"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta is kept around but you could say his story was done and gone ages ago too.

Given Toyotaro tends to like using those two characters specifically, they will be back around.

Piccolo says letting Dyspo free would have disrupted everything.

That's not the case considering they're always finding new and interesting ways of using him. If Whis is going to be Goku's teacher, and Beerus potentially Vegeta's, why not have Gohan be the old Kai's ? Maybe have Piccolo find out about some elder Namakian he can train under as well. Vegeta may not be getting the big solo wins his fans want (I'm more than happy with what he's been getting), but there's no denying that he's one of the better utilized characters in modern DB, a treatment Gohan and Piccolo could greatly benefit from.

Of course he's still going to be used, but not in the same way Goku and Vegeta are. Sure he'll get to fight some henchmen here and there, but it's not the same as fighting the main villain of the arc. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying I expect him to be able to outright take down the main villain on his own, but he's the type of character who should be crucial to the overall victory. Gohan and Piccolo are among my favorites in Z, so it's very unfortunate to see them limited to low level tasks. Those should be left to the humans, not someone who beat Cell.

It was definitely a highlight for his character considering how he'd been written up to that point.

[Kagari]

Vegeta is kept around but you could say his story was done and gone ages ago too.

Given Toyotaro tends to like using those two characters specifically, they will be back around.

Piccolo says letting Dyspo free would have disrupted everything.

That's not the case considering they're always finding new and interesting ways of using him. If Whis is going to be Goku's teacher, and Beerus potentially Vegeta's, why not have Gohan be the old Kai's ? Maybe have Piccolo find out about some elder Namakian he can train under as well. Vegeta may not be getting the big solo wins his fans want (I'm more than happy with what he's been getting), but there's no denying that he's one of the better utilized characters in modern DB, a treatment Gohan and Piccolo could greatly benefit from.

Of course he's still going to be used, but not in the same way Goku and Vegeta are. Sure he'll get to fight some henchmen here and there, but it's not the same as fighting the main villain of the arc. I want to make it clear that I'm not saying I expect him to be able to outright take down the main villain on his own, but he's the type of character who should be crucial to the overall victory. Gohan and Piccolo are among my favorites in Z, so it's very unfortunate to see them limited to low level tasks. Those should be left to the humans, not someone who beat Cell.

It was definitely a highlight for his character considering how he'd been written up to that point.

I don't really agree they're always finding new and interesting things to do with Vegeta when a lot of it has been 'Goku but worse' or retreading things he did before.

Personally I'd like to see Goku training with his sons or at least Gohan like both Goku himself wanted to go further with in the anime and in the manga Vegeta was telling Goku to train Gohan too. Or even have Gohan and Vegeta work together. They have an interesting respect that's prime for exploration.

And Gohan and Piccolo did fight Moro in the previous arc. They helped give energy at the end so they did contribute to the overall victory. It was a massive team effort. Gohan in the ToP was also crucial to the team winning. Without him they wouldn't have won in both versions.

[Lionel]

Matches Malone

This is going to sound controversial and it wouldn't surprise me if you disagreed but I honestly would have liked to have seen Toriyama go all the way with having Gohan take the mantle of hero past the Cell arc. You had the foreshadowing and development of his potential going back all the way to the early chapters of the Saiyan arc. It also helps that Gohan wasn't a carbon copy of Goku but someone with the room to grow and develop into a hero of his own mentality and calibre.

We've seen how returning to Goku with Vegeta as his running mate has panned out and it's been... familiar and consistent, if nothing else. Of course I know that the Gohan ship has long since sailed. Best we could hope for now is maybe a tritagonist role or something.

I wouldn't mind seeing Piccolo getting incorporated into all of this because let's face it, he's one of the most recognised and beloved characters of the show. We've seen the few occasions of limelight and acknowledgement regarding him in Super. Piccolo may not be of the same level as Goku and Vegeta right now but he would still make a respectable addition. Do I expect that to happen? My answer to that is I would be impressed if Toyotaro bothered keeping him and Gohan training and on the battlefield. My expectations are low, you see. It doesn't hurt to brainstorm and make suggestions, though.

