"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ZodiacBeast]

Yes, now can this franchise evolve so that MAIN villains can have deeper motivations than just "Hello, I am an evil goat, all I want is to eat people because I am evil, come defeat me heroes as I am clearly an evil monster"?

That's the problem, "deeper motivation", unless the writer (Toyotaro or Toriyama) pulls a 180° and changes how he writes dragon ball then "deeper motivation" will be a dream.

It's not the execution that made Jiren or Zamasu "flop", it's that there was truly nothing to really complain about in DB universe so their "motivation" were reduced to obnoxious rant.
Hence why Zamasu's "ningen" was reduced to a meme and yet I remember that he made multiple good point about human condition and how he didn't want to destroy nature but just the sentient life form.

Or Jiren, with his takes on the importance of power over everything and how deeply traumatized he was by his master's death. It got reduced to some crybaby rant by the community.

I don't see how Zamasu flopped. Jiren, I can see, but not Zamasu. In fact, I watched a video yesterday about the most popular anime villains (i.e. most searched on google) from 2004 to 2020, and Goku Black has consistently been one of the most popular anime villains by far since 2016. He as a character very clearly generated a lot of interest and internet traffic around Dragon Ball. A "flop" villain doesn't do that. It wouldn't even surprise me if Zamasu or Goku Black were brought back for a future movie, as the writers are driven by popularity. If they see that a character is very popular, they will exploit that popularity. I'll link the video if you want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWzpRrA7NAY

The fact that Black, who was introduced only 4 years ago (and his last appearance was also 4 years ago), has as many (if not more) google searches as Frieza and Cell (who have been around for DECADES) is crazy, isn't it?

If people want to reduce Zamasu to a meme character, that's their problem. With Zamasu and Hearts, the writers showed that they want more ambitious villains, that they want villains we can relate to, or anyway we can understand why they are committing villainous acts. In good storytelling, the villain is merely the hero of their own story.

This Moro guy would be more interesting if we knew... ANYTHING about him, really. Why does he have the ability to eat planets? Why did he start eating planets? Is that ability unique to him or to his species as a whole? In fact, why aren't there any other goat people like him? Also, why does he despise life so much? Did something happen to him when he was young that made him hate the creations of the Gods?

Let me remind you that he is the MAIN VILLAIN of the arc. The fact that the main villain has such generic motivations and non-existent background is serious.

It would have been neat if Moro was a previous GoD, or at least a candidate. Maybe he went out of control and fell in love with his job, so he had to be sealed before he destroyed the universe.

There, now he fits in even more to the theme of Super - conflicts with the gods.

[Noah]

So EoZ gets slighty changed right? Oob possesses God Ki AND a prodigious power so Goku decides to train him?

Indeed. Oob is the reincarnation of Majin Boo, so he should be strong as Pure Boo and Pure Boo only.

Sure he can train to improve himself more, but seeing how Goku fought guys like Jiren and Broly that are at mininum 1000x stronger, it doesn't make a slight sense that he would be interested in Oob. So yeah to make this little fella revelant why not shoehorn the concept of Godly Ki? Even though Majin Boo is not a divine creature nor it was created by Gods.

Oh gently caress, Toyotaro.

How I'd love if the final arc of Super borrowed a lot of ideas from the Universal Conflict arc of SDBHeroes:

Spoiler:

This would tie perfectly into the ending of the Tournament of Power arc:

- 17's wish restored the Future timeline, which explains why Fused Zamasu is still alive;
- 17's wish also restored the 6 universes erased by Zeno: Hearts, one of the main villains of the arc, could be a mortal of the erased universes who seeks revenge on Zeno for destroying trillions of life simply because he was bored one day. That is how you write a morally grey villain.
- Why did this villainous group not make their move until the end of the Moro arc? Because they were still gathering members and building their strength, and sense a window of opportunity now that the God hierarchy is distracted by Merus' death.

This arc would succeed so easily that it's writing itself. I don't know why the writers don't push the idea that 17's wish had huge ramifications for the future, because the wording of his wish is objectively ambiguous. "Restore all of the erased universes", he DOES NOT specify the universes "erased at the Tournament of Power". This is super ambiguous.

Also, I swear, if the next arc is a fucking tournament I'm going to scream.

My thoughts exactly, these concepts are way better than this reshashed Cell arc that we got instead.

Funny how a side product like Super DB Heroes has a staff that thinks about more interesting stuff to make a story arc than Toriyama and Toyotaro. The lack of creativity is abudant in those two

[Magnificent Ponta]

So yeah to make this little fella revelant why not shoehorn the concept of Godly Ki? Even though Majin Boo is not a divine creature nor it was created by Gods.

You know that this was explicitly explained in the story arc as the Dai Kaioshin's Godly power, right? You know, the Dai Kaioshin Majin Buu absorbed?

[SupremeKai25]

It would have been neat if Moro was a previous GoD, or at least a candidate. Maybe he went out of control and fell in love with his job, so he had to be sealed before he destroyed the universe.

