"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Yes, please! I want Freeza gone; he's just diminishing returns at this point. Let's move on from him.

Also not interested in power levels; the sense I'm getting from all this prior to the release of the chapter is yet more rehash/remix: Tuffles + Bojack + Hatchiyack. Not exciting when I can see the parallels because of been there done that, so I hope they aren't so similar that a familiar audience can't easily chronograph the entire storyline. I'm thrilled the manga has finally escaped the black hole of repetition (imo) that was Moro, but I'm getting too much of a made by committee feel these Granola arc elements have at face value.

Hatchiyack??? There’s a parallel?!

[GodVegetto91]

Why do people keep talking about Frieza controlling Broly? I know he said that in the movie but Broly is Goku's friend now and is probably training with him so how is he going to control him when Lemo and Cheelai is there?

Trying* to control him is better xD

That seems very likely.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I think Frieza won't be killed off this arc.

And I think Broly won't appear too.

Not just yet!

Broly does really not have any reason to!

And Frieza controlling him would be possibly quite difficult as he is now more friendly towards Goku.

What I think might happen is Frieza fighting alongside Goku+Vegeta or then Granolah having help from Goku+Vegeta fighting against Frieza.

One or the other that is the complete opposite!

But I still don't really see Granolah as a true villain.

About the Great Ape Bardock I hope it turns out to be something interesting as well as the stongest fighter being born!

Sincerely, this arc seems like it could be truly promising.

[Chuquita]

Yes, please! I want Freeza gone; he's just diminishing returns at this point. Let's move on from him.

Also not interested in power levels; the sense I'm getting from all this prior to the release of the chapter is yet more rehash/remix: Tuffles + Bojack + Hatchiyack. Not exciting when I can see the parallels because of been there done that, so I hope they aren't so similar that a familiar audience can't easily chronograph the entire storyline. I'm thrilled the manga has finally escaped the black hole of repetition (imo) that was Moro, but I'm getting too much of a made by committee feel these Granola arc elements have at face value.

Hatchiyack??? There’s a parallel?!

73, while not everything is known about him yet coupled with not-Tuffle Granola who seems to want revenge on the saiyans gave me more of Plot to Destroy than they do Baby since Baby was more about assimilating everyone. I guess 73 could also be seen as a kind of Cell remix, but 73 is so devoid of personality and personal motivation that I feel like Hatchiyack is a better comparison than Cell.

[Yuji]

I also don't think Broly will make an appearance this arc (truthfully, I'm doubtful whether he'll ever appear again), but if Freeza plays a significant role, I hope we get a better look at his new and improved army. I would like to see what kind of warriors he has gathered and maybe show off a new Tokusentai. Maybe appropriate the "royal guards" concept that DBO and Xenoverse teased.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I also don't think Broly will make an appearance this arc (truthfully, I'm doubtful whether he'll ever appear again), but if Freeza plays a significant role, I hope we get a better look at his new and improved army. I would like to see what kind of warriors he has gathered and maybe show off a new Tokusentai. Maybe appropriate the "royal guards" concept that DBO and Xenoverse teased.

Although I am inclined to agree, I just can't stress out the fact that Broly is in good terms with Goku, is more powerful than Freeza (so no need to be afraid of him)and yet has 2 friends living with him on a desolate planet. My point being: what motivates Broly to remain there and not move to another planet with better living conditions (taking into consideration those who saved him), since even if Freeza holds a grudge against Lemo and Cheelai, Broly would put an end to him if he wished to. Like, I feel that his journey as a character barely started for him to leave the picture. Even if it's something as basic as him and his friends trying to figure out their place in the universe. Broly gotta move to Earth

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I also don't think Broly will make an appearance this arc (truthfully, I'm doubtful whether he'll ever appear again), but if Freeza plays a significant role, I hope we get a better look at his new and improved army. I would like to see what kind of warriors he has gathered and maybe show off a new Tokusentai. Maybe appropriate the "royal guards" concept that DBO and Xenoverse teased.

