"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Mister_Popo]

The Moro arc will most likely end next chapter, making this 25 chapters long plus the end of chapter 42. This could fit perfectly in a 26 episode anime season if every episode covers one chapter with great cliffhangers at the end.

That sounds about right. I do think there was a lot of padding maybe to have it last so the next arc could be announced at another Jump Festa. Not sure if Toei will cut anything since the movie retellings were 27 episodes and while the exhibition match and recruitment were almost 20 episodes. I guess it depends how involved Toriyama was and how it leads into the next arc.

If they'd choose to bring it as a longer animated arc, i'd prefer a different approach than a straight one-episode-to-one-chapter adaptation.
I'd expand the beginning of the arc (part till Namek), dive more into the past and motives of Moro, his former battles against the Supreme Kais and the Galactic Patrol, and extend the first part of the battle on Namek, which was pretty great.
In the mid part i would redirect more focuss to the training and bound Merus - Goku (as it makes Merus sacrifice more compelling), Vegeta's training on Yardrat and Merus background on becoming an apprentice angel / the angel laws and motives of him becoming a Galactic Patroler ... And a little bit less focuss on the Z-fighters against Moros goons.

All to solve the pacing issues and give a little bit more context to the story. Giving more time to the new characters and their backgrounds would make the finale even more rewarding.

I still think the Moro arc can be rewritten into a movie format too, the plot isn't too complicated, a lot of 'slow content' we saw in the manga would be taken out, but if done right that could solve the pacing issues as well. Altough that's probably not first choice with a lot of people.

[The Undying]

In the mid part i would redirect more focuss to the training and bound Merus - Goku (as it makes Merus sacrifice more compelling)

I didn't particularly have a problem with the Merus-Goku throughline.

A large chunk of Chapter 51, a chunk of 52, a few pages in 53/54, and another sizeable portion of 55 all focus on their training together, exploring what Goku needs to trigger Ultra Instinct and Merus having to resign from being Goku's mentor because of his duties as an Angel. It's about as much time as Vegeta gets, is arguably more substantive than what he gets as far as individual growths go, and hammers home the point of how Merus's role lends to Goku's arc rather than tearjerking the reader over his sacrifice.

Could it be improved with some restructuring? Sure, but you could make that argument for almost anything. This critique doesn't seem as productive to me as tackling the broader story decisions in general.

[SupremeKai25]

I'd expand the beginning of the arc (part till Namek), dive more into the past and motives of Moro, his former battles against the Supreme Kais and the Galactic Patrol, and extend the first part of the battle on Namek, which was pretty great.

That would be the ideal. As it stands now, Moro is a terrible villain with no substance. However, he has some knowledge of the Gods, intel that wouldn't be available to your average lawless scum. That must mean something. Moro could have been an ally of the Gods in the past, but something likely went wrong and he turned on them, resolving to feast on their mortal creations.

Also, when I first saw him as a decrepit old creature, I thought he looked very wise. He would be a much more interesting character if it was revealed that he used to be an ancient ally of the Gods, but found out some kind of truth that shook his beliefs in the divine system and made him turn against the Gods.

Just as the Kais nurture life across the cosmos, Moro could have developed a special ability to devour all life and vegetation, as a way of getting back at the Kais with whom he had a fall-out.

As Toyotaro didn't bother giving him any motivation or backstory, this blank space would be very easy to fill in. You just need a bit of imagination and good understanding of how to write a decent morally grey villain.

[DiscountDabi]

So I’m gonna assume this is how it happened, since it wasn’t exactly explained fully.

So 10 million years ago, Grand Supreme Kai Sacrificed his Godly Power to Seal Moro’s Magic. In some way his Godly Power was still tied to him but he simply didn’t have access to it. That link to that Godly power went to Kid Buu, and when he was destroyed that link was Cut and a bit of magic returned to Moro. I’m assuming the reason all of Moro’s Magic didn’t return is because Uub was reincarnated and that God Power was linked to Buu’s soul and when it was reincarnated the power fully returned to Uub.

It’s very confusing but thats my guess of how this worked. Hopefully we get some kind of explanation.

[Matches Malone]

The way I see it is that the Kai simply couldn't use his powers anymore. When he was absorbed and turned into Fat Buu, Buu also couldn't use those powers. When Buu split and Kid Buu got them, he also couldn't use them. This could be due to their lack of training and intellect. When Buu was reincarnated into Uub, he now has access to them, which is why Goku becomes interested in training him.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, I don't know if this has been pointed out already, but isn't it very suspicious that Moro recognized the divine technique that is Ultra Instinct? That is "classified intel" about the Gods, how does he know about it?

If Moro is by miracle still alive, he should be imprisoned and questioned. He'd be back in his old, decrepit form anyway, so it's not like he'd pose a threat to anyone. If I were a God, I'd be terrified of the fact that a mortal thug somehow acquired such knowledge, and I'd try to investigate further.

