothing suggests that he was using UI to dodged Broly. Whis did interfere, but since the Angel Code is written by lawyers apparently, you only get erased if you fight at full power or used your angel's powers to cause harm. Like Merus dodged Moro back in Namek and wasn't disappearing. Same with the beginning of the chapter when he gave Moro a bloody nose and he was fine because he did it with his knockoff Power Pole.

the angels are not always with the UI active?
merus wasn't using his full power ... that's why he's take surprised to moro in a occasion ..

[Michsi]

Knew someone was going to mention Upa’s dad. And no, doesn’t work. Goku was mad sure, but not overall emotional. He also wanted to bring Bora back for Upa’s sake along with the fact Bora was indirectly killed because of him. Also, Merus died on his terms compared to Bora’s death where he was impaled by his own spear.

Merus has been around for two years with almost no development on him as a character nor as someone who really bonded with Goku. That’s on Toyo being a lousy storyteller. You just highlighted Toyo’s failure.

It doesn’t matter if it was accidental or not. Anyone who just scans the manga should have caught how that statement was BS. It shouldn’t even left the first draft. And that’s only the most apparent example of Piccolo being dumb in this arc.

A poignant character moment that was not earned. For Goku on Namek and even the King Piccolo Saga, those moments were buildup by Toriyama despite him not planning for them because he took the time to bond Goku, Roshi, and Krillin. They weren’t just props made to die. And not even that, the Super anime did a better job making us care for 17 in about a year to the point that him ‘dying’ was felt.

It wouldn’t be the first time people died because Goku screwed up. He could have killed Buu but didn’t for the sake of the next generation and that got everyone on Earth including his family killed. Goku’s actions also allowed Freeza to nuke the Earth and his failure to stop Zamasu got a timeline erased. So in terms of Goku’s screwup, this would barely be a five. Especially when this happened because Vegeta failed to kill Moro when he had him dead to rights. We aren’t even mentioning Beerus.

Because he had barely met the guy. I would've mentioned it earlier, but I didn't really think it was necessary. Again, there's no real comparison for this circumstance.

The examples you gave of him are moments I genuinely didn't like how he reacted and I do not think they did him justice. This is far closer to what I believe his true nature is like. Not an uncaring adrenaline junkie that shrugs off the erasure of an entire time line, but someone who cares. I don't need him to be introspective or see him feel guilty about the consequences of his actions, I know what he is about and he is far from a bleeding heart MC. This here is like the bare minimum.

And I repeat, he really isn't that emotional here either. If he'd broken down in tears or something ridiculous like that I'd get why people were rolling their eyes, but it's really not the case.

And if it results in him getting his power up, it's like Merus said. he only needed a little push. If Goku starts monologing about how much Merus meant to him as he powers yup, then yeah, bad turn, but for now, it just an appropriate amount of distress.

In term of Piccolo, I feel he is a interesting example of fan attitude vs depiction. That line is truly indefensible, but that is the one large stand out of this arc. Nothing else struck me as particularly offensive with him, but people would scrutinize his actions to such a degree that inevitably you'd find something to point a finger at.

[Michsi]

Knew someone was going to mention Upa’s dad. And no, doesn’t work. Goku was mad sure, but not overall emotional. He also wanted to bring Bora back for Upa’s sake along with the fact Bora was indirectly killed because of him. Also, Merus died on his terms compared to Bora’s death where he was impaled by his own spear.

Merus has been around for two years with almost no development on him as a character nor as someone who really bonded with Goku. That’s on Toyo being a lousy storyteller. You just highlighted Toyo’s failure.

It doesn’t matter if it was accidental or not. Anyone who just scans the manga should have caught how that statement was BS. It shouldn’t even left the first draft. And that’s only the most apparent example of Piccolo being dumb in this arc.

A poignant character moment that was not earned. For Goku on Namek and even the King Piccolo Saga, those moments were buildup by Toriyama despite him not planning for them because he took the time to bond Goku, Roshi, and Krillin. They weren’t just props made to die. And not even that, the Super anime did a better job making us care for 17 in about a year to the point that him ‘dying’ was felt.

