"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:46 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:24 pm
It would be cool if Granola is someone uses high techology for power. He may be weak on his own, but has many high tech gadgets to make him stronger. That's something that I always wanted for a DB villain.
So basically like Android 17 and 18 who started out as weak random human thugs?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:50 pm

For all it's worth, Oatmeal may even be a 'robotic' companion to Granola, like Ahms was to Sealas.

And since this arc will maintain some connection to the Galactic Patrol, let me say it as a wish. Make Sealas canon. Such an epic design and a lot of potential imo. He reminds me of a Qui Gon Jin character for the galactic patrol, if any star wars fans get the idea . :wink:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:06 pm

Random observation but there is a small image of Vegeta and Irico chatting on page 20. They actually did spend a considerable amount of time together on Yadrat. I like that little attention to detail.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:10 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:01 pm
Can someone who is more technically inclined when it comes to editing do a color version of Granola’s full body shot from the Hallway.
I'd keep an eye on Deviantart. Here's one with low-lighting: https://www.deviantart.com/sebasforever ... -864636979

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm

Why didn't the other Z fighters get medals?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:10 pm

omaro34 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Why didn't the other Z fighters get medals?
Whomst? :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DevilKing99 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:32 pm
Xeogran wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:28 pm
batistabus wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:42 pm
Did Whis foresee this outcome? "I certainly did not expect Merus to violate our angel laws" my ass. I'm guessing this is probably the last we'll hear about this, but I'm watching you, Whis...
Whis is such a 4D Chess Character I wouldn't be surprised that half of DBS was his planning. He takes amusement in Beerus being punished, so maybe he has some shady intentions.
Anyone who wants to make Beerus suffer is a good guy.

Do not forget the billions of innocent lives that were killed by Majin Buu and Moro because Beerus could not do his damn job.
Do people forget Beerus had 2+ months to kill Moro and did nothing about it? I seeing people suggest Beerus fight Goku over this when Beerus over 2 months to kill Moro.

I mean Champa his brother got angry over Frost being evil, he took his power away from him in U6 and gave it back to Frost if he fights in the top arc.

Belmod actively supports a universe sized Superhero organization in U11.

All of the top 4 gods work with the supreme Kais to better their universes.

Why are people feeling sorry for Beerus when he on purpose failed to do his job for 2+ months?

I even like Beerus, but he's not doing his damn job and deserves to be punished, it's common logic, is there any job out there you won't get for if you don't do it?

All Shin and Beerus have to do is play with Zeno for a little bit then they are fine and trillions of people in U7 are dead because there of incompetence for 2+ months with Moro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DevilKing99 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:30 pm

omaro34 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Why didn't the other Z fighters get medals?
Sadly not important enough.

I don't know why anybody wants anybody to join the Z fighters everybody who joins becomes irrelevant to the plot. Just look at 17, no MVP 17 moments throughout this entire arc. and he was not even shown for a second in the Broly movie and he was not even shown giving his energy to Goku for the UI avatar thing.

When you become a Z fighter, you pretty much sign a license to be irrelevant in the future.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:48 pm

DevilKing99 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:30 pm
omaro34 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:12 pm
Why didn't the other Z fighters get medals?
Sadly not important enough.

I don't know why anybody wants anybody to join the Z fighters everybody who joins becomes irrelevant to the plot. Just look at 17, no MVP 17 moments throughout this entire arc. and he was not even shown for a second in the Broly movie and he was not even shown giving his energy to Goku for the UI avatar thing.

When you become a Z fighter, you pretty much sign a license to be irrelevant in the future.
The reason why 17 and 18 were not shown given energy to Goku is because the people who did fought Vegeta in the Saiyan arc. It was meant to be symbolic

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:03 pm

Expectations for the Survivor Granolah Arc:

None. I seriously have no idea what this'll be about, how long it'll go on for, or whether I'm even going to like it, but that's what makes it exciting.

It's one thing to be mildly disappointed we're not exploring EoZ, but people acting like it spells doom for the series seem to forget that's where Toriyama wanted to end Dragon Ball. While I wouldn't so much mind an arc set during that era myself, I also feel it's neither likely nor particularly necessary. You can always move on if you're really that bothered by Super's premise.

