"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Mister_Popo]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

it was the fans who were assuming the form was a god of destruction transformation like Toppo's in the anime (where he needed to use it to perform the powers of the destroyers), but we had no context, it was just speculation. It is clear that the ''A God of destruction's power'' in the title of the chapter is about the destruction instinct and mentaility that Beerus taught Vegeta, which is also used by other destroyers (and which is what fits best with Vegeta's nature). the destruction technique is part of it because is fueled by this mindset. Just like ultra instinct it's a mentality shared by the angels (which is also what fits best with goku's nature).

like, people really need to read the beerus chapters at the beginning of this saga, there is the whole explanation of this power. it's not about destroyers' powers or angelic powers, these are forms run by instincts

I haven't actually said Vegetas new transformation was expected to become an actual Destroyers form like Toppo's. In the contrary.
Beerus was "educating" Vegeta about the mindset of a Destroyer (hence why Beerus set the example chapters back, otherwise that wouldn't have had any sense whatsoever). Why is it therefore ignorant to suggest it is at least somehow tied to a Gods of Destructions powers and abilities?
My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form, it's something else, but we don"t get an immediate explaination how the exact mechanism work. They should do that right away to my feeling, not within xx chapters, because this is rather confusing for readers.

[Magnificent Ponta]

My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form

Indeed. And the Ultra Instinct transformation isn't an actual Angel form, but is Goku's transformative appropriation of fighting principles embodied by Angels, which he's developed under Whis's (and Merus's) tutelage. Ultra Ego is simply Vegeta's transformative appropriation of principles already explained to be embodied by Gods of Destruction like Beerus, under his tutelage. That seems like a fairly unproblematic explanation, to me.

[TheSaiyanGod]

My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form, it's something else, but we don"t get an immediate explaination how the exact mechanism work. They should do that right away to my feeling, not within xx chapters, because this is rather confusing for readers.

Quoting something I said in another thread, I believe that the transformation used by Vegeta is simply the result of his innate power (as said by him). And also as he told Granolah, it was Beerus who taught him about instinct-driven power and its principles (the mindset), but the result of what he was seeing (the form) was Vegeta's own power, it's something unique, which was awakened as a result of that fight. Basically, just like the Angels mindset and its use causes Goku a transformation, the same goes for Vegeta and the GoDs mindset, after all, neither the Angels nor the GoDs showed transformations related to these philosophies, it's a Saiyan thing.

[kemuri07]

I used to also be upset that Goku always outshone everyone. Then I stopped being the legitimate 12 year old I was who watched this everyday on Toonami.

He’s the protagonist of this story. Some characters may be more in focus than him at various points of the story, but Dragonball (at least this contiguous narrative) is Goku’s story. It’s ridiculous to be this incensed by the protagonist being the one to resolve conflicts in his own story.

I just don't get this mentality. "i HATE THIS STORY BECAUSE THE CHARACTER I LIKE ISN'T WINNING ALL THE TIME" If all your character does is win or "gets respected," than it doesn't matter at all..becacuse he's a Mary Sue. It is shonen storytelling 101. Characters get battered around, until they make some transformation and eek in a moment of victory. But I often find, especially within the DragonBall community, a small minority who only just want that instant gratification, and care little about anything else.

[Cold Skin]

Basically, Goku doesn't become an angel but gets closer to the angels' way of being, so it's only natural that he adopts Angel-like traits (the silver hair and eyes and moves based on subtlety and evasion) and Vegeta doesn't become a God of Destruction but aligns with the way they are too, so it's natural for his body to adopt a more aggressive , savage and demon-like form (the veiny eyes, evil grin and the lack of eyebrows that was always stated in the series to be something that makes you look scarier, much to the regret of Gotenks when talking about his Super Saiyan 3 form and saying it compares to Piccolo's similar eyebrow-less scary face).

I like Goku going "angel form" and Vegeta going "demon form", it seems natural, complementary and it was always kinda part of their characters throughout the story, with Goku often depicted as very pure, viceless and innocent (at least as a kid) or outright shown as an angel with wings, and some of Vegeta's finest moments being more demonic (see his popularity as Majin Vegeta, the way he can let anger and pride dictate his actions, the many times he's willing to kill without mercy when Goku wouldn't do that, etc...).

Basically, just like the Angels mindset and its use causes Goku a transformation, the same goes for Vegeta and the GoDs mindset, after all, neither the Angels nor the GoDs showed transformations related to these philosophies, it's a Saiyan thing.