There, now he fits in even more to the theme of Super - conflicts with the gods.

Oh that would already make him a more intriguing villain. A relatively short backstory is way better than no backstory at all.

Maybe Moro could have been a GoD candidate who sacrificed everything in the hopes of getting the role (his family, his friends, his planet, etc.), but was turned down at the last moment. That would explain his deep hatred for the world laid out by the Gods, and his desire to feast on mortals -- who are creations of the Gods. That would also explain why he sees his own comrades as mere pawns to be consumed for power. A man who lost everything and gained nothing in return will have a hard time forming connections again.

The theme that Moro is meant to be connected to is the idea that "Training > Borrowed power". Unfortunately Toyotaro and Toriyama forgot that that theme was already done in the Future Trunks arc, which makes it redundant. The very existence of Goku Black as a character is built on the idea that shortcuts, like stealing another body and relying entirely on borrowed power, are always worse than rigorous and honest training.

I wonder if Zeno or the grand priest will remove the GoD position from Beerus over Merus's erasure. The next arc could be about finding a replacement or something for universe 7's GoD.

That is definitely what interests me the most. I think that, for the first time, we might see the Grand Priest in a more angry or stressed attitude. He just lost one of his children, a loss that could have easily been avoided had Beerus done his job and stopped Moro in time.

Note that Zeno already wanted to fire him back in the U6 arc. This could be it for poor ol' Beerus. How sad. Nah, not really.

[OrangeBanana]

I wonder if Zeno or the grand priest will remove the GoD position from Beerus over Merus's erasure. The next arc could be about finding a replacement or something for universe 7's GoD.

[Mister_Popo]

I wonder if Zeno or the grand priest will remove the GoD position from Beerus over Merus's erasure. The next arc could be about finding a replacement or something for universe 7's GoD.

It's not completely unthinkable Beerus (even Whis?) and maybe by extention the other Gods simply don't like Goku's games of fighting very powerful foes, because it indirectly caused the erasure of an apprentice angel and it obviously makes the GP restless. Definitely Beerus does not like this at all, because he obviously shits in his pants by the thought of having to justify this together with Whis. Some could very well see this as a threat or at least a major cause of concern for their position.
Goku not finishing off Moro straight after this very big sacrifice was done, may only contribute to this potential reaction.

This is of course complete speculation.
But if there ever could be a scenario written in which Goku has to face the Gods, and/or a new duel Goku-Beerus is evoked, this kinda are the right circumstances for it. Definitely now he has just mastered UI and may be able to face them when they are at full strength.

[obiwan23s]

I'm pretty satisfied with this ending actually. I think my biggest gripe with the arc is that it plays a lot like a "greatest hits" of Dragon Ball plot points. This arc basically combines the Piccolo Daimao, Freeza, Cell and Majin Boo arcs while simultaneously dropping the ball on what made Moro an interesting villain in the first place. He starts out as a magic user that martial arts and Ki attacks don't really work on and by the end of the arc has stolen enough power to function as a traditional raw power brawler. Moro merging with the Earth was a nice wrinkle in the formula, even though they rehashed the plot point from the Boo arc with Goku running out of power and the other characters finding a way to restore it.

In the end, the redemption thread with Vegeta on Namek, training on Yardrat and learning a new technique to bring the Namekians Moro killed back to life was a really awesome part of this arc. People will point back to Vegeta and Goku both not finishing Moro when they had him on the ropes as low points, especially Goku giving him the senzu bean, but looking at the whole rather than the sum of the parts... Moro never reaches a level of power strong enough to necessitate Merus's involvement if Vegeta finished him when he had the chance. Moro never absorbs Merus's hand to get his powers if Goku finished him when he had the chance, meaning Moro never has to merge with the Earth to balance the angel powers within his body. The only thing I'd really change in this chapter is having Goku realize when Merus took down Moro he did it by destroying the crystals, so that must be what they need to do now...rather than Whis just telling him. But maybe Whis has to answer for that in the next chapter, along with how they failed to protect Merus from himself. I'm really interested to see where this goes next, but in my opinion it absolutely has to move the story past the EOZ portion or at least connect to it.

[DiscountDabi]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Moro isn’t dead just yet. Breaking the orb should only get rid or Merus’s power. If Moro 73 gets back up or just Goat Moro gets up and Vegeta just dashes over and kills him, I will be fully satisfied and we can move on to the Grand Priest Stuff.

[GodVegetto91]

I have a sneaking suspicion that Moro isn’t dead just yet. Breaking the orb should only get rid or Merus’s power. If Moro 73 gets back up or just Goat Moro gets up and Vegeta just dashes over and kills him, I will be fully satisfied and we can move on to the Grand Priest Stuff.

That... would actually make my day!

[OLKv3]

So EoZ gets slighty changed right? Oob possesses God Ki AND a prodigious power so Goku decides to train him?

Indeed. Oob is the reincarnation of Majin Boo, so he should be strong as Pure Boo and Pure Boo only.

