"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:59 pm
The characters that lent their energy to Vegeta were also the same ones who fought him and Nappa in the Saiyan arc. Kind of a nice symbolic touch
I didn't think about that, that's a good analysis. :thumbup:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm

I'm glad they attempted to keep and explain and give reason ( more importantly) as to Uub's significant with EoZ. But it brings some questions along with it.

Just how strong was Dai Kaio in his prime, say, compared to ToP Blue Goku and Vegeta?

How strong is Uub? I didn't like how Uub's power was so vast that it essentially dwarfed everyones, just look at the shock on Vegetas face. Vegeta and Goku have been training their ass's off their entire life for a poor bloke to just wake up 1 morning and realize he's the the Ron Jeremey of ki.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:07 pm

So judging by how Uub showed up and was the resolution to this conflict, in addition to how early the plot point of Pure Buu having all the Daikaioshin's divine power was introduced, it's safe to say Toyotaro had this arc planned out and structured from the start.

That just means his idea of what's interesting or what makes for a good story sucks and needs a lot of refining.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:08 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm
I didn't like how Uub's power was so vast that it essentially dwarfed everyones, just look at the shock on Vegetas face. Vegeta and Goku have been training their ass's off their entire life for a poor bloke to just wake up 1 morning and realize he's the the Ron Jeremey of ki.
I don't think it is a matter of him being stronger, rather than being surprised that he's so strong.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:11 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm
I'm glad they attempted to keep and explain and give reason ( more importantly) as to Uub's significant with EoZ. But it brings some questions along with it.

Just how strong was Dai Kaio in his prime, say, compared to ToP Blue Goku and Vegeta?

How strong is Uub? I didn't like how Uub's power was so vast that it essentially dwarfed everyones, just look at the shock on Vegetas face. Vegeta and Goku have been training their ass's off their entire life for a poor bloke to just wake up 1 morning and realize he's the the Ron Jeremey of ki.
So, about that, it's somewhat inconsistent. When DaiKaioshin fought Moro, he was getting overwhelmed, together with South. This was, supposedly, Prime Moro. But since the Kaioshin had just known of him and met him, then Moro couldn't be at large for that long.

When Moro regained his full power and magic and left Namek triumphant, Vegeta mentioned that they could still defeat him with Super Saiyan Blue - the problem is that they had no way to counter Moro's energy absorption.

That should indicate that Dai Kaioshin, at his strongest, was somewhat weaker than Goku and Vegeta in Blue. Since they were stronger than Moro who, at that point, should have the power he exhibited against the Kaioshins (because remember, when he got on Earth, he made a point to state to Goku he obtained power that surpasses the very gods after his crusade. Since he made a point to state he obtained it, this is not really normal for him. I think it's fair to say that Moro, at that point, was at the strongest he ever have been in his life... before fusing with 7-3, of course).

Buuuuuuuuuuuut this is contradicted when Uub's contribution was more then enough to give Goku another shot at Ultra Instinct and even baffle Vegeta... And that was Uub who inherited the Dai Kaioshin's power. Said power which, mind you, was mostly sacrificed in order to seal Moro's magic. A sacrifice that lasted millions of years, since it made Dai Kaioshin weak enough to be defeated and absorbed by Buu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:26 pm

ssj3kakarot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm
I'm glad they attempted to keep and explain and give reason ( more importantly) as to Uub's significant with EoZ. But it brings some questions along with it.

Just how strong was Dai Kaio in his prime, say, compared to ToP Blue Goku and Vegeta?

How strong is Uub? I didn't like how Uub's power was so vast that it essentially dwarfed everyones, just look at the shock on Vegetas face. Vegeta and Goku have been training their ass's off their entire life for a poor bloke to just wake up 1 morning and realize he's the the Ron Jeremey of ki.
Well, Uub will not be able to defeat base Goku in a couple of years from now, so I think his contribution only hints at an immense potential and not at an actual accessible power. Not now, not when EoZ occurs. Enough for Goku actually wanting to train him in the future.