It wouldn’t be the first time people died because Goku screwed up. He could have killed Buu but didn’t for the sake of the next generation and that got everyone on Earth including his family killed. Goku’s actions also allowed Freeza to nuke the Earth and his failure to stop Zamasu got a timeline erased. So in terms of Goku’s screwup, this would barely be a five. Especially when this happened because Vegeta failed to kill Moro when he had him dead to rights. We aren’t even mentioning Beerus.

Because he had barely met the guy. I would've mentioned it earlier, but I didn't really think it was necessary. Again, there's no real comparison for this circumstance.

The examples you gave of him are moments I genuinely didn't like how he reacted and I do not think they did him justice. This is far closer to what I believe his true nature is like. Not an uncaring adrenaline junkie that shrugs off the erasure of an entire time line, but someone who cares. I don't need him to be introspective or see him feel guilty about the consequences of his actions, I know what he is about and he is far from a bleeding heart MC. This here is like the bare minimum.

And I repeat, he really isn't that emotional here either. If he'd broken down in tears or something ridiculous like that I'd get why people were rolling their eyes, but it's really not the case.

And if it results in him getting his power up, it's like Merus said. he only needed a little push. If Goku starts monologing about how much Merus meant to him as he powers yup, then yeah, bad turn, but for now, it just an appropriate amount of distress.

In term of Piccolo, I feel he is a interesting example of fan attitude vs depiction. That line is truly indefensible, but that is the one large stand out of this arc. Nothing else struck me as particularly offensive with him, but people would scrutinize his actions to such a degree that inevitably you'd find something to point a finger at.

One more thing I forgot to mention: I do think there is a general anti Toyo bias that permeates interpretation of the story. Vegeta fans attitude before and after it turned out he wasn't going to get W says a lot.

[DiscountDabi]

Ok so this is a bit off topic but I have a cool idea for a few arcs branching from this one. So the kicking off point is Goku wanting to use the Super Dragon Balls to Wish to bring back Merus (Dont worry, in this story it doesn’t happen) and they break off into two groups. Gohan, Krillin, and Yamcha search Universe 7 for the Super Dragon Balls While Goku Vegeta and Piccolo go to Universe 6.

You can have a bit of fun with The Universe 7 guys having cool adventures, not really the focus here. Most of it would be on Planet Sadala, Learning More about Hit and going to Universe 6. This actually leads into a legitimate way for Piccolo to catch up to Goku and Vegeta.

So basically what I have is that the namekian god Zalama created the Super Dragon Balls. And given how it works with Kami and Guru, if the creator dies then the super dragon balls no longer work. So my idea is that Zalama split himself apart and populated the Nameks of Universe 6 and 7, which is why the Super Dragon Balls are in those 2 universes. And that if enough Namekians Fused Back together then they would eventually become the greater whole.

This would actually lead into a kind of “Lord Slug” reboot similar to that of Broly. And giving a new powerful bad guy to fight, giving Piccolo something to do, and making him stronger at the same time.

And then after these arcs finish you could have them gather the super dragon balls and then...Super Shadow Dragons. Its gonna be hard to justify powerful bad guys with Goku Mastering Ultra Instinct so this seems like the obvious direction to go.

[theherodjl]

Does anyone else get the suspicion that Merus isn't actually erased? Rather, he was merely recalled by Daishinkan and that "erasure" in this case is just a form of banishment from a particular place? I say this because the Angels have always had a certain aura of mystery surrounding them, including some visuals hinting that they might have sinister motives even though they ultimately do not. Do you think that its possible that they are keeping up some kind of ruse to make it seem like they're cold, logical beings who are easily-willing to erase one of their own for any hint of partiality when really, they just like playing tricks on the minds of mortals?

