"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:56 am

I wish that the "complete"/silver-haired form was just Goku's body/being/whatever not being ready for UI, so when he achieved it in the TOP he assumed a form in which he could utilize it, and that once he mastered the principles behind Ultra Instinct it would disappear. (Uh...does that make sense? I'm tired.)

To me that sounds like a reasonable way to have the silver-haired form not be used again, but I know it'll probably just become SSJ5.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am

Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:34 am Goku's UI in base wouldn't be as strong and powerful in silver.
Nonsense. That would only be the case if Tototaro decides to write it this way.. And sticks with it. And even then it still wouldn’t make sense. It will NEVER make sense. Since the silver haired form has no reality beyond UI.. None, nope, nothing. The only thing that made it silver in the first place was Goku’s state of mind, and his ability for his body to move on its own. Now they’ve retconned that aswell it seems. It’s all really strange. And nothing makes sense anymore.

New Base Goku = Silver haired UI < SSJ Post UI-induced Base form.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:10 am

ZodiacBeast wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:56 am I wish that the "complete"/silver-haired form was just Goku's body/being/whatever not being ready for UI, so when he achieved it in the TOP he assumed a form in which he could utilize it, and that once he mastered the principles behind Ultra Instinct it would disappear. (Uh...does that make sense? I'm tired.)

To me that sounds like a reasonable way to have the silver-haired form not be used again, but I know it'll probably just become SSJ5.
It should be thrown away in the garbage can. Permanently! Just like all the other forms that aren’t SSJ1.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:22 am

I assume since Saiyans have to transform in order to access their full power, the silver-haired form is the way in which Goku can access the full might of his transformations in-tandem with Ulta Instinct's unique reflexes and optimization of movement.

Whis' statement last arc that UI boosts durability puts a wrench into this theory though.

Hopefully the Omen and MUI forms are explained, since they really never fit in well with the other UI characters who required no such transformation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:34 am

People were clowning on Heroes for Goku being able to use UI at will...How the tables have turned... Toyotarou bout to make it even worse and give UI to Base Goku in minutes after he learns about being able to do so.
P O W E R

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:57 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am
Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:34 am Goku's UI in base wouldn't be as strong and powerful in silver.
Nonsense. That would only be the case if Tototaro decides to write it this way.. And sticks with it.
But he did write this way. He said the silver form should be used as a trump card. Let’s not forget Goku’s base form doesn’t have god ki.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:02 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:34 am People were clowning on Heroes for Goku being able to use UI at will...How the tables have turned... Toyotarou bout to make it even worse and give UI to Base Goku in minutes after he learns about being able to do so.
It makes sense for Super to borrow some elements from Heroes, since it's like one of the most popular videogames in Japan. It's just logical. I'm expecting even more borrowed elements from Heroes in the future.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:22 am

FRIEZA with UI or HAKAI THEORY!!!!

What If the reason this arc was a Toriyama manuscript, was because it has Frieza? By that I mean, what if Frieza through the use of 73 is the final villian of this arc?
Ultra instinct Frieza?
But what if this is his final arc because he will be Hakaied and permanently erased this time
While its true that Frieza makes money and is popular, his character has gotten stale and repetitive, also consider they brought back Broly, who is also popular and makes money.
Toei cares about money but Toyatoro is a fan who tries to give to the fans.
This is probably correct and also why the Moro arc was so good... It was his arc.

Toyatoro is a fan like us, he wrote fanfiction before being on Toeis payroll.
Sure the money probably influences him.
But he understands where we come from, as a fan himself.

Unfortunately Toriyama is probably more into the money side of things. But that's because he understands Toei and corporatism and greed.

But I think tho, if the frieza theory is possible. It would be a great way to do the whole "frieza vs the gods" thing that the anime tried to hint at in T.O.P

73 and his backup of Moro or Merus power would be a great way, in conjunction with the Dragon Balls to have such as thing go down

This is why I think Frieza and whatever he does in this arc...is a Toriyama design.
Remember Granola and 73 are Toyatoro designs.
As is the Moro arc.
Also consider Toriyama has been working on this for awhile.
What if he was waiting for Toyatoro to come up with something (i.e Moro arc and 73)
So he could write a easy way for Frieza to get stronger to be a threat to the gods ?
My theory on 73 is that he has the power backup of Merus and possibly Moro
I.e A way for Frieza to get UI

Or 73 just copies Granolahs power and Frieza uses the Dbs to extract that power from 73
But if 73 still has Merus power(I think) then that could be the key to the Heaters or Frieza getting stronger than everyone.
Remember Elec wants to meet Zuno to ask about the Dbs.
He may also ask about their "Granolah problem"
What if Zuno tells them everything about 73 and then we and the Heaters, find out he has angel powers still?

