If someone says "Toyotaro has no idea how to write Goku/Dragon Ball", they're really revealing that they don't understand Goku/Dragon Ball. I don't have it in me to once again explain the main character to "hardcore" fans, but please refer to this very helpful thread by Cipher, or any of the many wonderful Toriyama comments in the Kanzenshuu Translations section.
Complaining about retread is another issue, and while it's my main issue with this arc, I'll push back on it regarding Goku offering Moro a Senzu compared to Cell. Goku gave Cell a Senzu to (1) make it a fair fight and (2) increase the changes of drawing out Gohan's latent power. Goku gave Moro a Senzu as a test. There was never a chance that Moro could go free and train (although Goku admittedly would like that), but Goku wanted to give Moro a chance to return to jail with dignity. We knew that would never happen, but that's Goku, even when (or especially because) we the audience and every other character on the page disagrees with him.
I thought Chapter 64: Son Goku, Galactic Patrolman vs Chapter 65: Son Goku, Earthling was a neat juxtaposition that really drives Goku's characterization home.
Interesting new detail regarding MnG: "When Migatte no Gokui is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary." This seems to tie in to Omen in the ToP. When Goku wasn't fast enough to dodge Jiren's attacks outright, his body allowed hits to non-lethal areas. This feels like a progression of that. When Moro's body parts grow as a result of failing to maintain Merus' power, it seems like this feature is the specific trigger (as the areas that grow are the areas Goku succeeds in hitting). Moro's failure to once again skewer an opponent due to this attribute is very satisfying karma.
Another MnG detail is the seeming confirmation of a fan theory: Angels are constantly in a state of MnG. That's what Moro's white hair seems to imply, anyway. I will also say that it's cool that they actually went through with utilizing that severed hand, and I like the deformity parallel to Saganbo.
One more thing on MnG: Goku is now able to phase in and out of it without issue. At this point, it seems as though he has truly mastered it, so if he doesn't use it moving forward, there should be a good reason (not just because he hasn't really completed perfected mastered it 100%).
Something I missed on my first read through: Moro grabs the Senzu bag from Goku and crushes it. I love the two panels showing Goku remaining calm that follow.
The MnG vs MnG skirmish that follows has some decent scale. I maintain what I said last chapter about how this arc has given us the most "true" or "pure" showcase of MnG. Whis acting stern for once was a surprise. Planet Moro is the exact sort of whacky stuff I want from this series.
Seems like Vegeta, or perhaps the Dai Kaioshin, might be able to help defeat Planet Moro. If Earth/Moro must explode, my wildcard prediction is that Goku will demonstrate mastery of the technique he used in BoG to negate Beerus' Earth-ending attack. It didn't happen in the manga (he negated the attack with a Kamehameha, or at least the pose), but neither did the Monaka foreshadowing (which was later added as a between-chapters tankobon interstitial).
Thanks for this post. I'd been casting around for a unifying theme for this arc, and this has helped me see that it's "Stolen, Earned, and Given".
The arc itself begins with the Galactic Patrol stealing Majin Buu.
The first beat of the arc deals with a train heist by lowlife thieves.
Moro's whole deal is stealing energy from his targets, whether people or planets; he never earned any of his great power; fittingly, his backstory involved the Dai Kaioshin giving up half his power to "steal" Moro's magic (usually "seal" is the word used, but Moro mentions in Chapter 46 that Dai Kaioshin "stole my abilities".
Ultimately, Moro will steal the final wish from Cranberry to release his bandit henchmen from Galactic Patrol Prison.
Vegeta, for his part, reflects on how he stole the lives of the Namekians (as it were) when he was last on Namek. He works hard to earn redemption, which will be finally achieved when he is able to give back the lives of a remnant of Namekians in Chapter 61.
The Bandit Brigade are, obviously, thieves, and act as thieves when they team up with Moro - they pillage planets, steal their valuables, and then Moro steals their energy. It's also worth noting that it's pointed out that they didn't earn their strength either, but it's rather given out by Moro - this will be reflected in Saganbo not being able to handle the power doled out later in Chapter 58, being at sub-Kid Trunks level like he is.
Goku and Vegeta spend their time trying to earn new levels or kinds of power, in Ultra Instinct and Spirit Control, respectively, through the lessons given by Merus ("I will impart all that I have to you") and Pybara (as a tiny note on that, Vegeta mentions that he has no intention of stealing Goku's move - Shunkan Idou - after he uses it once in Chapter 60, and pins his hopes on having earned a more complicated technique) - as Pybara notes, Vegeta is "a prodigy of hard work" - he's earned it.
