"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:14 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:29 pm
Literally nothing about Goku lamenting if only Freeza was good or trained his power.
The manga "literally" disagrees. Go read it.

The dialogue about Freeza's pride is completely divorced from the prospect of killing him. It comes up once when Goku initially quits the fight because he's satisfied it's shattered. That doesn't pan out, and other internal conflicts come into play later on.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:00 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:14 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:29 pm
Literally nothing about Goku lamenting if only Freeza was good or trained his power.
The manga "literally" disagrees. Go read it.

The dialogue about Freeza's pride is completely divorced from the prospect of killing him. It comes up once when Goku initially quits the fight because he's satisfied it's shattered. That doesn't pan out, and other internal conflicts come into play later on.

I did reread the Freeza chapters. Goku gives Freeza a chance after being defeated to see the errors of his ways. I am not disputing that. Goku was disappointed in Freeza for not accepting this offer . But that’s not the same as lamenting if only Freeza was good.

Nor does Goku say anything about if Freeza improved himself he would be so much stronger. He is just telling him to regain his strength and come back when he learned new attacks. The scene you point to is not Goku being disappointed in how Freeza earned his power but more in that Freeza is no longer a challenge and is just resorting to desperate moves.

Moreover Goku later regrets giving Freeza that chance and says as much himself to Trunks.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:33 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:00 pm
Goku gives Freeza a chance after being defeated to see the errors of his ways. I am not disputing that. Goku was disappointed in Freeza for not accepting this offer.
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:00 pm
He is just telling him to regain his strength and come back when he learned a few new tricks.
There's no substantial difference in context of what I'm saying. To pry them apart based on minute details is to miss the point.

However you slice it, Goku bemoans that someone of Freeza's power would be wasted on someone of Freeza's low integrity and desperation (i.e. "not taking the craft seriously") and that the broader conflict of going soft on Freeza is similar (as I said) to his lamentation with Moro - not necessarily identical. I didn't claim it was an exact retread. The chapter likely would have been heavily criticized if it was.

It's also only a footnote of my original point.
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:00 pm
Moreover Goku later regrets giving Freeza that chance and says as much himself to Trunks.
I'm aware. Firstly, it's further proof that Goku's mercy wasn't about shattering Freeza's pride, and secondly, it's hardly the first time Goku acknowledged a mistake only to repeat the same blunder. Retrospection isn't equivalent to being in the hotseat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:40 pm

I didn't mind this chapter that much but I got to say the senzu thing was a bit unnecessary, Moro should've gotten his arm back without it, would've made Goku not feel as reckless tbh but still keeping the "I wanna give you another chance" thing that toyo was going for.
However the art was really good and seeing a fight between two users of MUI was pretty neat, Planet Moro was also great looking bit derpy but still.

This chapter though has kind of solidified that Goku has got a pretty good handle on MUI. Which makes me wonder, where the hell do we go from here concerning threats honestly, as well as Vegeta and what about him, the guy needs either MUI too or some other transformation which fits him (Might sound controversial and dumb but SSJ4 could be brought back this way maybe a bit redesigned).
These are all just my thoughts, overall the chapter was okay. The next one feels like its gonna be the big finale and then a chapter after that to tie this arc up.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:45 pm

OrangeBanana wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:40 pm
I didn't mind this chapter that much but I got to say the senzu thing was a bit unnecessary, Moro should've gotten his arm back without it, would've made Goku not feel as reckless tbh but still keeping the "I wanna give you another chance" thing that toyo was going for.
However the art was really good and seeing a fight between two users of MUI was pretty neat, Planet Moro was also great looking bit derpy but still.