Although I am inclined to agree, I just can't stress out the fact that Broly is in good terms with Goku, is more powerful than Freeza (so no need to be afraid of him)and yet has 2 friends living with him on a desolate planet. My point being: what motivates Broly to remain there and not move to another planet with better living conditions (taking into consideration those who saved him), since even if Freeza holds a grudge against Lemo and Cheelai, Broly would put an end to him if he wished to. Like, I feel that his journey as a character barely started for him to leave the picture. Even if it's something as basic as him and his friends trying to figure out their place in the universe. Broly gotta move to Earth

I agree with your perspective actually!

Broly on the next arc possibly will appear again and be moved to Earth and even maybe start training somehow to got more control on his transformation.

[GodVegetto91]

Yes, please! I want Freeza gone; he's just diminishing returns at this point. Let's move on from him.

Also not interested in power levels; the sense I'm getting from all this prior to the release of the chapter is yet more rehash/remix: Tuffles + Bojack + Hatchiyack. Not exciting when I can see the parallels because of been there done that, so I hope they aren't so similar that a familiar audience can't easily chronograph the entire storyline. I'm thrilled the manga has finally escaped the black hole of repetition (imo) that was Moro, but I'm getting too much of a made by committee feel these Granola arc elements have at face value.

Hatchiyack??? There’s a parallel?!

73, while not everything is known about him yet coupled with not-Tuffle Granola who seems to want revenge on the saiyans gave me more of Plot to Destroy than they do Baby since Baby was more about assimilating everyone. I guess 73 could also be seen as a kind of Cell remix, but 73 is so devoid of personality and personal motivation that I feel like Hatchiyack is a better comparison than Cell.

Ahh I see, but rather than using 73’s body for the actual main threat, I have the theory indeed that this is most likely going to be another Cell creation in a lab (or Hatchiyack! As you rightfully pointed out.) So basically a creation made up of the cells/abilities/stored data of all the fighters introduced thus far.. (by scientists ofcourse xD.) Hence why they’ll call it the strongest warrior in the whole universe.. This could be a “perfect Cell done right” scenario. At least, that’s what I’m hoping for!

So it will be an entirely new and different being from 73, and they will only use 73’s stored copied abilities from the fighters he stole (I.e. several alien races, the Z Fighters, Moro, and even Angelic Merus!) to infuse inside this new creation

[anubisj]

I'll ask you some questions. For example, what would you call dr wheelo? He is a human brain, encapsulated in metal. Is he human, or android? A-17 is an android, sure, but he was once a human, now cybernetically enhanced. What does being an android even mean? Is it a separate race? According to your point of view, it should be considered that. But what about a human with a robotic eye? As in, when would you draw the line between a cybernetically enhanced human, and a biologically enhanced android?

Actually this is pretty funny, because it reminds me of that DBZA clip that poked fun at the fact that 17 and 18 are technically cyborgs, and not androids.

Cyborg = Organic creature who was enhanced/altered technologically at a biological level. Example: Mecha Frieza, 17, 18, Dr. Gero.

Android = Mechanical creature that might look like a humanoid, but is 100% mechanical. Example: 16, Cell, Baby. The proof that Baby is a purely mechanical creature is that he did not appear in the Super 17 arc with the other villains in Hell, because he never went there in the first place. Machines don't have souls. When they break, they're gone forever (Technically Cell was in Hell, but I attribute this to inconsistent Toei filler. Toriyama never showed Cell in Hell if I recall correctly).

So I'd call Dr. Wheelo a cyborg, because he's a human who replaced his body with a mechanical one. Whereas the term "android" should be applied to creatures who were created/forged as machines.

Regardless my point is that it's reductive to compare Granolah to Baby just because they have a grudge against Saiyans, because many people have a grudge against Saiyans. Zamasu, Paragus (against the royal family), Frieza himself, all have a grudge against this species.

Granolah and Baby would be comparable if Granolah was also a mechanical parasite created by scientists. But he's not. He's an actual member of the fallen species, he's organic, he's not a machine/mutant/parasite. Cue my original point about how Granolah and Baby have very little in common, and why Toriyama isn't canonizing Baby.

