"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:17 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:00 pm
Goku has never executed downed, begging opponents. He's fought to kill plenty of times, but the killing always came before the fight could totally run out in the opponent, in do-or-die moments. Kill-to-win rather than kill-after-winning.
It's also this. Goku certainly isn't above killing his enemies, especially under the most pressing circumstances, but now - like with Freeza - he's presented with a situation where he can either spare or kill a defeated opponent begging for his life.

I've seen a few people try to pull the usual "OOC/regression" card this month, and I think that's just entirely incorrect. Goku is practically a purveyor of inconvenient choices.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:27 pm

Also if Goku really felt that bad over Moro's death for some reason he can legit ask King Yemma to reincarnate him, that way Moro is no longer a threat and he can never be brought back the way he used to be. It's either that or erasing him, because Moro needs to be put down one way or the other, because the chance of him coming back by sparing is too great to ignore.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Jiren The Alpha
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:46 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:28 pm

Skar wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:13 pm
Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:45 pm
It's only a handful because Toyotaro traces the rest.
How often does Toyotaro trace panels? He openly admits to using the original manga as a reference but that's different than straight up tracing. I recall Toriyama was the one who chose a new lead animator for DBS: Broly so I don't think Toriyama is under any obligation to keep Toyotaro if Toriyama wasn't satisfied with his work overall.
Toriyama properly likes Toyataro personally because hes a fan of him or maybe he don't care about the manga that much. but having a fanfic DB writer write and draw Dragon Ball was a bad idea.

User avatar
batistabus
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1690
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:50 pm

If Goku's gonna give Moro a chance to go down fighting, I don't see any option other than letting him be healed. So there's that...

If Moro ever could be spared, he would need a way to satiate his hunger. His need to feed is his primary motivation. Even if they could just beat him up if he tried anything, Moro's life would just be suffering. I do NOT think they'll go down this route, but maybe the food of Earth could save the day again? Don't eat energy, eat this delicious food! Goku can understand the suffering of hunger, and it's possibly something he's been enduring since training with Merus.

Probably too wacky of an ending compared to the rest of he arc.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm

Moro can still regenerate, right? So Goku would just need to back off a little and Moro would just be up and running in no time. Or am I missing something?

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:58 pm

batistabus wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:50 pm
If Goku's gonna give Moro a chance to go down fighting, I don't see any option other than letting him be healed. So there's that...

If Moro ever could be spared, he would need a way to satiate his hunger. His need to feed is his primary motivation. Even if they could just beat him up if he tried anything, Moro's life would just be suffering. I do NOT think they'll go down this route, but maybe the food of Earth could save the day again? Don't eat energy, eat this delicious food! Goku can understand the suffering of hunger, and it's possibly something he's been enduring since training with Merus.

Probably too wacky of an ending compared to the rest of he arc.
If Moro gets spared they could try wishing his hunger away, but even then that's a huge risk to take knowing he could still do it for fun or whatever.

I mean, maybe if Moro was presented as a more sympatheitc villian who literally couldn't control his hunger and he got more violent when he didn't feed than I could understand them trying to change him as they'd just have to wish away the problem,(Let's be real here, if Moro outright stated he couldn't control himself prior to this fight Goku would say they could try wishing his hunger away or replacing it with something else ).but since he's not and given all the damage he's caused it wouldn't be worth it.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Gt91
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:11 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Gt91 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:59 pm

batistabus wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:50 pm
If Goku's gonna give Moro a chance to go down fighting, I don't see any option other than letting him be healed. So there's that...

If Moro ever could be spared, he would need a way to satiate his hunger. His need to feed is his primary motivation. Even if they could just beat him up if he tried anything, Moro's life would just be suffering. I do NOT think they'll go down this route, but maybe the food of Earth could save the day again? Don't eat energy, eat this delicious food! Goku can understand the suffering of hunger, and it's possibly something he's been enduring since training with Merus.

Probably too wacky of an ending compared to the rest of he arc.
He can become a new god of destruction and eat/destroy planets.
There was a theory on the internet about a new universe with moro and merus as GoD and angel. Who knows.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:03 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm
Moro can still regenerate, right? So Goku would just need to back off a little and Moro would just be up and running in no time. Or am I missing something?
I think Moro lost the regenerate power when Merus broke his crystals. At least I think. Without his regen, it'll make life a bit easier knowing he can't just heal himself.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7934
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:57 pm

Cipher wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:00 pm
Re: "Fight as an Earthling":

"I'm not going to finish this out as a member of the Galactic Patrol (even though I just called myself one), since that would require me to execute him, but find a way to end things as an individual Earthling/martial artist," would be my reading.

