"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:19 pm

Also Goku tried to kill Fused Zamasu with the hakai. Having trained with Beerus, Goku would know that hakai is a killing move that destroys the target completely, down to their soul. He had no problem destroying Zamasu and depriving him of an afterlife (not even the chance to reincarnate himself like Buu). So people should stop saying that Goku doesn't want to kill his enemies, because at this point in Super it's straight BS. This has absolutely nothing to do with "people not understanding Dragon Ball".
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:24 pm

Goku mastered UI. A good development. He baby shaked Moro.
However, not much story progression. Now it's Moro's turn to respond, since Goku is no longer Galactic Patrol. He will not kill him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:31 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:19 pm
Also Goku tried to kill Fused Zamasu with the hakai. Having trained with Beerus, Goku would know that hakai is a killing move that destroys the target completely, down to their soul. He had no problem destroying Zamasu and depriving him of an afterlife (not even the chance to reincarnate himself like Buu). So people should stop saying that Goku doesn't want to kill his enemies, because at this point in Super it's straight BS. This has absolutely nothing to do with "people not understanding Dragon Ball".
The question, to my mind, is this: why are you expecting Goku to treat Moro just like he treated Zamas? I don't see how it relates to the actual story beats we're seeing so far.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:34 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:31 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:19 pm
Also Goku tried to kill Fused Zamasu with the hakai. Having trained with Beerus, Goku would know that hakai is a killing move that destroys the target completely, down to their soul. He had no problem destroying Zamasu and depriving him of an afterlife (not even the chance to reincarnate himself like Buu). So people should stop saying that Goku doesn't want to kill his enemies, because at this point in Super it's straight BS. This has absolutely nothing to do with "people not understanding Dragon Ball".
The question, to my mind, is this: why are you expecting Goku to treat Moro just like he treated Zamas? I don't see how it relates to the actual story beats we're seeing so far.
I am expecting Goku to treat Moro like Zamasu because, like Zamasu, Moro is a potential multiversal threat and, unlike Zamasu, Moro has no redeeming quality whatsoever, so he should treat him equal or worse than how he treated Zamasu. Otherwise Goku is just a complete hypocrite.

I am also tired of people in here acting like anyone who disagrees with the last chapter's writing "doesnt' understand Dragon Ball or Goku's character", because I have provided several examples from the manga that show how Goku has no problem killing somoene dangerous.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:54 pm

Yeah, I mean Goku doesn't like killing and tries to avoid it until it becomes obvious the guy he's fighting will basically be a nuisance as long as they live. Goku has killed people for less and honestly, Moro being allowed to live past this arc would bite them in the ass because he'll turn Universe 7 until his playground of death. Moro is a multiversal threat and if he's allowed to flee or come back, he will kill everyone in his way.

Moro is more akin to a parasite that needs to be eradicated than a warrior, he literally sucks the life out of planets for nourishment and if he isn't killed everyone will die.If Moro is not killed by the end of the arc, who knows what'll happen.

SupremeKai25 has a point and is correct, Moro being left alive would get everyone killed and he's too big of a threat to allow to exist. Moro is literally pure evil, he won't change and he WILL kill everyone given the chance, he legit tried to devour the earth before MUI Goku stopped him, do you really think someone like this could change? Moro's shown to not care whatsoever about anyone other than himself and will kill everything in the universe if it means having his way. Moro cannot be imprisoned either, as he'll likely try this again, he could just break out his henchmen and power them up to the point where fighting them would be impossible for earth's fighters and kill everyone.

He needs to die, because otherwise there's always a risk of him coming back.

Even if Goku fucks this up and doesn't kill him, let's hope someone else does, because if Moro lives, say buh-bye to Earth, Yardrat and the few other planets Moro hasn't devoured by now by the end of the arc.