It's a part of the Saiyans' physical attributes that I like: their bodies are meant to alter their traits and transform when reacting to various things: state of mind, type of energy activated, reception of specific rays through the eyes when having a tail... Their bodies is meant to physically adapt to better suit and reflect the energy that flows inside, the level of power unleashed, the state of mind they adopt...

Other races might not show any transformation when using what they use, such as Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego or even just the Super Saiyan energy: when performing the ritual to become a Super Saiyan God, all Saiyans were auto-transformed by the Super Saiyan energy that was flowing around through them all, but Videl showed that humans (and probably most other races in the universe) would not go through the same morphological changes even if they had a way to create the same kind of "Super Saiyan" energy in them, displaying at best only golden hair that just flow with the wind of the ritual and don't get thicker, don't get spiked up, with no change in the eyes either.

Transforming and showing various physical traits depending on various factors is something specific to the Saiyans.

[PurestEvil]

I like Goku going "angel form" and Vegeta going "demon form"

Hakaishins are gods, not demons.

[pepd]

- Vegeta gets an immense power-up, but with what meaning? At least MUI was somehow thoughtfully explained.
Vegeta pulls out a form that calls back to the Destroyer Form tied to the Gods of Destruction. But as it turns out, this form has nothing to do with that power. What is the logical connection between 'Ultra Ego' and the 'destructive power of the gods'. I hope, but with a good chance that this is a vain hope, that an explanation will still be given. No, not everything has to be explained in great detail as far as I'm concerned, but here is really a serious hair in the butter in my opinion.

it was the fans who were assuming the form was a god of destruction transformation like Toppo's in the anime (where he needed to use it to perform the powers of the destroyers), but we had no context, it was just speculation. It is clear that the ''A God of destruction's power'' in the title of the chapter is about the destruction instinct and mentaility that Beerus taught Vegeta, which is also used by other destroyers (and which is what fits best with Vegeta's nature). the destruction technique is part of it because is fueled by this mindset. Just like ultra instinct it's a mentality shared by the angels (which is also what fits best with goku's nature).

like, people really need to read the beerus chapters at the beginning of this saga, there is the whole explanation of this power. it's not about destroyers' powers or angelic powers, these are forms run by instincts

I haven't actually said Vegetas new transformation was expected to become an actual Destroyers form like Toppo's. In the contrary.
Beerus was "educating" Vegeta about the mindset of a Destroyer (hence why Beerus set the example chapters back, otherwise that wouldn't have had any sense whatsoever). Why is it therefore ignorant to suggest it is at least somehow tied to a Gods of Destructions powers and abilities?
My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form, it's something else, but we don"t get an immediate explaination how the exact mechanism work. They should do that right away to my feeling, not within xx chapters, because this is rather confusing for readers.

It has something to with the hakaishin; it is -as Ponta said- Vegeta's embodiment of the hakaishin principles like Gokuu's transformation is of the MnG. I think the problem may be that you are even considering Toppo's anime form, when in the manga ("actual") hakaishin forms simply are not a thing.

[TheNingen]

I hate the ‘Goku steals the spotlight’ narrative. Goku along with Whis saved Vegeta’s life in Resurrection ‘F’, but people want Vegeta to win so much that they rather have him and the Earth die as long as Goku doesn’t win. And the only reason Vegeta even got a turn was because Goku got shot by a laser. Goku also busted his balls to beat Jiren in comparison to Jiren and he still only succeed because of Frieza and 17. Goku also didn’t win against Beerus. They were only spared because Beerus showed mercy.

And even if we ignore Zamasu after he lost his body, Trunks would be the hero.

Yes. Everyone's always like 'ZOMG GOKU ALWAYS WINS!!" Except...no. No he doesn't. As you mentioned, he didn't beat Beerus. Without Whis, he wouldn't have beaten Freeza. Without Freeza, 17, AND Vegeta, he wouldn't have beaten Jiren. And he didn't beat Moro alone either. Uub and Vegeta helped him.

The 'Goku steals the spotlight narrative' is almost as annoying as fans jumping the gun when leaks are seen and I'm really getting sick of it. If there is any narrative or motif Super is using and pushing, it is not "Goku is super awesome and gets everything done" it has been "Everyone working together is what saves the day." IE "Trust and teamwork saves the day." There is literally not a single fight in Super that Goku has won by himself. Hell, Goku hasn't even won a fight on his own since Freeza. I'm really getting sick of the Goku libel.

