"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[DevilKing99]

We still no jack about Moro at all as a character besides him being evil.

Moro does not even know what a God Of destruction is despite being around for over 1 million years, Jaco knew who Beerus was as soon as he saw him in rof.

Moro and this arc itself feels like a straight up filler.

I just want this arc to end.

[DevilKing99]

So...

This chapter went down as I hoped and predicted... MUI Goku annihilated Full Power Moro with zero difficulty, and I think that's as should have been expected. Personally, I thought Omen should have been more than a match for less than full power Moro quite a few chapters ago, but that's gone with the wind. Full Power Moro stands no chance against Goku, and Goku gives it to him, no quarter, beats the shit out of him, makes him look pathetic. Alright. So far so predictable.

But then Goku just... what? Decides to... not? What the fuck is Goku planning now? Is he literally going to voluntarily "power down" from MUI to fight Moro as, well, whatever "an Earthling" even means? Is this supposed to somehow tie into wherever Gohan's development is going to (if not six feet under the ground)? Is Goku going to fight him in base form or something? I mean, sure, Moro's so whipped, a boulder has bested him at this point. Roshi could come a give him a Coup de Grace, I'd think, albeit, perhaps dangerously.

Where is this going now? Toyo, what exactly are you playing at? I didn't expect the W in this chapter, but... that ending is... odd. Beerus, I think, has plenty of right to be concerned, because, GoD, so do I.

Indeed, this is one of the few times Beerus is actually caring about his job and concerned about the protection of the cosmos, and for that I respect him. Let's hope Beerus just erases Moro and frees us from this arc. I am 100% rooting for him.

Seriously Moro is a worthless character, can somebody just please kill him off already.

Feel sad for Merus? I knew nothing about him I don't feel a thing for him because just like in all the other arc toyo fails at developing characters completely.

This feels like a filler Naruto arc, even UI can't save it from feeling like filler.

[GodVegetto91]

We still no jack about Moro at all as a character besides him being evil.

Moro does not even know what a God Of destruction is despite being around for over 1 million years, Jaco knew who Beerus was as soon as he saw him in rof.

Moro and this arc itself feels like a straight up filler.

I just want this arc to end.

Over 10 million*

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Just kill him already. Moro is really overstaying his welcome and I just want him to die already.

And if all else fails and the Z screw this up, lets just hope Beerus finally says 'Alright I'm going in' and ends the fight before Moro pulls some magic trick out of his hat.

[Michsi]

I'd like to take this moment to pat myself on the back for having predicted the exact order of events - Goku gives it a go with Omen but loses- Vegeta arrives and has his moment - Goku's gets his second turn this time with mastered UI. Riveting, I know

Concerning the cliffhanger - who else thinks that Beerus fears Goku renounced his allegiance with the Galatic Patrol because he doesn't want to honor the death row obligation and intends to let Moro go .

[WittyUsername]

I think Moro might actually be the big problem I’ve had with this arc. He’s such a boring character and virtually everything about him is a rehash of past villains.

[Xeogran]

Read the whole chapter now, truly a nice dish for Ultra Instinct fans.
Let's not cheat ourselves though, Goku will mess up next chapter and Moro will be in the lead again. Unavoidable

[LoganForkHands73]

Maybe it's just the endorphins talking but that might've been the best chapter in this arc so far. Again, cautiously optimistic, but everything started to truly click again for the first time in a long while, to the point where I can't really say anything bad about it. Excellent art, excellent pacing, a really nice moment between Goku and Jaco... Seriously, I loved that. Not a panel is wasted.

As expected, Merus's death didn't turn out to be treated as some "Krillin explosion = Super Saiyan" moment. It was handled with a totally different gravitas. Goku successfully reigns his emotions in, which is, after all, the whole point of Ultra Instinct. I couldn't picture him becoming a furious Super Saiyan-esque savage. Moro tries to evoke another familiar situation... Freeza's pathetic old "save me" gambit. But once again, Goku's flipping the script, or so it seems. No mercy.

Compared to its somewhat blase appearance in the manga version of the Tournament of Power, perfected Ultra Instinct truly looks and feels majestic this time around. Beerus's presence could have been a retread of Resurrection F. His treatment here, however, feels like the first time he's been written seriously in ages. His interest in the food is obviously cursory, he's really there to see his semi-pupil realise godhood, to see him stand on his own two feet. Whereas before Beerus killed the tension with his mere presence, his presence here could improve it -- if Goku somehow fails against Moro, he'll have to deal with having failed Beerus.

