"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

At the very least, I like the intention to reduce form bloat. That was clearly the intention all the way back in F, but they backtracked on it. Restricting Goku to his base and silver form would be nice.

[TheSaiyanGod]

To be honest, I still think Goku is going to use the other Saiyan forms. The difference is that when he masters the UI completely, all of them will be improved as well. But what seems clear to me is that they will stick to the UI concept instead of introducing new forms, similar to what happened with SSB in the previous arcs (hence why Whis saying that the Silver Haired form will be Goku's trump card). Thus, reducing the amount of new transformations.

If I had to bet, maybe Vegeta will get some form to represent Hakai's powers, but it probably won't be radically different and he will probably continue to focus on that too, instead of looking for new forms

[Cipher]

Yeah, I understand that it had certain issues in the past with maintaining it, but it was described in the Jiren fight as the reactions themselves taking a toll on Goku who has only just learned the technique; not the actual transformation itself being stamina draining.

Just for clarification: I don't disagree with that. What takes Goku out of the form (or technique, if you prefer, but six of one half-dozen of the other) in the ToP is the exertion of the movement (against someone of Jiren's speed and power), rather than some sort of innate energy drain. But it's still the case that when he's exhausted, he drops out of it. Compared to not being transformed at all, if it can be dropped out of, it's always taken some level of energy to maintain.

Similarly, against Moro, it isn't some kind of innate drain to the form that takes him out of it, but when captured and sapped by Moro, he doesn't have the energy to tap into it again. It's not completely effortless.

Both indicate a state that takes at least some energy to be in, and that it would be advantageous, if only on those grounds, to avoid.

[Koitsukai]

To be honest, I still think Goku is going to use the other Saiyan forms. The difference is that when he masters the UI completely, all of them will be improved as well. But what seems clear to me is that they will stick to the UI concept instead of introducing new forms, similar to what happened with SSB in the previous arcs (hence why Whis saying that the Silver Haired form will be Goku's trump card). Thus, reducing the amount of new transformations.

If I had to bet, maybe Vegeta will get some form to represent Hakai's powers, but it probably won't be radically different and he will probably continue to focus on that too, instead of looking for new forms

I think this as well. Instead of introducing new forms, we'll get an enhancement of the already existing forms, moving the current strongest form up the ladder. So, to grow taller I need to fix my shoes and my legs and core, not wear another silly hat... lol worst metaphor ever.

Vegeta is following a similar training to Toppo's, so he might become stronger without relevant changes in his appearence.
Although one does wonder, if Toppo was training to be a hakaishin, didn't he learn hakai? clearly hakai can be used without killing the opponent, why didn't he use it? or is he a slow learner and Vegeta already is ahead of him?

[GodVegetto91]

To be honest, I still think Goku is going to use the other Saiyan forms. The difference is that when he masters the UI completely, all of them will be improved as well. But what seems clear to me is that they will stick to the UI concept instead of introducing new forms, similar to what happened with SSB in the previous arcs (hence why Whis saying that the Silver Haired form will be Goku's trump card). Thus, reducing the amount of new transformations.

If I had to bet, maybe Vegeta will get some form to represent Hakai's powers, but it probably won't be radically different and he will probably continue to focus on that too, instead of looking for new forms

I think this as well. Instead of introducing new forms, we'll get an enhancement of the already existing forms, moving the current strongest form up the ladder. So, to grow taller I need to fix my shoes and my legs and core, not wear another silly hat... lol worst metaphor ever.

Vegeta is following a similar training to Toppo's, so he might become stronger without relevant changes in his appearence.
Although one does wonder, if Toppo was training to be a hakaishin, didn't he learn hakai? clearly hakai can be used without killing the opponent, why didn't he use it? or is he a slow learner and Vegeta already is ahead of him?

Maybe they’ll retcon Toppo into no longer being a GoD candidate! Revealing he has abandoned it because it didn’t “suit him”. Lol

[GodVegetto91]

To be honest, I still think Goku is going to use the other Saiyan forms. The difference is that when he masters the UI completely, all of them will be improved as well. But what seems clear to me is that they will stick to the UI concept instead of introducing new forms, similar to what happened with SSB in the previous arcs (hence why Whis saying that the Silver Haired form will be Goku's trump card). Thus, reducing the amount of new transformations.

If I had to bet, maybe Vegeta will get some form to represent Hakai's powers, but it probably won't be radically different and he will probably continue to focus on that too, instead of looking for new forms

This really sucks. These forms need to go. All of them except for the original Super Saiyan form.

“Less is more.”

We are minimalists and want things to be as simple and energy conserving as possible. Goku had previously “mastered” Super Saiyan all the way back in the Cell Arc. So they’re not going to throw that away.

But SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God, SSJ Blue, and SSJ Blue Evolution all need to go. There’s literally no point for these anymore now that Goku has the MUI’s Full power in his Base form (not right now ofcourse, but once that point is achieved!)

It’s like Toriyama stated in a relatively recent interview, Base and SSJ1 are the ultimate forms to use for Goku!