As well, Baby only hated the Saiyans, meanwhile it seems that Granolah despises Frieza too. Don't forget that the Saiyans served the Frieza Force.

I know I'm derailing the conversation here, since we should only be talking about the Super manga, but, again, I just can't resist responding to your theories about species and androids, which you speak of as facts (I'll try not derailing too much and also talk about Granolah and the manga afterwards, but first I'll focus on the Baby not being a tuffle matter). So, analyzing your post from top to bottom:

DBZA is not Dragon Ball, at all. It is a parody, a (imo well made) satire, not the Dragon Ball Gospel. Talking about facts, well, that is one. Your sentence: " it reminds me of that DBZA clip that poked fun at the fact that 17 and 18 are technically cyborgs, and not androids" deserves some mention, since 17 and 18 being cyborgs and not androids is no fact at all, just as cyborgs being what you described and androids being what you described, I don't see any facts there, but just your own (and DBZA) personal interpretation on these terms and how they are applied in Dragon Ball, which could be true or not, we don't know that.

But I'll play along. Let's say you are right. So cyborgs are biological beings, but with robotic enhancements, like 18 or 17. Therefore, you would classify them both as human, right (or human with enhancements, human cyborg, if you will)? According to your logic, 17 would belong to the human species, and mecha freeza, to the "arcosian" or whatever it's called species. So far so good.

Then we have the bit about Baby and what we are provisionally defining as androids (according to your definition) in general being just robots. Indeed, 16 didn't show up in the afterlife, so we could assume that he was a purely mechanical being, and that's why he never showed up later. However, you take the fact that Baby didn't show up in Super 17 saga as proof that he was a machine with no soul. Can't agree with that.

For starters, not all villains that ever died where shown escaping from Hell. Baby could be one of those that where in Hell, but just didn't or couldn't escape for whatever off screen reason (for example, he might be lost in some Hell garden or something along those lines; after all, Hell is so big that it is not easy to find a way out, even if there is one opened. Or he might be in a coccoon like Freeza in Super, maybe he was considered too dangerous to be set free).

And there's also Cell to consider. If Cell was in Hell, why would Baby not end up in there as well, since you said that they are both machines with no soul? That's kind of a contradiction, especially considering that you say Cell being in Hell is "inconsistent filler". If Cell being in Hell (let's call it CellHell to abbreviate ) is just filler, why would you think Baby is not? I mean, it's easy to say that everything the "genious-godly-superbeing toriyama" didn't make, is nothing but senseless filler (which is, for me at least, plain wrong, as he retconned a looot of stuff, and a lot of stuff in his original work didn't make sense). But we are talking about Baby, right? If Baby and therefore GT in general is being considered something "consistent" for the purpose of this discussion, and not something fillerish that makes no sense, then why would CellHell, who belongs in the series and plays a role in the Super 17 saga, be any different?

Finally, you call Dr. Wheelo a cyborg, which makes sense, according to your "cyborg" definition. He has a human brain, but the rest is metal. Ok. In that case, though, you are considering him a human, in the end, right? You consider him part of the human species, just as 17, 18 etc, just like what I was discussing a few paragraphs above. They would all, including dr wheelo, appear in otherworld. They are human, according to you. So, my point is: Baby is a tuffle, just as much as 18 is a human. This could be seen as oversimplificating the matter, but, since we are talking about Dragon Ball and not the future of humanity, I feel it is needed to make things simple.

So far, I've been deconstructing your comments, basically trying to say that we can both be right, but also trying to warn against the "taking my opinion as facts" issue, because in this case in particular, aside from the mounting evidence which I've laid to you, it's really difficult to have clear answers without contradicting yourself. We are probably thinking about this far more than the creators themselves. Having said that, my own personal interpretation is that Baby has a soul, and he is therefore not a machine, but a bioengineered, living, tuffle being.


And now, for the actual manga discussion.