[GodVegetto91]

Does anyone else get the suspicion that Merus isn't actually erased? Rather, he was merely recalled by Daishinkan and that "erasure" in this case is just a form of banishment from a particular place? I say this because the Angels have always had a certain aura of mystery surrounding them, including some visuals hinting that they might have sinister motives even though they ultimately do not. Do you think that its possible that they are keeping up some kind of ruse to make it seem like they're cold, logical beings who are easily-willing to erase one of their own for any hint of partiality when really, they just like playing tricks on the minds of mortals?

Uhm No. Merus is erased. He broke the Angelic code. Plain and simple. There’s no way for him to fake it. Occam’s Razor is in control here.

[ssj3kakarot]

Regarding the ongoing conversation, the arc's not done. Since Vegeta explained the feature of Forced Spirit Fission as being able to defuse, I'm pretty sure we're going to see that at some point. That's pretty much the coolest application of the technique, so it would be weird not to see it, although not guaranteed.

Even though Merus prevented his own abilities from being copied, when he cut off Moro's hand, the hand did not disappear, and that gem was not sealed. I could see some wacky shenanigans going on where Moro reattaches the hand somehow (or eats it), creates an opportunity with magic, and copies Migatte no Gokui. That would be really bad, and it would likely require Vegeta (and maybe others) to get involved. I really don't see Goku winning this outright.

I was going to comment on this but saw that you beat me to it! I'm not sure if they will make use of it, but it clearly has a strong "Buu saga" feel to it. The hand is clearly severed, the jewel in his palm very much intact. They even mention the "THUD" it makes behind Merus as it hits the ground. This could be used against Goku somehow which would make it vital for Vegeta to step up.

[theherodjl]

Uhm No. Merus is erased. He broke the Angelic code. Plain and simple. There’s no way for him to fake it. Occam’s Razor is in control here.

It wouldn't be "faking it" when he's an inexperienced Angel who might still be out of the loop among the elder Angels. Merus may very well have believed it to be true just like everyone else, not being privy to everything that his seniors are aware of. He could have simply been materialized back to Daishinkan, learning that the "erasure" consequence was in actuality, a part of his training as an Angel and growth as an individual. Whis and many of the other Angels could also have been tricked by this lesson set by their father and that would explain why Whis is being rather nonchalant about Merus' fate.

[The Bastard.]

Uhm No. Merus is erased. He broke the Angelic code. Plain and simple. There’s no way for him to fake it. Occam’s Razor is in control here.

It wouldn't be "faking it" when he's an inexperienced Angel who might still be out of the loop among the elder Angels. Merus may very well have believed it to be true just like everyone else, not being privy to everything that his seniors are aware of. He could have simply been materialized back to Daishinkan, learning that the "erasure" consequence was in actuality, a part of his training as an Angel and growth as an individual. Whis and many of the other Angels could also have been tricked by this lesson set by their father and that would explain why Whis is being rather nonchalant about Merus' fate.

Then Beerus reaction wouldn't make any sense. As would the line of having to explain themselves to Zeno

[theherodjl]

Then Beerus reaction wouldn't make any sense. As would the line of having to explain themselves to Zeno

Beerus could simply be out of the loop as well. He isn't an Angel and doesn't pay heed to much else besides eating, sleeping, and doing his job every number of decades. Its not out of the question that Beerus would just believe whatever Whis and the other Angels tell him since he's not personally invested in their hierarchy.

[HeroR]

Dodging is not an angel skill and before you say it, nothing suggests that he was using UI to dodged Broly. Whis did interfere, but since the Angel Code is written by lawyers apparently, you only get erased if you fight at full power or used your angel's powers to cause harm. Like Merus dodged Moro back in Namek and wasn't disappearing. Same with the beginning of the chapter when he gave Moro a bloody nose and he was fine because he did it with his knockoff Power Pole.

the angels are not always with the UI active?
merus wasn't using his full power ... that's why he's take surprised to moro in a occasion ..

So far, nothing suggest that UI is 'always on'. Whis did say that he was always on guard, and then promptly stepped in shit so take that as you will.

Because he had barely met the guy. I would've mentioned it earlier, but I didn't really think it was necessary. Again, there's no real comparison for this circumstance.