OG73-I, in particular, steals the moves of his enemies via his copy ability, right down to the force of their punches and kicks; Gohan and Piccolo will eventually work out a counter-measure by combo moves, and Gohan says they'd never lose to "some copycat", pointing up the superiority of their approach.
Moro will not only steal OG73-I's power (and his own previously stolen power, 'backed up'), but also his Copy Ability.
Merus will give his life to push Goku to attain to what he has worked for - Ultra Instinct.
And then, the spoiler parts:
Spoiler:
Goku aims to give Moro a chance to change, stealing the Senzu Beans and giving him one.
Goku makes a point of saying that Moro never trained, and never earned his power - if he had done so, he would be much stronger than he has become from stealing lives.
Moro tries to steal Merus's power, but because he never trained for it - never earned it - he can't handle it, just like Saganbo, who was given stolen power that wasn't earned.
Finally, Moro goes for the final gamble of trying to steal the Earth to contain his stolen power.
I'm sure there's other stuff, but that was very useful to think with. Thanks.
batistabus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:11 pm
If someone says "Toyotaro has no idea how to write Goku/Dragon Ball", they're really revealing that they don't understand Goku/Dragon Ball. I don't have it in me to once again explain the main character to "hardcore" fans, but please refer to this very helpful thread by Cipher, or any of the many wonderful Toriyama comments in the Kanzenshuu Translations section.
Complaining about retread is another issue, and while it's my main issue with this arc, I'll push back on it regarding Goku offering Moro a Senzu compared to Cell. Goku gave Cell a Senzu to (1) make it a fair fight and (2) increase the changes of drawing out Gohan's latent power. Goku gave Moro a Senzu as a test. There was never a chance that Moro could go free and train (although Goku admittedly would like that), but Goku wanted to give Moro a chance to return to jail with dignity. We knew that would never happen, but that's Goku, even when (or especially because) we the audience and every other character on the page disagrees with him.
I thought Chapter 64: Son Goku, Galactic Patrolman vs Chapter 65: Son Goku, Earthling was a neat juxtaposition that really drives Goku's characterization home.
Interesting new detail regarding MnG: "When Migatte no Gokui is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary." This seems to tie in to Omen in the ToP. When Goku wasn't fast enough to dodge Jiren's attacks outright, his body allowed hits to non-lethal areas. This feels like a progression of that. When Moro's body parts grow as a result of failing to maintain Merus' power, it seems like this feature is the specific trigger (as the areas that grow are the areas Goku succeeds in hitting). Moro's failure to once again skewer an opponent due to this attribute is very satisfying karma.
Another MnG detail is the seeming confirmation of a fan theory: Angels are constantly in a state of MnG. That's what Moro's white hair seems to imply, anyway. I will also say that it's cool that they actually went through with utilizing that severed hand, and I like the deformity parallel to Saganbo.
One more thing on MnG: Goku is now able to phase in and out of it without issue. At this point, it seems as though he has truly mastered it, so if he doesn't use it moving forward, there should be a good reason (not just because he hasn't really completed perfected mastered it 100%).
Something I missed on my first read through: Moro grabs the Senzu bag from Goku and crushes it. I love the two panels showing Goku remaining calm that follow.
The MnG vs MnG skirmish that follows has some decent scale. I maintain what I said last chapter about how this arc has given us the most "true" or "pure" showcase of MnG. Whis acting stern for once was a surprise. Planet Moro is the exact sort of whacky stuff I want from this series.
Seems like Vegeta, or perhaps the Dai Kaioshin, might be able to help defeat Planet Moro. If Earth/Moro must explode, my wildcard prediction is that Goku will demonstrate mastery of the technique he used in BoG to negate Beerus' Earth-ending attack. It didn't happen in the manga (he negated the attack with a Kamehameha, or at least the pose), but neither did the Monaka foreshadowing (which was later added as a between-chapters tankobon interstitial).
Thanks for this post. I'd been casting around for a unifying theme for this arc, and this has helped me see that it's "Stolen, Earned, and Given".
The arc itself begins with the Galactic Patrol stealing Majin Buu.
The first beat of the arc deals with a train heist by lowlife thieves.
Moro's whole deal is stealing energy from his targets, whether people or planets; he never earned any of his great power; fittingly, his backstory involved the Dai Kaioshin giving up half his power to "steal" Moro's magic (usually "seal" is the word used, but Moro mentions in Chapter 46 that Dai Kaioshin "stole my abilities".
Ultimately, Moro will steal the final wish from Cranberry to release his bandit henchmen from Galactic Patrol Prison.