It does retcon(or updates) Uub's actual pool of power that interests Goku. Before it was just Buu's reencarnation, now it's DKS's god ki.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:28 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:50 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:42 am
Nobody bothers that buu is apart "again" ... just to give participation to a child who should be almost a baby and who has not done anything at all arc... just to help and be decisive giving some energy What is he still supposed to have ... and for some absurd reason is it enough to give goku enough energy?

yes of course .. brilliant writing without a doubt ....

on the positive side everything was pretty good goku giant aura I loved it ... although it lasted so little
You realize this is the same child Goku is incredibly excited about at the end of Dragon Ball right? A character whose strength he would still be excited about after having ascended to various godly tiers and mastering Ultra Instinct. Well now there's a very good reason why that would still be the case.
I realize that he could only face goku in "base form" at a competent level ... and only did it being "furious" could he release his power ...

There is a big difference in having "potential" that can be show in the future and another is having a lot of power so that Goku recovers his ultra instinct something that seems that they is not understanding it feels like a "fanservice" resource

if they had already mentioned in the manga that uub could have the power of the gods ... what is the need to make it appear? they really only cause errors that collide with continuity

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:51 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:08 pm
ssj3kakarot wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm
I didn't like how Uub's power was so vast that it essentially dwarfed everyones, just look at the shock on Vegetas face. Vegeta and Goku have been training their ass's off their entire life for a poor bloke to just wake up 1 morning and realize he's the the Ron Jeremey of ki.
I don't think it is a matter of him being stronger, rather than being surprised that he's so strong.
I'm sure you are correct. It comes off as though he is stronger, only because the many contributed only gave Goku his Blue form,and Uub, went above and WAY beyond by himself. The argument for that is that Vegeta and company were massively drained. They even give Vegeta the line of saying he will contribute energy too, yet Uub was able to surpass that.

It's a problem, to me anyways, because there seems to be people who have Divine/God ki, and those that don't. Where we were told that forms like SSG and SSB had God ki. Divine/God ki almost seem to be interchangeable, but IF that were the case, then Vegeta should have enough Ki to boost Goku himself. Anyways, a minor point that i didnt like.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:09 pm

Maybe in a later arc.....i sure hope they finally get to Goku training Uub, see him teach him how to fight, maybe show him how to do the kaio-ken, kamehameha, genki dama, etc and then teach him how to further elevate his strength with god ki training.

I think that needs to happen. and then go into another arc where we see Uub in action fighting along side the Z FIghters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:14 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:16 am
It's also worth noting that a great deal of narrative effort has been expended on pointing out that becoming strong and fighting isn't what a Kaioshin is supposed to do. Universe 7's Dai Kaioshin may be a naturally-occurring outlier until he uses most of his power in containing Moro, but his power is sort of meaningless to his office and function, which I'd guess is why there aren't more Shin-jin like that.
It might actually make sense. Beerus is an incredibly powerful God of Destruction, yet also incredibly lazy. It's possible the Grand Supreme Kai became so power as to effectively take both roles as a creator deity who also handles threats to the universe.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Thani wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:11 pm
When Moro regained his full power and magic and left Namek triumphant, Vegeta mentioned that they could still defeat him with Super Saiyan Blue - the problem is that they had no way to counter Moro's energy absorption.
The story makes a distinction between Moro's full magic power and his full physical power. It's not until Chapter 51 that he mentions his physical recovery is complete (when he loses the facial hair, basically) although he does grow stronger still when he continues to consume planets during the time gap.

So Dai Kaioshin was probably stronger than complete Blue.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Lionel wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:50 pm
It's odd how Beerus is still portrayed as a game changing asset despite the inroads Goku has made in ascending not to the hierarchy of the Hakaishin but angels. Has he been surreptitiously training all this time and we weren't aware of it? Has he always been in the lower segment of angel tier? It's evident that Toyotaro still wants us to perceive Beerus as a gleaming benchmark for whom Goku should aspire for.


I don't think it's that odd in the sense ...
Originally Beerus in the BOG-movie was said to only use 70% of his true strength.
In Super he was confirmed to even be a lot stronger.
Narratively speaking, this should have had a reason.
Why make Beerus a lot stronger than he was originally perceived if the writers did not have a potential role for him in a future battle, when the power levels were to be much higher?

Nobody knows exactly how strong he is. But within this narrative context: what sense does it make that Goku surpasses him behind the scenes, without showing us? It's more than probably because Beerus still has to show his true power. I don't expect him to be far weaker than MUI Goku to say the least.

What i still wonder: is Goku really low angel-tier level like Merus now? Is it confirmed?
When he first acquired godly ki, he wasn't even close to defeating a God of Destruction at full power.
There seems to be a difference in acquiring abilities like god-ki and MUI and true absolute strength.
Otherwise all angels and gods would have more or less equal powers as well.