This chapter though has kind of solidified that Goku has got a pretty good handle on MUI. Which makes me wonder, where the hell do we go from here concerning threats honestly, as well as Vegeta and what about him, the guy needs either MUI too or some other transformation which fits him (Might sound controversial and dumb but SSJ4 could be brought back this way maybe a bit redesigned).
These are all just my thoughts, overall the chapter was okay. The next one feels like its gonna be the big finale and then a chapter after that to tie this arc up.
I think Moro lost all his copied abilities when Merus shattered his head jewel, that's why he couldn't just regenerate the injury (?) and why he installed the jewel that copied Merus' in his head.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:54 am
BWri wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 2:47 am
The problem with this is, the power that Moro has that you say excites Goku is built on the backs of what has to be billions of innocent (and not so innocent) lives at this point. Goku knows this. Goku should not respect this power in any way, not even if it can fuel someone into a potential rivalry. Goku's shown disgust for wanton killing before on a much smaller scale so why would he respect the power of someone who is fueled by planetary death?
I feel like this is overstating your case. Vegeta's power was likewise built on simply destroying planetloads of people, and Goku knew that full well when he thought that killing him would be a 'waste', too.
I disagree. It's not the same. Vegeta's power is gained through martial combat, same as Goku's. Sure it's gained through unscrupulous martial combat but its still not the same as power literally fueled by the lifeforce of the people and planets Moro has extinguished. It's several magnitudes of difference, enough to make the acts basically incomparable. You're comparing a tribal conqueror fighting with sticks and stones to a nuke basically, a nuke powered by the lifeforce of millions of others.
Goku being excited by the prospect of a real challenge, and taking action to aid and abet that challenge even when he knows that the person embodying it is a total scumbag, is well established by this point.
It's because it's far beyond scumbaggery and Goku is known to kill folks who pose a serious threat. There's the entire RR Army, Piccolo's Spawn, King Piccolo, Raditz, Future Frieza, Future Cold, Cell (through Gohan), Yakon, Buu, and RoF Frieza. Moro eclipses all these threats by a margin of several magnitudes. Point being, Goku knows what Moro's done and how he operates. Goku knows when to turn-on kill mode.
I'm not sure why so many people are taking exception to it, or trying to pry those things apart in order to suggest that he shouldn't characteristically think that way.
There's no prying. On it's face this is dumb and uncharacteristic of Goku. Moro is a threat beyond reproach. In the past, Goku has shown us that he knows when a threat is too big to contain. Most of those Goku killed, he killed in the heat of combat but with those he spared, rarely did he ever restore them to full. He did so with Piccolo and Frieza and only offered Cell a sensu so he could fight with Gohan with no excuses. The original manga shows us a throughline of Goku learning from his previous mistakes and later against Buu, Golden Frieza, and Zamasu, he didn't offer to restore them at all. His request to fight Buu again only occurred after he killed him, which was a smart move. After that, Goku should just literally wish all of his strong opponents be reincarnated.

Having him revert back with an enemy at Moro's level, especially when that enemy has shown no signs of "good" just shows that they are exaggerating Goku's core traits at this point. Mercy is one thing that is Goku-like even if he isn't exactly consistent with it, but healing an enemy like Moro and expecting him to go quietly alone with Jaco is very unGoku-like. All if this is just to keep the plot spinning. It's clear as day.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JewyB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:45 pm

BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
.
Goku being excited by the prospect of a real challenge, and taking action to aid and abet that challenge even when he knows that the person embodying it is a total scumbag, is well established by this point.
It's because it's far beyond scumbaggery and Goku is known to kill folks who pose a serious threat. There's the entire RR Army, Piccolo's Spawn, King Piccolo, Raditz, Future Frieza, Future Cold, Cell (through Gohan), Yakon, Buu, and RoF Frieza. Moro eclipses all these threats by a margin of several magnitudes. Point being, Goku knows what Moro's done and how he operates. Goku knows when to turn-on kill mode.
I dont really have a horse in this race but this is a very shaky list. Its kinda widely accepted that kid Goku was more murder happy than adult Goku, so i would argue pre-Raditz is irrelevant, Goku isnt a kid anymore. Raditz was killed by Piccolo in a last ditch effort as he eclipsed both their powers.

Future Frieza is an odd example because it shows exactly how many times Goku was willing to spare Frieza before finally killing him, which supports him not killing Moro, Futue Cold i will give you. But i would consider both moot anyway as they are not part of current Goku's anything at all ever.

Cell, come on that's Gohans kill. Yakon, fair but Yakon also ate himself to death, its kinda of a responsibility on both sides situation, if a bear eats a fish and chokes to death on it do you blame the fish? Yes i know Goku is more powerful than a fish but the point is pretty clear. Buu is another example like Frieza, of Goku taking responsibility after giving him several chances. RoF Frieza is also that, although at that point he "learned his lesson" but did he? Moro arc says no. I mean, he did proceed to bring Frieza back, how much could that lesson have stuck really?