I get Goku doesn't killing in cold blood but COME ON, look at the damage Moro has caused, the all the people he's indirectly(Merus) and directly(literally everyone else) killed. Is it worth it? The danger? The problems he could cause? The multiverse being at risk? Is it worth it? Hell, Goku legit told Vegeta ,"Fucking kill Black, Vegeta! I don't give a damn about fighting him, do it!' and he looked ready to kill Black in the anime while he was down after he bragged about killing Chi Chi and Goten. Goku has told people to kill when necessary and tried to do so, he just failed because he hesitated and Black was able to respond and attack him.

Though, I have the feeling Moro is going to take a few people with him to the grave before he is defeated...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:34 pm
I am expecting Goku to treat Moro like Zamasu because, like Zamasu, Moro is a potential multiversal threat and, unlike Zamasu, Moro has even fewer redeeming qualities, so he should treat him equal or worse than how he treated Zamasu.
I get you're a big fan of Zamas, but he frankly has no redeeming qualities either. He resolved to erase all intelligent life in all Universes (and parallel realities) that wasn't himself, both Gods and Mortals. Anyone acting like he was somehow noble or whatever is taking a weirdly contrarian position.

More to the point, I guess my question is really more a matter of why Goku should regard Zamas as relevant to this scenario at all - why should he have him in mind while he's dealing with Moro? What of particular relevance does that arc have to contribute to the question of whether Goku might spare Moro or not? That Moro and Zamas were both huge threats isn't enough - every threat in Dragon Ball is greater than the last. What's the real connection here? I'm afraid I don't see it.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:34 pm
I am also tired of people in here acting like anyone who disagrees with the last chapter's writing "doesnt' understand Dragon Ball or Goku's character", because I have provided several examples from the manga that show how Goku has no problem killing somoene dangerous.
But Goku also has no problem sparing, and even actively helping, people who are extremely dangerous - in fact, more dangerous to him at the time than Moro is right now (such as Piccolo, whom Moro is most like as an actual character). He could pursue either outcome, theoretically. So it comes down to what the context clues of the Chapter itself, and the story arc so far, are leading us towards concluding - which seem (unless Goku deliberately acts differently to what he's indicating) to point to him sparing Moro, if not more.

The point is that arguing Goku should straightforwardly go for the kill is unlikely to happen, and it is perfectly consistent with Goku's character that it shouldn't happen. Is this a huge problem?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:54 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:34 pm
I am expecting Goku to treat Moro like Zamasu because, like Zamasu, Moro is a potential multiversal threat and, unlike Zamasu, Moro has even fewer redeeming qualities, so he should treat him equal or worse than how he treated Zamasu.
I get you're a big fan of Zamas, but he frankly has no redeeming qualities either. He resolved to erase all intelligent life in all Universes (and parallel realities) that wasn't himself, both Gods and Mortals. Anyone acting like he was somehow noble or whatever is taking a weirdly contrarian position.

More to the point, I guess my question is really more a matter of why Goku should regard Zamas as relevant to this scenario at all - why should he have him in mind while he's dealing with Moro? What of particular relevance does that arc have to contribute to the question of whether Goku might spare Moro or not? That Moro and Zamas were both huge threats isn't enough - every threat in Dragon Ball is greater than the last. What's the real connection here? I'm afraid I don't see it.
Me being a fan of Zamasu has nothing to do with this, I would advocate for Goku killing Moro even if I didn't care about Zamasu. I also mentioned Frieza in RoF as an example of a beaten villain that Goku didn't hesitate to destroy, all I'm doing is giving you examples from modern Super that show Goku isn't that merciful.