The examples you gave of him are moments I genuinely didn't like how he reacted and I do not think they did him justice. This is far closer to what I believe his true nature is like. Not an uncaring adrenaline junkie that shrugs off the erasure of an entire time line, but someone who cares. I don't need him to be introspective or see him feel guilty about the consequences of his actions, I know what he is about and he is far from a bleeding heart MC. This here is like the bare minimum.

As for Bora, he barely knew the guy, but his death was still on him. He died because he tried to fight Tao in his steed and his actions made Up an orphan. So he felt responsibility to make things right. Not because he was overall fond of Bora. In fact, he was closer to Upa.

And I repeat, he really isn't that emotional here either. If he'd broken down in tears or something ridiculous like that I'd get why people were rolling their eyes, but it's really not the case.

And if it results in him getting his power up, it's like Merus said. he only needed a little push. If Goku starts monologing about how much Merus meant to him as he powers yup, then yeah, bad turn, but for now, it just an appropriate amount of distress.

In term of Piccolo, I feel he is a interesting example of fan attitude vs depiction. That line is truly indefensible, but that is the one large stand out of this arc. Nothing else struck me as particularly offensive with him, but people would scrutinize his actions to such a degree that inevitably you'd find something to point a finger at.

One more thing I forgot to mention: I do think there is a general anti Toyo bias that permeates interpretation of the story. Vegeta fans attitude before and after it turned out he wasn't going to get W says a lot.

You can not like the reaction, but the fact is that they happened and Toriyama directly wrote it. So this is less about how Goku constantly reacts and more personal opinion on how you think Goku should react. The fact is, Goku is an uncaring adrenaline junkie most of the time. He has moments of caring and guilt, but for the most part trauma is water off a duck's back unless it's someone he really cares for. This is the same person who talked about his grandfather dying and being abandoned in the woods like it was something normal to the point that Bulma asked why was he so cheerful.

You can be 'emotional' without breaking down into tears. Like Goku when Krillin was killed by Freeza didn't cry. Goku is very emotional in that scene, for him.

Okay, I'll give another example. Piccolo fighting 73 for the first time. Are you telling me that a battle genius like Piccolo don't know how to counter his own moves? Goku fought Cell who was superior to him without using his full power and Goku ran circles around Cell skill-wise partly because he know how to counter all of Cell's stolen moves. Even Gohan knew how to counter Piccolo's techniques. It isn't me looking for issues with Piccolo, he is honestly badly written in this arc. In fact, Super manga Piccolo has never been written well. That line about Vegeta was just so blatant that you couldn't explain it away.

That's anti-Dragon Ball in general since people got on the writer of the episode where Vegeta got rung out in the TOP, like he decided that Vegeta would get eliminated. In fact, the entire fandom turned into one big circle jerk about Vegeta losing and Goku getting UI again to the point that it made reading Dragon Ball discussion unbearable. Compared to that, this is mild.

[Skar]

Relax, let the story do its thing, and maybe judge the writing from a broader, more critical perspective instead of exhaustingly hairsplitting every little panel and piece of dialogue written by Toyotaro. You don't have to be that reductive; Toriyama isn't.

I know I've been guilty of that. If something comes down to opinion, chances are their opinion won't change regardless of how many pages the debate goes on for. Everyone offers their viewpoint but sometimes it's best to agree to disagree since they would reach that point after several pages anyway. I sometimes look for reasoning that makes it easier to get over something and move on quicker.

If there was an iffy anime-only or manga-only scene, I think "maybe they were rushed so hopefully they have more time to iron out the details in future arcs or movies" or "It's only in one version so it's probably not in Toriyama's outline". If something is confirmed to come directly from Toriyama and I prefer it didn't, I go to the next step and use some of the following: "all authors pass their prime eventually" or "Maybe it's meant to parody a modern anime or self-parody of an idea he has used before".

These don't really change my opinion of the scene or idea I didn't like but it makes me consider the possible reasoning behind it so I don't get too worked up over it. I might disagree but it could've made sense from the perspective of whoever wrote it or they really were rushed and didn't have time to consider the implications of that particular scene.