But yeah just kinda... dipping make out now *ghosts*

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:10 pm

JewyB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:45 pm
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
.
Goku being excited by the prospect of a real challenge, and taking action to aid and abet that challenge even when he knows that the person embodying it is a total scumbag, is well established by this point.
It's because it's far beyond scumbaggery and Goku is known to kill folks who pose a serious threat. There's the entire RR Army, Piccolo's Spawn, King Piccolo, Raditz, Future Frieza, Future Cold, Cell (through Gohan), Yakon, Buu, and RoF Frieza. Moro eclipses all these threats by a margin of several magnitudes. Point being, Goku knows what Moro's done and how he operates. Goku knows when to turn-on kill mode.
I dont really have a horse in this race but this is a very shaky list. Its kinda widely accepted that kid Goku was more murder happy than adult Goku, so i would argue pre-Raditz is irrelevant, Goku isnt a kid anymore.
If he was more consistently this way I would agree with you, but his track record is inconsistent as all hell. There's also no explicit reading that Goku was taught to be more merciful or anything like that so it's all up to interpretation. Again, if Goku consistently showed a "mercy-first" attitude then I'd agree.
Raditz was killed by Piccolo in a last ditch effort as he eclipsed both their powers.
Goku not only agreed to kill Raditz but he also colluded with Piccolo in planning the murder and aided him in carrying it out. Yes Raditz was stronger, but that's my point, Goku knows when to turn on the kill button. Moro literally almost killed Goku a few chapters back. 2 chapters ago Goku was still too weak to even challenge him.
Future Frieza is an odd example because it shows exactly how many times Goku was willing to spare Frieza before finally killing him, which supports him not killing Moro,
He let him go on Namek and killed him on Earth before he could hurt anyone. Nothing odd about that. You think if a fully healed Moro goes into the cold void of space with Jaco that he won't kill him? You think Goku could save him in time or would even know to save him in time while all the way on Earth? You think Moro still has that teleporting power 7-3 had a few chapters ago? You think in that situation that Moro could just 'port out to another planet after killing Jaco and genocide that entire world too, becoming yet again stronger than Goku?
Futue Cold i will give you. But i would consider both moot anyway as they are not part of current Goku's anything at all ever.
It's a decision that current Goku said he would have made if Trunks didn't show up. It is very relevant.
Cell, come on that's Gohans kill.
Who coached Gohan to make this kill, over and over and over? Who evenly managed to coach him into finally making the kill? It seems like this Goku is performing the same role as Jaco in the latest DBS chapter.
Yakon, fair but Yakon also ate himself to death, its kinda of a responsibility on both sides situation, if a bear eats a fish and chokes to death on it do you blame the fish?
Goku's whole strat was to overload him, that was the point of going SSJ2. He could've warned him of what was going to happen but I don't believe he did. He killed him.
Buu is another example like Frieza, of Goku taking responsibility after giving him several chances.
I don't remember many chances being given here. I remember him recognizing the threat Buu possessed and eventually killing him. Maybe 1 chance, idk.
RoF Frieza is also that, although at that point he "learned his lesson" but did he? Moro arc says no. I mean, he did proceed to bring Frieza back, how much could that lesson have stuck really?
True, though Frieza is sort of different at this point. Goku's morality is weird, but the one thing he seems to have a gripe with is wanton killing. I don't believe Frieza poses that sort of threat anymore. He seems to be of the mindset of "getting his affairs in order" at this current moment and not of genociding planets like before. That's my interpretation anyway.
But yeah just kinda... dipping make out now *ghosts*
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm

BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
I disagree. It's not the same. Vegeta's power is gained through martial combat, same as Goku's. Sure it's gained through unscrupulous martial combat but its still not the same as power literally fueled by the lifeforce of the people and planets Moro has extinguished. It's several magnitudes of difference, enough to make the acts basically incomparable. You're comparing a tribal conqueror fighting with sticks and stones to a nuke basically, a nuke powered by the lifeforce of millions of others.
Power gained through extermination is power gained through extermination, and that's what they both are. The question of degree is not something I consider to be particularly material to this basic point. Why should either kind of power be 'respectable' from this perspective?