Maybe the Grand Priest's summon doesn't have to do with Merus, but with the fact that a mortal (Moro) somehow had intel about Ultra Instinct without having any relationship of any kind with the Angels. Maybe Moro had a secret ally or informant amidst the ranks of the Gods, who knows...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Moro probably realized UI was a divine ability based on the fact that he couldn't sense him normally. When Moro was fighting with Merus, he stated that he couldn't sense him and questioned if he was a deity. Then again, he doesn't seem to think much of Goku and Vegeta going Blue, which should also give off the Godly presence.

[kei17]

It's not just the angle, the panel is cut at exactly the same part as the anime version. Body scratches right above his nipple in both versions, the three face scratches are in the same position too (both cheeks and forehead)

I would really be surprised if this Goku was drawn from a blank page. When you look at them side by side it's almost mirrored with some slight changes like cut blood and obviously the hole scar Moro left on him.

This is nitpicky but I'm also serious

This is not only extremely common but also expected. People can't just make new poses all the time so there's no issue at all in reusing poses, even if they are the same or close.

It would not be a problem if he didn't do it very often, though. I mean, this is like the 50th time for him to get his copy/tracing pointed out. It's kinda surprising that he still needs a reference for such a simple composition.

[emperior]

I haven’t seen others mention it, but I believe Toriyama provided a few corrections this time around.

I think he definitely corrected Uub, but I also think he corrected the shot of Goku with hair highlights and a shot of Beerus when he says he will lend a hand. Those three drawings are just perfect.

Anyways, the art was phenomenal all throughout this chapter but I too am not a big fan of the last Goku thumbs up panel.

[kei17]

Anyways, the art was phenomenal all throughout this chapter but I too am not a big fan of the last Goku thumbs up panel.

I like how Goku gently smiles and doesn't show his teeth in the Buu arc. It shows his mental matureness and self-assurance that match his age. It's sad that in Super, his expressions are rolled back to those from his youth, which weakens his character development and emphasizes his stereotypical innocent, fighting-manic character that I'm already tired of.

[Mister_Popo]

In the mid part i would redirect more focuss to the training and bound Merus - Goku (as it makes Merus sacrifice more compelling)

I didn't particularly have a problem with the Merus-Goku throughline.

A large chunk of Chapter 51, a chunk of 52, a few pages in 53/54, and another sizeable portion of 55 all focus on their training together, exploring what Goku needs to trigger Ultra Instinct and Merus having to resign from being Goku's mentor because of his duties as an Angel. It's about as much time as Vegeta gets, is arguably more substantive than what he gets as far as individual growths go, and hammers home the point of how Merus's role lends to Goku's arc rather than tearjerking the reader over his sacrifice.

Could it be improved with some restructuring? Sure, but you could make that argument for almost anything. This critique doesn't seem as productive to me as tackling the broader story decisions in general.

I personally would have appreciated a little bit more delving into Merus motivation in becoming a GP'er, his background on his apprenticeship as an angel, and his training with Goku. I get your point, his main role was to push Goku beyond his limits to master UI, but, without the necessity of overly sentimental tearjerking here, i didn't felt very involved in what Goku must have felt at that moment when the mentor was gone with whom he had spend months of training with. That was a very critical moment in the arc, that involvement should have been there. In contrast it felt a little underwhelming. Because the bound Goku-Merus could have exploited a little bit more IMO.

Vegeta and his time with the Yardrats could also have been expanded on more.
Be it only because they are intresting creatures after all and a little deeper dive in their lore and how (the training of) Spirit Control works would been intresting. We haven't seen really much of that training.

This while the Z-fighters-fodder-party got the most screentime. Don't get me wrong, those characters deserved their time in the spotlight, but couldn't the accent be slightly different, if they'd chose to adapt it?
Could they be given a more useful role earlier, other than that quick "key figure-wank" at the ending?

This can all be subjective, if you felt this aspect otherwise, i'm okay with that.

But i'm pretty confident for myself a one episode-per-chapter adaptation is not the way to go here.

[Psajdak]

I didn't like that Goku killed off Moro because I never like that Goku gets the win again. At least with Super, Freeza and Moro are the only villains to die. Meanwhile Zamasu was erased by Zeno and the other characters such as Broly, Jiren, Hit, and Beerus are not villains.

Goku is the main character of Dragon Ball.

[Xeogran]

Moro and Hearts were defeated both in the same way through a visible crystal on their bodies being shattered. Just a fun observation of mine.

[MajinMan]

For all the shit I’ve given to the second half of this arc, I thought the latest chapter was pretty solid. Setting up Oob and using Vegeta’s new technique in a different way was cool. I still think Moro is a pretty shitty villain. His “Earth” form is incredibly silly looking and dumb. Next chapter should be wrapping up the loose ends, and we might finally get a sneak peek at the next arc.

[DiscountDabi]

My only problem with this chapter is Beerus still being above Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku. He seemed so confident in his own ability, and its getting hard to believe that if Full Power Beerus is still above MUI that he could have gotten any amount of enjoyment out of his fight in Battle of Gods.

[sangofe]

If you know please quote me so I can go directly to your reply and not see all the spoilers floating around.