But I'm curious if the Frieza stuff is Ultimately Toriyama, because if it is, then this is why the Moro arc happened and why 73 was saved

Their are two fates for Frieza:
He gets redeemed which is possible

Or he remains a villian and has to be removed permanently because he will get stronger to the point that it may cause a god involvement (i.e this arc if he gets UI or Hakai from Granolahs or Merus powers )

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:20 am

On paper, having UI Freeza as a villain and needing to hakai him for good doesn't sound bad to me. The problem is it would present the same issues Moro had with UI. Just 'grabbing' the technique isn't effective, it's short-lived and sort of a ticking time bomb. Freeza would need to train his body for it, last time his body couldn't even handle his golden form, let alone UI. Goku trained for years and lasted only seconds during the ToP.

About 7-3's stored data, how is that info/power suppose to be used by non-ki-absorbing characters? how could Freeza or Gas acquire it? how can they make it their own? can regular characters absorb energy that is, let's say, resting in a certain container? I can see Vegeta using spirit fission to manage it, or villains like Moro or Buu, but could someone "ordinary" like Piccolo, who happened to walk by where that energy was extracted and stored, take it and become much more powerful? he can just put his hand over it, slurp and bam?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:27 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:20 am On paper, having UI Freeza as a villain and needing to hakai him for good doesn't sound bad to me. The problem is it would present the same issues Moro had with UI. Just 'grabbing' the technique isn't effective, it's short-lived and sort of a ticking time bomb. Freeza would need to train his body for it, last time his body couldn't even handle his golden form, let alone UI. Goku trained for years and lasted only seconds during the ToP.

About 7-3's stored data, how is that info/power suppose to be used by non-ki-absorbing characters? how could Freeza or Gas acquire it? how can they make it their own? can regular characters absorb energy that is, let's say, resting in a certain container? I can see Vegeta using spirit fission to manage it, or villains like Moro or Buu, but could someone "ordinary" like Piccolo, who happened to walk by where that energy was extracted and stored, take it and become much more powerful? he can just put his hand over it, slurp and bam?
Frieza is different from Moro as his race is uniquely talented for raw power and training. He has always been a tank when it comes to heroes and their powerful attacks.

He tanked the Spirit Bomb, was able to overpower SSJB Goku, trained in the afterlife through image training, and came back with his perfected golden frieza.
He even tanked Hakai energy....twice.

Frieza may not have the same issues as Moro if he gets UI or Hakai.

As for how they get the copied power of Merus or Granolah?
The Dragon Balls!
They use the easy ones(Cerealiean Dbs) and make a wish to "extract and transfer" the copied power, either to Frieza(likely) or Elec

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:55 am

jd55513 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:27 am
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:20 am On paper, having UI Freeza as a villain and needing to hakai him for good doesn't sound bad to me. The problem is it would present the same issues Moro had with UI. Just 'grabbing' the technique isn't effective, it's short-lived and sort of a ticking time bomb. Freeza would need to train his body for it, last time his body couldn't even handle his golden form, let alone UI. Goku trained for years and lasted only seconds during the ToP.

About 7-3's stored data, how is that info/power suppose to be used by non-ki-absorbing characters? how could Freeza or Gas acquire it? how can they make it their own? can regular characters absorb energy that is, let's say, resting in a certain container? I can see Vegeta using spirit fission to manage it, or villains like Moro or Buu, but could someone "ordinary" like Piccolo, who happened to walk by where that energy was extracted and stored, take it and become much more powerful? he can just put his hand over it, slurp and bam?
Frieza is different from Moro as his race is uniquely talented for raw power and training. He has always been a tank when it comes to heroes and their powerful attacks.

He tanked the Spirit Bomb, was able to overpower SSJB Goku, trained in the afterlife through image training, and came back with his perfected golden frieza.
He even tanked Hakai energy....twice.

