"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:32 pm

One more thing I just noticed: the whole Moro going to Earth thing is Dende's fault.

When the Macarena brothers arrive on Earth, Piccolo subdues them and procedes to let them go. At the same time, Dende and the rest contact Jaco who explains them the situation. Dende, instead of using his telepathy (mentioned earlier in the chapter when Piccolo can't contact Namek) to tell Piccolo to not let the thugs go, boards Bulma's airplane and they fly all the way there to do this. And when he alerts Piccolo, they have already radio'd Moro. Telepathy would've kept Moro out of the blue.

Also, I never noticed Piccolo has 5 fingers in DBS.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:57 pm

I don't know if anyone's pointed this out.

But Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha and Chaozu all give VEGETA their energy.

No Roshi or new characters.

The people who Vegeta ordered the execution while they defended earth now entrust him with their power to help them defend it.
It wasn't totally belaboured it was almost subtle with everything going on.

Really neat little scene and shows how far these characters have all come.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:14 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 pm
- Moro taking 3 days to gather the DB, while G&V are out seems too much. He is sooo much stronger than Freeza, can sense the DBs, so how come?

- DKS says Buu let him use his original form only to fight Moro. What Buu could he referring to? the Fat one that is essentialy made of him or the actual Kid Buu -or the pink flubber thing he is made of- that lies inside of him?
1) Moro doesn't gain the ability to sense the Dragon Balls until near the end of those three days. We see the panels where it happens, as he notices he can sense a ball in one of the houses Cranberri isn't currently searching. Prior to that, he's tracking down villages with Cranberri and having him search the emptied villages by hand.

As soon as he can sense them, he and Cranberri immediately head back for the ball Muri had hidden, leading to the next series of fights with Goku, Vegeta, Merus and Boo.

2) ? I'm not sure how to read this question. It seems like it should be obvious he's referring to the current, fat Majin Boo, whose subconscious he usually slumbers inside.
TobyS wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:57 pm
I don't know if anyone's pointed this out.

But Gohan, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamcha and Chaozu all give VEGETA their energy.

No Roshi or new characters.

The people who Vegeta ordered the execution while they defended earth now entrust him with their power to help them defend it.
It wasn't totally belaboured it was almost subtle with everything going on.

Really neat little scene and shows how far these characters have all come.
This is the first time I've felt positively about the decision to spend time on those characters' fights. If the endgame was to get them in a spot where they could all give energy to Vegeta to help complete his arc, I feel a bit more warmly toward the chapters spent on them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:20 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 pm
- Apparently, Moro never encountered strong guys like G&V in his time, confirming that the DKS was below post-ToP SSB level even before losing most of his power stealing Moro's magic.
I'm not sure this is accurate either. Moro says beings like them didn't exist in his era, but then immediately follows that up by saying Dai Kaioshin (a god) was the only one who stood in his way. Later on, he's genuinely surprised to learn how much Dai Kaioshin's power had diminished since fighting him in the past, and says that he doesn't need to "fear" him anymore.

Again, while nothing concretely divulges prime Dai Kaioshin's exact level of power, we can infer that it was enough to worry prime Moro, who should have been well above the Blue forms based on his physical recovery in the modern timeframe.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:23 am

MCDaveG wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:28 am
Nice! Now, let's go over the Tournament at the End of Z finally :) I want some Goku and Uub adventures...
But really, where can Dragon Ball really go next? Z with the epilogue in manga was pretty much done... Super added so much, manga included, that now I have really this feeling that everything was done. And GT is kinda like Sequel Trilogy of Star Wars.
That's what I was thinking as well. Some fans act like it's guaranteed to continue but I'm curious what actual ideas they hope to see. The original manga along with many other successful series ended while they were still successful. The goal is to tell a story not milk their series until they exhaust every possible idea they could come up with. We've also gotten so much fan service with most popular characters returning and callbacks that there probably isn't much left that hasn't been referenced.