[Kagari]

Matches Malone

This is going to sound controversial and it wouldn't surprise me if you disagreed but I honestly would have liked to have seen Toriyama go all the way with having Gohan take the mantle of hero past the Cell arc. You had the foreshadowing and development of his potential going back all the way to the early chapters of the Saiyan arc. It also helps that Gohan wasn't a carbon copy of Goku but someone with the room to grow and develop into a hero of his own mentality and calibre.

We've seen how returning to Goku with Vegeta as his running mate has panned out and it's been... familiar and consistent, if nothing else. Of course I know that the Gohan ship has long since sailed. Best we could hope for now is maybe a tritagonist role or something.

I wouldn't mind seeing Piccolo getting incorporated into all of this because let's face it, he's one of the most recognised and beloved characters of the show. We've seen the few occasions of limelight and acknowledgement regarding him in Super. Piccolo may not be of the same level as Goku and Vegeta right now but he would still make a respectable addition. Do I expect that to happen? My answer to that is I would be impressed if Toyotaro bothered keeping him and Gohan training and on the battlefield. My expectations are low, you see. It doesn't hurt to brainstorm and make suggestions, though.

The anime basically did this after the Trunks arc and it was quite the breath of fresh air.

[Cipher]

On the topic of Piccolo, if Toyotarou chooses to integrate the character into this story, I hope he improves his character writing. Piccolo felt distinctly "off" last arc: being outsmarted by the Macareni gang, caught off-guard by OG73-I after being warned by Jaco a few minutes prior, and his speech characterizing Vegeta. While Piccolo in the original series always was hilariously a bit of a klutz and numb-skull, all of this still feels at odds with his modern characterization, which has leaned farther into his title as a "tactician" (as displaced as it may be).

Piccolo’s always been that way. Even in Super, his moments in the spotlight include barely managing to cause Frost some exertion and being rung out by a bug in a semi-comedy beat.

Piccolo is destined to always deliver weird, baffling bits of exposition and screw up in fights, only for the universe of the series and fans to proclaim him a genius anyway. That’s why we love him; that’s who he is.

(But yeah—I genuinely only think the Piccolo of the Moro arc feels off if you choose to misremember everything else Piccolo has ever actually said or done.

Even speechifying about other characters’ personalities and moralities (positive or negative) isn’t new. He does both in the Boo arc. Along with ... delivering weird, baffling exposition. And that’s his smartest arc!)

[Matches Malone]

I would have liked to have seen Toriyama go all the way with having Gohan take the mantle of hero past the Cell arc. Best we could hope for now is maybe a tritagonist role or something. I wouldn't mind seeing Piccolo getting incorporated into all of this because he's one of the most recognized and beloved characters of the show.

The direction DB seems to be going in is having Goku and Vegeta be equally important to the plot, but contribute to it differently. This has more or less been the direction of the story since the Zamasu arc, and I expect it to continue in the current arc based on this month's chapter. Instead of having the arc be split equally between these 2, I'd like it split 4 ways with Gohan and Piccolo thrown into the mix. If Whis is going to be Goku's teacher and Beerus is going to be Vegeta's, then Gohan should become a full time student of the old Kai. He's been around for millions of years, so surely there's something unique he could teach Gohan. Piccolo being so different from Saiyans could work in his and the writers advantage, but they seem to not see it unfortunately. With that said, I do understand the desire to keep the story focused on just the 2 of them, as it allows things to overall remain more focused, even if it does mean wasting the potential of others.

The anime basically did this after the Trunks arc and it was quite the breath of fresh air.

He was non-existent in Broly, and his role in the Moro arc was no different from the other Z fighters present on earth. Goku and Vegeta were without question the main stars of the arc. Being a tritagonist means being on their level, which he isn't, both in terms of power and plot importance. He was important in the tournament, but that's about it.

[Kagari]

I would have liked to have seen Toriyama go all the way with having Gohan take the mantle of hero past the Cell arc. Best we could hope for now is maybe a tritagonist role or something. I wouldn't mind seeing Piccolo getting incorporated into all of this because he's one of the most recognized and beloved characters of the show.