[BWri]

At the very least, I like the intention to reduce form bloat. That was clearly the intention all the way back in F, but they backtracked on it. Restricting Goku to his base and silver form would be nice.

I think this just enforces that their will be more forms later on down the line should DB continue. That's been the trend. If a form is tied to a power boost then it will eventually be outclassed. That's why forms should specialize so that there's a reason to keep them around other than nostalgia or just replace older forms completely as was seemingly the plan as of the RoF movie.

UI being both a form and a technique is sloppy. A case of an author having his cake and eating it too. I don't have too much of a problem with the idea at present, but I can forsee the problems that this will bring later on. It being a transformation should have probably been limited to the Saiyans who have a weird biology predicated on transformations. If it's the end-game form, then fine.

Better, it would have been to make it a state of being like actual Mushin, but you know, capitalism wins out in the end. Gotta sell new hair colors to them kids.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Let's see if Toyotaro or Toriyama will give a proper name to the form so that "Ultra Instinct" refers only to the technique, I don't think they will, though...

No doubt you're right. However, where official sources refrain, fans find the means to proffer unofficial alternatives.

Might something like 'Jin-Ryoku Goku' (Divine Power Goku) serve for the purpose? As terminology that has already been used in connection with Ultra Instinct in the Moro arc, it would foreground the Divine Power aspect of the transformation (and so its fundamental character), while preserving the linkage with Ultra Instinct as a technique.

[LoganForkHands73]

Yeah, I understand that it had certain issues in the past with maintaining it, but it was described in the Jiren fight as the reactions themselves taking a toll on Goku who has only just learned the technique; not the actual transformation itself being stamina draining. I would say that the ToP arc goes out of its way to describe the technique as the triumph of martial arts and movement over power, but this latest revelation makes it clear that the form itself is a massive power boost.

You are right that the Moro arc went out of its way to signify that it needs a lot of divine energy and will not last otherwise. Merus also says that it is more stable the stronger a person is. I wasn't a fan of those aspects compared to how it was initially explained in the ToP, and I think this is a continuation of a road I already wasn't a fan of ultra instinct going down. When Goku masters ultra instinct in his other forms the form will essentially just be another super saiyan transformation.

My feelings are not set in stone right now anyway. I'm sure I'll just get used to it. It's just jarring when something is totally different to how I imagined it worked.

Alas, strength of the user is the unspoken aspect of Ultra Instinct, it's unfortunately why none of the other cast will probably ever be able do it, even though some, like Roshi, can use the principles of the technique just fine. As Cipher said, maintaining the Ultra Instinct forms always seems to require a large amount of energy, and especially when Goku first used it against Jiren, he was being pushed way past the brink both mentally and physically, just frantically dodging and countering everything Jiren threw at him until he could take no more. Nothing like the efficient, measured movements he makes now.

I think it does kinda neatly harken back to the very first lessons by Kame-Sen'nin, that teaching martial arts in Dragon Ball requires a baseline level of superhuman strength, otherwise Goku and Kuririn wouldn't be able to progress. Ultra Instinct just seems to need a much higher level of strength to proceed. Which makes some sense, you would have to be insanely fit and strong to be able to move like that. Personally, I don't mind if the silver-haired UI form remains a last-minute trump card, because that is essentially what it's always been. We always know Goku has it in reserve, but it still holds the privilege of being Goku's highest form. I believe the end game for Goku now is to simply stop relying on it or any other transformation and be able to fight with total mindlessness. Whis has naturally mastered it to a degree that he doesn't have to concentrate on his opponent at all ("Ah, I love Spring...") to style on them. And the Grand Priest has a level far beyond even that. Always more hills to climb!

[TheSaiyanGod]

DBS Chapter 71 trailer (+VJUMP cover)

Spoiler:

https://mobile.twitter.com/V_Jump/statu ... _&ref_url=

[jd55513]

As I always say, if it changes appearance, even in the slightest (like Ultimate or the Namekuseijin's red-eyed form), it is a transformation.

Anyway, good that this was finally addressed.

Indeed, it seems so. Fair play to you, sir.

Perversely, however, it also seems also that the exchange reaffirms that Ultra Instinct is not, in and of itself, a transformation; else Whis's goal for Goku to use it without transforming himself would be nonsensical. TobyS and LoganForkHands73 suggested a few months back that Goku was transforming, in the literal sense, and that the transformation 'contained' the technique even though the technique is not, in and of itself, a transformation (a fine distinction, but a real one). This position seems to be confirmed by the exchange, so fair play to them too.

According to the translations they are going the grade 4 super saiyan route.

Strictly speaking, isn't it the opposite of that approach? SSj^IV was about acclimatising to a transformed state as though it were normal, but this is about eschewing a transformation pretty much altogether while retaining the perks that were originally associated with it.

I was referring to the principals of ki control that lead to the route of grade 4 super saiyan.