Vegeta, for his part, reflects on how he stole the lives of the Namekians (as it were) when he was last on Namek. He works hard to earn redemption, which will be finally achieved when he is able to give back the lives of a remnant of Namekians in Chapter 61.
The Bandit Brigade are, obviously, thieves, and act as thieves when they team up with Moro - they pillage planets, steal their valuables, and then Moro steals their energy. It's also worth noting that it's pointed out that they didn't earn their strength either, but it's rather given out by Moro - this will be reflected in Saganbo not being able to handle the power doled out later in Chapter 58, being at sub-Kid Trunks level like he is.
Goku and Vegeta spend their time trying to earn new levels or kinds of power, in Ultra Instinct and Spirit Control, respectively, through the lessons given by Merus ("I will impart all that I have to you") and Pybara (as a tiny note on that, Vegeta mentions that he has no intention of stealing Goku's move - Shunkan Idou - after he uses it once in Chapter 60, and pins his hopes on having earned a more complicated technique) - as Pybara notes, Vegeta is "a prodigy of hard work" - he's earned it.
OG73-I, in particular, steals the moves of his enemies via his copy ability, right down to the force of their punches and kicks; Gohan and Piccolo will eventually work out a counter-measure by combo moves, and Gohan says they'd never lose to "some copycat", pointing up the superiority of their approach.
Moro will not only steal OG73-I's power (and his own previously stolen power, 'backed up'), but also his Copy Ability.
Merus will give his life to push Goku to attain to what he has worked for - Ultra Instinct.
And then, the spoiler parts:
Spoiler:
Goku aims to give Moro a chance to change, stealing the Senzu Beans and giving him one.
Goku makes a point of saying that Moro never trained, and never earned his power - if he had done so, he would be much stronger than he has become from stealing lives.
Moro tries to steal Merus's power, but because he never trained for it - never earned it - he can't handle it, just like Saganbo, who was given stolen power that wasn't earned.
Finally, Moro goes for the final gamble of trying to steal the Earth to contain his stolen power.
I'm sure there's other stuff, but that was very useful to think with. Thanks.
Nice analysis.
This. So many people on this thread only look at this stuff at Surface Level. Manga Mui is the best showing of it by far. Anime MUI getting a rage boost can take a hike.
I didn’t notice Moro grabbing the bag, thats a neat detail. I was hoping the Mui Moro fight would have lasted a tad longer.
Toyotaro’s paneling and art has been improving every chapter but people only mention Toyotaro’s art when its bad sooo you know.
Also the theme of stealing Vs earned power is neat
For me the chapter was pretty good EXCEPT the Senzu part. It was not needed.
But so much hinges on how they end the arc for me. If the lesson that training and earning your power and not stealing comes full circle and BOTH Goku AND Vegeta beat Moro with what they learned from training and Moro realizes this is why he failed that to me will be a satisfying end.
I just pray it’s not some twist ending because I am so sick of those.
I get where people are coming with the Senzu. it's not cell but it feels too much like cell, The was a big error is a miscalculation when Goku did it the first time, so why'd he try it again I dunno. I would of liked Krillin to be a little more critical.
If Vegeta has to clean up, it'll be good but it will be at the expense of Goku, not because Goku couldn't handle it.
eledoremassis02 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:06 pm
If Vegeta has to clean up, it'll be good but it will be at the expense of Goku, not because Goku couldn't handle it.
Vegeta messed up too and then Goku had to come in and fix things with UI. They actually both failed a similar amount of times in the arc
Anyways I don’t think it should be either of them winning solo but a joint effort that way it’s not at the expense of either and the build up of both their trainings won’t feel wasted
That was my issue with UI Goku winning on his own, it really felt like all the built up with Vegeta came to nothing since besides a very quick scene of him bringing back the Namekians, he just made things worse. And unlike UI, What Vegeta learned is so specific to this arc to not have it really accomplish anything to me is a major let down
As for Goku failing I think the main issue is making him make a dumb decision. I am fine with him wasting time or accidentally letting Merus teaching him UI slip. Those are honest mistakes. But the Senzu was taking things too far and really they easily could have rewrote the scene without that and still lead to the same place we are now with just a few minor changes.
But I just hope that both Goku and Vegeta get to make things right together so they can show that earning your own power is the right path.
Tai Lung wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:53 pm
this chapter is as bad as the spoilers indicate
I do not see why others say otherwise
Because opinions can vary wildly between individuals, more than likely?
ok I can understand if they were false spoilers but the truth was they were not .. goku kept giving a senzu bean to Moro ... even if it is a gesture of mercy or that goku knew it was wrong, does that matter?
