"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:59 pm

I don't care about TV special Bardock.

I just hate them painting this Bardock as a good person while he's in the middle of a genocide because he spared the main character of the arc. It's trite. It's not necessarily how Bardock acts, but the people reacting to him. Just minutes earlier he was helping commit genocide on cerealians and namekians, and 1 act of kindness later he's now being healed by Monaito. Vegeta is saying that Goku inherited his soft-hearted nature. Because he didn't kill any named characters, no one really cares, and more responsibility of the situation is being attached to the Heetas than was necessary.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:00 pm

The mystery of why Monaito lied to Granola is still there.

He could've lied to him because he didn't want him to know that his mom was killed because of him. Although, that could be easily omitted.
Or because he wanted Granola to stay away from the saiyans, knowing Bardock was the exception, not the rule. (Although, they were exterminated soon after)
Or, knowing the saiyans were no more, he let Granny believe his lie because he was still dealing with the Heatas, and knowing his nature, he'd try to kill them and get himself killed in return. So no, blame Canada.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:09 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:54 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Well, clearly we got some hints at that here. It's a consistent characterization and actually interesting to see unfold. It's too bad how it centers women less as having their own stories and more as being tools for the development of men, though. I guess if Toriyama actually commits and gives Bardock an outright mommy fetish it'd at least be self-aware.
To be fair, the flashback was told from Monaito's account, who was more concerned about telling Granolah about the Saiyan who saved him than his mother (due to the urgency of the situation).
I don't think so. The emotions are Bardock's, Monaito is simply serving as a voice for this I'm the present. This is just am in-universe framing of a scene that should have been frame out of universe and experienced by Gokuu in a different way within the story. It's very poorly thought out structuring from Toriyama.

Also, Bardock has a mommy fetish!
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:12 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:59 pm I don't care about TV special Bardock.

I just hate them painting this Bardock as a good person while he's in the middle of a genocide because he spared the main character of the arc. It's trite. It's not necessarily how Bardock acts, but the people reacting to him. Just minutes earlier he was helping commit genocide on cerealians and namekians, and 1 act of kindness later he's now being healed by Monaito. Vegeta is saying that Goku inherited his soft-hearted nature. Because he didn't kill any named characters, no one really cares, and more responsibility of the situation is being attached to the Heetas than was necessary.
Context is important.

Monaito should hate Bardock even though he’s actively protecting them? And to Vegeta, sparing even one person is being soft.

Bardock was literally in the process of committing a genocide; that’s the story telling you he’s a bad person. But he is doing this one good thing because it specifically reminds him of his people. He’s not being selfless here.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:13 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:53 pm But in Minus he's still committing genocide. The idea that this was the moment his softness took effect doesn't work.
If you think the intention was to make him not warlike, you misunderstand the point of Bardock's character. If you need particulars, Toriyama dives into it here.

Bardock's "softness" isn't being anti-genocide, it's his compassion for his family and companions. He isn't suddenly mad about the Cerealians being driven to extinction, and even he questions why he goes to dramatic lengths to help the remaining two in the chapter. Granolah and his mom reminded him of his family, so they were extended into that circle on a whim. There's not much more to it than that.

I won't disagree that this feels like a pointless insertion, though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:17 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:53 pm But in Minus he's still committing genocide. The idea that this was the moment his softness took effect doesn't work.

This is just exists because someone wanted to insert Bardock into the story. Monaito randomly survived the genocide, no reason for Granolah and his mom to do the same, there's no necessity to justify them being spared/saved in the story.
Because Bardock didn't become a good guy because of that action. This ''softness'' only took effect at that particular moment because the situation reminded him of Gine and Goku. He spared them both for selfish reasons. Toyo even mirrored the moment Muezli shoots Bardock with the moment Gine points at him in the flashbkack.

Despite that, I think this chapter could do more to paint Bardock as a genuinely asshole who just did something good out of caprice. We know he was part of the massacre of all those people, but he isn't shown killing anyone, probably so as not to make him look too bad for the audience. I think it got a weird middle ground because even in Toriyama's view we know that Bardock is only slightly better than other Saiyans, but he's still a mass murderer, and I don't think that here he's supposed to be showed as much different (because he's literally part of all this mess) despite that good action, but he ended up not looking that bad

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:22 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:09 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:54 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:45 pm Well, clearly we got some hints at that here. It's a consistent characterization and actually interesting to see unfold. It's too bad how it centers women less as having their own stories and more as being tools for the development of men, though. I guess if Toriyama actually commits and gives Bardock an outright mommy fetish it'd at least be self-aware.
To be fair, the flashback was told from Monaito's account, who was more concerned about telling Granolah about the Saiyan who saved him than his mother (due to the urgency of the situation).
I don't think so. The emotions are Bardock's, Monaito is simply serving as a voice for this I'm the present. This is just am in-universe framing of a scene that should have been frame out of universe and experienced by Gokuu in a different way within the story. It's very poorly thought out structuring from Toriyama.
you know what, I honestly agree that the events of this chapter would have been presented better if it wasn't in a manner of a story-telling.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:23 pm

We still haven't seen Granolah's reaction after the whole story has been told, but I hope the chapter addresses why Monaito didn't tell him this before.