Nope, can't moan. 10/10.

[Dbzfan94]

Maybe it's just the endorphins talking but that might've been the best chapter in this arc so far. Again, cautiously optimistic, but everything started to truly click again for the first time in a long while, to the point where I can't really say anything bad about it. Excellent art, excellent pacing, a really nice moment between Goku and Jaco... Seriously, I loved that. Not a panel is wasted.

Somewhat disagree. Toyotaro's art looked pretty good this chapter (coming from someone who isnt really a fan of his art at all), but there were still many unneccesary panels imo

[DiscountDabi]

I’m honestly bothered by the the fact that Moro using his magic was surprising. Moro, the Magic Goat Man, Reduced to a Brute Monster Who uses his magic so rarely that its genuinely surprising when he uses it.

[Jack Bz]

Definitely a big fan of the choreography here. The chapter ended up being surprisingly visceral, certainly didn't expect Moro's arm to be burned off like that.

[The Undying]

I assume we're nearing the end, so I'll refrain from posting in-depth thoughts until... well, the end. This is largely because the pacing has been so thoroughly botched throughout the arc that it's hard to make heads or tails of major plot points, since a lot of them are just end-of-chapter cliffhangers now.

With my biggest gripe out of the way, here's some brief commentary in the meantime:

1. The action/art in this chapter absolutely slaps. Choreography's a banger. I don't know if the credit here mostly goes to Toyotaro or the editorial department, but there's so much more detail with body, facial, and background features from the last several chapters than in older volumes. The paneling is also totally readable and fun to follow. I like it. A+ work.

2. Goku's decision to take his role as a temporary Galactic Patrolman seriously only to then throw his symbol away after beating down Moro is a very Goku-like beat. However, if next month's cliffhanger boils down to Moro getting the upper hand over everyone for the 452nd time, the writing would be so far beyond repetitive that it'd border on self-parody at this point. I'd hope that, instead, expectations are subverted again. I still think it's only appropriate that Vegeta becomes involved in some capacity.

3. As I thought, Goku's "rage" in the previous chapter was a red herring that deliberately contrasts his first-time Super Saiyan transformation on Namek rather than just calling back to it, exactly as Merus described Ultra Instinct during their training. Good stuff. UI in general has been handled pretty well in this arc - tapping into it properly is mechanically consistent with previous uses, Goku's calm facial expression fits its tranquility (unlike the anime), and the fact that it serves as a pretty good counter to Moro's absorption makes it feel significant and relevant in a story that's contingent on figuring out that gimmick.

Chapter was enjoyable, despite my grievances with its progression speed. I think it's time for this arc to come to a close.

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 64:

- Goku: "Right now, I'm a Galactic Patrol agent just like you. So protecting the universe is my duty too!" A bit too Superman-esque for my liking, but for the context of the narrative, it works just fine as a "heroic speech".

- The appearance of Ultra Instinct was fantastic. The panelling, the art, and character reactions... 10/10

- Of course Moro immediately shit his pants when Goku approaches him with completed Ultra Instinct. Standard "Villains Breakdown" trope.

- Ultra Instinct Goku gave Moro the greatest gut punch I've ever seen in Dragon Ball.

- Great fight choreography throughout the chapter.

- It's a shame Moro has become such a one-note villain after it seem like he was becoming more of two dimensional character. Moro seems like less of a character and more a checklist. The classic cliche of Moro begging for help and pleading not to be killed punctuates that. Because of the lack of chemistry Moro has had with the main cast a character moment like that falls flat because it doesn't serves to expand of any dichotomy Moro may have with any major character he came to blows with. For example, Freeza begging Goku to save his life as his lays dying on the floors works wonderfully for the narrative of the Namek arc because it services and elevates and themes surround the battle between Goku and Freeza. And that only worked because Toriyama spent the time to provide narrative context as to what kind of dynamic Freeza and Goku with one another. I'm become more endeared to Freeza when he begging for help because it emphasises the dramatic irony of the character and adds an extra layer of depth to him. I can't say the same for Moro in this case because he's been barely developed as a character, let alone created any unique dynamic with the main cast.

- A good chunk of this arc has been pretty much built up around Goku attaining Complete Ultra Instinct, so I can't imagine this arc last until the end of the year. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if next months chapter is the finale. Creatively speaking this arc ran out of gas a long time ago, so I think it would best for the arc pacing if thing were to swiftly wrap up in the next chapter.

Overall thoughts... visually stunning but narratively shallow.