It is still something horrible this is the same goku who did not have that gesture with Zamasu and supposedly had learned that Moro was a danger since Merus sacrificed his life ... and millions years before was the same evil monster
I am fine with others enjoying the positive points such as the drawing which was excellent .. and maybe Moro UI losing the control
but to say that the writing is a quality work or that they should have shame their opinion before the chapter out meh ... moro arc is a few steps away from being a copy of the cell arc
eledoremassis02 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:06 pm
If Vegeta has to clean up, it'll be good but it will be at the expense of Goku, not because Goku couldn't handle it.
Vegeta messed up too and then Goku had to come in and fix things with UI. They actually both failed a similar amount of times in the arc
Anyways I don’t think it should be either of them winning solo but a joint effort that way it’s not at the expense of either and the build up of both their trainings won’t feel wasted
That was my issue with UI Goku winning on his own, it really felt like all the built up with Vegeta came to nothing since besides a very quick scene of him bringing back the Namekians, he just made things worse. And unlike UI, What Vegeta learned is so specific to this arc to not have it really accomplish anything to me is a major let down
As for Goku failing I think the main issue is making him make a dumb decision. I am fine with him wasting time or accidentally letting Merus teaching him UI slip. Those are honest mistakes. But the Senzu was taking things too far and really they easily could have rewrote the scene without that and still lead to the same place we are now with just a few minor changes.
But I just hope that both Goku and Vegeta get to make things right together so they can show that earning your own power is the right path.
That's true, but I think it would be a better win for Vegeta if "Goku couldn't do it, who can?!"
I'm going to say this; saying "this is just how Goku is" is a complete failure of writing and an attempt to keep Goku as a static, unchanging character. Retreading the same ground again and again and again. The end of the RoF arc covered this. It was meant to teach Goku the lesson of what happens when you don't finish the job. Once again everyone and everything is in danger because they won't allow Goku to retain lessons he already learned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lkd5cWG8X8
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Zelvin wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 pm
I'm going to say this; saying "this is just how Goku is" is a complete failure of writing and an attempt to keep Goku as a static, unchanging character. Retreading the same ground again and again and again. The end of the RoF arc covered this. It was meant to teach Goku the lesson of what happens when you don't finish the job. Once again everyone and everything is in danger because they won't allow Goku to retain lessons he already learned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lkd5cWG8X8
Yeah I agree, it's bad writing. Moro's got like THREE CHANCES and he blew all of them. Hell, Moro's gotten dozens of chances if you count the fact he's been in jail for millions of years, if he reflected on his actions and realized that him eating planets was wrong, he would've changed and we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
Moro needs to die and it's ridiculous we're still discussing the idea of killing him. Moro has long surpassed the moral event horizon by now and keeping him alive is quite literally going to get everyone on earth, including Goku, killed. Moro is an unrepentant planet eating sociopath, stalling the inevitable and trying to spare him is dumb, because even if Goku knew he wouldn't change and wanted a fight as Moro is toughest bastard he's faced so far, it's not fucking worth it given what keeping Moro around means. Especially now that he's basically the planet, if Moro isn't killed, the northern universe is fucked if they don't remove him.
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this is a doubt and not complaint but not in the manga they also had a level to destroy the universe but for some reason now everything is just galaxy?
Tai Lung wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:53 am
this is a doubt and not complaint but not in the manga they also had a level to destroy the universe but for some reason now everything is just galaxy?
Yeah kinda weird. Even Fusion Zamasu in the manga only threatened to destroy the Galaxy. You would think Moro exploding would obliterate way more than that.
JewyB wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:26 pm
So, in a way to satisfy everyone what if Moro lives?
That might be a good way to see his back story. Have one or several characters from his past join up with him in the present day. Maybe finding out he's lower on the pecking order than we thought.
Tai Lung wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:53 am
this is a doubt and not complaint but not in the manga they also had a level to destroy the universe but for some reason now everything is just galaxy?
Yeah kinda weird. Even Fusion Zamasu in the manga only threatened to destroy the Galaxy. You would think Moro exploding would obliterate way more than that.
I pointed that out in the past, apparently it's a "Toyotaro thing" to underestimate the destructive capabilities of these beings. I mean, Fused Zamasu and Angel Moro would have to be Kid Buu tier if they can only destroy a galaxy... but that clearly can't be. For some reason, Toyotaro just doesn't want to make the villains badass, universal busters.