[Michsi]

You can not like the reaction, but the fact is that they happened and Toriyama directly wrote it. So this is less about how Goku constantly reacts and more personal opinion on how you think Goku should react. The fact is, Goku is an uncaring adrenaline junkie most of the time. He has moments of caring and guilt, but for the most part trauma is water off a duck's back unless it's someone he really cares for. This is the same person who talked about his grandfather dying and being abandoned in the woods like it was something normal to the point that Bulma asked why was he so cheerful.

You can be 'emotional' without breaking down into tears. Like Goku when Krillin was killed by Freeza didn't cry. Goku is very emotional in that scene, for him.

Okay, I'll give another example. Piccolo fighting 73 for the first time. Are you telling me that a battle genius like Piccolo don't know how to counter his own moves? Goku fought Cell who was superior to him without using his full power and Goku ran circles around Cell skill-wise partly because he know how to counter all of Cell's stolen moves. Even Gohan knew how to counter Piccolo's techniques. It isn't me looking for issues with Piccolo, he is honestly badly written in this arc. In fact, Super manga Piccolo has never been written well. That line about Vegeta was just so blatant that you couldn't explain it away.

That's anti-Dragon Ball in general since people got on the writer of the episode where Vegeta got rung out in the TOP, like he decided that Vegeta would get eliminated. In fact, the entire fandom turned into one big circle jerk about Vegeta losing and Goku getting UI again to the point that it made reading Dragon Ball discussion unbearable. Compared to that, this is mild.

Which I already mentioned. Yes, I believe modern day Goku has become a little too blase which a lot of people find pretty disconcerting . I know that the Buu Saga had a good number of moments in which Goku was like that too, but as I stated before, I chalk that up to the pace Toriyama set up for that particular arc.


I honestly do not see Goku's reaction as so emotional to classify it as out of character. It's just a specific and rare circumstance.

I actually looked up the fight against Cell and I have not come across any mention or visual example of Goku running circles around Cell because he knew how to counter his moves. Are you referring to those added anime scenes?
Yes, I can totally believe that Piccolo is less prepared to counter his own attacks than someone who trained since childhood to constantly defend against those attacks. I believe Gohan out right states that. It's a smart subversion to "no one should know my techniques better than me". Piccolo splitting in half and fighting against himself was a nice filler scene in the anime, but he has never once done that in the manga. This is a perfect example of people exaggerating an issue which I personally had no problem with and is at least passable.

Another one I encountered on twitter. They were lambasting Piccolo's statement about how fusion was now also off the table as a last resort for them because Moro copied Vegeta's fission technique; the were saying that obviously if Goku and Vegeta fused not only would Gogeta also know fission, he'd also be stronger than Moro and easily unfuse him. Except Vegeta was lying beaten and unconscious on that very same page and no one was even considering the possibility that he was referring to Goku and Gohan. The reach and interpretation is always excessively uncharitable .

My example with Vegeta was more about how fandom attitude in general. For many, up until the "Vegeta doesn't win" chapter, the Moro arc was really great or interesting. It had the same problems, but people were willing to let them slide or just didn't notice them. Now people are disappointed and suddenly the arc is riddled with problems.

[LoganForkHands73]

Which I already mentioned. Yes, I believe modern day Goku has become a little too blase which a lot of people find pretty disconcerting . I know that the Buu Saga had a good number of moments in which Goku was like that too, but as I stated before, I chalk that up to the pace Toriyama set up for that particular arc.


I honestly do not see Goku's reaction as so emotional to classify it as out of character. It's just a specific and rare circumstance.

I actually looked up the fight against Cell and I have not come across any mention or visual example of Goku running circles around Cell because he knew how to counter his moves. Are you referring to those added anime scenes?
Yes, I can totally believe that Piccolo is less prepared to counter his own attacks than someone who trained since childhood to constantly defend against those attacks. I believe Gohan out right states that. It's a smart subversion to "no one should know my techniques better than me". Piccolo splitting in half and fighting against himself was a nice filler scene in the anime, but he has never once done that in the manga. This is a perfect example of people exaggerating an issue which I personally had no problem with and is at least passable.