If there is anything I'm getting tired of in Super, it's that the antagonists or foes are really fucking boring. I don't know if it IS Toyataro's writing, or if it's Toriyama's writing, but every antagonist after Beerus has been super boring or bland. Super Freeza is most interesting in the ToP, and even Broly, but in Res F? Boring.

Moro? Boring and generic. And his arc doesn't help that it suffers from "So much is happening but nothing is happening" (as someone wrote earlier) Granolah? He's just another generic avenger like Sasuke. He lost all his people so he's dedicated his life to revenge and everyone who cares about him, he's disregarding in his search for power and abandoning his allies for the sake of revenge. We've seen it done.

I'm not expecting Dragon Ball to be Shakespeare. And I love Dragon Ball, but most of modern Dragon Ball has been about recycling it's own plots with not a lot of thematic through lines that give depth to the characters. How many times has the plot point "True strength is earned. Not given" been used? We JUST had this plot beat with Moro and now we're once again using it with Granolah, and soon enough, probably Gas.

I love Dragon Ball. I will always love Dragon Ball. And I'm kinda glad that Super Hero is looking like it's a goofy slice of life character driven thing with the action and fights taking a backseat. It's always seemed like Toriyama is more into it and engaged when he's doing gag manga stuff and letting the characters breathe and have fun. But I digress.

I personally don't considered Champa, Hit, Black, Zamasu, and Fusion Zamasu boring. I can get if you don't like them, but I actually never seen anyone accused them of being boring. Zamasu and Black are so meme-able that he has several videos with them just saying ningen. Resurrection 'F' Frieza is interesting to me is because he learned a lot from what happened on Namek and then somehow still made the same mistakes.

Jiren, I can understand why people call him dull, but I personally don't mind Jiren since he's pretty much Goku without the Dragon Balls to fix his mistakes and if he become completely fight obsessed to the point of becoming a loner.

"True strength is earned. Not given" been used?

That theme so far has only really been used twice in the manga, three if you want to count Black. But Black being a cheat wasn't the main theme of the Future Trunks Saga. Hit, Jiren, and Broly earned their power even if you say Broly was born strong.

For the most part, the pressing theme of Dragon Ball Super has been: Teamwork is better than working alone.

Goku got Super Saiyan God because of his friends and family even if he hated it. Frieza would have been no threat at all if Goku and Vegeta worked together. Black and Zamasu were so powerful because they worked so well together and it took a team effect to take him down and it was Goku making friends with Present Zeno that destroyed Infinite Zamasu. The TOP was all about trust and teamwork to the point that the effects of U7 together took down a foe who surpassed the gods. Goku and Vegeta teaming up and fusing took down Broly. Even the Moro arc had the teamwork element that in the end, even with a fully powered UI, it took a team to stop Planet Moro and it was a team effect that finally allowed Goku to control UI.

I wrote that post when I was exhausted, so I'm a bit embarrassed that I forgot about Black considering he's my favorite villain and I didn't exactly say my point as elegantly and specifically as I wanted to.

And although I like Hit, as an antagonist he is utterly boring to me because an honorable assassin is all he really has going for him in terms of personality. But he doesn't really leave an impact otherwise. And Champa is just fat Beerus. Just as immature, just as stubborn and a lover of food. He's a boring and bland antagonist to me as well. I kinda put the two prevalent themes that I have seen used over and over again together. Since I touched on the teamwork thing.

[Cold Skin]

I like Goku going "angel form" and Vegeta going "demon form"

Hakaishins are gods, not demons.

Yep, I know that, this is obvious in the story. I'm not talking about what angels and demons are in-universe, but the general idea that we usually have of them, hence the quotation marks I used to say it looks like this even if it's technically not the case.
When it comes to Goku and Vegeta's new forms, one is the calm, subtle, floating angel and the other is the brutal, violent, pain-loving demon if we exagerate.

The angel-demon opposition is obvious in the paths that Goku and Vegeta have taken, not in the Dragon Ball definition of them, but in the general concept of what feels more angelic and what feels more demonish. It looks obvious when putting those forms side by side.

Actual Gods of Destruction themselves are gods that are closer to concepts of demons than to concepts of angels and can be quite scary and sinister, both in appearance and in behavior at times.