The direction DB seems to be going in is having Goku and Vegeta be equally important to the plot, but contribute to it differently. This has more or less been the direction of the story since the Zamasu arc, and I expect it to continue in the current arc based on this month's chapter. Instead of having the arc be split equally between these 2, I'd like it split 4 ways with Gohan and Piccolo thrown into the mix. If Whis is going to be Goku's teacher and Beerus is going to be Vegeta's, then Gohan should become a full time student of the old Kai. He's been around for millions of years, so surely there's something unique he could teach Gohan. Piccolo being so different from Saiyans could work in his and the writers advantage, but they seem to not see it unfortunately. With that said, I do understand the desire to keep the story focused on just the 2 of them, as it allows things to overall remain more focused, even if it does mean wasting the potential of others.

The anime basically did this after the Trunks arc and it was quite the breath of fresh air.

He was non-existent in Broly, and his role in the Moro arc was no different from the other Z fighters present on earth. Goku and Vegeta were without question the main stars of the arc. Being a tritagonist means being on their level, which he isn't, both in terms of power and plot importance. He was important in the tournament, but that's about it.

Not having him (or anyone else) in Broly just makes the whole thing look inconsequential and unimportant because no one is reacting to the situation. It's a criticism I have long held for that movie. 54 episodes of the anime are more important to the story of Super than a movie that can be removed and nothing really changes or has any relevancy to the main cast. Most characters were absent from Broly, including a Goku who wouldn't just skip to fusion without going all out.

I'd argue Gohan and Piccolo's fights in the Moro arc were still far more interesting than Vegeta or Goku's. They still had roles in gathering the other fighters, fighting off and capturing the other prisoners. It's on Toyo for not doing more with that (which he could have instead of skipping their training they said they were doing) instead of wasting so much time on Vegeta as he always does - to the point his role in the Trunks arc is of artificial importance, leading the charge on a story that has nothing to do with him.

Regardless, Gohan and Piccolo still participated in the fight with Moro which is a complaint people had before. Now it's just a matter of putting forth some setup to that type of payoff like the anime did.

[The Undying]

He was important in the tournament, but that's about it.

I don't even think that much is true.

In the anime, Gohan's role as "team leader" is pointless fluff. The four teammates that actually go along with his position are the first four to get eliminated, and not long after the tournament begins, his "leadership" amounts to telling Roshi and Tenshinhan to sod off while he spends a large chunk of the story running around with Piccolo. He gets a few fights of his own and obviously a lot of screentime, but outside of the U6 Namekians and Dyspo (both of whom are part of teams that the audience would actually have reason to feel invested in) almost none of them are interesting or feel integrated within overarching plot threads. His fight with Jimeze, for example, completely regresses his development from his training with Piccolo by having Freeza of all people call him out on his obliviousness.

With the manga, I can at least appreciate not having to suspend my disbelief at him being given some shallow, arbitrary job that he was bad at and amounted to nothing. If his fight with Kefla wasn't offscreened, I would have liked his involvement in Toyotaro's version, but as it stands, both mediums left some things to be desired with his character. He felt far more purposeful in the original series, whether it was favorable cirumstances where he's overcoming Cell or even unfavorable ones where he's on the losing end.

As for the Broly film, it was about the contrast between Goku, Vegeta, Broly and their fathers -- specifically in how their parenthood influenced the juxtaposition between Broly's imprisonment and Goku's freedom, even though Goku and Vegeta were ultimately unaware of their fathers' influence (which is very much in line with DB's worldview of Goku's unwitting/unintended heroism). Gohan would have contributed absolutely nothing to the themes of that story because he doesn't share that same full-fledged Saiyan commonality, so throwing him a bone just to appease his fanbase wouldn't have benefited the narrative at all.

[Matches Malone]

I don't even think that much is true. both mediums left some things to be desired with his character.

His involvement definitely could've been better. With Goku getting a solo win against Kefla and Vegeta against Toppo, Gohan should've gotten a solo win as well. If I were to rank the final five members of the tournament based on contribution, Gohan would unfortunately be last.