Frieza may not have the same issues as Moro if he gets UI or Hakai.

As for how they get the copied power of Merus or Granolah?
The Dragon Balls!
They use the easy ones(Cerealiean Dbs) and make a wish to "extract and transfer" the copied power, either to Frieza(likely) or Elec
The explanation given for UI wasn't really character or race-base, it's how UI works, an angel technique not to be taken lightly, and like I said, with all his extraordinary capacities, his body still needed time to make the golden form his own, and it was a natural power, from within and obtained through valid means. This would be someone else's power he stole.
Also, Moro was "built" to take energy from other sources, even planets, if his body couldn't get away with absorbing UI, I find it hard to believe someone else could.
Freeza basically "robbing" it and using it without trouble would break what the past arc established and what motivated that particular climax.

Yeah, the DBs could be a good choice and a good way to bypass the physical requirements of UI without crapping all over what's been established. We still don't know if Granolah has gotten away with it just yet. Granolah already opened Pandora's box with his wish, so it'd make sense if the villains start asking for power-related wishes.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:51 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am
Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:34 am Goku's UI in base wouldn't be as strong and powerful in silver.
Nonsense. That would only be the case if Tototaro decides to write it this way.. And sticks with it. And even then it still wouldn’t make sense. It will NEVER make sense. Since the silver haired form has no reality beyond UI.. None, nope, nothing. The only thing that made it silver in the first place was Goku’s state of mind, and his ability for his body to move on its own. Now they’ve retconned that aswell it seems. It’s all really strange. And nothing makes sense anymore.

New Base Goku = Silver haired UI < SSJ Post UI-induced Base form.
Transformations always boosted power levels. Goku using UI [state of mind] in SSJ would be no comparison to his Silver haired using UI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:25 pm

Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:51 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am
Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:34 am Goku's UI in base wouldn't be as strong and powerful in silver.
Nonsense. That would only be the case if Tototaro decides to write it this way.. And sticks with it. And even then it still wouldn’t make sense. It will NEVER make sense. Since the silver haired form has no reality beyond UI.. None, nope, nothing. The only thing that made it silver in the first place was Goku’s state of mind, and his ability for his body to move on its own. Now they’ve retconned that aswell it seems. It’s all really strange. And nothing makes sense anymore.

New Base Goku = Silver haired UI < SSJ Post UI-induced Base form.
Transformations always boosted power levels. Goku using UI [state of mind] in SSJ would be no comparison to his Silver haired using UI.
False! If anything, once the power is mastered in Base form, which it IS right now!, transformations will actually make him WEAKER! As they sap too much strength and energy. Just maintaining transformed requiers too much effort = energy = strength loss. At this point it would literally be dumb for Goku to take on any transformation other than his regular Super Saiyan state (which he mastered during the Cell Arc.) Transformations wear you down. They slow you down. Just like Elder Kaioshin stated to Gohan after he unlocked his Ultimate power. Why would you choose to wear a heavy coat when you can walk freely without one? You’d be much lighter! You’d be much faster and much more efficient! Nothing will slow you down! (As by definition, Goku already HAS the UI’s full power in Base!)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:58 pm

You can’t have it both ways Toyotaro and Toriyama. Make up your damn minds. Either the silver haired version should be the only state in which Goku has UI, and thus has full relevancy again! (As it was BEFORE this chapter), or Goku has all the power in Base.. You can’t have a little bit here, and a little bit there. It’s one or the other. It’s ALL or Nothing!

Either Goku has ZERO Ultra Instinct capabilities in Base, and EVERYTHING in Silver (as it was before), OR He has 100% in Base, and the silver haired form will simply vanish...
(As it logically loses its meaning this way. Duhh.)

We don’t need any complications or confusions right now. We’ve had enough of those already in the past. Toyotaro and Toriyama need to make up their minds. That is all.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:02 pm

I don’t see any problem so far about the silver form being the strongest, as it uses the most of Goku’s energy. This concept you are presenting would only make sense if Goku learned to tap into god ki without transforming, which requires further development.