But the real point is that Goku perceives in both instances that the power could be much more than it is, by doing things right, and seeks to nurture it along these lines to prevent it from going to waste. The comparison seems similar enough to me in this way - much more similar than dissimilar - hence why I deem it relevant.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
Goku is known to kill folks who pose a serious threat.
Goku is also known to spare or intercede on behalf of folks who pose a serious threat, and it usually tends to be people in a position to do him serious harm later - Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza - you'd have to squint really hard to ignore those, or contend that they're somehow not relevant here. Saying that this particular instance of Goku demonstrating a well-established characteristic goes too far and is 'uncharacteristic' in some fashion doesn't seem particularly convincing, to me.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
There's no prying. On it's face this is dumb and uncharacteristic of Goku. Moro is a threat beyond reproach. In the past, Goku has shown us that he knows when a threat is too big to contain.
If this is the crux of it, in your view, then I guess I have to ask what about Moro at that point was particularly uncontained? Until he fused with the planet (hardly an obvious outcome), he wasn't able to do a thing to Goku, even when he gained Angelic Powers. Goku knows Moro can't challenge him, threaten him, or do anything to him now, even says so, and accordingly acts so. What's 'dumb' about that? It's really just facing facts.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
Goku is known to kill folks who pose a serious threat.
Goku is also known to spare or intercede on behalf of folks who pose a serious threat, and it usually tends to be people in a position to do him serious harm later - Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza - you'd have to squint really hard to ignore those, or contend that they're somehow not relevant here. Saying that this particular instance of Goku demonstrating a well-established characteristic goes too far and is 'uncharacteristic' in some fashion doesn't seem particularly convincing, to me.
I've already said that Moro is several magnitudes worse than either of these other fighters so I haven't ignored anything.

Before Moro's current acts we have this:

"Moro destroyed the Iragi Star System and brought about the mass extinction of life on 320 planets."

As far as threat level goes, even in prison we have this:

"The seal on Moro's magic power broke, allowing him to escape from the Galactic Patrol's prison which Merus believes is due to him regaining some of his magic."

Even after all that Moro has already, in his short stint in the series genocided several worlds and devoured them including Zoon and many other unnamed worlds. His levels of intergalactic destruction makes Frieza's previous acts look downright juvenile in comparison. I don't even think Buu managed to destroy as much.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
There's no prying. On it's face this is dumb and uncharacteristic of Goku. Moro is a threat beyond reproach. In the past, Goku has shown us that he knows when a threat is too big to contain.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
If this is the crux of it, in your view, then I guess I have to ask what about Moro at that point was particularly uncontained?
"Moro destroyed the Iragi Star System and brought about the mass extinction of life on 320 planets."
"The seal on Moro's magic power broke, allowing him to escape from the Galactic Patrol's prison which Merus believes is due to him regaining some of his magic."
Not only that, but we don't know the depths of his magic, absorption, and assimilation. Goku literally keeps discovering new things about him so he's still very dangerous.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
Until he fused with the planet (hardly an obvious outcome), he wasn't able to do a thing to Goku, even when he gained Angelic Powers. Goku knows Moro can't challenge him, threaten him, or do anything to him now, even says so, and accordingly acts so.
Let's take what Goku recommended Jaco to do. Alone in space, just Jaco and a fully healed Moro, do you think that Goku who's on Earth can get to Jaco in time to save him from Moro should Moro decided to kill him. It's not inconceivable that Moro would have some contingency to escape GP custody again. Who's to say he can't use his magic to hide his ki from Goku and disguise himself? Who knows what other abilities he has? Goku sure doesn't.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
What's 'dumb' about that? It's really just facing facts.
Everything about it is dumb. There are no facts to face. Goku is not omnipotent and Moro is an opponent known to have contingency on top of contingency. He is also able to escape GP custody as shown before. Mercy, while not wise, is fine. It's something we kind of even expect from Goku. Giving a sensu to what shakes out to be a Galactus level threat is dumb. Moro would have survived either way, so the sensu was a level of foolishness and hubris that can't even be charted. And Goku going this far out of his way to reform anyone is out of character, especially when he knows Moro's resume.
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
(hardly an obvious outcome)
This is Moro. Every time Moro has gotten the upperhand, it's hardly been obvious and yet Goku thinks he knows everything that he's capable of. That's extremely foolish. At this level, Goku should know better. He has in the past.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:18 pm
Power gained through extermination is power gained through extermination, and that's what they both are. The question of degree is not something I consider to be particularly material to this basic point. Why should either kind of power be 'respectable' from this perspective?
Vegeta’s battle power didn’t come directly from extermination so that’s a weird comparison.