#17 won the tournament so he contributed the most by default, despite not getting any major solo wins.
Goku unlocked UI, took down Kefla alone, & took down Jiren with Freeza's help.
Vegeta unlocked a new form of Blue, Took down Toppo alone, & gave Goku the energy necessary to get back up and fight.
Freeza helped Goku take down Jiren, as well as helping Gohan take down Dyspo.
Gohan took down Dyspo, but not only did he need Freeza's help to do so, he was also eliminated in the process.

Was Gohan's role an improvement over what came before ? sure, but the bar was so low that anything would've been an improvement. With all the build up and hype surrounding him, his contribution was very small in comparison to the 4 above him.

Not having him (or anyone else) in Broly just makes the whole thing look inconsequential and unimportant because no one is reacting to the situation.

It's on Toyo for not doing more with that instead of wasting so much time on Vegeta as he always does - to the point his role in the Trunks arc is of artificial importance, leading the charge on a story that has nothing to do with him.

They were the ones who were inconsequential, not the story. They had nothing of value to offer, as explained above by The Undying. In terms of their role in the Moro arc, it was equally inconsequential as they couldn't even take out his henchmen, Goku had to do it. With Goku potentially unlocking a new level of UI and Vegeta receiving a new transformation after his training with Beerus, I expect their roles to diminish even further.

Vegeta's role in modern DB is anything but artificial, he's the second main character. As much as I've complained about modern DB, Vegeta without question is its best part. I know his fan base complains about him getting "cheated" a lot, and to that I say go watch GT if you want to see Vegeta get cheated.

[Kagari]

He was important in the tournament, but that's about it.

I don't even think that much is true.

In the anime, Gohan's role as "team leader" is pointless fluff. The four teammates that actually go along with his position are the first four to get eliminated, and not long after the tournament begins, his "leadership" amounts to telling Roshi and Tenshinhan to sod off while he spends a large chunk of the story running around with Piccolo. He gets a few fights of his own and obviously a lot of screentime, but outside of the U6 Namekians and Dyspo (both of whom are part of teams that the audience would actually have reason to feel invested in) almost none of them are interesting or feel integrated within overarching plot threads. His fight with Jimeze, for example, completely regresses his development from his training with Piccolo by having Freeza of all people call him out on his obliviousness.

With the manga, I can at least appreciate not having to suspend my disbelief at him being given some shallow, arbitrary job that he was bad at and amounted to nothing. If his fight with Kefla wasn't offscreened, I would have liked his involvement in Toyotaro's version, but as it stands, both mediums left some things to be desired with his character. He felt far more purposeful in the original series, whether it was favorable cirumstances where he's overcoming Cell or even unfavorable ones where he's on the losing end.

As for the Broly film, it was about the contrast between Goku, Vegeta, Broly and their fathers -- specifically in how their parenthood influenced the juxtaposition between Broly's imprisonment and Goku's freedom, even though Goku and Vegeta were ultimately unaware of their fathers' influence (which is very much in line with DB's worldview of Goku's unwitting/unintended heroism). Gohan would have contributed absolutely nothing to the themes of that story because he doesn't share that same full-fledged Saiyan commonality, so throwing him a bone just to appease his fanbase wouldn't have benefited the narrative at all.

His role as the leader int he anime was anything but 'fluff'. Especially since he saved Freeza from elimination and ordered him around in a plan that took out one of the final trio. But even before that there's other pieces throughout the tournament that show him as a confident fighter, leading the team - particularly with the robots episodes. He spends a lot of time protecting Piccolo too, which again, is being a leader.

I don't even think that much is true. both mediums left some things to be desired with his character.

His involvement definitely could've been better. With Goku getting a solo win against Kefla and Vegeta against Toppo, Gohan should've gotten a solo win as well. If I were to rank the final five members of the tournament based on contribution, Gohan would unfortunately be last.

#17 won the tournament so he contributed the most by default, despite not getting any major solo wins.
Goku unlocked UI, took down Kefla alone, & took down Jiren with Freeza's help.
Vegeta unlocked a new form of Blue, Took down Toppo alone, & gave Goku the energy necessary to get back up and fight.
Freeza helped Goku take down Jiren, as well as helping Gohan take down Dyspo.
Gohan took down Dyspo, but not only did he need Freeza's help to do so, he was also eliminated in the process.