Another one I encountered on twitter. They were lambasting Piccolo's statement about how fusion was now also off the table as a last resort for them because Moro copied Vegeta's fission technique; the were saying that obviously if Goku and Vegeta fused not only would Gogeta also know fission, he'd also be stronger than Moro and easily unfuse him. Except Vegeta was lying beaten and unconscious on that very same page and no one was even considering the possibility that he was referring to Goku and Gohan. The reach and interpretation is always excessively uncharitable .

My example with Vegeta was more about how fandom attitude in general. For many, up until the "Vegeta doesn't win" chapter, the Moro arc was really great or interesting. It had the same problems, but people were willing to let them slide or just didn't notice them. Now people are disappointed and suddenly the arc is riddled with problems.

If I remember rightly, it wasn't necessarily 73's usage of Piccolo's moves that gave him the edge but the fact that he has inexhaustible stamina like Gero's Androids, which Jaco failed to mention until Piccolo was wearing himself out.

And I'm guessing the Twitter geniuses expected someone to prop up and puppeteer the unconscious Vegeta to do the Fusion Dance "Weekend at Bernie's"-style.

I don't get the idea that Vegeta has somehow got the short-end of the stick in Super, like he isn't the deuteragonist next to Goku and given a massive amount of focus in every arc. The fact that he hasn't beaten a main enemy singlehandedly is somehow the only thing missing that would finally give him The Full Relevancy. I'm fairly certain that Vegeta's win-loss record is about on par with Goku, maybe even better. In the Champa arc, he beat three-fifths of the Universe 6 team in the tournament and only lost to Hit because of his "hax" time abilities which he couldn't have possibly anticipated. In the Zamasu arc, he beat down Black a few times and in the manga at least, he's given more focus as Black's true competition. And at least in the anime, Vegeta gets a shit-tonne of eliminations, the second most after Goku, which culminates in his defeating a newly ascended Hakaishin singlehanded. Vegeta already contributes a lot to every arc -- I'm convinced that the only reason people want him to win is because it'd be cathartic and "nice to see", little to do with progressing his character.

[Tamagon]

Goku's reaction makes sense considering the amount of time in-universe he spent with Merus, doing the thing he loves most (fighting). The issue is that we the readers haven't really gotten to know Merus that well, and this is a series that usually gets the readers very well used to a character before killing them off (how much time did we spend with Krillin before he got killed off in the Piccolo Daimao arc? even with #16, he was at least in a *long* arc) so there is a disconnect. And that's not what you want the readers to be feeling at such a pivotal point in the story.

The arc was fine up to this point, but someone (Toyo or Toriyama, idk) blew their load too early. We should've gotten another arc with Merus before killing him off and spurring Goku into gaining MUI. The ideas aren't bad, but it's held back by the monthly manga format. The anime could turn this into something great, assuming we get another anime and not just more movies.

[Kinokima]

Which I already mentioned. Yes, I believe modern day Goku has become a little too blase which a lot of people find pretty disconcerting . I know that the Buu Saga had a good number of moments in which Goku was like that too, but as I stated before, I chalk that up to the pace Toriyama set up for that particular arc.


I honestly do not see Goku's reaction as so emotional to classify it as out of character. It's just a specific and rare circumstance.

I actually looked up the fight against Cell and I have not come across any mention or visual example of Goku running circles around Cell because he knew how to counter his moves. Are you referring to those added anime scenes?
Yes, I can totally believe that Piccolo is less prepared to counter his own attacks than someone who trained since childhood to constantly defend against those attacks. I believe Gohan out right states that. It's a smart subversion to "no one should know my techniques better than me". Piccolo splitting in half and fighting against himself was a nice filler scene in the anime, but he has never once done that in the manga. This is a perfect example of people exaggerating an issue which I personally had no problem with and is at least passable.