We really don't but there's a big chance Beerus will finally play a major role again. Also the chapter is officially out, why don't you just read it now?

I'm one of those who's hoping all this will be animated and would like to be surprised. Tell me when it's out, please.

[Chuquita]

Spoiler:

I'm so happy we've made it to the end of the arc! (Just watch Moro still be alive next chapter somehow though). Two years was way too long to spend on Moro with how much of a breading to meat ratio it had imo. The beginning was so promising in terms of something fresh and then it made that hard turn into being a send-up of the Cell arc with bits of King Piccolo and Freeza tossed in for good measure. I loved the cover art for volumes 10, 11, and 14; going deeper into that sci-fi adventure mode would've been so much more fun for me (as would the character of Moro himself if he had had some Toriyama-style quirk about his personality). I wish we knew how the behind-the-scenes went for this arc; were they just throwing stuff at the wall until they found something that stuck? Was Toyotaro originally way more ambitious with his ideas about this arc only to have them walked back by someone higher up at Shueisha who wanted them to play it safe instead? I remember at the beginning it looked like Buu was going to play a bigger role. The climax definitely had an air of exciting spectacle to it (moreso had I not read about that giant ki Goku not being a brand new idea but borrowed from a move in Naruto), but the whole arc--once they landed on Planet Namek anyway--felt too much like an old 90's Toei Z movie to me. The rehashes, nods and winks started and never really fully stopped; it was tiring and disappointing (Was the Moro arc one of the suggested ideas for a dbs movie that was rejected in favor of Brolli and that's why Moro feels so much like a Z movie?). I'm actually really done with the whole gods stuff in general; I want see the next arc go explore somewhere new. It's an impressive feat to have both Goku and Vegeta front and center for this entire arc and yet for the most part bore me since it was played way too straight and rote in a way that lacked the entertaining chemistry the two of them are capable of together. I hope we finally make that timeskip to EoZ next arc. Goku's EoZ dougi is cool; so's Vegeta's EoZ outfit (actually I'm excited about the small possibility to see the whole cast in their EoZ designs). I'm not expecting the anime to be announced next month at Jump Festa, but maybe an announcement that they're planning to eventually do another movie? I dunno; everything's on hiatus or delayed at Toei regarding Super I'm sure. If Toyotaro was forced to stall for time while Shueisha and Toriyama figured out what they wanted to do with Super's anime I hope they've figured it out by now.

[Psajdak]

My only problem with this chapter is Beerus still being above Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku. He seemed so confident in his own ability, and its getting hard to believe that if Full Power Beerus is still above MUI that he could have gotten any amount of enjoyment out of his fight in Battle of Gods.

Beerus isn't a Saiyan, he doesn't enjoy fights as much they do.

Even back in M14 he seemed interested in SSG more to break his boredom, than as a true challenge.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

My only problem with this chapter is Beerus still being above Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku. He seemed so confident in his own ability, and its getting hard to believe that if Full Power Beerus is still above MUI that he could have gotten any amount of enjoyment out of his fight in Battle of Gods.

I've seen some suggest that it could be totally unrelated to Beerus' power.

"I'm in big trouble if the other Gods of Destruction see me do this, so let's make it quick."

Now I'm not sure if the "see me do this" is referring to Beerus doing something out of the ordinary or simply getting rid of a threat. I don't think a GoD destroying a threat would be considered a big deal.

[ChronoTwigger]

I wasn't totally disappointed by the episode itself, reread the whole thing and the impression of rushing gone, in tankobon format the various episodes will surely feel more cohesive in a single long struggle.

My only three concerns.
A: Moro Planet should have been depicted from a large perspective at least in one panel. It looked more like "Moro Hill". Having more drastic changes in the whole setting could have helped figure out the scale of the menace.
B: Goku turn Blue... with such small degree of energy? I mean, probably just Vegeta contribute consistently, but if ZFighters + Dende have enough Ki summed up to unlock a Blue form, something doesn't fit to me. It's also the incite of one of the most ridicule panel in DragonBall history: detail of Goku legs emitting energy. How silly is that panel!?!?
C: It's hard to figure out for me the entire dynamic of Daikaiohshin, Oob, Buu, Majin Buu, all kaioshin and how 'divine ki' was sealed, stripped out, moved around and released again. I think is quite confusing (if not totally messed up) the way it was exposed.

I'm fine with art, there are small issues around but they are perfectly fine, I don't think DB was a realistic manga since the start, I'm expecting a bit of "rubber anatomy" here and there to emphasize a pose/expression. MUCH better this way than a cold 3d videogame.

As tracing/copying/quoting, if you'll ever work in a manga studio, you'll have entire books of references to tap upon (like book of hands poses to trace...), you MUST deliver the panels and every trick is welcome. The same Studio Bird traced their own references the whole time. It's not lazyness, is the urge of completing the panels in time - and such panels were already certified as fitting well.

Enough, let's see what happen next. One entire episode to tell the outcome means there will be some important consequence to tell.