Was Gohan's role an improvement over what came before ? sure, but the bar was so low that anything would've been an improvement. With all the build up and hype surrounding him, his contribution was very small in comparison to the 4 above him.

Not having him (or anyone else) in Broly just makes the whole thing look inconsequential and unimportant because no one is reacting to the situation.

It's on Toyo for not doing more with that instead of wasting so much time on Vegeta as he always does - to the point his role in the Trunks arc is of artificial importance, leading the charge on a story that has nothing to do with him.

They were the ones who were inconsequential, not the story. They had nothing of value to offer, as explained above by The Undying. In terms of their role in the Moro arc, it was equally inconsequential as they couldn't even take out his henchmen, Goku had to do it. With Goku potentially unlocking a new level of UI and Vegeta receiving a new transformation after his training with Beerus, I expect their roles to diminish even further.

Vegeta's role in modern DB is anything but artificial, he's the second main character. As much as I've complained about modern DB, Vegeta without question is its best part. I know his fan base complains about him getting "cheated" a lot, and to that I say go watch GT if you want to see Vegeta get cheated.

Gohan still saved Freeza from elimination and took out Dyspo, his contribution is anything but small because without that happening they wouldn't have won. Freeza wouldn't have been there to help Goku. It's all connective.

And Vegeta's role is absolutely artificial in the sense that the main story beats aren't about him. They're about Goku's journey as this is Goku's story and not Vegeta's. It was nonsense in the manga for only Vegeta to fight Goku Black, just as an example. There's no reason behind it other than Toyotaro removing the chemistry between Goku and Black because of his own desires.

[Matches Malone]

His role as the leader int he anime was anything but 'fluff'. Especially since he saved Freeza from elimination and ordered him around in a plan that took out one of the final trio. But even before that there's other pieces throughout the tournament that show him as a confident fighter, leading the team - particularly with the robots episodes. He spends a lot of time protecting Piccolo too, which again, is being a leader.

His role wasn't bad, I (and others) just expected more from the guy who killed Cell and wiped the floor with Super Buu. His role was something you'd expect Piccolo to take on, not a powerhouse like Gohan. As Vegeta says time and again, Gohan has the most potential out of the team, so he should be on the front lines taking down the heavy hitters alongside his father and Vegeta, not standing on the side alongside the likes of Tien and Yamcha.

[Kagari]

His role as the leader int he anime was anything but 'fluff'. Especially since he saved Freeza from elimination and ordered him around in a plan that took out one of the final trio. But even before that there's other pieces throughout the tournament that show him as a confident fighter, leading the team - particularly with the robots episodes. He spends a lot of time protecting Piccolo too, which again, is being a leader.

His role wasn't bad, I (and others) just expected more from the guy who killed Cell and wiped the floor with Super Buu. His role was something you'd expect Piccolo to take on, not a powerhouse like Gohan. As Vegeta says time and again, Gohan has the most potential out of the team, so he should be on the front lines taking down the heavy hitters alongside his father and Vegeta, not standing on the side alongside the likes of Tien and Yamcha.

Dyspo in the anime and Kafla in the manga are heavy hitters though, lol.

[Matches Malone]

Dyspo in the anime and Kafla in the manga are heavy hitters though, lol.

Not only did he need Freeza's help to take down Dyspo, he was also eliminated in the process on top of that. It wasn't anything to write home about. I do appreciate him not needing help taking down Kefla, but he was still eliminated while doing so. For all the build up, as well as really liking Gohan's role in Z, I expected more.

Then you've got the Moro arc, where he's just sitting around earth with the others while Goku and Vegeta are doing their own unique training in preparation for Moro. At this point Gohan should be training with the old Kai to reach his father and Vegeta's level in order to truly contribute to the major fights, not sit around training with Piccolo in the middle of nowhere.

[Kagari]

Dyspo in the anime and Kafla in the manga are heavy hitters though, lol.

Not only did he need Freeza's help to take down Dyspo, he was also eliminated in the process on top of that. It wasn't anything to write home about. I do appreciate him not needing help taking down Kefla, but he was still eliminated while doing so. For all the build up, as well as really liking Gohan's role in Z, I expected more.

