"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Ziegander
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 pm

I've begun a full-scale re-write of the Tournament of Power! Here's Ch. 1, here's Ch.
2
, and here's Ch.
3!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 pm
Thats not the real Goku, thats TFS Goku.

https://youtu.be/675BKQjv42M?t=283

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:35 pm

They need to end this arc, because if Moro sticks around for four more chapters its gonna be annoying...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:57 pm

For some reason, I was hoping Beerus would acknowledge Moro in some way. He just basically ignored the guy entirely.

Goku giving Moro a senzu is stupid, but it's totally a Goku move.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:43 pm

YamiGoku wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 pm
Thats not the real Goku, thats TFS Goku.

https://youtu.be/675BKQjv42M?t=283
That's where we are now, apparently. Self-parody? Please tell me that translation is incorrect.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:47 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:23 pm
It was the same with the TOP with Goku reminding Zeno about the tournament even though Beerus warned him Zeno was dangerous. Yes it worked out, in fact it worked out for the best in the end. But I feel that’s my issue with Super. Instead of having Goku learn something, things just always work out for the best because he is the main character. And I guess I don’t really like that type of storytelling.
I've also noticed this trend in Super. It's like Goku is an obstacle to be written around instead of addressing his bad decisions head-on. The plot constantly excuses his actions to resolve itself and nothing ever seems to be learned from it. Honestly, Super would be a more enjoyable and entertaining watch/read if it actually did take the time to address these character flaws and deal with them.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:28 pm
The reason people are upset is because they're trying to drag out an already dragged out fight. The problem is we've had so many fake outs already, yet we may have another one ? that was never going to go well. You can get away with one fake out, but 4 ? now maybe 5 ?
Yeah, I'm getting arc fatigue too at this point. Really, it's just fight fatigue from this single continuous fight. I've recently defended Toyotaro on several threads, but I'm not a big fan of recent developments. I hope this is the end, otherwise I hope something of interest comes from this and its not just more back and forth between Moro, Goku, and Vegeta.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:39 am

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:43 pm
YamiGoku wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:10 pm
Thats not the real Goku, thats TFS Goku.

https://youtu.be/675BKQjv42M?t=283
That's where we are now, apparently. Self-parody? Please tell me that translation is incorrect.
its from dragon ball hype, he ain't wrong but it backs my theory, Goku is baiting him and the scene is just a dumb throwback toyotaro added because he liked the scene from the original.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Totamo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 am

but i do agree with one criticism about this arc: they have borrowed way too much from the original that it feels like a toei movie.

which begs the question: what happens when they run out of material to use because they have completely used up everything.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:06 am

I've seen some say that this is no different from him helping Piccolo, so why is it a big deal (thankfully it's not that many) ? Here's the 2 major differences between them(although god knows why this isn't obvious):

1- Piccolo didn't hurt anyone. He may have talked a lot about doing so, but he never hurt a soul, and went as far as fighting according to tournament rules. When Piccolo was healed, he left everyone alone for half a decade. Moro on the other hand ? tens of millions dead with zero redeeming qualities.

2- If Piccolo died, so would Kami. Let's say that Piccolo was even worse than Moro, they still couldn't kill him because it would kill an innocent person as well. What innocent person would die if Moro was killed ?
YamiGoku wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 pm
Thats not the real Goku, thats TFS Goku.
I cannot believe something like this found its way into official material.
Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:43 pm
Self-parody? Please tell me that translation is incorrect.
I can't believe this happened 2 days after I called modern DB a self parody of the original.
Totamo wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 am
What happens when they run out of material to use because they have completely used up everything.
They'll just reuse everything again. They've already brought Freeza back twice, and had 2 Brolys back to back. We'll probably get another Future Trunks arc sooner or later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:39 am

Toyotaro is just not a great writer at all.

Outside of the forced spirit fission and Moro's abilities, everything else is reused material from previous arcs.

Moro put a hand through Goku not long ago, nearly killed his friends and his son, slaughtered the entire Namekian race, and countless others; this guy has no good qualities.

It arguably costed Goku his life when he gave Cell a sensu bean back in the Cell games. It was heavily criticized and still is to this day. Obviously its asking too much for Goku to learn from that experience.

Just stupid. They keep dragging this arc too. Just trash
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:42 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:06 am
I've seen some say that this is no different from him helping Piccolo, so why is it a big deal (thankfully it's not that many) ? Here's the 2 major differences between them(although god knows why this isn't obvious):

1- Piccolo didn't hurt anyone. He may have talked a lot about doing so, but he never hurt a soul, and went as far as fighting according to tournament rules. When Piccolo was healed, he left everyone alone for half a decade. Moro on the other hand ? tens of millions dead with zero redeeming qualities.