As for me saying Zamasu was more redeemable than Moro, that's pretty much a fact. Zamasu's actions might have been horrible but his intentions were noble and Toriyama even said he was originally pure and good. Meanwhile Moro is completely evil and has shown no redeeming quality whatsoever (while at least Zamasu originally was not bent on genocide), but that is off-topic and I brought it up as a side note as to why I don't want to see Moro redeemed in any way.
The point is that arguing Goku should straightforwardly go for the kill is unlikely to happen, and it is perfectly consistent with Goku's character that it shouldn't happen. Is this a huge problem?
It is not consistent with Goku's character in Super, you can't ignore him trying to destroy both Frieza and Zamasu, one of which was already beaten up and defeated (and Toriyama wrote that). I'm not saying it is a huge problem, I won't even care about Moro once the arc is over, but since we are discussing the current Moro arc then I will point it out as a problem in the writing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:31 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:33 pm
ChronoTwigger wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:27 am
That's the fact you can't ignore: Dragonball and mostly Goku doesn't do the most rational thing, but the most "dragonballish" thing.
100% nailed it.

Frankly, this litany of unfounded criticism is nothing new. "Why isn't Beerus stepping in?", "Hurry up and execute him, Goku!", etc.

Dragon Ball's main cast is mostly comprised of selfish, often hypocritical shitheads who frequently make terrible decisions, and Dragon Ball is at its best when it's using those choices to facilitate the story. That's what makes DB unique, fun, and interesting. Having the protags eliminate bad guys in the most practical, straightforward manner possible isn't.

If I wanted a generic superhero manga, I'd read My Hero Academia.
I agree, but more impressive is that it's rare for the characters' decisions to not make any sense whatsoever because we know their framework of priorities. We may not always agree with them, and yeah, they can often be downright idiotic by any metric, but we always at least understand why the characters make the decisions they do.

It's like, some people hate that Goku and the others decided against Bulma's idea of tracking Gero down before he could complete the Androids but... come on, would anyone actually want to see that story? You can hate Goku all you want but the man knows how his own story in the Dragon Ball universe works -- it's all about fighting and growing stronger.

Getting into the discussion about Goku's kills against weaker/defeated foes, most of them are done in the heat of the moment. Besides having his own legitimate, personal reasons for wanting Tambourine's green head on a plate (murdering Krillin, Kinto'un, untold other martial artists, humiliating Goku earlier in the arc), Goku kills him with a non-stop attack frenzy. Tambourine doesn't even have a chance to properly surrender in the same way as Moro here. Against the Red Ribbon Army, Goku was just on an unstoppable warpath -- in all honesty, it's one of his less savoury moments. Against Yakon, he let the dumb brute gorge himself on light until he exploded -- Yakon could've just stopped eating but who is Goku to deny a hungry person a meal? :twisted: Against Kid Buu, even in that fate-of-the-universe scenario, Goku was still conflicted about having to put down such an amazin' opponent.

Finally, against Freeza, he had to correct his own mistake because he knew for a fact what Freeza was about to do. Considering that this arc has many similar beats to Resurrection F, it's all a matter of whether or not Goku will remember the lesson he totally admitted to not learning learned there or if he'll fall back on his pride as a martial artist.

Also, him egging on other characters to kill enemies is different from being in the hotseat himself.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:38 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm
As for me saying Zamasu was more redeemable than Moro, that's pretty much a fact.
Frankly, that's a tough argument to make when Gowas quite literally gave him a chance to redeem himself and got gutted for his trouble. Zamas's problem is that he's false in all respects - a false disciple, a false Kaioshin, a false Goku and finally someone who's false to the ideals he claimed to espouse. He's every bit as bad as Moro, if not worse. But I agree with you that he's not really relevant to the issue (which is what I said in the first place, as it happens).