Sure he can train to improve himself more, but seeing how Goku fought guys like Jiren and Broly that are at mininum 1000x stronger, it doesn't make a slight sense that he would be interested in Oob. So yeah to make this little fella revelant why not shoehorn the concept of Godly Ki? Even though Majin Boo is not a divine creature nor it was created by Gods.

Oh gently caress, Toyotaro.

How I'd love if the final arc of Super borrowed a lot of ideas from the Universal Conflict arc of SDBHeroes:

Spoiler:

This would tie perfectly into the ending of the Tournament of Power arc:

- 17's wish restored the Future timeline, which explains why Fused Zamasu is still alive;
- 17's wish also restored the 6 universes erased by Zeno: Hearts, one of the main villains of the arc, could be a mortal of the erased universes who seeks revenge on Zeno for destroying trillions of life simply because he was bored one day. That is how you write a morally grey villain.
- Why did this villainous group not make their move until the end of the Moro arc? Because they were still gathering members and building their strength, and sense a window of opportunity now that the God hierarchy is distracted by Merus' death.

This arc would succeed so easily that it's writing itself. I don't know why the writers don't push the idea that 17's wish had huge ramifications for the future, because the wording of his wish is objectively ambiguous. "Restore all of the erased universes", he DOES NOT specify the universes "erased at the Tournament of Power". This is super ambiguous.

Also, I swear, if the next arc is a fucking tournament I'm going to scream.

My thoughts exactly, these concepts are way better than this reshashed Cell arc that we got instead.

Funny how a side product like Super DB Heroes has a staff that thinks about more interesting stuff to make a story arc than Toriyama and Toyotaro. The lack of creativity is abudant in those two

Heroes stories are terrible. I'm happy that nonsense is away from the main series

[UpFromTheSkies]

Heroes stories are terrible. I'm happy that nonsense is away from the main series

Yeah, Heroes is over the top even for Dragon Ball, but I enjoy it for what it is and don't have a problem with it as long as it stays in it's own lane and away from Super.

[Grimlock]

Agree. Dragon Ball Super crap should stay away from the games/Heroes. Don't want them to waste time with retellings, tournaments and these mediocre sagas. Let them do the hot topics of the moment (like the Multiverse concept in Marvel/DC) and keep Dragon Balll Super in the safe zone.

[Jinto]

What i hate about the current state of the manga is how Toyotaro keeps stalling the power scaling just to keep everything "under" Beerus level.

[ZodiacBeast]

What i hate about the current state of the manga is how Toyotaro keeps stalling the power scaling just to keep everything "under" Beerus level.

I've always hoped that Goku and Vegeta reaching Beerus' level would be an endgame moment for Super (or at least near the end) because Super/the new era of DB started with Goku vs. Beerus. Adding to this is Goku's mastery of UI, as seen against Moro. Yeah, Goku couldn't just instantly win, but it still lends to the feeling of "where do we go next?".

Fighting against Angel-level opponents, I guess. Meh.

[Jinto]

What i hate about the current state of the manga is how Toyotaro keeps stalling the power scaling just to keep everything "under" Beerus level.

I've always hoped that Goku and Vegeta reaching Beerus' level would be an endgame moment for Super (or at least near the end) because Super/the new era of DB started with Goku vs. Beerus. Adding to this is Goku's mastery of UI, as seen against Moro. Yeah, Goku couldn't just instantly win, but it still lends to the feeling of "where do we go next?".

Fighting against Angel-level opponents, I guess. Meh.

And all of this could have been resolved with Beerus training to achieve UI which double down as character development.

[OLKv3]

What i hate about the current state of the manga is how Toyotaro keeps stalling the power scaling just to keep everything "under" Beerus level.

Beerus was never surpassed. It was just a ton of fans making assumptions.

[Jinto]

What i hate about the current state of the manga is how Toyotaro keeps stalling the power scaling just to keep everything "under" Beerus level.

Beerus was never surpassed. It was just a ton of fans making assumptions.

He was
He is already in the anime
The problem here is not Beerus being more powerful but Toyo constantly and artificially move the goalpost just to make him the endgame.

Beerus is becoming what Zeno already is, an icon of unreachable power and limitless growth, yet he shouldn't be, only Zeno can fulfill that role.

[ZodiacBeast]

Perhaps the next arc or arcs will see Beerus learning/perfecting UI after the GP lights a fire under his ass and makes him start to take his responsibilities seriously.

The upcoming story will definitely have some sort of repercussions and advancement for our favorite Cat-Man.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Agree. Dragon Ball Super crap should stay away from the games/Heroes. Don't want them to waste time with retellings, tournaments and these mediocre sagas. Let them do the hot topics of the moment (like the Multiverse concept in Marvel/DC) and keep Dragon Balll Super in the safe zone.

Heroes and retellings go hand in hand.

[SupremeKai25]

The Universal Conflict arc deserves more than a promotional videogame anime with 10-minutes long episodes. This is all I'm going to say.

I hope Toriyama reboots this arc, and starts working on it with his friends Toyotaro and Toei.