I really think fans should wait to see what happens in the next arc before getting their hopes up that it'll continue past EoZ. Most suggestions I hear are only a slight variation of what we've seen already. I think there could still be some original ideas but expecting such a long running series to keep churning out new sagas and escalating for years to come is unlikely in my opinion.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ChronoTwigger » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:25 pm

Skar wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:23 am
The goal is to tell a story not milk their series until they exhaust every possible idea they could come up with.
Yeah.
That's exactly japanese producers main issue. They are so focused on the goal of telling stories...
"Hey Katsumoto-san, we need to stop milking our series, the goal is to tell stories!"
"WTF Shinotama-san, you should have told me TWENTYFIVE YEARS AGO, the moment we struggled to milk DragonBall more and we made broken time travelers, cheap SSJ, Buu and now I feel so guilty."
"SHUT UP! I have one idea to continue Saint Seiya again! Listen: an highschool for saints!"
"Gureto! Let's continue! In the meanwhile I'll reach for the merchandize staff and see what puppets they come by!"
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by precita » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:35 pm

I imagine Super will end again when Toriyama just gets bored of the franchise again or can't think of anything new. If they continue the manga without him we'll just be back in GT territory again and I don't think we need a repeat of that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:07 pm

Cipher wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:14 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 pm
- Moro taking 3 days to gather the DB, while G&V are out seems too much. He is sooo much stronger than Freeza, can sense the DBs, so how come?

- DKS says Buu let him use his original form only to fight Moro. What Buu could he referring to? the Fat one that is essentialy made of him or the actual Kid Buu -or the pink flubber thing he is made of- that lies inside of him?
1) Moro doesn't gain the ability to sense the Dragon Balls until near the end of those three days. We see the panels where it happens, as he notices he can sense a ball in one of the houses Cranberri isn't currently searching. Prior to that, he's tracking down villages with Cranberri and having him search the emptied villages by hand.

As soon as he can sense them, he and Cranberri immediately head back for the ball Muri had hidden, leading to the next series of fights with Goku, Vegeta, Merus and Boo.

2) ? I'm not sure how to read this question. It seems like it should be obvious he's referring to the current, fat Majin Boo, whose subconscious he usually slumbers inside.
Oh the first one makes sense. Thanks.

The second one I don't get. I was under the impression that Fat Buu is a good little fella because of the Dai? and that if you remove that, you'd get the evil Buu like before, because Buu has no mind, according to Super Buu.

or there's Fat Buu and the Dai? two good fat guys? if we remove the Dai, we'd still get Fat Buu?
The Undying wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:20 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:52 pm
- Apparently, Moro never encountered strong guys like G&V in his time, confirming that the DKS was below post-ToP SSB level even before losing most of his power stealing Moro's magic.
I'm not sure this is accurate either. Moro says beings like them didn't exist in his era, but then immediately follows that up by saying Dai Kaioshin (a god) was the only one who stood in his way. Later on, he's genuinely surprised to learn how much Dai Kaioshin's power had diminished since fighting him in the past, and says that he doesn't need to "fear" him anymore.

Again, while nothing concretely divulges prime Dai Kaioshin's exact level of power, we can infer that it was enough to worry prime Moro, who should have been well above the Blue forms based on his physical recovery in the modern timeframe.
Yeah, but Moro also says that the Dai stood in his way because he stole his power. As seen in chapter 43 where the gods admit they can't win and steal his magic. So the Dai wasn't strong enough to take Moro, while Goku and Vegeta are confident that SSB would get the job done, as expressed in chapter 49.

Moro's comment is about the loss of that divine power that once sealed his magic. He never feared his strenght -back then the fight was going Moro's way- but his Kai Kai Matoru.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OrangeBanana » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:16 pm

Super might end at the end of Z. It would be great also if the next series afterwards made Uub the main character and introduced a whole new cast of characters, while still keeping the older cast in a sort of background role as there isn't much you can do with them anymore I feel. Goku could advance as a character and after obtaining the pinnacle of his strength at the end of super lets say, he decides to train Uub who develops his own rivals, enemies and friends.

This is probably a dumb idea, but I think it would breathe new life into dragon ball, there is also the possibility that it could ruin it but then again that latter point really boils down to how Toyo and Toriyama decide to write these characters.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:07 pm
So the Dai wasn't strong enough to take Moro, while Goku and Vegeta are confident that SSB would get the job done, as expressed in chapter 49.
They were confident, but again, they weren't fighting Moro in his prime at that point. Chapter 51 is when he's fully restored physically (as said by the goat himself) and Kai Kai Matoru was established to have been directly tied to Dai Kaioshin's godly power. He was weaker than prime Moro, but also had a technique strong enough to have Moro sweating the idea of having his powers sealed away again.