The only issue right now (which I believe can easily be resolved) is how he can reduce the stamina drain of his strongest form by using the opposite principle of the training he did against Cell. He is hinting at Goku learning to preserve energy without thinking, which is a further step beyond moving without thinking. Though, I will hold it until the clarification happens.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:03 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:25 pm
Miracles wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:51 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:07 am
Nonsense. That would only be the case if Tototaro decides to write it this way.. And sticks with it. And even then it still wouldn’t make sense. It will NEVER make sense. Since the silver haired form has no reality beyond UI.. None, nope, nothing. The only thing that made it silver in the first place was Goku’s state of mind, and his ability for his body to move on its own. Now they’ve retconned that aswell it seems. It’s all really strange. And nothing makes sense anymore.

New Base Goku = Silver haired UI < SSJ Post UI-induced Base form.
Transformations always boosted power levels. Goku using UI [state of mind] in SSJ would be no comparison to his Silver haired using UI.
False! If anything, once the power is mastered in Base form, which it IS right now!, transformations will actually make him WEAKER! As they sap too much strength and energy. Just maintaining transformed requiers too much effort = energy = strength loss. At this point it would literally be dumb for Goku to take on any transformation other than his regular Super Saiyan state (which he mastered during the Cell Arc.) Transformations wear you down. They slow you down. Just like Elder Kaioshin stated to Gohan after he unlocked his Ultimate power. Why would you choose to wear a heavy coat when you can walk freely without one? You’d be much lighter! You’d be much faster and much more efficient! Nothing will slow you down! (As by definition, Goku already HAS the UI’s full power in Base!)
Merus told Goku that the current strength he had now would make UI more stable [CH. 63]. When Moro took Merus power [UI] all of his abilities boosted. Even Goku told Moro his body can't handle such power [CH. 65]. So I don't know where you are getting that transformations will actually make UI weaker.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:02 pm I don’t see any problem so far about the silver form being the strongest, as it uses the most of Goku’s energy. This concept you are presenting would only make sense if Goku learned to tap into god ki without transforming, which requires further development.

The only issue right now (which I believe can easily be resolved) is how he can reduce the stamina drain of his strongest form by using the opposite principle of the training he did against Cell. He is hinting at Goku learning to preserve energy without thinking, which is a further step beyond moving without thinking. Though, I will hold it until the clarification happens.
Headcanon. As Toppo also had “God ki” in the manga in his regular Base form. He didn’t have any transformations at all.

Goku has UI mastered in Base now, so the chance of him having “God ki” in Base, is QUITE HIGH!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:30 pm

Here it is.

Goku can’t sense Toppo in his base form. His regular and only state that he was born in. Goku has now mastered UI in Base (it seems..) Therefore, the likelihood of him having God ki in Base is quite high Hugo.

Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GalaxyBusterBuu » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:48 pm

Wait isn't MUI a form or a technique? Or is it both? I can't tell. Can someone explain this to me?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:37 pm

Geekdom is posting fake news and misinformation again.
(At best it’s unconfirmed rumors stated as fact)

He’s saying that Goku’s new “Base State” is only at “Omen” Level, as opposed to what Whis clearly stated is that it was MUI’s full “technique” (at least) in Base..!

Even if you DO believe that the silver haired version makes Goku “stronger”, you believe that, because you still believe that the transformation itself is a “power boost” where you get stronger ki.. (I personally don’t believe that is the case, as you all know my stance on it by now) but that doesn’t matter in this case at all, as I was just trying to make a point here.

And that’s different from what Geekdom is falsely claiming here.

Geekdom falsely claims that Goku’s new Base form has a level of “technique” only equal to the lowly evolved “Omen” stage of Ultra Instinct... Which is downright disrespectful and pathetic! Obviously after all this training (and mastering the REAL Ultra Instinct) Goku’s technique is now MUCH better than the Sign/Omen’s version of UI!

I’m getting real tired of Geekdom these days.. I have to correct everything these YouTubers say and constantly have to play “Policeman” because they fuck up every single time because they can’t think critically it seems.

Whis clearly said to Goku that he needs to master “UI” in Base.. (UI is the silver haired version! Not the black haired version which is not UI but UI “Sign”).

Now you can still believe that the transformation makes Goku stronger afterwards.. (That doesn’t change my point here, and has no barring on it whatsoever.)

We’re talking purely about the accuracy of the technique itself here!

Geekdom is lazy... He doesn’t think things through like I do! He just wants to make dragon ball content for YouTube so he can make money.

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