Another one I encountered on twitter. They were lambasting Piccolo's statement about how fusion was now also off the table as a last resort for them because Moro copied Vegeta's fission technique; the were saying that obviously if Goku and Vegeta fused not only would Gogeta also know fission, he'd also be stronger than Moro and easily unfuse him. Except Vegeta was lying beaten and unconscious on that very same page and no one was even considering the possibility that he was referring to Goku and Gohan. The reach and interpretation is always excessively uncharitable .

My example with Vegeta was more about how fandom attitude in general. For many, up until the "Vegeta doesn't win" chapter, the Moro arc was really great or interesting. It had the same problems, but people were willing to let them slide or just didn't notice them. Now people are disappointed and suddenly the arc is riddled with problems.

If I remember rightly, it wasn't necessarily 73's usage of Piccolo's moves that gave him the edge but the fact that he has inexhaustible stamina like Gero's Androids, which Jaco failed to mention until Piccolo was wearing himself out.

And I'm guessing the Twitter geniuses expected someone to prop up and puppeteer the unconscious Vegeta to do the Fusion Dance "Weekend at Bernie's"-style.

I don't get the idea that Vegeta has somehow got the short-end of the stick in Super, like he isn't the deuteragonist next to Goku and given a massive amount of focus in every arc. The fact that he hasn't beaten a main enemy singlehandedly is somehow the only thing missing that would finally give him The Full Relevancy. I'm fairly certain that Vegeta's win-loss record is about on par with Goku, maybe even better. In the Champa arc, he beat three-fifths of the Universe 6 team in the tournament and only lost to Hit because of his "hax" time abilities which he couldn't have possibly anticipated. In the Zamasu arc, he beat down Black a few times and in the manga at least, he's given more focus as Black's true competition. And at least in the anime, Vegeta gets a shit-tonne of eliminations, the second most after Goku, which culminates in his defeating a newly ascended Hakaishin singlehanded. Vegeta already contributes a lot to every arc -- I'm convinced that the only reason people want him to win is because it'd be cathartic and "nice to see", little to do with progressing his character.

I think it is easy to only blame Vegeta fans for this but Vegeta is bashed constantly for not beating a main villain on social media. Oh look Vegeta took another L, Vegeta is worthless again, Vegeta fails again, etc

Most of the time when he does beat characters they are basically fodder and those moments are mostly forgettable. You certainly don’t see merchandise of them or these moments in games. But it is what it is.


I enjoyed the Toppo win at the time but the fandom ruined it for me by saying how horrible the form was an MUH Cabba and MUH Bulma and complaining about surviving Final Explosion again. In the end the Toppo win was an afterthought. It didn’t even last 1/2 and episode and looking at the aftermath of it no one really cares about the Toppo fight

Instead after the TOP I got to hear constantly how Goku and Freeza made a better team and even Freeza beats a main bad guy.

Is it important that Vegeta beats a main villain? No not at all. I also don’t think that should be the end all of importance for a character but it’s unfortunately Dragon Ball fandom as a whole that put so much weight on these type of moments.


But honestly even if Vegeta ever beats a main villain people will still constantly bitch and complain so I am sure it will only give momentary satisfaction.

[DiscountDabi]

Is it important that Vegeta beats a main villain? No not at all. I also don’t think that should be the end all of importance for a character but it’s unfortunately Dragon Ball fandom as a whole that put so much weight on these type of moments.


But honestly even if Vegeta ever beats a main villain people will still constantly bitch and complain so I am sure it will only give momentary satisfaction.

This kinda comes from the fact that a large part of the community only care about a character if they are strong. This couldn’t be more clear in arcs like this one and the Tournament of Power.

I kinda blame power scaling for this. Its why people care so much about how strong the Z fighters are and that Gohan is a jabrony now. Heck Vegeta stopped Moro’s energy drain and restored namek, but no one cares because he didn’t beat the big bad.

[MajinVegetaPD]

But honestly even if Vegeta ever beats a main villain people will still constantly bitch and complain so I am sure it will only give momentary satisfaction.

It would at least be nice to find out how I would react in that situation.