Also Goku knew what he was doing was wrong when it came to Vegeta. He even said it was a selfish request. Also nowhere did he say he was letting Vegeta go because he might turn good some day. He even tells Kuririn that is not the reason. Perhaps that is what Vegeta thought but thats not what Goku said. At the time Goku didn’t consider that he beat Vegeta and he wanted a rematch with him. And at the time he didn’t know there was anyone else as strong as Vegeta.

Obviously as it turned out Goku far surpassed Vegeta in the very next arc but at the end of the Saiyan arc he didn’t know about Freeza and SSJ etc.

Technically what Goku did was even more dangerous with Vegeta since he’s letting Vegeta go not giving him a chance. But I still feel I understood his reasoning a lot more there.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:01 pm

BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 pm
I've already said that Moro is several magnitudes worse than either of these other fighters so I haven't ignored anything.
Again, even if true, I do not find questions of degree to be particularly material to the question of whether Goku sparing dangerous people (which, from Vegeta onwards, is a planet-exterminating level of danger and upwards) is characteristic of him or not, or unwise or not. Either they all are, or none of them are. But they're all in keeping with each other.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:19 pm
Even after all that Moro has already, in his short stint in the series genocided several worlds and devoured them including Zoon and many other unnamed worlds. His levels of intergalactic destruction makes Frieza's previous acts look downright juvenile in comparison. I don't even think Buu managed to destroy as much.
Freeza controls "several hundred" planets (and the populations of much of them were presumably erased for his pleasure), besides the ones he outright destroyed; Buu destroyed "hundreds of planets" in "just a few years", according to Shin as of DB #445. Moro isn't particularly remarkable because he is responsible for the destruction of lots of planets. It doesn't make him more of a threat than what we've already seen, nor does it make him an outlier if Goku chooses to spare him.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
Not only that, but we don't know the depths of his magic, absorption, and assimilation. Goku literally keeps discovering new things about him so he's still very dangerous.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
Everything about it is dumb. There are no facts to face. Goku is not omnipotent and Moro is an opponent known to have contingency on top of contingency.
'Danger' is relative to what Moro is capable of doing to Goku. Piccolo was 'dangerous' when Goku fed him a Senzu - he'd gored him literally 5 minutes earlier. Vegeta was 'dangerous' when he was spared and let go - he'd literally crushed Goku, and was on the verge of returning to Earth to kill everyone before Freeza interrupted. Freeza was 'dangerous' at all points. Yet, all of them got spared, and all of them did more to Goku than Moro can now. Nothing Moro can do can harm Goku. He can't physically harm him (he harms himself more than he harms Goku, even when he's allowed a free shot); he can't absorb his energy (he couldn't do that even when Goku was using Omen, let alone True Ultra Instinct); he's tried various things, magical and otherwise, that just ended up with him under a rock and less one hand. When Goku says "at your current strength, you could never hope to defeat me", he's just stating what we've already seen: Moro can't threaten Goku in any direct way. And he still couldn't even when he kicked it up a gear and stole Merus's powers.
BWri wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:32 pm
And Goku going this far out of his way to reform anyone is out of character, especially when he knows Moro's resume.
But Goku's not seeking a "magical change of heart", despite what Jaco says (he even says "I know" in response to Jaco's objection); he's seeking an initial show of willingness to change in submitting and turning himself in, which is why he frames Moro's choice as submitting to imprisonment, or death. He's looking for that small step, not a total reformation of character on the spot.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 pm
Vegeta’s battle power didn’t come directly from extermination so that’s a weird comparison.
He spent his whole life exterminating populations at Freeza's behest. Unless he was born with a power level of 18,000 (he wasn't - Broly was stronger at 920), that is most certainly how he became that strong by the time he met Goku. We're not talking about a more 'respectable', 'non-scumbag' person, here. They're both evil terrible threats - that Goku wants to survive and test himself against.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:27 pm
Also Goku knew what he was doing was wrong when it came to Vegeta. He even said it was a selfish request. Also nowhere did he say he was letting Vegeta go because he might turn good some day. He even tells Kuririn that is not the reason. Perhaps that is what Vegeta thought but thats not what Goku said. At the time Goku didn’t consider that he beat Vegeta and he wanted a rematch with him. And at the time he didn’t know there was anyone else as strong as Vegeta.
Firstly, Goku isn't letting Moro go; he's either going back to prison (the outcome Goku wants), or he's getting killed. Secondly, Goku phrases his motivation for sparing Vegeta quite directly in terms of "When I saw him about to die...I thought...what a waste...", and mentions that he was thrilled to be fighting power like that. And that he wants to do it again. He wants that from Moro, too.