I agree with you that Granolah is not like Baby (but Baby is not like Cell! ), for now at least. They only resemble each other in their lust for revenge, and maybe a few more bits. It is not a rehash. I don't care that it is not original that he wants to kill saiyans, like many others; at this point, saiyans should be one of the top threats/targets for any kind of villain that still remains in universe 7.

I think this new saga has potential, if only for the new designs of the bad guys (for me, designs mean a lot in Dragon Ball, and Super would fail in that category, generally speaking), and the fact that they added back oozarus, even if it was through flashbacks. Oozarus might play a part before it is over. I want to know how this all develops before I give it more thought, but, looks promising so far.

Also, I guess I can't submit this post without addressing the "strongest of the universe" thing. Who could it be? He is going to be born, apparently, so probably a new artificially created being. But, he could also be an alien that gets born and in a couple months is ready to fight (or perhaps even the same day he is born). He could even be a demonic being like Majin Buu. The word born is really ambiguous.

[SupremeKai25]

It doesn't matter if DBZA is a parody because the definition of "cyborg" and "android" are set in stone and are as I explained earlier. Or you can look them up on wikipedia. Just because it's a parody doesn't mean it can't be right on literally the technical definitions of two fictional terms. So, based on the definitions, Baby is a soulless machine, nothing more. Which is, you know, what I have been saying since the beginning. This is definitely derailing though.

All I said is that Granolah is an actual member of his species and not a machine like Baby (fact, that's Baby's backstory), and that Baby is not original but a rehash of Hatchiyak with some aspects of Cell mixed in (fact, as I explained earlier).

[sunsetshimmer]

And there's also Cell to consider. If Cell was in Hell, why would Baby not end up in there as well, since you said that they are both machines with no soul? That's kind of a contradiction, especially considering that you say Cell being in Hell is "inconsistent filler". If Cell being in Hell (let's call it CellHell to abbreviate ) is just filler, why would you think Baby is not? I mean, it's easy to say that everything the "genious-godly-superbeing toriyama" didn't make, is nothing but senseless filler (which is, for me at least, plain wrong, as he retconned a looot of stuff, and a lot of stuff in his original work didn't make sense). But we are talking about Baby, right? If Baby and therefore GT in general is being considered something "consistent" for the purpose of this discussion, and not something fillerish that makes no sense, then why would CellHell, who belongs in the series and plays a role in the Super 17 saga, be any different?

One specific game, i don't remember which one, had Baby escaped hell. Maybe it was DBH. Anyway, since Myuu and Rildo were in hell in GT, i don't see a reason for Baby to not be there. He wasn't called machine, but machine-mutant which suggests, by name alone, he is not just machine. I don't think machine would be able to infect people's mind like a parasite and evolve on its own so much. While Myuu and Rildo were turned into machine-mutants, people Baby infected were not machines in any way. He layed eggs in their bodies that let him control them. The reason he didn't escape hell in Super 17 arc would be simple: Why would they show him again few episodes after entire arc focusing on him as a main villain has just ended? That would be pointless.

Also, calling Baby a rehash of Hatchiyack is way too harsh, as the only thing they had in common was a concept of Tuffle creation taking revenge on saiyans. He was clearly inspired by him, but that's all. You could basically call Goku Black a Turles ripoff as well since both follow the same concept: what if Goku was evil. So far, the movie came with some retarded explanation about most low-class saiyans looking the same, just to make Turles a what-if evil Goku. Baby wasn't the most original villain but none of villains in DBS were very original either. Probably the most original major antagonist DBS had was Hit, but even then you could argue that he is just better written Tao Pai Pai, who has some sense of honor. Piccolo Jr. arc is one of the most beloved and he is basically Piccolo Daimao reborn, no one has problem with that really. Wer are not talking about Kale who was actually awful Broly ripoff in every way. Even her transformation was officially called "turning into Broly" once.