I have no interest whatsoever in defending Moro's moral probity (he lacks the depth of character to justify it), but Moro does what he does simply to eat (he enjoys his food, has gorged himself beyond necessity, and is completely callous about the whole thing - but then, Dragon Ball doesn't have any sympathetic villains anyway), and his scope has "only" been stated to be Galactic, not across all of conceivable existence. I have no argument with the assertion that Moro's a shallow, incorrigible, evil scumbag...but then again, when Goku spared him, gave him a Senzu bean and told him to come back stronger, so was Piccolo. Which has been my point all along.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm
I brought it up as a side note as to why I don't want to see Moro redeemed in any way.
With respect, I might suggest on the basis of what you've said so far that what you want may be the real point at issue here, rather than any argument over what is or isn't true to Goku's character. But I'm afraid I can't address that, as it's a question of your personal taste.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm
It is not consistent with Goku's character in Super, you can't ignore him trying to destroy both Frieza and Zamasu, one of which was already beaten up and defeated.
I haven't ignored anything; Goku has destroyed and spared many characters as he has seen fit across the course of Dragon Ball as a whole, for his own reasons. As far as I'm concerned, Goku doesn't have a 'Dragon Ball' character and a 'Dragon Ball Super' character; I know a lot of people like to act like he does, particularly for argumentative purposes, but I regard it as a pose, and a false dichotomy, and I'm inclined to give it short shrift.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm
Or let me ask you this, did you also complain when Goku literally went for the kill against Golden Frieza in the RoF movie (which was written by Toriyama)?
Your question really doesn't relate to me, for the simple reason that I haven't complained about a single thing so far. The "complaints", as you put it, are coming from others - mostly people who think it would be in any way absurd for Goku to spare Moro at this stage. I simply think it wouldn't be, that it has ample precedent in how Goku has treated others throughout Dragon Ball, and that the story seems to be tending this way. And that I think it's fine. That's all.

I've accepted that Goku can feel at liberty to kill people when he sees the need; I've never said otherwise, in fact. Usually those instances (such as Freeza in Revival of F) have contextually relevant reasons, but my argument has been that it's also perfectly in-character for Goku to spare people who are a real danger to him, for reasons that ordinary people would consider mystifying or irresponsible, and that the pattern we observed in the most recent Chapter are showing a greater likelihood that he will do so - hence why I drew the direct comparison between Moro now and Piccolo then, as (to me) the most relevant comparison.

Is that a very contentious position to take, in your view? I can't see it, myself.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:08 pm

I don't really have anything to say. There wasn't anything to this chapter that I found particularly compelling. I also don't really wanna post just to shit on it.

All I'll say is this is the Goku Toriyama has said he hated in the movie portrayals. The Goku who seems like a really good guy; the Goku who is Superman. He needs to stop talking about friendship and protecting the Earth, and all that stuff. That's the kind of thing Goku derivatives like Naruto, Luffy and the like do. Goku proper is kind of a selfish, absent-minded, irresponsible asshole. Toyotaro knows this, so I'm just gonna assume he fell into writing Goku this way because it's the default outside of Toriyama stories.

It's fine. He'll bounce back.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:38 pm

This arc is never ending without much story progression it feels
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:51 pm

I would have loved more Casual Goku Banter while Fighting in Ultra Instinct. Something like him smiling and Moro asks him what he’s smiling at and Goku just says something like “I’m just thinking about getting home and eating a big meal with my wife and Son. I haven’t had a decent meal in Months.”

That just sounds so Goku.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:47 pm

TKA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:08 pm
All I'll say is this is the Goku Toriyama has said he hated in the movie portrayals. The Goku who seems like a really good guy; the Goku who is Superman. He needs to stop talking about friendship and protecting the Earth, and all that stuff. That's the kind of thing Goku derivatives like Naruto, Luffy and the like do. Goku proper is kind of a selfish, absent-minded, irresponsible asshole. Toyotaro knows this, so I'm just gonna assume he fell into writing Goku this way because it's the default outside of Toriyama stories.
I completely agree, but I'm okay with it in this specific scenario. It seems he's only behaving this way temporarily as to acknowledge Merus' resolve as a Galactic Patrolman. Merus has demonstrated respect for Goku's way of doing things, so Goku honors Merus' sacrifice in this moment. I suspect "fighting as an earthling from here on" means acting like Toriyama's Goku. If things don't pan out that way, maybe I'm wrong.
DiscountDabi wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:51 pm
I would have loved more Casual Goku Banter while Fighting in Ultra Instinct. Something like him smiling and Moro asks him what he’s smiling at and Goku just says something like “I’m just thinking about getting home and eating a big meal with my wife and Son. I haven’t had a decent meal in Months.”