Why is this latter instance uniquely 'dumb' or somehow 'uncharacteristic'? I still don't see it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:13 pm

I don't understand all these DB revisionists and their unhealthy passion to make Goku something he is not. Goku giving Moro a senzu bean is not a "mistake." It's a purposeful intention to fulfill Goku's other side; his lust for combat against strong foes.

Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live. After all the atrocities Vegeta has done and the threat he posed to earth.

Namek: The moment Goku returned to Namek, tosses Vegeta a senzu bean. So they could get the rematch on. King Kai told Goku to kill Freeza before he powers up to 100%. Goku rejected Kai, told him this may be the only chance that he gets to fight the strongest scumbag in the universe. After Goku realized Freeza couldn't defeat him in his final form, Goku told him to go and train and return for combat. Didn't even kill him

Cell: Even Vegeta stated Goku was not fighting for the sake of the earth when he was battling Cell at first. He only told Gohan to waste Cell since he was the only one who could do it. Gohan doesn't like fighting he would not have kept Cell in check by fighting him all the time like Goku. Goku didn't have the power to have his way this instance.

Buu: Oh wow, where do we start? Goku purposefully sandbagged SSJ3 from Vegeta, despite knowing their battle would give energy to Majin Buu. Goku broke the Potara against Kid Buu since he wanted a fair fight. Even the Old Kaioshin was furious about this.

Goku letting Moro live is in consistent character here. Keeping strong opponents alive for the sake of battle, not for others. This side does creep in Goku through out the series. So lets not pretend we aren't suppose to see it anymore.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm

]
He spent his whole life exterminating populations at Freeza's behest. Unless he was born with a power level of 18,000 (he wasn't - Broly was stronger at 920), that is most certainly how he became that strong by the time he met Goku. We're not talking about a more 'respectable', 'non-scumbag' person, here. They're both evil terrible threats - that Goku wants to survive and test himself again
He got his battle power from fighting in difficult battles and coming close to death

No one is questioning that Vegeta killed a lot of people (good and bad) while in Freeza’s army but to say he got his powers ONLY from the act of killing is false.

Whereas Moro’s power literally comes from stealing or eating energy from living souls and planets

I am not really comparing how evil one or the other is at the time but to say they gained power in a similar way is false.
Firstly, Goku isn't letting Moro go; he's either going back to prison (the outcome Goku wants), or he's getting killed. Secondly, Goku phrases his motivation for sparing Vegeta quite directly in terms of "When I saw him about to die...I thought...what a waste...", and mentions that he was thrilled to be fighting power like that. And that he wants to do it again. He wants that from Moro, too.

Why is this latter instance uniquely 'dumb' or somehow 'uncharacteristic'? I still don't see it.

I mean in my last post I literally said Goku’s actions with Vegeta at the time was MORE dangerous. But I pointed out to Goku’s perspective at the time Vegeta is ALL there was so it made way more sense to me from a character perspective. And he himself admitted what he was doing was wrong.

I keep bringing up that Goku has other strong people with potential to fight so the need to test Moro is unnecessary. The whole idea is he wants to spare EVERY possible strong fighter as a rival makes no sense to me. And its actually not something he did in the past.

It’s not like other people he recently fought are so far away from Moro. And Goku himself is much stronger than Moro. He was not stronger than Vegeta at the time he let him go. I am not arguing that it’s in Goku’s character to never spare opponents or do something dangerous for the thrill of the fight at times but the Goku who spared Vegeta and Freeza is also not exactly the same Goku and I do believe he knows when it’s too dangerous to give such an evil opponent such a chance now (one who gave them so much continuous trouble until Goku could reach UI and who was shown to have several tricks up his sleeve). And in Moro’s case it’s only the possibility of getting so much stronger with training.

Moreover If Goku didn’t want to kill a helpless Moro that is one thing but he also didn’t need to give him a Senzu. I realize the Senzu is arguably not what gave Moro the upper hand but it did give him more time to think of a way to gain that upper hand again.