If Granolah's design came from Toyotaro, which appears to be the case, it's easily his most Toriyama-esque one yet. Gives me strong Dragon Quest vibes with hints of Sand Land, Kintoki and Chrono Trigger. Very cool. Not seeing a resemblance to Hearts, but I guess a lot of fans aren't familiar with Toriyama's work outside of Dragon Ball and so will feel more inclined to compare everything to Toei's characters. I digress. Looks like he could be a fun villain(?), though it's too early to tell.

I don't think OG73-i is necessarily going to be heavily involved. Thus far, he's just been an asset and power source for other bad guys. But who knows?

Thoughts on the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc:

After re-reading the entire thing to make sure I wasn't taking stuff out of context, my impressions haven't radically changed from when these chapters were initially serialized in V Jump. I'd encourage everyone else to do the same, however, since a lot of "critiques" in this thread have been pretty unfounded.

I thought it was okay. By far the worst story in the manga thanks to its waffling execution and severe padding, but adequate enough.

Goku and Vegeta's subplots were both handled spectacularly. With Goku, you're getting the mystery behind Merus, a growing student-mentor relationship facilitated by Goku's own curiosity, Merus's internal conflict between duty and justice, and the method of conquering one's emotions to master Ultra Instinct. With Vegeta, you're getting a previously redeemed villain facing down past atrocities, swallowing his pride on training independently in order to fix them, and confronting a sort of antithesis in Moro. Vegeta's grown more selfless at this point in life, embodying his use of Forced Spirit Fission to restore Namek, but Goku remains as self-serving as ever, embodying what he does while in Migatte no Goku'i, the "secret of selfishness". Both of these elements build throughout the story and intersect in the climax. Almost everything that revolves around their character threads stresses the importance of earning or bestowing, rather than stealing from others, which neatly ties everything into central subtext for the arc. It's damn good stuff and I think it continues to illustrate Toyotaro's commitment to characterization, themes, and story crafting.

Alas, Moro is sadly undercooked. Say what you must about his design and appeal, but I liked what he brought to the table when his role became evident. His personality and absorption magic both make him a good obstacle for Goku and Vegeta, presenting problems they couldn't just resolve by getting stronger. Likewise, Ultra Instinct and Forced Spirit Fission aren't your typical power-ups. It's a shame, then, that very little of it matters through much of the final fight because the climax doesn't stick to these concepts, at least consistently. A villain that once relies on magic and tricky maneuvers absorbs Seven-Three to become a generic Cell-like braggart. What's once an implied mystery about Moro's "ideal universe" is randomly forgotten about and never mentioned again. Even having his plans become undone by his own hubris, while technically fitting, feels too similar to approaches the series already took. DB villains don't necessarily need to be "deep" or "complex" - DB itself is never that pretentious - but they need to serve the arc and its themes in ways that ideally make them stand apart from prior foes. Moro doesn't always do this effectively, however, and feels underwhelming as a result.

Still, nothing's perfect. Were the arc's length shaved to accommodate its shorter (let's be honest) plot, I would have enjoyed it more than I actually did. I complained a lot about the pacing, but my biggest problem is the lack of any strong throughline for its own cast outside of its three most important characters. For comparison's sake, the Boo arc constantly eschewed expectations and shifted focus between several heroes, but also spent a lot time developing said heroes and having them push the story forward (whether to their advantage or their own folly) ultimately defeating Boo with their combined energy in Genki Dama. The Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc, in contrast, does exactly what people routinely (and falsely) accuse the Boo arc of doing -- it makes almost everyone involved irrelevant. "Dai Booshin" does nothing until he's suddenly needed during the climax, but earlier chapters have the audacity to pretend he's worthy of expansive screentime. Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, etc. are haphazardly thrown into the middle of the plot so Toyotaro can mindlessly placate people wanting pointless spotlights dedicated to capturing random henchmen. What even is this writing? Honestly, I don't even remember most of these mooks' names. There's too much filler here, too much inconsequential fluff, too much aggressively wasting the reader's time.

I'd say that's exactly why the pacing is bad, actually. It's not just slow, it wants to convince you a lot of things happen when nothing happens. It's as long as one of the "Z" arcs only because the writers forced it to be, not because they were letting events flow organically. You can literally remove multiple 45-page-length chapters without losing anything too substantial in the process, not to mention Moro's third wish reeks of being an excuse to insert pandering fanservice where it wasn't needed. It just begs the question as to why DB's legacy cast should have been involved at all if there wasn't going to be a real undercurrent to them. This is miles below the Super manga's usual standards. It's all so far beneath Toyotaro and Toriyama, and if it persists in future story arcs, it could drastically affect my enjoyment of the manga going forward.