Anyway, Granolah obviously is not Baby reboot, at least not in the same way Broly was, as he is stated to be different race and has different name. He might be inspired by Baby in some way, but that's it. It's still too soon to say anything really. I'd rather see something new rather than rehashing old concepts like they did with Broly. DBS has enough problems when it comes to original content. No need for another villain being rebooted no matter how good he wouldn't be. And i really hope Cooler will never return.

[anubisj]

It doesn't matter if DBZA is a parody because the definition of "cyborg" and "android" are set in stone and are as I explained earlier. Or you can look them up on wikipedia. Just because it's a parody doesn't mean it can't be right on literally the technical definitions of two fictional terms. So, based on the definitions, Baby is a soulless machine, nothing more. Which is, you know, what I have been saying since the beginning. This is definitely derailing though.

All I said is that Granolah is an actual member of his species and not a machine like Baby (fact, that's Baby's backstory), and that Baby is not original but a rehash of Hatchiyak with some aspects of Cell mixed in (fact, as I explained earlier).

Oh please.

If you'd rather keep ignoring (probably not even reading) my posts, you can say it right now; it will make it easier for both of us.

What you are basically doing is addressing one of the multiple reasonings I gave, responding to it (I`ll concede that cyborgs and androids are generally established as science fiction terms) and ingoring all the rest. It's like saying you don´t like how a chocolate cake tastes, even though you only tasted the cherry that was on top.

"Baby is a soulless machine". Yes, I know that's what you've been saying since the beginning. I did read your posts, entirely. I think it is only logical, since you are discussing something with me. And I did object to that, in many ways, explaining why I thought differently. From all of those objections, you responded to, like, one, which wasn't even that relevant to begin with.

Cyborg and android mean what you are stating they mean, ok, but I gave you clear evidence of Baby not necessarily being an android, per the term. So yeah, you responded to the least relevant of my arguments. Coincidentally, it was the first thing written. Perhaps you only read the first few sentences?

In any case, if you'd rather ignore the points I'm making, or some of them, or you don't feel like reading some posts because "too long", by all means, just tell me. Or don't tell me (but then let's stop pretending this is a serious discussion, yeah?). Either way, there's not much else I can say.
Based on what I've said before, (sigh, I hate repeating myself, but here we go again), Baby is not a soulless machine, imo. He is very much alive, a biological being, maybe considered a cyborg.

-He was not born from a tuffle mother, but he was not a purely robotic creation. Just like a clone; clones in fiction are not necessarily born from a mother, they can be artificially created as embryos, which then grow up. Just like Baby.

-CellHell should be considered.

-Not all villains that end up in Hell have been shown in Hell.

-Physically/design wise, nothing definitely proves he was a machine,

-He didn't seem even a bit devoid of emotions or robotic in nature and personality.

I could go on, but then I would be making efforts for something that you apparently lack the interest to engage with, so I would be doing it for nothing, and doing things for nothing is not usually my cup of tea. After all, time is precious (and that is a fact; you seem to like facts a lot, so I stated this one for your convenience. No need to thank me. )


PD: About Baby being a rehash of Cell. The only thing I can see that they have in common is the cells of tuffles vs the cells of plenty of races, being their origins...but that isn't a big deal in terms of rehash. Following that logic, I could argue that Baby is a rehash of Buu, because he can liquify. Kind of a weird thing to bring up.

[OrangeBanana]

The line "greatest warrior in the universe will be born" got me thinking. Does this line factor in Whis and Beerus too, I kinda think it does.
My reasoning is sorta wonky so here it is.

Last arc we got Moro with the powers of an angel trainee, while not comparable to Whis I do think it was done to establish Goku being either in or close to the realm of power where he could hold his own against an angel tier opponent, not necessarily win. Now in the current arc we have Goku spar against the real thing that being Whis, I'll have to wait for the chapter to come out but it would not surprise me if Whis said something along the lines of Goku getting closer and closer by the day to rivalling him.
I feel like Toyotarou and Toriyama are gonna use these two battles to establish the idea that Goku could potentially rival an angle tier power and sorta hint towards the villain also being in the same realm of strength as that, or even stronger.
DB has always made the new villain waaaay stronger than the previous one so having someone for goku to face who is stronger than Whis is not that far fetched, especially with the recent developments of Goku mastering UI which should allow him to at least survive longer than a second against such a opponent.