And here’s the thing from a story perspective this is going to go nowhere. Moro may be spared now. He may learn a lesson and go back to jail and swear to train to beat Goku. In fact I’d be surprised if that doesn’t happen now after all this. But by the time he reaches the new height that Goku envisions, Goku will be so far beyond Moro. By the next arc Goku will already be moving onto the next greatest threat. Making this whole thing feel unnecessary to me.
Last edited by Kinokima on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:51 pm

Miracles wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:13 pm
I don't understand all these DB revisionists and their unhealthy passion to make Goku something he is not. Goku giving Moro a senzu bean is not a "mistake." It's a purposeful intention to fulfill Goku's other side; his lust for combat against strong foes.

Saiyan Saga: Let Vegeta live. After all the atrocities Vegeta has done and the threat he posed to earth.

Namek: The moment Goku returned to Namek, tosses Vegeta a senzu bean. So they could get the rematch on. King Kai told Goku to kill Freeza before he powers up to 100%. Goku rejected Kai, told him this may be the only chance that he gets to fight the strongest scumbag in the universe. After Goku realized Freeza couldn't defeat him in his final form, Goku told him to go and train and return for combat. Didn't even kill him

Cell: Even Vegeta stated Goku was not fighting for the sake of the earth when he was battling Cell at first. He only told Gohan to waste Cell since he was the only one who could do it. Gohan doesn't like fighting he would not have kept Cell in check by fighting him all the time like Goku. Goku didn't have the power to have his way this instance.

Buu: Oh wow, where do we start? Goku purposefully sandbagged SSJ3 from Vegeta, despite knowing their battle would give energy to Majin Buu. Goku broke the Potara against Kid Buu since he wanted a fair fight. Even the Old Kaioshin was furious about this.

Goku letting Moro live is in consistent character here. Keeping strong opponents alive for the sake of battle, not for others. This side does creep in Goku through out the series. So lets not pretend we aren't suppose to see it anymore.
I think the issue is Goku should have learned from previous instances. Also,
The Vegeta on Namek thing I don't count due to Vegeta also being able to aid in battle agaisnt Frieza
The Frieza thing with King Kai is sure bad but it's not as though Goku had a clear opertunity to kill Frieza. Besides later on he gets his priorities straight and tries the Spirit Bomb
Goku not using SSJ3 is totally reasonable. Him transforming shook the Earth and emitted imense power. Not to mention it's unstable. Him transforming would have awaken Buu. Kid Buu was on par with SSJ3 Goku, and Goku did fight with the intent to kill. With Moro he wants to spare him and stuff that's just imature.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:51 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm
He got his battle power from fighting in difficult battles and coming close to death
No doubt Vegeta came across some tricky planets to exterminate and ended up getting some near-death power boosts, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this power was gained in the process of exterminating native populations. Like Moro exterminated those planets, and in so doing, gained their power. The 'mechanics' of it isn't a precise 1:1, but the comparison of what they both owe their power to - killing others wantonly - is pretty clear.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm
I am not really comparing how evil one or the other is at the time
Then with respect, what are you doing, here? The crux of this particular bit of the exchange was that BWri insisted that Goku 'should' be disgusted by Moro's power because it was built on exterminating billions of people, rather than excited at the prospect it affords him as a potential future challenge. I think, for the reasons I've stated, that this is an unconvincing piece of dichotomising from how Goku has regarded power gained from similarly nefarious actions in the past.

You don't need to point out that there isn't a precise equivalency between the two characters - of that I'm quite aware. However, Goku seeing a fantastic power and perceiving it could be still greater, and not wanting it to go to waste - even when the holder of said power is an apparently incorrigible villain - is entirely characteristic, because we've seen it all before.
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:35 pm
I mean in my last post I literally said Goku’s actions with Vegeta at the time was MORE dangerous. But I pointed out to Goku’s perspective at the time Vegeta is ALL there was so it made way more sense to me from a character perspective.