The power of an Angel ought to be able to do more than just threaten a galaxy. Merus may be young in comparison to Whis and the other Angels but reality-altering powers aren't really "safer" or less volatile just because the particular user was a boy. Angels can reverse time and even transport multiple objects as large as planets across a universe: manipulation of the very fabric of space-time. That's not even all they can do as far as we know.
The destruction of the galaxy should be the least of their worries if power like that got out of control.
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SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:50 amI pointed that out in the past, apparently it's a "Toyotaro thing" to underestimate the destructive capabilities of these beings. I mean, Fused Zamasu and Angel Moro would have to be Kid Buu tier if they can only destroy a galaxy... but that clearly can't be. For some reason, Toyotaro just doesn't want to make the villains badass, universal busters.
The anime also had Frieza threaten he can destroy a planet.. on Tournament of Power of all things
After that line I became aware the staff just doesn't have the mindset to put destructive capacity much higher now.
Which is weird, because the Beerus vs Goku anime fight had some spectacular effects that weren't repeated since.
SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:50 amI pointed that out in the past, apparently it's a "Toyotaro thing" to underestimate the destructive capabilities of these beings. I mean, Fused Zamasu and Angel Moro would have to be Kid Buu tier if they can only destroy a galaxy... but that clearly can't be. For some reason, Toyotaro just doesn't want to make the villains badass, universal busters.
The anime also had Frieza threaten he can destroy a planet.. on Tournament of Power of all things
After that line I became aware the staff just doesn't have the mindset to put destructive capacity much higher now.
Which is weird, because the Beerus vs Goku anime fight had some spectacular effects that weren't repeated since.
Just think about it, these beings are so much stronger than Goku and Beerus when they fought, and that fight alone risked to destroy the universe itself... yet apparently these beings can only destroy the galaxy? Nice writing.
SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:06 am
Just think about it, these beings are so much stronger than Goku and Beerus when they fought, and that fight alone risked to destroy the universe itself... yet apparently these beings can only destroy the galaxy? Nice writing.
Yeah, the colateral damage of the fight between Goku and Beerus was expected in a fight of gods. But as intense as it was they weren’t feeling that much impact from being near them in the exhibition match, so it was probably an outlier. So, apparently this is how it is:
- Zeno can destroy universes.
- Gods can destroy galaxies.
- Mortals can destroy planets.
Lord Beerus wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:08 pm
Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 65:
- Okay... the senzu bean scene. Now, I can see what Toyotaro is going for. He wants to convey a scene where Goku is in such dominance that can afford for Moro to be fulled healed for that not even be a factor in how the fight progresses. It's basically a repeated story beat of Cell being given a senzu by Goku because Goku was so confident in Gohan defeating him. But the huge problem with that scene is that the story has already made is abundantly clear that Moro at his strongest (at that point) can't touch Complete Ultra Instinct. So healing Moro adds nothing to plot other than emphasising something we already know about Moro (he's a piece of shit), to stall for enough time for Moro to think of a way to extend the battle and turn in his favour and unnecessarily portray Goku as an pants-on-head idiot.
- I HATED the scene where Goku was trying to convince Moro to go away and train. Part of what makes antagonists slowly become better people in Dragon Ball was always through Goku's actions not his words. It seems like Toyotaro took the context of Goku saying to Freeza back on Namek before they had their battle that he would have made a good sparring partner if he wasn't so evil, and tried to expand on that previous character beat, not realising that moment wasn't meant to serve as Goku trying to get Freeza to become a decent person. Moro has lived for millions of years and has wiped out God knows how many lives across the universe and has openly declared he likes doing it. So it's way too late for Goku to be expecting some form of humanity from Moro, that it makes him so ridiculously naive for him to even entertain Moro with the idea of him willingly surrendering to the Galactic Patrol. Especially considering Goku never showed this kind of mercy to previous antagonists in Super, or Dragon Ball general, when they were more vulnerable than Moro. So this character beat feel arbitrary and out of place in general.
What makes it worse is that Goku knows full well by this point that, evne in his strongest forms, he can still be majorly fucked over by a weaker foe with an ambush or such. The like of Moro? The strongest opponent he's ever faced who's whole gimmick is constantly pulling shady bullshit out of his ass? Yeah, just POWER DOWN TO YOUR BASE FORM and have a little casual chin wag.
And Toyo making Goku's UI given him such an edge kinda falls flat when you realize how Moro gets his hand back. Goku (Mastered UI Goku), not only doesn't notice Moro very clearly looking towards the hand, but doesn't have the reflexes or speed to stop it from sailing RIGHT past his shoulder. Everyone's talking about the next Arc nerfing it, but UI's already been nerfed now.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