2- If Piccolo died, so would Kami. Let's say that Piccolo was even worse than Moro, they still couldn't kill him because it would kill an innocent person as well. What innocent person would die if Moro was killed ?
Another big difference is that unlike with Piccolo, Vegeta, or any of the original series villains Goku has tried to spare, Moro isn't his only rival. You could understand why he'd want to preserve those guys when at the time they were the greatest challenges he'd ever faced and there was no guarantee he'd find someone better- he flat out said that with Vegeta.

Whereas now he has unsettled scores with Beerus, Broly and Jiren, Vegeta's just gotten a major power boost and Freeza's still kicking around as well. He doesn't need to risk everything to try and redeem Moro, someone he has no real chemistry with and who got all his power by stealing it from others.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:09 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:42 am
Now he has unsettled scores with Beerus, Broly and Jiren, Vegeta's just gotten a major power boost and Freeza's still kicking around as well. He doesn't need to risk everything to try and redeem Moro, someone he has no real chemistry with and who got all his power by stealing it from others.
He never fought Hit at his full power as well due to tournament rules against killing. No matter how you look at it, there's absolutely no reason to spare, much less believe Moro will change. "Promise me you'll never do it again", seriously ? Has Toyotaro been watching too much DBZA ? I cannot believe they took who was my favorite character in the original manga and somehow made him my least favorite in all of anime/manga. Just when I thought Goku couldn't be written any worse, they somehow managed to surprise me. Then again, he's now semi-friends with Freeza so this shouldn't have been that surprising.

What I loved in the original manga was Goku's slow evolution from being someone no one took seriously to gradually becoming the group's leader through his many achievements. You look at him now and wonder how on earth anyone can take him seriously, much less follow him as a leader. All he's done since this revival started was fail, most of the time intentionally. I think someone saw the positive reception to him losing against Beerus and decided to have that be the default outcome of all his fights, just one failure after another. The reason it worked was because it wasn't the norm, now it's just tiring and predictable.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:34 am

Man, I was mentioning it jokingly before that happened... but of course Moro gets Senzu Bean!!!
Come on, really! It's like Piccolo all over again (Or Cell...).

But seriously, I don't know, what will be better, if Moro got some last minute asspull or desperate last resort, or this...
I was looking forward to the fight finally ending, really! :(
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:40 am

Block88 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:04 pm
Man folks really luv to defend bad writing huh
Goku doing this shit is utterly stupid no matter what happens folks pretending goku never want to finish off the villain is ignoring how he wanted cell dead when gohan was beating him or when he killed yakon or if he had to kill Dabura to turn krillin and Piccolo back.

Ya know what’s even worse Goku previously told vegeta to kill Black already in the manga and latter tried to prevent Zamasu and Black from fusing
Yet here he is pulling the same dumb ass as if it didn’t come back to bite him previously
Yeah, he also tried to destroy Fused Zamasu with hakai. If he succeeded, Zamasu would have straight up been erased from existence, he wouldn't have even been allowed to go to the Otherworld.

What's extremely frustrating is that Goku thinks Moro is redeemable while Zamasu is not. Like, what the hell! Zamasu is the deepest Dragon Ball villain by far and he's the only one Goku never tries to redeem? This writing must be a joke.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:45 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:09 am
Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:42 am
Now he has unsettled scores with Beerus, Broly and Jiren, Vegeta's just gotten a major power boost and Freeza's still kicking around as well. He doesn't need to risk everything to try and redeem Moro, someone he has no real chemistry with and who got all his power by stealing it from others.
He never fought Hit at his full power as well due to tournament rules against killing. No matter how you look at it, there's absolutely no reason to spare, much less believe Moro will change. "Promise me you'll never do it again", seriously ? Has Toyotaro been watching too much DBZA ? I cannot believe they took who was my favorite character in the original manga and somehow made him my least favorite in all of anime/manga. Just when I thought Goku couldn't be written any worse, they somehow managed to surprise me. Then again, he's now semi-friends with Freeza so this shouldn't have been that surprising.

What I loved in the original manga was Goku's slow evolution from being someone no one took seriously to gradually becoming the group's leader through his many achievements. You look at him now and wonder how on earth anyone can take him seriously, much less follow him as a leader. All he's done since this revival started was fail, most of the time intentionally. I think someone saw the positive reception to him losing against Beerus and decided to have that be the default outcome of all his fights, just one failure after another. The reason it worked was because it wasn't the norm, now it's just tiring and predictable.
I know it's petty compared to everything else, but you've reminded me how much I hate Toyotaro's downplaying of Hit in his version. A credible threat with an interesting power-set in the anime, to being just kind of...there in the manga.

Here's the thing, I normally like Goku when his reckless and selfish nature causes problems, it's one of the most interesting aspects about his character. You mentioned him befriending Freeza, but that relationship has honestly been my favourite part of Super. I think it works because of Freeza developing more Goku-like traits every time he comes back. As evil as he is, he knows his own limits now and treats their conflict like a game, which is why it makes sense that Goku's ok with having him around.