Also, yeah, let's address the elephant in the room. The arc is certainly a Z's greatest hits kind of romp with bits and pieces of iconic character beats thrown in, which would surely explain why it lacked that feeling of "newness" for most readers, and I don't doubt it comes entirely from Toyotaro's influence. There's a number of clear throwbacks in the story and not just the art, some of which are used pretty cleverly for juxtaposition (it's actually neat how Ultra Instinct calls back to Super Saiyan's introduction just to show how intrinsically different it is), some of which aren't throwbacks at all because people read into all this way too much, and some of which are used poorly because they either don't reflect anything more than a surface-level grasp of the original material or just feel repetitious in general. On the whole, I feel ambivalent about it. Calling back to "them good ol days" is a bit much, and perhaps done a bit too often, but as long as it's not repeated ad nauseam in the future I'm willing to let it slide. Previous arcs in the manga all felt more novel than whatever this one was doing, art references aside. It's just a one-time gimmick, I guess/hope.

The gags are mostly top notch when they do appear, but I anticipated nothing less from the manga. We started with the Oracle Fish... fishing, and ended with Zeno's attendants going on vacay while Beerus and Shin get turned into playthings for being shit at their jobs. Perfect. If you're not enjoying these on at least some level, why are you even reading DB?

In sum, I neither love nor hate this tale. I think its strengths carry it to the point of being moderately palatable, even if its plotting is less than stellar. It's still, for me, better than any arc in the anime, subpar compared to anything else from the manga, and fundamentally lacking compared to what Toriyama typically does with Dragon Ball. It's generally serviceable but only just so, and while I'm fine with what it's doing in isolation, making tropes out of DB's past to such an exceptional degree as in the last two years is definitely not a direction I want the manga to keep moving in. I'd like to think it'll bounce back, but only time will tell.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:26 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:04 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phLH0cW ... e=youtu.be

Toyo’s impression on Moro Arc:

“Unlike the TOP Arc, no one knew what was going on so it was very intimidating, but at the same time it was a lot of fun to draw! There's been many trial & error while I was drawing this but I think this was the best story I could express.”

This isn't a good sign for the franchise's future.
Herms' translation clarifies this better. Toyo said it was the best story he was able to convey via drawing. This does not imply greater participation in the writing process or necessarily a lack of self-criticism, he is simply happy with what he drew

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 8810559491
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:22 pm
All the villains of Dragon Ball have a backstory that explains their powers and origins. We know why Frieza is so powerful and perverse. He's a prodigy from a dynasty that rules over a slave empire. We know why Cell is so powerful and perverse. He's an amalgamation of the mightiest warriors in the universe, designed to achieve ultimate perfection. But can you answer these two questions:

- Why is Moro so evil?
- Why does Moro have the power to devour planets/absorb people (which is his entire gimmick)?

You can't, because his backstory amounts to 0. We know he fought the Grand Supreme Kai in the past and that's it...
We know absolutely nothing about Freeza's backstory. What you wrote is literally a basic outiline that every villain has, even Moro (an evil wizard from ancient times who ended up having his magical power sealed by the Kaisohin, and then being arrested by the galactic patrol). Even Cell just wanted to become perfect and test his limits, nothing groundbraking

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:31 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:26 pm
We know absolutely nothing about Freeza's backstory. What you wrote is literally a basic outiline that every villain has, even Moro (an evil wizard from ancient times who ended up having his magical power sealed by the Kaisohin, and then being arrested by the galactic patrol). Even Cell just wanted to become perfect and test his limits, nothing groundbraking
As I already said, we know where their powers come from. Why is Frieza so strong? Because he is a prodigy. Why does he have multiple forms? To better control his overwhelming powers. Why is Cell so strong? Because he is a mixture of the mightiest warriors in the universe. Brief or not, it is a backstory.

Why can Moro absorb people and eat planets?

Do not try to answer this question, there is no answer.
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:39 pm

Moro sadly has been wasted. We could have at least been told where he comes from. Like what, he MUST have a native planet right? If they just told us he ate it, it would've been fine

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ilikepictures-meh » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:46 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:31 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:26 pm
We know absolutely nothing about Freeza's backstory. What you wrote is literally a basic outiline that every villain has, even Moro (an evil wizard from ancient times who ended up having his magical power sealed by the Kaisohin, and then being arrested by the galactic patrol). Even Cell just wanted to become perfect and test his limits, nothing groundbraking
As I already said, we know where their powers come from. Why is Frieza so strong? Because he is a prodigy. Why does he have multiple forms? To better control his overwhelming powers. Why is Cell so strong? Because he is a mixture of the mightiest warriors in the universe. Brief or not, it is a backstory.