Re: Why the hesitation over Moro and not over [other character Goku has killed]: Let's say there's no "feeling killing the strong guy is a waste" sentiment going on here. Goku has never executed downed, begging opponents. He's fought to kill plenty of times, but the killing always came before the fight could totally run out in the opponent, in do-or-die moments. Kill-to-win rather than kill-after-winning. Admittedly, it's a convenience of the story that we've never seen him put in a similar situation since Namek, but that's also what makes it intriguing cropping up now. (Though it's not a complete retread of Goku's moment with Freeza, as his dynamic with Moro is quite different.)

My reading is that he simply wants to give Moro a chance to go down fighting, but we won't know until next month.
But Goku killed two foes who were running away. That’s almost as bad as killing a down foe. And the lesson of Resurrection ‘F’ was you have to kill some times, even if someone seems defeated. Goku also begged Gohan to kill Cell when Cell was crippled and had no chance at winning so he wouldn’t have the chance to do anything.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:05 pm

Also Goku tried to kill Black after he knocked him unconcious during a fight. And I know this happens (only?) in the anime, but I really don't care, when the anime adapts the Moro arc I'm sure they won't change the "Goku has second thoughts about Moro" plot point.
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Regular
Posts: 576
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:22 pm

I know Toyotaro always intended for Moro to be pure evil, and that's certainly how he's been consistently characterised so far... what if he does have potential for redemption? It's a possibility nobody's considered until this point and for good reason, we were told Moro was going to be a straightforward baddie and that's what we've been given. But what if it's all an elaborate ruse?

Looking back at Vegeta's conflicts throughout this arc, him being forced to confront his unsavoury past, plus Piccolo's shillerific praise to Goku for being able to change so many people for the better... maybe it's all leading up to this. I just can't see it though. Like Kikaza said, he simply hasn't been sympathetic in the slightest, unless they suddenly play up his insatiable appetite as a curse he's tragically unable to control which would be a bit jarring. There's the theory that he'll somehow be rehabilitated as a Destroyer but I can't see that either because they have to be able to show restraint about what they destroy, which Moro is apparently unable to do.

Goku could simply imprison him again, both as a punishment to live with the humiliation of defeat and to keep him on a leash to possibly aid them against future threats. Considering that Vegeta is now being revived by Dende, perhaps he'll use Spirit Fission to defuse 73 from Moro and keep them both around.
I am 999 years old. I don't give a f--

User avatar
Captain Awesome
I Live Here
Posts: 2618
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 am
Location: Australia, Planet Earth

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Captain Awesome » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:31 pm

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this one - but you really can see how heavily corrected this chapter is. There is some great art and great layout work which are two things I do not associate with Toyotaro.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:34 pm

I would say that Goku could do the exact opposite and just try to torture Moro before killing him ala Gohan vs. Cell. But assuming Toyotaro is setting up a redemption arc for Moro, that will be so obnoxious. Old Dragon Ball already set a pattern of redeeming antagonists, but Super is really doubling down on it... Zamasu would legit be the only Super antagonist who refused to listen to Goku or anyway wasn't forgiven (looking at Frieza).
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1094
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:52 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:28 pm
Toriyama properly likes Toyataro personally because hes a fan of him or maybe he don't care about the manga that much. but having a fanfic DB writer write and draw Dragon Ball was a bad idea.
Was Toriyama lying in interviews about his opinion of the manga and had Toyotaro help design some of the Gods of Destruction only because he's a fan? You can criticize the manga without trying to completely discredit Toyotaro as a writer or artist.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:08 pm

Sparing Moro is too risky. Whose to say he won't come back and drain the earth once recovered. Even if it was possible to slowly change Moro, it'd be too dangerous because realistically only Goku and Vegeta can hurt him in his current form and if he's brought back to 100% fully healed he could just bide his time and wait to strike. He could just pull a Frieza or pretend he surrenders before killing everyone.