[Mister_Popo]

My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form

Indeed. And the Ultra Instinct transformation isn't an actual Angel form, but is Goku's transformative appropriation of fighting principles embodied by Angels, which he's developed under Whis's (and Merus's) tutelage. Ultra Ego is simply Vegeta's transformative appropriation of principles already explained to be embodied by Gods of Destruction like Beerus, under his tutelage. That seems like a fairly unproblematic explanation, to me.

The explaination for Ultra Instinct is pretty obvious, the body moves on it's own, the angels have that ability as well.
That makes Goku a better martial artist.
But what exactly does make Vegeta a better martial artist here and how is that related to the gods ability to destruct?
And how does it exactly work? You stay very vague in your explaination without giving details on how the exact mechanism works, and then you say it's obvious?

We might as well admit we may eventually get an explaination (in best case) for the exact mechanism at the end (hopefully not within 10 chapters) but it's still headcanon and rather unclear at this point.

[HeroR]

Basically, Goku doesn't become an angel but gets closer to the angels' way of being, so it's only natural that he adopts Angel-like traits (the silver hair and eyes and moves based on subtlety and evasion) and Vegeta doesn't become a God of Destruction but aligns with the way they are too, so it's natural for his body to adopt a more aggressive , savage and demon-like form (the veiny eyes, evil grin and the lack of eyebrows that was always stated in the series to be something that makes you look scarier, much to the regret of Gotenks when talking about his Super Saiyan 3 form and saying it compares to Piccolo's similar eyebrow-less scary face).

I like Goku going "angel form" and Vegeta going "demon form", it seems natural, complementary and it was always kinda part of their characters throughout the story, with Goku often depicted as very pure, viceless and innocent (at least as a kid) or outright shown as an angel with wings, and some of Vegeta's finest moments being more demonic (see his popularity as Majin Vegeta, the way he can let anger and pride dictate his actions, the many times he's willing to kill without mercy when Goku wouldn't do that, etc...).

Basically, just like the Angels mindset and its use causes Goku a transformation, the same goes for Vegeta and the GoDs mindset, after all, neither the Angels nor the GoDs showed transformations related to these philosophies, it's a Saiyan thing.

It's a part of the Saiyans' physical attributes that I like: their bodies are meant to alter their traits and transform when reacting to various things: state of mind, type of energy activated, reception of specific rays through the eyes when having a tail... Their bodies is meant to physically adapt to better suit and reflect the energy that flows inside, the level of power unleashed, the state of mind they adopt...

Other races might not show any transformation when using what they use, such as Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego or even just the Super Saiyan energy: when performing the ritual to become a Super Saiyan God, all Saiyans were auto-transformed by the Super Saiyan energy that was flowing around through them all, but Videl showed that humans (and probably most other races in the universe) would not go through the same morphological changes even if they had a way to create the same kind of "Super Saiyan" energy in them, displaying at best only golden hair that just flow with the wind of the ritual and don't get thicker, don't get spiked up, with no change in the eyes either.

Transforming and showing various physical traits depending on various factors is something specific to the Saiyans.

Angels have white hair, not silver. Nor do they have silver eyes. They’re all a shade of pale blue. That and UI has been called the technique of the gods, not some Angel thing.

[HeroR]

it was the fans who were assuming the form was a god of destruction transformation like Toppo's in the anime (where he needed to use it to perform the powers of the destroyers), but we had no context, it was just speculation. It is clear that the ''A God of destruction's power'' in the title of the chapter is about the destruction instinct and mentaility that Beerus taught Vegeta, which is also used by other destroyers (and which is what fits best with Vegeta's nature). the destruction technique is part of it because is fueled by this mindset. Just like ultra instinct it's a mentality shared by the angels (which is also what fits best with goku's nature).

like, people really need to read the beerus chapters at the beginning of this saga, there is the whole explanation of this power. it's not about destroyers' powers or angelic powers, these are forms run by instincts

I haven't actually said Vegetas new transformation was expected to become an actual Destroyers form like Toppo's. In the contrary.
Beerus was "educating" Vegeta about the mindset of a Destroyer (hence why Beerus set the example chapters back, otherwise that wouldn't have had any sense whatsoever). Why is it therefore ignorant to suggest it is at least somehow tied to a Gods of Destructions powers and abilities?
My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form, it's something else, but we don"t get an immediate explaination how the exact mechanism work. They should do that right away to my feeling, not within xx chapters, because this is rather confusing for readers.

It has something to with the hakaishin; it is -as Ponta said- Vegeta's embodiment of the hakaishin principles like Gokuu's transformation is of the MnG. I think the problem may be that you are even considering Toppo's anime form, when in the manga ("actual") hakaishin forms simply are not a thing.