[Gt91]

That punch ...

What about the end of the chapter?

Spoiler:

I hope Goku doesn't let him live. I mean, let's finish this once for all.

[LegendBroly]

A lot of people won't agree but i feel like DBS will go down as the best Dragon Ball saga ever!

[DiscountDabi]

A lot of people won't agree but i feel like DBS will go down as the best Dragon Ball saga ever!

Agree to Disagree


I’d also like to bring something up. The Hand that Merus Cut off was his Left Hand, and the one that Moro got burned off was also his left hand. I have a bad feeling about this.

[LoganForkHands73]

The Galactic Patrol dialogue is a great touch because every symbol Goku wears means something important to him -- it represents who he's fighting for. In the Namek arc, he began wearing the symbol of his own name, representing that he's become his own master, and that he's fighting purely for himself and his friends. In this case, he feels he has an obligation to live up to the Patrol's principles of maintaining peace in the galaxy, the same principles that Merus held dear. Although it's certainly been a haphazard ride, I feel that this is what the arc has been really building up to. Goku, Vegeta and eventually all the Z-Warriors have been made temporary Galactic Patrolmen (hell, even I have the symbol lol) but only now does Goku have to bear that responsibility that that emblem brings. Be the hero, save the galaxy. Plus, all the cover art has emphasised Goku and Vegeta wearing full Galactic Patrol uniforms, it may just be a usual cover-only gag, but maybe that will be the real status quo change?...

Although they've barely interacted in the manga, I love the idea that Goku and Jaco have this funny little bond. Jaco is responsible for Goku's existence after all, and they have a number of casual chats throughout the anime. Jaco may be a small fry with a big ego, but I believe Goku sees something noble in him for always joining fights even when he knows he's outmatched, and Goku knows better than anyone that invaluable help can come from unexpected places (Yajirobe, Mr. Satan, etc). One reason I absolutely loathe the anime version of Resurrection F is that they totally castrated Jaco and made him a simpering sideline commentator, despite the fact that his contributions against the Freeza Force were some of the coolest in the whole movie!

I like the gestural ambiguity of him ripping off the shirt, though. He wants to fight as an Earthling, which seems to be a neat carryover from Gohan wanting to do the same in the Tournament of Power, but this is after he asks Jaco if Moro's been sentenced to death. Does it imply that he wants to finish him for his own pride as a martial artist, or is he reluctant to kill him now that he's started begging for his life? Without the Galactic Patrol emblem, he may no longer feel obliged to carry out the execution. Although that latter option is making more sense, I would rather that not be the case considering that this story really does just need to fucking end already, come on. But I've learned that it's better to just wait and see rather than jump to conclusions.

[Koitsukai]

Boy, what a stomp!

The little build up for the completion of the technique was nice and smooth, it looked awesome too, Toyo really outdid himself this month. I really can't believe people actually thought Goku was going to lose his mind and still achieve UI. SS UI they were calling it-
Moro was so fucking scared, it was nice to see him in that state, not even Merus had him shitting his pants like that.
UI is cool AF, reminded me of the Matrix when he was blocking him with one hand without even facing Moro.
ToP UI was pretty lackluster, mainly compared to the anime, but now it's getting the love it deserves, trashing Moro like Gohan did with Cell, even making him get hit by his own attack, although it seems to be going in that direction for the worse too, someway, somehow I feel Moro will get the upper hand next month. Or who knows? maybe they subvert the expectactions and Goku just obliterates Moro.
It also had some nice humour with Jaco and his reasons for becoming a Garakuchiku Patororu.

What I liked the most was UI's emergence, the head tilted back, and that woosh panel from afar when he was powering up reminded me of that cool Omen vs Kefla powering up scene from the anime.

I do wonder what the hell means to fight as an earthling. I'm guessing fighting Moro a little more instead of just killing him right away? cocky SS2 Gohan vibes that fuck everything up... but really, it would be such a lame move to keep dragging this fight for two more chapters. If they go down that route, it'll be like watching the endless Walking Dead. As of now for the arc to not end next month they must shit all over UI.

[Lionel]

I still hope that this arc proves to retain the message from the previous arc of teamwork and collaboration. Goku provided a cursory nod to the principle in this arc but it was more of a distinct piecemeal arrangement of how a character contributed through their own means. Don't get me wrong. Such consideration and effort is appreciated and fits well with the thematic context, but I would enjoy seeing the down and dirty fighting amongst teammates that we were made privy to a few chapters earlier -- that was one of the most entertaining chapters of the arc.