That just sounds so Goku.
I like that. Something along those lines would have the most impact if Goku somehow 100% knew he'd win, if he knew he'd permanently mastered MnG, if this was the end of the arc, and if it was the end of the series. At this point, none of that seems guaranteed (or likely, in my opinion).

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:56 am

TKA wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:08 pm
I don't really have anything to say. There wasn't anything to this chapter that I found particularly compelling. I also don't really wanna post just to shit on it.

All I'll say is this is the Goku Toriyama has said he hated in the movie portrayals. The Goku who seems like a really good guy; the Goku who is Superman. He needs to stop talking about friendship and protecting the Earth, and all that stuff. That's the kind of thing Goku derivatives like Naruto, Luffy and the like do. Goku proper is kind of a selfish, absent-minded, irresponsible asshole. Toyotaro knows this, so I'm just gonna assume he fell into writing Goku this way because it's the default outside of Toriyama stories.

It's fine. He'll bounce back.
For me, it survives on its being couched in Goku’s deciding to live up to being a member of the Galactic Patrol—a statement with some sentimentality behind it due to his connection to Merus, but delivered in a typically goofy, Goku-esque way: “I’m in the uniform (which I was roped into at the beginning of the arc and have never respected), so I guess I have to do my job.” (To the tune of, more sincerely, Merus had faith in me, so I’ll try seeing things his way for a bit out of respect.)

But it’s all undone within the length of the chapter itself as he decides to go rogue on the order to execute Moro, which is also typically Goku.

Re: Messages higher up: I keep seeing talk of Goku not sparing a downed Zamasu, but ... when was this? He’s perfectly happy to congratulate Trunks on stabbing Black when he’s down, but Goku’s only attempts to kill Zamasu come when the latter is still up and fighting. In both versions, iirc.

For Freeza in “F,” it’s another do-or-die moment, as he knows for a fact the latter is about to imminently destroy Earth unless he goes in for the kill. Whis tries to impart a lesson on not sparing dangerous opponents, but it’s a goofy Toriyama outing, and Vegeta and Goku aren’t taking anything from it. Goku doesn’t suddenly become Future Trunks.

All of this is moot as I’m fairly certain Goku doesn’t intend to “spare” Moro anyway—merely give him a chance to go down fighting—though we’ll find out next month.

Re: Tambourine (and Baby, why not): Running away is still a far cry from being down and begging. Had Moro tried to escape, I feel like the same Goku who wants to give him a chance to go down fighting would try to cut him off with killing intent. But having to simply execute someone who’s already down and groveling has never been Goku’s style. He’ll at least let Moro back up on his feet.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:40 am

The chapter title says it all: "Son Goku, Galactic Patrol Officer".

That, to me, demonstrates that he isn't like Superman, not that he is. When Goku mentions protecting the universe, he makes it abundantly clear it's in the context of his role as a temporary Galactic Patrol agent, which he's taking more seriously at the moment to honor Merus. When Jaco then indicates that it's time for Moro to be executed, he rips the logo off and says "Nah, I'm doing this my way".

I guess it's impossible to tell what kind of beat the next chapter will ultimately go with, but it doesn't seem like he's resigned to permanently adopt their ideals - hence all these complaints ITT about Goku presumably getting ready to... act like Goku.