While true, Vegeta getting a new form based on his training with Hakai is very clearly inspired by Toppo. Toyo may have put his own spin on it like how SSBE in the manga doesn’t look like its anime counterpart, but we know where the idea came from. Doubly so if Vegeta’s form is purple.

My point exactly was: the end result of the training is clearly NOT an actual Destroyers form

Indeed. And the Ultra Instinct transformation isn't an actual Angel form, but is Goku's transformative appropriation of fighting principles embodied by Angels, which he's developed under Whis's (and Merus's) tutelage. Ultra Ego is simply Vegeta's transformative appropriation of principles already explained to be embodied by Gods of Destruction like Beerus, under his tutelage. That seems like a fairly unproblematic explanation, to me.

The explaination for Ultra Instinct is pretty obvious, the body moves on it's own, the angels have that ability as well.
That makes Goku a better martial artist.
But what exactly does make Vegeta a better martial artist here and how is that related to the gods ability to destruct?
And how does it exactly work? You stay very vague in your explaination without giving details on how the exact mechanism works, and then you say it's obvious?

We might as well admit we may eventually get an explaination (in best case) for the exact mechanism at the end (hopefully not within 10 chapters) but it's still headcanon and rather unclear at this point.

UI is way to understand because it’s base on a real world martial arts principle of learning to fight without the need of thought. Even outside of martial arts, you understand what someone means when they say they’re in the zone. The only explaination UI needed was how Goku got it. Either it was a die or fly transformation that gave awoken Goku’s inner power that had access to UI or it was created in response to remembering his past teachings that he forgotten.

UE, doesn’t have that real world base outside of the concept of standing your ground like the Earth-style from Toph. What’s funnier is I realize that Goku and Vegeta are basically Aang and Toph now. That said, even Toph’s style of fighting isn’t about just taking hits since you need to condition your body and make sure your opponents don’t hit vital areas. That and dampening blows.

[DiscountDabi]

I'm placing my bet now. By the end of the arc Granolah is gonna have his eyes both turn gold like the character Toki from Kintoki who he's based on.

[Thani]

Basically, Goku doesn't become an angel but gets closer to the angels' way of being, so it's only natural that he adopts Angel-like traits (the silver hair and eyes and moves based on subtlety and evasion) and Vegeta doesn't become a God of Destruction but aligns with the way they are too, so it's natural for his body to adopt a more aggressive , savage and demon-like form (the veiny eyes, evil grin and the lack of eyebrows that was always stated in the series to be something that makes you look scarier, much to the regret of Gotenks when talking about his Super Saiyan 3 form and saying it compares to Piccolo's similar eyebrow-less scary face).

I like Goku going "angel form" and Vegeta going "demon form", it seems natural, complementary and it was always kinda part of their characters throughout the story, with Goku often depicted as very pure, viceless and innocent (at least as a kid) or outright shown as an angel with wings, and some of Vegeta's finest moments being more demonic (see his popularity as Majin Vegeta, the way he can let anger and pride dictate his actions, the many times he's willing to kill without mercy when Goku wouldn't do that, etc...).

Basically, just like the Angels mindset and its use causes Goku a transformation, the same goes for Vegeta and the GoDs mindset, after all, neither the Angels nor the GoDs showed transformations related to these philosophies, it's a Saiyan thing.

It's a part of the Saiyans' physical attributes that I like: their bodies are meant to alter their traits and transform when reacting to various things: state of mind, type of energy activated, reception of specific rays through the eyes when having a tail... Their bodies is meant to physically adapt to better suit and reflect the energy that flows inside, the level of power unleashed, the state of mind they adopt...

Other races might not show any transformation when using what they use, such as Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego or even just the Super Saiyan energy: when performing the ritual to become a Super Saiyan God, all Saiyans were auto-transformed by the Super Saiyan energy that was flowing around through them all, but Videl showed that humans (and probably most other races in the universe) would not go through the same morphological changes even if they had a way to create the same kind of "Super Saiyan" energy in them, displaying at best only golden hair that just flow with the wind of the ritual and don't get thicker, don't get spiked up, with no change in the eyes either.

Transforming and showing various physical traits depending on various factors is something specific to the Saiyans.

Angels have white hair, not silver. Nor do they have silver eyes. They’re all a shade of pale blue. That and UI has been called the technique of the gods, not some Angel thing.