It's easily possible to guess why (especially now that we know Monaito is aware of the Heeters' participation behind the scenes), but it would be good for Granolah to actually ask him this as it would be a natural question.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:24 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:22 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:09 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:54 pm

To be fair, the flashback was told from Monaito's account, who was more concerned about telling Granolah about the Saiyan who saved him than his mother (due to the urgency of the situation).
I don't think so. The emotions are Bardock's, Monaito is simply serving as a voice for this I'm the present. This is just am in-universe framing of a scene that should have been frame out of universe and experienced by Gokuu in a different way within the story. It's very poorly thought out structuring from Toriyama.
you know what, I honestly agree that the events of this chapter would have been presented better if it wasn't in a manner of a story-telling.
I feel like this is something an editor should have caught. Like, hell, send Gokuu back in time to watch these scenes or something. That would have been so much better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:24 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:22 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:09 pm

I don't think so. The emotions are Bardock's, Monaito is simply serving as a voice for this I'm the present. This is just am in-universe framing of a scene that should have been frame out of universe and experienced by Gokuu in a different way within the story. It's very poorly thought out structuring from Toriyama.
you know what, I honestly agree that the events of this chapter would have been presented better if it wasn't in a manner of a story-telling.
I feel like this is something an editor should have caught. Like, hell, send Gokuu back in time to watch these scenes or something. That would have been so much better.
sending him back in time would be unnecessary. Just present the story from the perspectives of the characters who took part in it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:31 pm

I don’t see a need to complicate things to that degree. A flashback works just as well.

Also, if we carry over the theme of letting go of the past from the previous chapter, then this chapter is another step forward. If you don’t know the past, it’ll just repeat itself. Clearing up the backstories is what will allow people to resolve their issues now.

Except for Vegeta. I don’t see how any of this affects him at the moment.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:34 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:13 pmFirst of all, none of this is a retcon. Toriyama didn't write the Bardock special. It was never part of his Dragonball.
Yeah, silly me. It's not as though Toriyama explicitly referenced the events of the Toei special and drew it into the Dragon Ball Manga...

Wait a second HE DID.
His design and confrontation with Freeza got retconned away, that much is undeniable.

But even so, what were fans left to think when Toriyama drew the end part of the Bardock Special from Freeza's point of view? That he just intended to make that one scene canon and nothing else? Yeah right(!)
Toriyama clearly folded the Bardock special into the original manga, you can be as pedantic as you like, but he drew it right there. There was simply no reason for him to redraw the entire special since that would be a waste of time and fans had likely already watched the special.

He didn't distinguish between "his Dragonball" and the Bardock special he simply said it gave Dragonball in it's entirety more depth
I felt as though even Dragon Ball had been given a little bit more depth.
– Akira Toriyama
There's a reason why Dragon Ball Kai, which was created "to be faithful to the original manga" (quoted from Kazuhiko Torishima, Toriyama's first editor) opens with the ending of the Bardock Special, Toei animation went out of their way to add the Bardock special to Dragon Ball Kai in order to make it faithful to "Toriyama's Dragon Ball", complete with Bardock's ability to see into the future.
I do remember it being quite well done. So I used that setting in the main story, as well.
-Akira Toriyama

Secondly, none of the narrative bits you've mentioned were done away with.
Oh I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Bardock actively tried to change the future in DB Minus... :roll:

Bardock having to share the same wretched, doomed fate as the species he so casually wiped out is a far more compelling narrative than any of the Nu-Bardock shit we've received since DB Minus.
I'd argue that Frieza's eradication of the saiyans in this new version is better, since they make a point to mention that he actually called them all back to the planet, whereas in the special saiyans could be all over the universe when he destroys Vegeta.
I will concede on this point though, the saiyans trying to assassinate Freeza in DBS Broly was also a nice addition.
If you want me to go more in depth about why the special sucks compared to what we have now, click my sig. I'd rather not rehash all those points again.
I read your "critique" and I'm not impressed in the slightest

Goku said "A low class warrior can surpass an elite if he works hard enough"

Nothing about Bardock's power level in the Special contradicts this, he was a low class warrior, who survived some suicide missions by the skin of his teeth, got a bunch on zenkais and got stronger... He was a low class warrior who worked hard for his power level... what's the issue?? Why would that suddenly mean Goku was DESTINED to be strong? Where's Radditz's 10,000 plus power level then??

Meanwhile Goku has supposedly 'inherited' his kind heart from Bardock. I guess Goku's good nature was just DESTINY and nothing to do with a bump on the head. Bravo Toriyama :lol:

In the Bardock special, Goku was sent to Earth, with zero emotional spectacle, he was just another cog in the wheel of the Freeza empire sent to Earth as a saiyan runt to eventually destroy it but instead with some extreme circumstances and hard work, grew up to protect it.