Then you've got the Moro arc, where he's just sitting around earth with the others while Goku and Vegeta are doing their own unique training in preparation for Moro. At this point Gohan should be training with the old Kai to reach his father and Vegeta's level in order to truly contribute to the major fights, not sit around training with Piccolo in the middle of nowhere.

More like Freeza needed Gohan's help to stop Dyspo. It was Gohan who saved Freeza from being eliminated after all. Because of Dyspo's speed, Gohan ordered Freeza to create the cage to trap him. Not even Freeza on his own could deal with Dyspo there. Gohan sacrificing himself isn't something to look down on either. He made a decision that saved the team because letting Dyspo go would have disrupted the rest of U7. Piccolo outright says this.

He was training with Piccolo on Earth, not just sitting around. Like I said before, he should at least be training with Goku or even Vegeta but it's still incredible he's gotten as strong as he is without any of the god ki crutches.

[Matches Malone]

Gohan sacrificing himself isn't something to look down on either. He made a decision that saved the team because letting Dyspo go would have disrupted the rest of U7. Piccolo outright says this.

Gohan's role against Dyspo wasn't bad, but he should've gotten something else as well. A team up between Goku and Gohan against Kale and Caulifla would've helped improve his overall role and contribution. Instead of having those 2 girls fuse, have them take on Gohan and Goku independently. A weakened Goku taking on Caulifla while Gohan takes on a Lssj Kale would've been a more interesting choice than what we got.

[ZombieVito]

Dyspo in the anime and Kafla in the manga are heavy hitters though, lol.

Not only did he need Freeza's help to take down Dyspo, he was also eliminated in the process on top of that. It wasn't anything to write home about. I do appreciate him not needing help taking down Kefla, but he was still eliminated while doing so. For all the build up, as well as really liking Gohan's role in Z, I expected more.

Then you've got the Moro arc, where he's just sitting around earth with the others while Goku and Vegeta are doing their own unique training in preparation for Moro. At this point Gohan should be training with the old Kai to reach his father and Vegeta's level in order to truly contribute to the major fights, not sit around training with Piccolo in the middle of nowhere.

Dyspo's speed in the anime was impressive as hell. He would have eliminated all of U7 bar Goku and Vegeta.

Gohan also prepared for Moro but in typical Toyo fashion, we never saw it. I'm sure Toei will correct this.

[Matches Malone]

Gohan also prepared for Moro but in typical Toyo fashion, we never saw it. I'm sure Toei will correct this.

I do expect Toei to improve certain aspects of the arc, but his core role won't change. He'll still be limited to fighting nobodies while waiting with the likes of Yamcha for Goku and Vegeta to come save the day, when in fact he should be training with Old Kai and be someone the others wait for and expect to be able to save the day.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan also prepared for Moro but in typical Toyo fashion, we never saw it. I'm sure Toei will correct this.

I do expect Toei to improve certain aspects of the arc, but his core role won't change. He'll still be limited to fighting nobodies while waiting with the likes of Yamcha for Goku and Vegeta to come save the day, when in fact he should be training with Old Kai and be someone the others wait for and expect to be able to save the day.

Nobodies?

But Gohan and Piccolo fought that roid dude and even Moro...

[The Undying]

His role as the leader int he anime was anything but 'fluff'.

If you're going to respond to me, address the points I made instead of retorting with irrelevant, poorly articulated examples that focus on isolated team-ups and have nothing to do with leading a team of fighters.

I just explained how it's little more than fruitless lipservice with some pretty detailed instances in the anime that show Gohan being incompetent, which you didn't actually address. Protecting Piccolo in some saccharine moment against two Namekian nobodies that have no chemistry with either of those characters isn't leading a team. Cooperating in combo attacks with Freeza (which isn't even in Freeza's character, by the way) isn't leading a team. Once again, the characters who were willing to cooperate with Gohan's role were the first to be eliminated and weren't coordinated in any way by Gohan's "leadership".

Pay attention to the story and stop exaggerating what happened because he's your favorite character.

[ZombieVito]

How are Saonel and Pirina nobodies?

They are the strongest of U6 besides Hit and even got eliminated last.

In the manga they are nobodies. They just show up and get eliminated after saying 1 sentence each.