The problem is, there's a subtlety to balancing Goku's idiocy with times where he should be more serious. Both Toei and Toyo's versions of Super have struggled with it, but I think the latter has handled it worse. Even at its worst, the Super anime did a pretty good job of balancing Goku the Idiot with Goku the Fighting Genius, but Toyotaro hasn't even been able to get the second part right.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:07 am

This staying of the hand gesture of mercy almost never works. Piccolo and Vegeta ultimately turned out well but they needed years of exposure to the goodness of people in tandem with mutual enemies to confront for their fires of malevolence to get stomped out. Moro has neither of those conditions -- his characterisation has been rooted in the sacrificing of others to indulge his insatiable appetite. You can't reason with a personality like that. Goku may as well be trying to talk Imperfect Cell down from absorbing Ginger Town.

Like others have acknowledged, Goku isn't acting with a discerning mind here because he would otherwise know how giving sociopaths a band-aide only serves to revert said sociopath back into a threat looking to stab him in the back. If you don't have the stomach to finish the job then just walk away. I'm pretty confident that Moro is weakened enough that Jaco could likely execute him.

I think the only nuance here is Seven-Three's fate. They could just resurrect him, however, if the survival of a criminal and collaborator of Moro's is that important to them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kanassa » Wed Oct 14, 2020 5:39 am

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:35 pm
Yeah, I have the feeling that they'll do something like have Goku jump in for the kill...only for MUI to run out for some reason. They'll find any reason they can to extend this arc.
Isn't UI supposed to be draining, even when fully mastered, for both the manga and anime version? Could see it being like when Goku suddenly collapses when he's about to take out Jiren.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:


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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:33 am

Totamo wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 am
but i do agree with one criticism about this arc: they have borrowed way too much from the original that it feels like a toei movie.

which begs the question: what happens when they run out of material to use because they have completely used up everything.
Dragon Ball seems to be cyclical at this point. So until the franchise ends or until someone legitimately has new ideas or just reboots the whole thing, they'll recycle as long as the franchise prints money. We've gotten this far into Super thanks to recycling. Every arc has a great deal of it. BoG is the only one relatively light on it, but maybe that's because it came out of an original Toei idea that Toriyama-san tweaked.
omaro34 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:39 am
Toyotaro is just not a great writer at all.

Outside of the forced spirit fission and Moro's abilities, everything else is reused material from previous arcs.
Forced spirit fission is a pretty big game changer as is the implication that the Earthlings are now honorary Ginga Patrol members. The Ginga Patrol connection may come into play against Frieza or they may help the Earthlings in some future event, kind of like the Green Lantern Corp in DC comics. It would be hella dope if some of the humans or Gohan even went galactic patrolling every so often. Maybe bring back some old school DB feel. Or it could all go nowhere, which is likely.

I think something that's flying under the radar thanks to Moro's presence, is the fact that there is someone out there in the universe who can create beings as sophisticated as Dr. Gero's androids. That's honestly a huge development that the arc totally glosses over. In many ways 7-3 is even more impressive than Cell, #17, & #18 though it's not obvious.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:29 am

I see no reason for Goku to spare Moro, he's the destroyer of worlds, not some rival, Moro will legit kill everyone given the chance, him changing would require some ludacris writing at this point. Hell, villains have done less than what Moro's done and they were killed off. Perfect Cell is more redeemable this psycho and that's saying something.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:05 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:06 am
I've seen some say that this is no different from him helping Piccolo, so why is it a big deal (thankfully it's not that many) ? Here's the 2 major differences between them(although god knows why this isn't obvious):

1- Piccolo didn't hurt anyone. He may have talked a lot about doing so, but he never hurt a soul, and went as far as fighting according to tournament rules. When Piccolo was healed, he left everyone alone for half a decade. Moro on the other hand ? tens of millions dead with zero redeeming qualities.

2- If Piccolo died, so would Kami. Let's say that Piccolo was even worse than Moro, they still couldn't kill him because it would kill an innocent person as well. What innocent person would die if Moro was killed ?
YamiGoku wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:30 pm
Thats not the real Goku, thats TFS Goku.
I cannot believe something like this found its way into official material.
Ziegander wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:43 pm
Self-parody? Please tell me that translation is incorrect.
I can't believe this happened 2 days after I called modern DB a self parody of the original.
Totamo wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:50 am
What happens when they run out of material to use because they have completely used up everything.
They'll just reuse everything again. They've already brought Freeza back twice, and had 2 Brolys back to back. We'll probably get another Future Trunks arc sooner or later.
Piccolo nuked the entire island. And he’s the same person as Demon King Piccolo, who was responsible for killing Gokus best friend.

I agree with comparing it to Piccolo isn’t really the same thing, but just thought I’d point that out.

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