I keep bringing up that Goku has other strong people with potential to fight so the need to test Moro is unnecessary. The whole idea is he wants to spare EVERY possible rival makes no sense to me. And its actually not something he did in the past.
I do see what you mean up to a point, but Dragon Ball's chiefest tenet - both in-universe and out-of-universe - is that 'There's Always Someone Stronger'. Goku's as aware of that as anyone. No one person is 'all there is', ever, and no one person (or even group of people) is 'enough', either. It's all about the singular drive to push the limits, and that can only be done by nurturing the challenges that present themselves.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:37 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:51 pm
No doubt Vegeta came across some tricky planets to exterminate and ended up getting some near-death power boosts, but let's not lose sight of the fact that this power was gained in the process of exterminating native populations. Like Moro exterminated those planets, and in so doing, gained their power. The 'mechanics' of it isn't a precise 1:1, but the comparison of what they both owe their power to - killing others wantonly - is pretty clear.
Sure he’s a space pirate that exterminated planets not really disputing that but he did fight difficult opponents isn’t that the whole point that Goku was sent to Earth as a child because it was an easy planet to conquer (well until Minus changed that storyline a bit) . Vegeta actually brings up how he learned to fight again in the TOP arcing the Super manga too.

I am not saying Vegeta didn’t kill innocent people but he was still a warrior who fought battles to gain his power. He didn’t “steal that power”

I think you are saying Vegeta became more powerful while doing evil things. That I am not in disagreement with you about. But that’s not what I am saying about the difference how Moro vs Vegeta gained power. Vegeta was still a warrior. And in fact in the first chapter Vegeta wants the dragon balls to wish for immortality so he can fight forever “an eternity of combat” (obviously beating Freeza played a part too)

Goku didn’t just spare Vegeta because he was powerful but because it was the most exciting fight he had up to that point and for all the differences Goku & Vegeta had they shared things beyond power that Goku & Moro just don’t.


I am not really saying sparing Vegeta was better or smarter than it is here but it’s just comes off as way more complex to me than this. Where here it feels like paint by numbers Goku.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:03 am

Probably something gone wrong in the storyboard, forcing the situations.

You got MUI and so you MUST show to readers how good it is by bashing Moro. But this create a problem: the arc can't conclude with that fight alone or there will be many inconsistencies (like Vegeta role).
The MUI duel must be shown, but must somehow stop and Moro MUST use some fusion thing to have Vegeta play any role.
So, the battle should end with Goku win just a round and another should begin. With Moro being again a menace to keep the tension high enough.
Giving him a senzu was the most "logical" thing to stage such scene on a plot building sense.

If Vegeta didn't had any role to play, most probably the senzu thing wasn't here.

To solve this grim situation, a clear declaration of intents by Goku should have been better. 'Cause it's true that Goku will never commit an homicide on purpose, but as someone pointed out Moro isn't a "fighting challenge" and more a negative, impersonal factor, so restoring his strenght was actually pointless.
As silly as it could sound, some line like "I give you a second chance to fight with me with your strenght alone" could have been very better.

Whatever, I've said such behaviour is perfectly fine for Goku, what's probably wrong is HOW TOYO FORCED HIMSELF in such situation and how badly wrote the subsequent dialogues to get out from that situation. Is not a bad behaviour of Goku, is a bad scripting of a scene.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:07 am

The whole sensu debacle certainly feels like a device employed by Toyotaro to get Moro back on his feet and reinstated as a potentially dangerous threat. Goku's reasons within the story for the bean I find questionable myself as Moro didn't need to be fully restored if the intent was for him to be detained and then carted off to a Galactic Patrol prison cell. At the most, Goku should have telepathically contacted Dende and had him make his way over to get Moro stabilised -- with the monster being physically subdued by Goku so that he can't try anything, mind you.

I can't image how or why Goku thinks that allowing Moro to recover and discussing the notion of him training would carry any long-term potential. Moro is supposedly going to be returned to prison, in Goku's mind, without anyone attempting to execute him while allowing him out to train. Does Moro mentally devastate his way through countless Gokus to improve himself like Freeza while in confinement? What gives Goku the idea that Jaco or his superiors would allow this dangerous sociopath out so that he can have a recreational fighting match with the battle obsessed Saiyan?

It's all far-fetched if you ask me. To be more accurate, that's more of a brainstorm. Was Goku actually contemplating the prospect of Moro training or lamenting potential that would remain untapped?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:18 am

The only other thing that come to my mind is that MUI change your mindset and make you quite unreasonable, so MUI Goku simply wanted to bash again Moro at full potential finding it somehow "fun".
Again, even if that's true, is so implicit that's actually wrong to NOT script any line about and a good proofreading should avoid such genre of mistake. I've already experienced the "fill the blank spaces" of the anime, now I think that wasn't a schedule issue at all...
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