Do we therefore really have confirmation MUI Goku would technically be able to stalemate Merus (if he would still be alive)?
MUI Goku did lose power to Earth Moro when he was fighting him, this while Whis could easily block him with his fingers.
This does not confirm anything, but it might indicate MUI Goku is still miles away from the realm of the angels, which would make sense as Super isn't about to end anytime soon.
We could be low-angel tier now, but Beerus-MUI could very well be a few steps behind that tier as well.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Galan007 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:51 pm

So is the consensus that the full breadth of DaiKaioshin's god ki "regenerated" after the Moro incident(namely when Boo absorbed him), or..?

It was originally stated that DaiKaionshin used up "most of" his godly ki to contain Moro(which implies that he gave up >50% of his power at the very least.) So I'm trying to figure out if Oob only possesses the fraction of god ki that DaiKaioshin still wielded after he imprisoned Moro, or if Oob has DaiKaioshin's 'complete' god ki?

I had initially thought that DaiKaioshin's godly power must have fully regenerated by the time he encountered Boo(which would have subsequently been passed into Oob)... But if DaiKaioshin's god ki was at 100%, then why wouldn't he have just used the same technique that he used on Moro to contain Boo?

However, if the alternative is that Oob just wields the small portion of god ki that DaiKaioshin possessed after containing Moro, then it speaks to how massively powerful a "peak" DaiKaioshin(ie. with ALL of his god ki intact) truly was.

Thoughts?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:04 pm

Galan007 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:51 pm
So is the consensus that the full breadth of DaiKaioshin's god ki "regenerated" after the Moro incident, or..?

It was originally stated that DaiKaionshin used up "most of" his godly ki to contain Moro(which implies that he gave up >50% of his power at the very least.) So I'm trying to figure out if Oob only possesses the fraction of god ki that DaiKaioshin still wielded after he imprisoned Moro, or if Oob has DaiKaioshin's 'complete' god ki?

I had initially thought that DaiKaioshin's godly power must have fully regenerated by the time he encountered Boo(which would have subsequently been passed into Oob)... But if DaiKaioshin's god ki was at 100%, then why wouldn't he have just used the same technique that he used on Moro to contain Boo?

However, if the alternative is that Oob just wields the small portion of god ki that DaiKaioshin possessed after containing Moro, then it speaks to how massively powerful a "peak" DaiKaioshin(ie. with ALL of his god ki intact) truly was.

Thoughts?
I figure Dai Kaioshin's power was maintaining the seal on Moro's power, and so was accordingly diminished as long as that process was going on. When Buu split into his good and evil selves, Dai Kaioshin's power went into the evil one, but couldn't be used by him - it was just 'in' him. And this stayed the case no matter how Buu changed.

When Kid Buu was annihilated, Dai Kaioshin's power went with it, taking the seal off Moro's magic (and thus ending the process), but when Buu's soul was reincarnated as Uub, the full bounds of Dai Kaioshin's power came back with it, waiting to be tapped from within Uub.

That's just how I see it at the moment.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:31 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:59 pm
The characters that lent their energy to Vegeta were also the same ones who fought him and Nappa in the Saiyan arc. Kind of a nice symbolic touch
I didn't think about that, that's a good analysis. :thumbup:
I’d like to take credit for it but I saw someone else mention it on Twitter :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:04 pm
Galan007 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:51 pm
So is the consensus that the full breadth of DaiKaioshin's god ki "regenerated" after the Moro incident, or..?

It was originally stated that DaiKaionshin used up "most of" his godly ki to contain Moro(which implies that he gave up >50% of his power at the very least.) So I'm trying to figure out if Oob only possesses the fraction of god ki that DaiKaioshin still wielded after he imprisoned Moro, or if Oob has DaiKaioshin's 'complete' god ki?

I had initially thought that DaiKaioshin's godly power must have fully regenerated by the time he encountered Boo(which would have subsequently been passed into Oob)... But if DaiKaioshin's god ki was at 100%, then why wouldn't he have just used the same technique that he used on Moro to contain Boo?

However, if the alternative is that Oob just wields the small portion of god ki that DaiKaioshin possessed after containing Moro, then it speaks to how massively powerful a "peak" DaiKaioshin(ie. with ALL of his god ki intact) truly was.

