"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Good. No filler Blue Kaioken in the movies or manga.

this is still canon ...just visually different

You didn't read the story's text where it states that Goku is using the "principle [the laws]" of Kaioken. Where he was temporary powering up at the cost of his body. Just like the rules of Kaioken. The newly colored manga images shows there is no actual Kaioken being used on top of Super Saiyan Blue.

Good. No filler Blue Kaioken in the movies or manga.

People seriously need to stop throwing the word filler at everything they don't like.

Kaioken Blue isn't in the authoritative movies.

[The Undying]

And for what it's worth, I do think we're talking something like a 2x increase on Goku's usual Blue power when he uses it - else, what's the point in making the comparison with Kaio-Ken, if it doesn't even yield a similar sort of power-up?

My impression of there being a comparison, rather than strict identification, was to draw similarities to the drawbacks of Kaioken while avoiding having the fans/readers make any specific estimations about multipliers (or, indeed, if his strength was multiplied at all).

I don't think it's possible to argue one way or the other what kind of boost it yielded. Whis describes it as "drawing deep from his reserves for a temporary boost, regardless of what damage it might cause", which I suspect is similar in principle to Vegeta's power-stressed Blue near the end of the Future Trunks arc.

[GodVegetto91]

I will never like the Full Colors of the SUPER Manga. It’s infinitely inferior to the Z Manga’s Full Color back in the day! Somehow...

I prefer Super in black and white. But I prefer the old Z manga by Toriyama in Full Color.

[Magnificent Ponta]

My impression of there being a comparison, rather than strict identification, was to draw similarities to the drawbacks of Kaioken while avoiding having the fans/readers make any specific estimations about multipliers (or, indeed, if his strength was multiplied at all).

I don't think it's possible to argue one way or the other what kind of boost it yielded. Whis describes it as "drawing deep from his reserves for a temporary boost, regardless of what damage it might cause", which I suspect is similar in principle to Vegeta's power-stressed Blue near the end of the Future Trunks arc.

Well, since Whis mentions both the boost and the damage, then to me it seems logical to conclude from Tenshinhan and Kuririn drawing the comparison that they are comparable in both respects.

If Toyotarou wanted fans not to draw boost comparisons, then mentioning that there is a boost in play here, comparing the attempt to Kaio-Ken and then asking whether that would even work seems an odd way of going about avoiding it, to me. If you just mean he probably doesn't have so specific a boost in mind, I can accept that as a possibility - it wouldn't be the first time that a fan inference from a scene was more specific than authorial intention in Dragon Ball, I guess.

My interpretation is that I tend to think of it as though his strict ki size was multiplied by 2ish, but that he didn't get nearly as much of a practical change in applied power, since as Jiren mentions, he can't wield it properly. Personally, I've tended to read that back as a problem with Kaio-Ken in Goku's previous uses of the actual technique, thus giving an additional explanation as to why he doesn't beat Vegeta in the short time he uses Kaio-Ken x3, or why his Kamehameha does so little to Freeza when he unleashes Kaio-Ken x20 and technically has an equal Battle Power to Freeza at 50% - he can't use that power properly, so he gets a seriously diminished effect from it compared to strict Battle Power. Just my interpretation, though.

[The Undying]

If you just mean he probably doesn't have so specific a boost in mind, I can accept that as a possibility - it wouldn't be the first time that a fan inference from a scene was more specific than authorial intention in Dragon Ball, I guess.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The point is that Whis describes it as Goku overexerting his body with every last bit of strength he can muster, which would logically go beyond their full power by default, at the cost of severely straining it. I think that's what prompted Kuririn's comparison to the Kaioken.

In other words, it wasn't the exact degree of powering up being compared, but rather the principle behind Goku powering up.

To be clear, I'm not against any particular interpretation. I just think it's vague enough that you can practically make any argument as to whether it's 2 times, 5 times, 10 times, less than 2 times, etc. - and likely intentionally vague, since I don't think numbers have ever been an exact science in DB outside of the story explicitly mentioning them.

[TheSaiyanGod]

V-Jump already left clear Blue Kaioken was a thing and that it had a blue aura. They named it.

Well, actually the article just says that Goku used the same principles as Kaioken, and not the technique itself. This movement is even compared to the transformation of Kale who focuses on raw power, causing damage to the body.