In DBS Broly he's sent with a melodramatic Superman-esque spiel and told NOT to look at the moon by his caring parents. The story of the saiyan saga is made into a joke, Goku's kind nature is supposed to contrast to the nature of his race as we witness the callous actions of Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta, but how are we supposed to take this seriously when his parents were just a couple of softies?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:49 pm

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:55 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:31 pm I don’t see a need to complicate things to that degree. A flashback works just as well.

Also, if we carry over the theme of letting go of the past from the previous chapter, then this chapter is another step forward. If you don’t know the past, it’ll just repeat itself. Clearing up the backstories is what will allow people to resolve their issues now.

Except for Vegeta. I don’t see how any of this affects him at the moment.
I assume this will be a factor in helping Vegeta get over his guilt over the Saiyans' past. Realizing the Saiyans were individuals and not a barbaric tribe of programmed robots probably helps.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:56 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 1:31 pm Also, if we carry over the theme of letting go of the past from the previous chapter, then this chapter is another step forward. If you don’t know the past, it’ll just repeat itself. Clearing up the backstories is what will allow people to resolve their issues now.
I'd considered that angle, but I doubt that's what the story's going for. If anything, this flashback thus far seems specifically designed to shift Granolah's target to the Heeters. Clearing up things will achieve the opposite effect of allowing him to let go of the past; presumably he'll be even more obsessed with his revenge, since he's now facing down the people who were directly responsible for his mother's death (unlike Goku and Vegeta, who had nothing to do with the attack on the Cerealians at all).

I do agree with that being the main theme of the arc, but my feeling is that some other cue after this backstory will truly get him to stop clinging.

If you've ever read Naruto, watch this become a classic Sasuke moment. :lol:
Last edited by Mr Baggins on Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm

I wonder what the Heeter's wish will be. Elec has stated over and over again he isn't interested in brute force. He considers Intel power, and all his moves in this arc has been exactly that. Manipulation. He even had a chance to send Granolah after Freeza and refused to do it. I don't think it'll be as simple as making Gas the strongest. Then again, this is Toyotaro

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:35 pm

I also think this will backfire. By telling the truth, Monaito wanted to stop the fight and prevent Granolah from killing himself and killing Goku and Vegeta. But knowing he's been working for decades for the same group that plotted his race's extinction (and his mother's death) will likely make him seek revenge more than ever, but only with other targets.

Freeza is still out after all, and he is also one of Granolah's targets. The difference is that this time, maybe Goku and Vegeta will try to help him in some way (since the Heeters tricked both, and Freeza should never be roaming in the universe freely in the first place)
OLKv3 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm I wonder what the Heeter's wish will be. Elec has stated over and over again he isn't interested in brute force. He considers Intel power, and all his moves in this arc has been exactly that. Manipulation. He even had a chance to send Granolah after Freeza and refused to do it. I don't think it'll be as simple as making Gas the strongest. Then again, this is Toyotaro
The way Elec mentions ''insurance'' at the end makes me think that even though the Heeters as a group want to be at the top of the universe's food chain using intel and money, they still want to have a backup like Gas to handle threats just in case (honestly, with the way DB works I don't see how they can be at the top of the universe without having at least one strong guy like Gas in the group to deal with more physical problems). But I also hope Toyo sticks with the idea of intel > power for the Heeters because it's much more interesting that way

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:42 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm I wonder what the Heeter's wish will be.
Hopefully not something as lame as opening gates for random prisoners who then get wasted as fodder :lol:
Out of them all only 7-3 had any real relevance. And Moro could have went and broke them out of jail by himself, no reason why he wasted a wish.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:01 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:00 pm I wonder what the Heeter's wish will be. Elec has stated over and over again he isn't interested in brute force. He considers Intel power, and all his moves in this arc has been exactly that. Manipulation. He even had a chance to send Granolah after Freeza and refused to do it. I don't think it'll be as simple as making Gas the strongest. Then again, this is Toyotaro
I just imagine something lame as:
- Able to travel during space and time, so he can spam infinite wishes over time :D then make Gas eternal and finally using his lifespan (infinite) to break his limits 8)

I don't think that Gas would renounce to his life just to be stronger than anything else.

Moreover I just notice that:
- Monaito was just a bit stronger than Kurinin in the 23th Budokai Tenkaichi with a PL of 213 (but weaker than Kami).
- Gas was probably beaten by Bardock who was probably towards his potential (around 10.000). So, basically over this 40 years surely he was a prodigy but nothing special compared to Frieza's trusted henchmen. This means that the other three were not so exceptional, even if in the present time Maki and Oil seem to be really good fighters.
- Elec is the weakest but the smartest of his gang?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:02 pm

Maybe immortality? Gas is quite strong I think, he just would have to wait until the guy in front of him gets tired, Homer's strategy vs Tatum. In that case, they should also wish for more patience because the Three Amigos don't get tired easily.

Maybe they'll seal the power of their enemies, like Android 21 did in Fighterz, so Gas can fight them.

I have no clue, it seems that the beneficiary is going to be Elecc, not Gas directly with some Zamasu/Granny-type wish, but honestly, after seeing what they the saiyans and Granny can do, and still wanting some piece of it, their wish has to be much more complex. Or just wish to be the strongest, just like Granny did.

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