Thoughts?
I figure Dai Kaioshin's power was maintaining the seal on Moro's power, and so was accordingly diminished as long as that process was going on. When Buu split into his good and evil selves, Dai Kaioshin's power went into the evil one, but couldn't be used by him - it was just 'in' him. And this stayed the case no matter how Buu changed.

When Kid Buu was annihilated, Dai Kaioshin's power went with it, taking the seal off Moro's magic (and thus ending the process), but when Buu's soul was reincarnated as Uub, the full bounds of Dai Kaioshin's power came back with it, waiting to be tapped from within Uub.

That's just how I see it at the moment.


That's a nice explaination.
Head canon, but it makes sense.
It was somehow weird how Majin Buu was able to absorb the Grand Supreme Kai in normal strength modus in the first place.
Unless the Supreme Kai could no longer use those powers by that time.

I thought the symbolism of the reincarnation of Uub was written brilliantly in this chapter.
The Grand Surpreme Kai basically used the divine powers of Uub, which once belonged to him and which he needed but didn't have on New Namek to defeat Moro, to yet again defeat his old nemesis. By finding Uub, and by doing so feeding Vegetas Spirit Ball by that amount, so Goku could defeat Moro.
It ties up the ends. At the same time it sets up Uubs relevance for further content.
A seemingly small detail in the chapter, but with great consequences, i really liked how Toyotaro integrated that aspect in the story.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:23 pm

I’m relieved that this arc has (seemingly) come to an end. If you ask me, it was a real drag, and Moro has been a really uninspired villain.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:58 pm

The positive things

-The best thing about this arc may be that it covers a little more depth in its spiritual concept with its characters forming an interesting duality ... it may more newest and the best in comparison in other sagas although it was also tried in FNF so for those reasons ...
FNF <<<< Moro Arc
-Another major contribution would be his participation in the cast of secondary characters in which I will praise Mr Buu, Gohan and Picoolo too in lesser extent to jako and other patrolmen / Warriors z
-in comedy basically ... jako is hilarious ... every dialogue is good
- The scenarios ... the people who said that a fight in space is not interesting really don't know what they're talking about it was quite nice actually my only problem is the repeated scenarios like namek ...
-Very Good Drawing
-about the new characters ironically I only liked the yadrats that have an ugly design ... but they were nice and not irritating

Neutral ...

-more character development for vegeta .... bad and good
-goku masters the UI
-uub with God Ki

negative things
-Moro is a horrible villain ... almost on the level of some of the Z movies
-Most new characters (allies of moro) are forgettable and boring ... because despite the criticism at least jiren, Toppo, Hit, caulifla, kale, kefla and other TOP characters have a considerable amount of fans ..
-The powers of absorption of Moro are incoherent and lose meaning as the story progresses
-Merus is a mary sue and was only created to raise power levels
-Recycling and many references to villains and previous sagas taking away the creativity
-The destruction of the characters of beerus and whis
-Various plot twists and elongations that feel very forced .... (senzu bean)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:59 pm

Lionel wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:50 pm
It's odd how Beerus is still portrayed as a game changing asset despite the inroads Goku has made in ascending not to the hierarchy of the Hakaishin but angels. Has he been surreptitiously training all this time and we weren't aware of it?

This could very well be the case. Basically whenever Goku and Vegeta aren't around there's a good chance he's likely practicing especially after Goku got this far with UI.

Lionel wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:50 pm
Has he always been in the lower segment of angel tier? It's evident that Toyotaro still wants us to perceive Beerus as a gleaming benchmark for whom Goku should aspire for.
I've been thinking for a while now that Merus isn't THAT strong in the angel hierarchy. So I naturally don't put him much higher than Beerus. I also don't think Moro is using all of Merus' power. It's likely too unwieldy for him.
Lionel wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:50 pm
Anyone else here happy that the non-Vegeta Z-Warriors at least got to appear and make some kind of contributory effort? This has to be the greatest amount of participation we've seen from Chaozu since... ever, really. Piccolo served a vital role in voicing the strategy for Vegeta allocating power to Goku. I only wish this level of involvement was more consistent and long term with a planning sheet for the humans.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by pepd » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:19 am

I doubt Tori/Toyo will consider the power reduction that came with Buu's separation and DaiKaiōshin's sealing technique to determine/explain Uub's power, it seems over-complicating it over things that are just the end of the explanation.
I think Uub will just have Buu's power/potential AND god ki (ala Toppo or SSG), is simple and gives him a more fitting power for his role.

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