Blue Kaioken" seems just a convenient name for the situation considering that the anime makes use of this combination

I meant Goku kaioken-ishly augmenting his power happened, no matter what people feel about it.

Also, there isn't much more to Kaioken than that. He amplifies his power like kaioken using the same principles, it takes a toll on the body, and has a similar, distinctive, aura(not the ssb aura, the kaioken aura but blue instead of red like stated by V-Jump)
It's not even a conclusion the fandom came to, it was included and never questioned in the dialogue for a reason, and while it isn't kaioken stacked on top of blue like in the anime, for practical purposes, it pretty much is.

Yeah, I agree with you, and I honestly don't understand why Toyo was specifically vague about it. If it's the technique itself, isn't it easier to say that he used Kaioken? And if it isn't, wouldn't it be better to just use the comparison made with Kale's transformation instead of bringing Kaioken to the table?

Anyway, Krillin and Tenshinhan only talk about Kaioken when Whis explains the method Goku is using. So, if there was a red aura indeed, at least Krillin should already notice that Goku was using the Kaioken without needing Whis's explanation (in this case, it seems consistent with the official coloring). Anyway, the supplementary materials do not seem to come to a consensus since on the official DB website, it is said that Goku can use the Kaioken on top of SSB to amplify his power(this is a more direct approach than VJUMP and the manga took, since both did not classify this state as Blue + Kaioken, just something similar)

[Tai Lung]

You didn't read the story's text where it states that Goku is using the "principle [the laws]" of Kaioken. Where he was temporary powering up at the cost of his body. Just like the rules of Kaioken. The newly colored manga images shows there is no actual Kaioken being used on top of Super Saiyan Blue.

you are assuming ... it is as if I said that caulifla also has the berserker transformation because he has green hair in some panels that goku does not show red color does not change that it is the kaioken ..
if V jump say "Kaioken blue" seems quite clear to me ... especially when referenced in the manga
Another thing would be to speculate that there is another way ... something that is never explained

[Miracles]

You didn't read the story's text where it states that Goku is using the "principle [the laws]" of Kaioken. Where he was temporary powering up at the cost of his body. Just like the rules of Kaioken. The newly colored manga images shows there is no actual Kaioken being used on top of Super Saiyan Blue.

you are assuming ... it is as if I said that caulifla also has the berserker transformation because he has green hair in some panels that goku does not show red color does not change that it is the kaioken ..
if V jump say "Kaioken blue" seems quite clear to me ... especially when referenced in the manga
Another thing would be to speculate that there is another way ... something that is never explained

I'm assuming? No I'min step with the narration. Since the actual story stated Goku is using the "principles of Kaioken." Meaning he just powered up even more damaging his body like Kaioken. Jiren even compares his use to Kale's way of focusing raw power that harms. It wasn't Kaioken he used but a similar tactic. Not to mention It doesn't show KK on top of Blue like the anime. V-Jump isn't the story. It does not precede the plot.

[Tai Lung]

I'm assuming? No I'min step with the narration. Since the actual story stated Goku is using the "principles of Kaioken." Meaning he just powered up even more damaging his body like Kaioken. Jiren even compares his use to Kale's way of focusing raw power that harms. It wasn't Kaioken he used but a similar tactic. Not to mention It doesn't show KK on top of Blue like the anime. V-Jump isn't the story. It does not precede the plot.

is that they are totally different ... kale is a special transformation like that of broly of which until now neither the anime, neither the manga nor the movie or nobody has explained anything that or how it works so jiren should not even know how works ..
incidentally ... goku cannot increase his power any more when using SSB 100% he no longer has anything else ... so the kaioken is the only option for that scene to be coherent which is because they make a indirect reference to that technique
Another thing would be that goku has a similar technique things that they are never said

V jump also stated about SSBE, which was confirmed later in the manga

[Grand Marshal 1]

I call it power stressed blue, boom no issues. The Kaio Ken or it's so called 'principles' are power stressing, in this case without a speed drawback.

[Skar]

I was checking the spine arts for a different thread and reminded of the discussion for Super's. I always had the updated spine arts in mind so I noticed something when looking over the one for the first release:



Some people theorized the yellow bar in Super's might be Uub riding the Nimbus. It's a nice reference to this one with Uub going the opposite direction of Goku. Also this one only showed the antagonists up to the Cell saga so Super's may not necessarily show every major antagonist. This doesn't indicate that it's ending soon and there's likely going to be at least one more arc but I just thought this was interesting.