Spoiler:

It is very much an "Angel thing". Just not absolutely exclusive to them. The rest is correct, though.

[Melkaniator J]

My expectations on DBS are not high, never have been. So, I think it was a decent chapter, it once again delivered what many if not most DB fans want, action over story. I hope the next chapter delivers more plot though.

well i already fired a tweet tagging him without any abuse. also reminded that why the writer of DB AF can never be good.

So mature

i mean its clear what Toriyamam thinks of DB these days. Choosing the writer of DB AF as his successor lmao.

He doesn't have the throne yet. Actually I'm curious if by having DB for himself the series would finally feel fresh. In story AND art designs. Did Akira told Toyotaro that his design for Sugarians' eyes looked weird? Or I'm remembering wrong?

If that's the case weird could be good, or at least fresh. Sugarians' eyes are Zen-Oh style, A.K.A. the most generic eyes ever.

I think we're going to be in a cycle as long as a new creator is using old characters while being supervised by an old creator and a team of people whose sole purpose is to make tons of money from Dragon Ball.

Exactly!

Regardless, the need for fandoms to jump to toxicity and personally message creators on twitter when they don't like their creative decisions is just shitty, stupid and childish, and shouldn't be encouraged

100% this.

Why is it suddenly rude and and abusive to complain to a published writer over social media about their product

Because it was done in a rude, abusive manner, OBVIOUSLY.

god i hate these elitist jerks. i really hope western woke culture never gains that much foothold in my country

The fact you think this is somehow "woke" just proves you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Professional writers are professionals. They'll survive a fan calling them a stupid head.

Well, while it was obviously wrong to send such a rude message, I'm not worried about Toyotaro, there's no need to be a professional writer to just see that message as what it is, childish. Toyotaro probably had a good laugh and moved on.

[HeroR]

Spoiler:

It is very much an "Angel thing". Just not absolutely exclusive to them. The rest is correct, though.

Calling something 'technique of the gods' means exactly that. It's a godly technique and the angels despite their power aren't gods.

[pepd]

[snip]

It has something to with the hakaishin; it is -as Ponta said- Vegeta's embodiment of the hakaishin principles like Gokuu's transformation is of the MnG. I think the problem may be that you are even considering Toppo's anime form, when in the manga ("actual") hakaishin forms simply are not a thing.

While true, Vegeta getting a new form based on his training with Hakai is very clearly inspired by Toppo. Toyo may have put his own spin on it like how SSBE in the manga doesn’t look like its anime counterpart, but we know where the idea came from. Doubly so if Vegeta’s form is purple.

Sure. I was just referring to the influence of the consideration of anime hakaishin forms in the understanding of the WnG transformation. In a universe where hakaishin forms exist, the nature of the WnG transformation that is not a hakaishin form is very confusing; if you disregard the notion of hakaishin forms, not so much.

[Gt91]

I'm placing my bet now. By the end of the arc Granolah is gonna have his eyes both turn gold like the character Toki from Kintoki who he's based on.

Does he have bronze eyes now? Then silver and gold in the end of the arc

[Miracles]

It seems Granolah dove deeper into the revenge pool? First he is willing to sacrifice dang near all of his life for power, to grab vengeance.

Tosses Oatmeel away, after denying his pleas about Goku and Vegeta having nothing to do with the destruction of his planet.

Finally he goes to great lengths to fight Vegeta by destroying the very remnants of the city he cared for.

[Mr Baggins]

As DB's version of your obsessed avenger who can't be reasoned with, I think Granolah is a pretty competently written character. He might be one of Toyotaro's best.

The issue, for me, is that this archetype is severely played out in the broader scope of fiction. We've not only seen it done a million times before, there's no unique sort of spin on this kind of character to make him feel distinct from his fellow Sasukes and Scars and Lelouches and all the revenge guys from shonen. I really don't expect this particular type of story to diverge drastically from the variety of other ones I've experienced. I don't like to use the term "trope", but this would be a very common one.

Once upon a time, Dragon Ball was a manga that would set trends (and more impressively, sometimes spoof or subvert them in the same breath before they even became cool) instead of adhering to the current trends in its own medium. But at this stage, perhaps an argument can be made that the over-saturation of the shonen market since the 90's limits how original you can be as a comic writer. I sympathize with T&T.

Maybe the Heeters will add a fascinating layer to Granolah's character arc that we wouldn't otherwise get. I'd like to see that.