This is one of those arcs that would clearly benefit more from a full readthrough rather than a chapter-by-chapter basis.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:48 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:38 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:05 pm
As for me saying Zamasu was more redeemable than Moro, that's pretty much a fact.
Frankly, that's a tough argument to make when Gowas quite literally gave him a chance to redeem himself and got gutted for his trouble. Zamas's problem is that he's false in all respects - a false disciple, a false Kaioshin, a false Goku and finally someone who's false to the ideals he claimed to espouse. He's every bit as bad as Moro, if not worse. But I agree with you that he's not really relevant to the issue (which is what I said in the first place, as it happens).
At least Zamasu has ideals and genuinely believes he's making the cosmos a better place, in my mind that will always be more admirable than someone like Moro who only wants to devour worlds. The comparison with Zamasu (and Frieza) is natural because they are the only other true villains from Super, both of whom Goku tried to kill (Gogeta also tried to kill Broly, but I won't take that into consideration since he wasn't 100% Goku).

What is off-topic is me saying that I don't want Moro redeemed because Goku never cared about talking things out with Zamasu, that is personal bias and I will admit it (I mean Goku is okay with letting Moro go but never bothered to understand Zamasu and see if he could be reasoned with?).
and his scope has "only" been stated to be Galactic, not across all of conceivable existence.
He can never sate his hunger, he'd go from galaxy to galaxy harvesting people until nothing is left of the universe. Then he'd move onto other universes. He is also a threat to the Gods and directly fought them in the past.
With respect, I might suggest on the basis of what you've said so far that what you want may be the real point at issue here, rather than any argument over what is or isn't true to Goku's character. But I'm afraid I can't address that, as it's a question of your personal taste.
I mean it's both. I personally don't want Moro redeemed, but that's my bias and I'm willing to rest my case in that regard, but I also think that it's stupid for Goku to spare Moro, especially based on his previous behavior in Super. It would be stupid from an in-universe persective for obvious reasons and it would be stupid from a writing perspective too because it would be a case of character regression.

You keep bringing up Piccolo from OG Dragon Ball, but you'd think Goku would have progressed as a character since then, No? Or do you expect Goku to remain the same forever? In RoF he witnessed first-hand what happens when you play with your food. If it wasn't for Whis' divine powers then the Earth and its people would be gone. You would think Goku learned the lesson and wouldn't mess around with Moro, and it seemed he learned that lesson because in the Future Trunks arc he wasn't playing around with Black (so much so that he told Vegeta to kill him quickly, and then tried to erase Zamasu from existence -- he didn't even want him reincarnated ala Buu).
Is that a very contentious position to take, in your view? I can't see it, myself.
Not really, and I don't have a problem with you. My problem is with some people in this thread who said things like "oh Goku never kills his opponent, if you think otherwise you don't understand Dragon Ball" when there are very recent examples from Dragon Ball that prove otherwise. That is contentious.

Regardless I would agree to disagree. I have taken your points into consideration and at this moment it's just best to wait for the next chapter.
Cipher wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:56 am
Re: Messages higher up: I keep seeing talk of Goku not sparing a downed Zamasu, but ... when was this? He’s perfectly happy to congratulate Trunks on stabbing Black when he’s down, but Goku’s only attempts to kill Zamasu come when the latter is still up and fighting. In both versions, iirc.
In the anime he straight up tries to kill Black when he is (seemingly) unconcious:
At this point Goku sees an unconcious Black, he thinks he is beaten and defeated, and yet he doesn't try to spare him. Instead he just goes straight for the kill, because he's just very angry after Black gloated about killing his family. He doesn't even want to torture him like he did with Frieza on Namek, he just tries to deal the final blow.

I didn't want to bring up this example because it's in the anime, so maybe Toyotaro wouldn't have Goku act that way vs. Black. But it's still a problem, because when the arc gets adapted I'm 99% sure they wouldn't change the "Goku doesn't downright kill Moro when he can" plot point (because it's major), and that would be very inconsistent with Goku's previous characterization.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:01 am

Please don’t mix up the anime with the manga, or we might as well begin to use examples from the old Toei movies too and that would do no good to the discussion.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:02 am

The Undying wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:40 am
The chapter title says it all: "Son Goku, Galactic Patrol Officer".