[FlpShimizu]

I was checking the spine arts for a different thread and reminded of the discussion for Super's. I always had the updated spine arts in mind so I noticed something when looking over the one for the first release:

Some people theorized the yellow bar in Super's might be Uub riding the Nimbus. It's a nice reference to this one with Uub going the opposite direction of Goku. Also this one only showed the antagonists up to the Cell saga so Super's may not necessarily show every major antagonist. This doesn't indicate that it's ending soon and there's likely going to be at least one more arc but I just thought this was interesting.

I'd really like that. I remember Toyo saying they were already thinkng about reaching EoZ in an interview, but it's been a long time. Not only that, Uub was mentioned in both manga and anime (even appeared in the manga). Surely that means he's still part of the plans for the series in the minds of Toyo, Toriyama and Toei.

Do we have the spine arts available from Super put together like this?

[Skar]

Do we have the spine arts available from Super put together like this?

There was an image shared on here before but the link no longer works. I found this one going up to volume 9 and for volumes 12 and 13 individually. Volumes 10 and 11 showed the rest of Hit and Jiren. It looks like two more volumes to complete the image of Belmod and then it might show Broly or Moro.

Spoiler:

[EGonzo]

Do we have the spine arts available from Super put together like this?

There was an image shared on here before but the link no longer works. I found this one going up to volume 9 and for volumes 12 and 13 individually. Volumes 10 and 11 showed the rest of Hit and Jiren. It looks like two more volumes to complete the image of Belmod and then it might show Broly or Moro.

Spoiler:

Why do the characters look so off-putting in the covers? I understand he's going for stylized drawings, but they just look so unappealing

[Cipher]

I think his name is a pun on "Moloch", the Canaanite deity who's seen as a Satanic figure nowadays. You're right that his design is very heavily rooted in Satanic imagery so a goat-like appearance was only natural.

Was browsing back through this thread and happened to see this. Moro’s name is actually based on a regional term for shark meat in Japan (moro, no change). Saganbo is also named after a shark-meat dish, no change.

The similarity to “Moloch” might have been something that prompted Toyotarō to pick that name over other food-based options, or it may have been a happy accident.

[Jack Bz]

I was checking the spine arts for a different thread and reminded of the discussion for Super's. I always had the updated spine arts in mind so I noticed something when looking over the one for the first release:



Some people theorized the yellow bar in Super's might be Uub riding the Nimbus. It's a nice reference to this one with Uub going the opposite direction of Goku. Also this one only showed the antagonists up to the Cell saga so Super's may not necessarily show every major antagonist. This doesn't indicate that it's ending soon and there's likely going to be at least one more arc but I just thought this was interesting.

Cracking up at the fact that, of all characters, Yajirobe is the only character other than Goku to appear twice on these spines. Just why???

[Matches Malone]

Cracking up at the fact that, of all characters, Yajirobe is the only character other than Goku to appear twice on these spines. Just why???

Toriyama forgot he drew him the first time, but it was too late to change by the time he caught the mistake.

[LoganForkHands73]

I was checking the spine arts for a different thread and reminded of the discussion for Super's. I always had the updated spine arts in mind so I noticed something when looking over the one for the first release:



Some people theorized the yellow bar in Super's might be Uub riding the Nimbus. It's a nice reference to this one with Uub going the opposite direction of Goku. Also this one only showed the antagonists up to the Cell saga so Super's may not necessarily show every major antagonist. This doesn't indicate that it's ending soon and there's likely going to be at least one more arc but I just thought this was interesting.

Cracking up at the fact that, of all characters, Yajirobe is the only character other than Goku to appear twice on these spines. Just why???

Because Brown Yajirobe is too iconic to not include next to Orange Yajirobe. We need them both for FighterZ.

[Matches Malone]

Due to V-Jump releasing earlier this month, the 18th, we should get a look at the draft images any day now.

[Alruneia]

Due to V-Jump releasing earlier this month, the 18th, we should get a look at the draft images any day now.

I'd expect them somewhere around the 11th. The drafts have usually been released one week before the full chapter's release. Not that it's always been one week on the dot, but roughly around then.
This month's drafts are gonna be interesting, because we'll most likely get to see what Toyotaro was actually going for with the end of Chapter 63, which will "solve" the discussion on whether "Ultra Instinct has been turned into just another Super Saiyan transformation now" or not.