Why can Moro absorb people and eat planets?

Do not try to answer this question, there is no answer.
"Because he's a prodigy" isn't really a backstory. It's a cop-out, not much better than saying "he's strong just because he's strong". Nostalgia is clearly fogging your judgment.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:00 pm

We are two months from the Moro arc and Granola is after 7-3. To be continued.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:03 pm

So, did I get it right? angels don't "erase" themselves? the Daishinkan does it remotely and can vary the intensity of it? This means in a given scenario, he could "allow" an angel to go full power and do their thing, right? and definitely would be able to do it himself as well.

Nice little chapter. I thought Moro would still be alive, in pieces or something. It's good anyway, Goku finally got his W and through murder, too!
Weird nobody went to check everything was completely done and missed OG7-3, though.

I just wish Shin had something else to offer in the arc besides his life when everything went to hell, a missed chance for him to not have met Daikaioshin and give him a last farewell. Merus being alive is nice.
I'm still laughing my ass off with Beerus' punishment. I don't think Zeno was ever this funny and adorable in the manga.


About Granolla, maybe he is a survivor from an erased universe? the missing universes could serve as a great way to introduce new stuff.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:31 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:26 pm
We know absolutely nothing about Freeza's backstory. What you wrote is literally a basic outiline that every villain has, even Moro (an evil wizard from ancient times who ended up having his magical power sealed by the Kaisohin, and then being arrested by the galactic patrol). Even Cell just wanted to become perfect and test his limits, nothing groundbraking
As I already said, we know where their powers come from. Why is Frieza so strong? Because he is a prodigy. Why does he have multiple forms? To better control his overwhelming powers. Why is Cell so strong? Because he is a mixture of the mightiest warriors in the universe. Brief or not, it is a backstory.

Why can Moro absorb people and eat planets?

Do not try to answer this question, there is no answer.
We didn't even know that Freeza was a prodigy until DBS. And yet that was only used as an excuse to make him stronger. In DBZ he was just an evil emperor who conquered planets. He doesn't have a backstory, we don't know anything about his race. I'm not saying that Moro has a backstory, we probably know even less about him than other villains. But it’s not like these other villains have exploited pasts or great motivations
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:03 pm
So, did I get it right? angels don't "erase" themselves? the Daishinkan does it remotely and can vary the intensity of it? This means in a given scenario, he could "allow" an angel to go full power and do their thing, right? and definitely would be able to do it himself as well.
It seems that the fact that Daishinkan personally erased Merus in this case was an exception because of Shin and to be able to revive Merus later, since according to him, an angel who breaks the rules would be erased forever, implying that even Daishinkan could not stop it

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:55 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:03 pm
Thoughts on the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Arc:

*snip*
Co-signed.

I’m not sure there’s a single part of this review I disagree with, nor anything else that bears adding.

Despite Toyotaro’s first outing in a (by all appearances) more prominent creative position being my least favorite arc so far, there’s enough good surrounding the bits that don’t sit well with me (Volume 12) to have been intrigued by another arc placing him in the same creative role.

Which it doesn’t necessarily appear the Granolah arc is at the point, but there also isn’t—and probably won’t be, for a while—enough to take a more precise stab at what exactly its creative balance might be.
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:22 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:13 pm
That’s just your personal assumption. Toyotaro’s statements seem to disagree with your personal assumption and belief.
It's not an assumption, both of them have been working together on the manga since it started, with Toriyama getting final say and even correcting certain parts.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinto » Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:36 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:03 pm
So, did I get it right? angels don't "erase" themselves? the Daishinkan does it remotely and can vary the intensity of it? This means in a given scenario, he could "allow" an angel to go full power and do their thing, right? and definitely would be able to do it himself as well....
I don't think so, if I understood the chapter correctly. Daishinkan erased Merus before he was "definitely" erased so that he could revive him after, and that was the only way to save someone breaking rule hence why he was visibly upset.

Could we see here the pragmatic side of Whis :think:
He knew his little brother wanted to save the universe whilst knowing that anyone breaking rule gets spontaneously erased, yet he let Merus do his own thing while predicting that GP would find a way to save him so as to make Merus's wish come true :think:

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