Yes, as you stated, they were normalizing the emotive strain and ki consumption of the form of super saiyan. By them lowering the emotive strain in the form, they could better regulate their power and if needed, power up without a strain occuring.

While Whis says that Goku should learn to use the principal of UI in base passively like a angel, he mentions that if you need more power you would "power up" to the silver hair form, as a trump card.
However even though Goku has "mastered" the silver hair form, it still has a "energy tax" and has heavy stamina cost.
But what I was saying was that Philosophy behind using UI in base without having to transform again, is similar to grade 4 principles.
Just like grade 4 is also similar to blue perfected.

It's all about thermodynamics.
Become better efficient with energy since you lose it as a result of doing work(i.e transforming, aura, light and heat...etc)

[Hugo Boss]

DBS Chapter 71 trailer (+VJUMP cover)

Spoiler:

https://mobile.twitter.com/V_Jump/statu ... _&ref_url=

Nice depiction of their training. So, Goku really will use that..

[GodVegetto91]

Wait.. Goku ALREADY HAS Ultra Instinct in Base???!

That fast!

Didn’t Goku say it would take: “a long time” for him to achieve that?

[Thani]

Better, it would have been to make it a state of being like actual Mushin, but you know, capitalism wins out in the end. Gotta sell new hair colors to them kids.

Hard agree with that. I don't mind the visual cues, tho, but it being a divine state makes it much better simply because it wouldn't be exclusive to Saiyans.

Hell, it was really easy to explain as well. "Once you master Ultra Instinct, you become more angel-like, hence the aura/white hair/white eyes". The angels being passively in the state and having similar features makes it even easier to implement with no trouble.

Wait.. Goku ALREADY HAS Ultra Instinct in Base???!

That fast!

Didn’t Goku say it would take: “a long time” for him to achieve that?

Urgh. It could be so easy, couldn't it? When tapping into UI, Goku gains the traits associated with it. There, done, even his hairstyle didn't change much besides the colour. "Ultra Instinct in base" feels so redundant...

[TheSaiyanGod]

Whis' symbol back, but on the regular Gi this time?

Spoiler:

[LightBing]

I really want UI cleared up.

It seemed to be just a technique in ToP, you moved faster by "not thinking", did damage by exploring openings and withstood hits by avoiding vitals.
But since the Moro arc, it seems to be slowly turning into just another basic power up...

At this point, I'm just not sure. I was really tired of transformations past SSJ God, UI was the exception since it actually tried to do something different and wasn't just another hair color.

[DiscountDabi]

Wait.. Goku ALREADY HAS Ultra Instinct in Base???!

That fast!

Didn’t Goku say it would take: “a long time” for him to achieve that?

Urgh. It could be so easy, couldn't it? When tapping into UI, Goku gains the traits associated with it. There, done, even his hairstyle didn't change much besides the colour. "Ultra Instinct in base" feels so redundant...

I’m confused, what part of this trailer indicates that Goku can already Use Ultra Instinct In Base Form? All it showed was Goku training in his Base Form.

[ZeroNeonix]

I really want UI cleared up.

It seemed to be just a technique in ToP, you moved faster by "not thinking", did damage by exploring openings and withstood hits by avoiding vitals.
But since the Moro arc, it seems to be slowly turning into just another basic power up...

At this point, I'm just not sure. I was really tired of transformations past SSJ God, UI was the exception since it actually tried to do something different and wasn't just another hair color.

One thing I liked about Ultra Instinct was how it changed Goku's personality. Because he basically has to turn his brain off to allow his body to fight faster than he can otherwise, he drops his usual up-beat personality for stoicism, and he goes from extremely talkative to nearly silent. Like, he'll talk (how he does that if he's supposed to be 100% zen, I don't know), but it's generally limited to a few short phrases here and there. IMO, they really should have made it so that Goku has Ultra Instinct in his back pocket as a last resort that he doesn't like to use. I mean, fighting is Goku's passion, and Ultra Instinct makes it so he can't enjoy the battle, so shouldn't he despise having to use it and avoid doing so as much as possible? Now it seems like it has basically taken the place of Super Saiyan Blue.

[GodVegetto91]

Goku still needing to use the silver haired form is just plain stupid and idiotic. If Goku has all its abilities in Base, then what would he need the form for???!

Yeah yeah, I get the theory that it’s a “separate powerup somehow” which literally doesn’t make any sense and is something that I’m going to reject from the start.

What DOES make sense is if he has 100% of the silver haired version’s power in his Base form.. That when he turns “Super Saiyan” after it, that he would get even stronger! As it’s a 50x multiplier! Truly ingenius! And a much better concept than him continuing to use the known UI form (whom’s power he already possesses! Total insanity!) And then simply have this new Super Saiyan form transform from Yellow.. to White! And voila! We’ve got ourselves yet another Divine Super Saiyan form!

One to end ALL further transformations!

So the people who are tired of all these new transformations and want them to end, can finally be HAPPY!

[Miracles]

Goku's UI in base wouldn't be as strong and powerful in silver.