It's all rather ambiguous because the story never draws any hard conclusions about Dai Kaioshin's top strength. Even now, we're just inferring it from other facts. I think there's enough wiggle room to put him slightly above Blue if people want to take that avenue, though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:52 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:07 pm
The second one I don't get. I was under the impression that Fat Buu is a good little fella because of the Dai? and that if you remove that, you'd get the evil Buu like before, because Buu has no mind, according to Super Buu.

or there's Fat Buu and the Dai? two good fat guys? if we remove the Dai, we'd still get Fat Buu?
I don’t think the idea is that the Grand Kaioshin literally leaves Boo’s body. Rather, his consciousness comes to the fore, with a bodily transformation to match. (Boo’s a natural shapeshifter, after all.) When his role is done, his goes dormant inside Boo’s subconscious again. They’re trading places while still sharing a body.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:02 pm

So Now that the arc is over, I think we as a community need to take a step back and ask how we got from this:

https://ibb.co/WDtzTrw

To this:

https://ibb.co/m8WDg1x

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:15 pm

Prime Moro (prior to his planet eating spree) is a hard one to get down. South Kaioshin said they'd be helpless if his power continued to increase, but the magic was the part that really stood out. Once Dai Kaioshin sealed his magic, he was unable to fight back. The sequence makes it seem like Moro would be pretty ineffective without it.
DiscountDabi wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:02 pm
So Now that the arc is over, I think we as a community need to take a step back and ask how we got from this
I hate how ugly and silly Moro looked when he merged with the planet. Made the ending unsatisfying to me, personally.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:19 pm

That's a pretty disingenuous comparison. Reminds me of the usual comparisons of a key animation frame from an old 90s film vs. an in-betweener from a Super episode, but in this case, you're comparing a major, intentional-composition, chapter-ending, full-page frame to... a little panel from another chapter.

Yes, the villain went through a bunch of changes. Is that what you're looking to discuss, though? What about his changes and transformations? What about the events that brought us between those two points?

You gotta give something here.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:46 pm

Isn't that kind of the point? Moro used to look so ominous and conniving, but once he merged with the Earth he gradually lost his sanity (not that there was much to lose to begin with really), and that's why in the final chapter he looks like a horrid, almost goofy-looking monster. I'm sure there are shots of Frieza, Cell, and Buu looking stupid/goofy too once they bulked up and started losing their composure.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:53 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:02 pm
So Now that the arc is over, I think we as a community need to take a step back and ask how we got from this:

https://ibb.co/WDtzTrw

To this:

https://ibb.co/m8WDg1x
To me, the answer is:

1. Through Moro's inability to moderate his own appetites; and
2. Given Point 1, Moro's lack of a contingency plan for succeeding beyond his wildest dreams.

It seems a fitting (if not exactly original) case of a villain being undone by his own vices. He's ruined by his own appetites, and they destroy him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Nov 24, 2020 3:56 pm

Its less about composition and more about how we went from a seemingly competent menacing Villain with a pretty original and intimidating character design, to a mostly humanoid face sticking out of the earth seemingly lost all sense of himself and by Vegeta’s own admission has gone entirely insane with power to the point where he only has 3 coherent sentences asside laughing.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:00 pm
Personally Moro's best form BY FAR was his "Angel 7-3 fusion" form:
Very regal/clean-looking design. The white fur is a clever detail too. It's a shame that this form lasted for... what? A single chapter? I think this should have been his final form instead of the weird Earth blob, but oh well.
While I get where you’re coming from, I still think that Moro at his best was in his Young Goat Form. It stayed Consistent with his prior appearances and had a very unique look to him.
Last edited by DiscountDabi on Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:00 pm

Personally Moro's best form BY FAR was his "Angel 7-3 fusion" form:
Image

Very regal/clean-looking design. The white fur is a clever detail too. It's a shame that this form lasted for... what? A single chapter? I think this should have been his final form instead of the weird Earth blob, but oh well.
They take what they want by savagery and force. Their so-called society is based on nothing else. They possess neither justice nor order... They were gifted with life, brains capable of wisdom, yet they waste them completely. Should these gifts not be taken back?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:43 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:00 pm
Personally Moro's best form BY FAR was his "Angel 7-3 fusion" form:
Image

Very regal/clean-looking design. The white fur is a clever detail too. It's a shame that this form lasted for... what? A single chapter? I think this should have been his final form instead of the weird Earth blob, but oh well.
Earth blob saved him IMO. He shouldn't look clean I think he needs that goat mouth but the Earth blob was new and exciting.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:49 pm

Amazingly, I felt kind of sorry for Moro after he merged with the planet and lost his mind. Like his brain just got FUBARed. After his initial Seven-Three transformation, nothing really went right for him, did it? Everything he did prolonged his inevitable defeat. He absorbs Ultra Instinct? He's slowly crippled by the technique he wasn't ready for. He becomes one with Earth? He goes insane and becomes a ticking time bomb. The Tragedy of Goat-Man.
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