That, to me, demonstrates that he isn't like Superman, not that he is. When Goku mentions protecting the universe, he makes it abundantly clear it's in the context of his role as a temporary Galactic Patrol agent, which he's taking more seriously at the moment to honor Merus.
Yes, this is the plot-level justification for it.

However, it doesn't change the fact that the end point is still "righteous hero Goku who gives speeches about protecting people and friendship" and all that junk. It's very much a case of just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. You can come up with any number of plots to justify Goku acting like Superman, and in a logical manner, but should you? Is doing that worth diverging away from what makes Goku stand out among the many, many inferior clones of him across the various anime and manga made after Dragonball?

Personally I don't think so. I can do without friendship speeches and that kinda thing in Dragonball, since it's a series that has consistently mocked and made fun of those kinds of genre platitudes.

I'm not really invested enough to care about what's going on in the story at the moment to comment further though lol.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:06 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:48 am
Regardless I would agree to disagree. I have taken your points into consideration and at this moment it's just best to wait for the next chapter.
That's fair enough - thanks for taking the time. However, I would like to come back on just one particular point that you made:
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:48 am
it would be stupid from a writing perspective too because it would be a case of character regression.

You keep bringing up Piccolo from OG Dragon Ball, but you'd think Goku would have progressed as a character since then, No? Or do you expect Goku to remain the same forever?
I don't think I'm being idiosyncratic when I say that character work, in my opinion, isn't simply a matter of 'input-output'; it's true that characters (and people generally) learn and grow as they gain more knowledge and interact with more stimuli, but they also stay 'true to themselves' in important ways, and this is often quite inflexible, sometimes irrationally so.

It really comes down to the fact that I don't believe that Freeza and Zamas are the closest analogies to Moro in Goku's own experience, and so I question whether he's characteristically likely to react to Moro in the same way he did to them (even if he 'comes a cropper' as a result); I'd consider that he's much more likely to act an a way that is at least similar to a situation which is similar. The situation I consider most evocative of this one is the situation with Piccolo, which is why I keep bringing it up. While I don't expect Goku to do exactly the same stuff for Moro that he did for Piccolo (not least because there isn't the 'fated rivalry' relationship between them); I think it's perfectly in keeping for his attitudes and behaviour to track in a general manner in this way, given what I've already said. Goku occasionally being adamant that ending things quickly is the right thing to do (and seeing instances that reinforce that lesson) doesn't make it regressive to act and respond in a more straightforwardly 'typical' manner (or at least a manner more in keeping with instances more similar to this one) on other occasions.

As almost everyone has said so far (but few are willing to take to heart), we don't know precisely how Goku will respond in Chapter 65. But even if Goku went totally "off the deep end", gave Moro a Senzu to save him, let him grab his neck to gain Ultra Instinct, fought him to a standstill, and then let him go on his way, I would still regard that as perfectly consistent conduct and character work, because they're all things that broadly track with how Goku (re)acted in the arc that was most similar to this one.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:39 am

TKA wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:02 am
I can do without friendship speeches and that kinda thing in Dragonball, since it's a series that has consistently mocked and made fun of those kinds of genre platitudes.
Ehh, I don't think it's being played that straight here.

Really, I'd say the chapter already approaches it in a subversive, prodding manner: Goku pays homage to Merus's legacy by embodying the uniform and playing hero, but then, just when Moro's down for the count, he decides he can't take it seriously. We can see which circumstances would prompt him to entertain the idea, and - much like forcing an American kid to eat his veggies - he can't do it for more than 5 minutes.

I think it's totally worth exploring genre staples if it means pointing out what makes Dragon Ball so distinct from them. DB has done that kind of thing before.

But, again, it's hard to discuss all this stuff without the full context of whatever Goku's about to do after "quitting" the Galactic Patrol.
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