So much thought and insight has already been given as to what Goku meant when he made his declaration of fighting as a human while discarding the Galatic Patrol's banner. My two pennies worth is that Moro is already on the brink of death. Why would Goku be positioning himself as if another more intense fight were about to take place? I mean unless he's physically preparing himself through this ritual for an execution then it seems unnecessary. Is it just the sentiment of him discarding the Galactic Patrol's insignia -- and by extension his obligations to them -- that Goku removed his shirt?

Some reversal of fortune is almost certainly going to happen. I think we all know that. My question is could Vegeta and potentially Gohan and Piccolo still have a role to play in all this? Buu is almost assuredly out of the running and the cyborgs haven't been narratively reinforced this arc to seem like they'll have too great of a role.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I mentioned after Chapter 63 that Toyotarou would probably try to make this Chapter the 'defining moment' of Super, and that this is risky because stuff like that puts it all on the line and might not stick the landing. But I enjoyed this Chapter a lot.

Since this was always going to be a 'moment', it was never really going to move the plot on, and that's just fine (this time around), because what it gives is highly memorable. The art really lives up to the moment and conveys what the big deal with Ultra Instinct is (in a way that the Tournament of Power - perhaps deliberately - didn't), by depicting how Goku moves - the sharpness and intensity, particularly with other details like the globe-travelling shockwave, is really nice to see. I like some of the extra little touches about the fight, as well - like, for instance, how Moro doesn't know what the development actually is, but it instinctively scares him despite the fact that Goku isn't showing menace, and that he tries to do a bunch of different things (not just physical attacks), but that Goku's the only one whose esoteric powers actually do anything - like I said earlier, a nice turnabout - but also that Moro ends up harmed by the damage he does, in his own attack.

I'm intrigued by the ending, still, not just because of its connection to Goku's conversation with Merus in Chapter 63, but also to Moro's comment that Goku must think himself a God to lecture him - it seemed to give Goku pause, so I wonder if that dimension will be developed at all; I don't get a cocky or vengeful vibe here; Goku seems (appropriately, for the state he's in) calmly self-possessed and matter-of-fact. Sure, a twist of some sort is telegraphed here, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see what it is.

(After all the complaining that this would be a lazy SSj rip-off, where should Toyotarou go to get his apology? Oh, one's not coming because people are too busy complaining about what might happen in the next Chapter? Mmmkay).

Also, this chapter puts to rest the debate of "Is UI a power up or technique?"

Sure does - and it's a technique, it seems. Beerus and Whis comment on how Goku's fine-tuning his moves more and more; Goku mentions that the reason Moro can't hit him is because he's not thinking and his body is acting on its own; Beerus says the way he fights is perfectly done, and Godlike. There aren't any mentions of transforming or getting a power-up; all the references indicate that it's a question of Goku's quality of movement becoming so perfected that Moro can't hit him and his own hits now do tremendous damage.

And if all else fails and the Z screw this up, lets just hope Beerus finally says 'Alright I'm going in' and ends the fight before Moro pulls some magic trick out of his hat.

Frankly, Beerus can get in the bin no matter how this turns out; he could've done anything at any point in the last 2 months and couldn't be bothered, so he can just stand there and watch Goku do things his way.

The idea behind this arc was how magic and haxx overcome pure strength and how need more than just big arms to win a battle, it's shown with how Moro wipe the floor with Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker than them.

Toyotaro had to recton Moro's magic because writing more than two dudes punching each other seems to be beyond his abilities. I am still wondering why UI is even in this arc. Logically Moro could have solo'ed hard with his magic but because this is DBS we must have a PIS at every turn.

Firstly, what's more 'haxx' than Ultra Instinct? The whole technique is based around moving so perfectly that you never get hit and your strikes are absurdly powerful, like we saw in this Chapter.

Secondly, Toyotarou hasn't retconned anything. Moro used his magic throughout the fight with Omen Goku until Goku turned it into a slugfest, and Moro won. And he used (or else tried to use) his magic now, but Goku's too quick for him to actually pull it off.

I’d also like to bring something up. The Hand that Merus Cut off was his Left Hand, and the one that Moro got burned off was also his left hand. I have a bad feeling about this.

The hand has been mentioned in comments before, but I like this note in particular - good catch.

Hopefully it should open the way for Moro to provide a twist that evens things up some, but which allows the teamwork angle to provide the true resolution (as with Vegeta's move, as various people have mentioned). I'd be pretty satisfied if that formed the basic resolution of the arc.