Watch this post age like milk in the summer heat in the next 5 days.

[Matches Malone]

I think Frieza won't be killed off this arc And I think Broly won't appear too.

I agree with both of these. I don't think Freeza was brought back only to be killed off in someone else's arc, so chances are they've got an arc planned just for him. In terms of Broly, I can see him making a cameo at the end after the final battle as a set up for his potential involvement in the future. If this arc is as long as Moro's, then we can expect the arc to end in 2022, which will be 4 years since Broly's movie. I can't see them leaving him on the side for much longer than that.

[LightBing]

I like how this new era of Dragon Ball kicked off with the reveal of new Universes ,which we speed through 3/4 off. Since then we've just been stuck here.
Even with reasons to at least visit our twinverse, like the other Saiyans, or Freeza going to Frost for recruitment or power up or to conquer another place far from Goku and Vegeta...

A revenge upon the Saiyans/Freeza's army just seems like an incredibly outdated premise at this point.

Anyway let's see what we get. Execution is what matters and I now Toyotarõ can deliver although I'm very suspicious since the previous arc was a nosedive and the worst one yet.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I like how this new era of Dragon Ball kicked off with the reveal of new Universes ,which we speed through 3/4 off. Since then we've just been stuck here.
Even with reasons to at least visit our twinverse, like the other Saiyans, or Freeza going to Frost for recruitment or power up or to conquer another place far from Goku and Vegeta...

A revenge upon the Saiyans/Freeza's army just seems like an incredibly outdated premise at this point.

Anyway let's see what we get. Execution is what matters and I now Toyotarõ can deliver although I'm very suspicious since the previous arc was a nosedive and the worst one yet.

Going to visit the other Saiyans would be amazing too!

Maybe on a future arc.

[goku the krump dancer]

Some of the newer characters Locs huh... That's different lol.

[Hellspawn28]

I think it would be pointless to kill off Freeza seeing that they will likely bring him back anyways. He pretty much replace Pilaf as the most recurring villain of the Dragon Ball series.

[Galactic Specter]

The one interesting direction for Freeza that could inject him with some much needed intrigue in the minds of fans would be if he became an Hakaishin candidate. Whis has been looking for a successor to Beerus and neither of the Saiyans are interested. Not only does Freeza have the eagerness and experience to oversee planets, his being in an official deistic capacity like that could introduce a new dynamic in his relationship with the Saiyans as they're now being faced with an official subordinate of Zeno's who happens to be aiding in the security of universal balance of their whole world.

Giving Freeza ambitions beyond petty revenge on Goku is exactly where I'm hoping the series we'll take him now that he's alive. Looking to put himself on the level of the gods is the logical conclusion of Freeza's role as emperor of the universe. Out of everyone in Universe 7, Freeza definitely seems like the best possible candidate for a new hakaishin that Whis has been mentioning.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

The one interesting direction for Freeza that could inject him with some much needed intrigue in the minds of fans would be if he became an Hakaishin candidate. Whis has been looking for a successor to Beerus and neither of the Saiyans are interested. Not only does Freeza have the eagerness and experience to oversee planets, his being in an official deistic capacity like that could introduce a new dynamic in his relationship with the Saiyans as they're now being faced with an official subordinate of Zeno's who happens to be aiding in the security of universal balance of their whole world.

Giving Freeza ambitions beyond petty revenge on Goku is exactly where I'm hoping the series we'll take him now that he's alive. Looking to put himself on the level of the gods is the logical conclusion of Freeza's role as emperor of the universe. Out of everyone in Universe 7, Freeza definitely seems like the best possible candidate for a new hakaishin that Whis has been mentioning.

I think, obviously, that turning Frieza into a Hakaishin would be simply amoral.

Because, after all, he is still a villain!

That would almost be the same as turning Zamasu into one too...