Hell, Goku has killed people for less and Moro will always be a threat so long as he breathes. He is pure evil and there is nothing redeemable about him. If they wanted to make Moro a sympathetic villain they should've done so in the beginning, and seeing as Moro is meant to be pure evil it would make no sense to swap the narrative. Even then, Goku would realistically be like 'Moro wait, we can wish your hunger away, no biggie.'
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:19 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:08 pm
Sparing Moro is too risky. Whose to say he won't come back and drain the earth once recovered. Even if it was possible to slowly change Moro, it'd be too dangerous because realistically only Goku and Vegeta can hurt him in his current form and if he's brought back to 100% fully healed he could just bide his time and wait to strike. He could just pull a Frieza or pretend he surrenders before killing everyone.

Hell, Goku has killed people for less and Moro will always be a threat so long as he breathes. He is pure evil and there is nothing redeemable about him. If they wanted to make Moro a sympathetic villain they should've done so in the beginning, and seeing as Moro is meant to be pure evil it would make no sense to swap the narrative. Even then, Goku would realistically be like 'Moro wait, we can wish your hunger away, no biggie.'
See, with a few minor adjustments for the specific narrative, you could replace 'Moro' with 'Piccolo' here, and we'd just get something Goku's already done before in Dragon Ball.

In fact, given the similarities of character between Moro and Piccolo, and the fact that various story beats through the Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are reflected in this arc too, I think a lot of the things Goku's talking about and resolving to do seem to be echoes of these things he's already done.

User avatar
Jiren The Alpha
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 118
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:46 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:22 pm

Skar wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:52 pm
Jiren The Alpha wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:28 pm
Toriyama properly likes Toyataro personally because hes a fan of him or maybe he don't care about the manga that much. but having a fanfic DB writer write and draw Dragon Ball was a bad idea.
Was Toriyama lying in interviews about his opinion of the manga and had Toyotaro help design some of the Gods of Destruction only because he's a fan? You can criticize the manga without trying to completely discredit Toyotaro as a writer or artist.
What's good about Toyataro? he copies and traces poses, his dialogues are bad and his character portrayal are worst, i discredit Toyataro because an amature does not belong in the "pro league". Toriyama said nice thing about GT too but he dosen't follow it when he makes new stories and i don't thing he is going to follow the manga (look at broly movie) or the anime.

Toyotaro is that guy that got a job because he was the only one that show up to the interview.

User avatar
Femme Fatale Kikaza
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:48 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:19 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:08 pm
Sparing Moro is too risky. Whose to say he won't come back and drain the earth once recovered. Even if it was possible to slowly change Moro, it'd be too dangerous because realistically only Goku and Vegeta can hurt him in his current form and if he's brought back to 100% fully healed he could just bide his time and wait to strike. He could just pull a Frieza or pretend he surrenders before killing everyone.

Hell, Goku has killed people for less and Moro will always be a threat so long as he breathes. He is pure evil and there is nothing redeemable about him. If they wanted to make Moro a sympathetic villain they should've done so in the beginning, and seeing as Moro is meant to be pure evil it would make no sense to swap the narrative. Even then, Goku would realistically be like 'Moro wait, we can wish your hunger away, no biggie.'
See, with a few minor adjustments for the specific narrative, you could replace 'Moro' with 'Piccolo' here, and we'd just get something Goku's already done before in Dragon Ball.

In fact, given the similarities of character between Moro and Piccolo, and the fact that various story beats through the Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs are reflected in this arc too, I think a lot of the things Goku's talking about and resolving to do seem to be echoes of these things he's already done.
At least King Piccolo kept his destruction on Earth. He isn't a multiversal threat like Moro could be if allowed to live.

Moro will come back if he's spared and will drain the universe of life. Him changing is at wishful thinking and highly unlikely. Goku would need to keep Moro on a leash to prevent him from doing anything and even then, he could still think of betraying the Z fighters when he isn't looking. Too risky and ineffective, as whose to say Moro will fight by their side and not betray them when the opportunity arises.

Also I doubt everyone would be comfortable with Moro being on Earth.
The Dorkie and Ditzy member of the Trio! I'm as cute and as airheaded as you can get!

User avatar
Dylanrockin
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:10 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dylanrockin » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:56 pm
Moro can still regenerate, right? So Goku would just need to back off a little and Moro would just be up and running in no time. Or am I missing something?
All of his copy gems are broken, including his head-piece, which contained all of the abilities of individuals he copied. He is literally just 73Moro, but without the ability to copy.

Kinokima
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1547
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:38 pm

Piccolo isn’t the same as Moro

Goku did kill Demon King Piccolo. Piccolo Jr was spared but if Goku killed him Kami would have died. Not to mention Piccolo Jr never actually killed anyone unlike Moro who has killed souls for millennia.

Post Reply