"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lukmendes]

It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

At the lastest yeah, in BoG Roshi is the first one to say that Vegeta surpassed Goku, and he didn't know that Beerus had defeated SS3 Goku, so he had no way of knowing how Vegeta surpassed Goku unless he could sense ki.

And well, I agree about your points of Goku being weird in the manga in ToP, that point would only work if Goku wasn't training with Whis, since Goku has been relying on a way to power up and not much else around Boo saga (Even understimated how bad SS3 would fuck him up, and understimated Boo's healing), but he's been training with Whis who's been teaching him those basics, even at some point forbidding him from transforming while training, so suddenly making Goku be only "I NEED MORE POWER!" was odd... Still like that being reminded of other masters connect with UI, even if Kaio being there makes no sense if you know his actual training...

One thing worth keeping in mind though, Goku did go for "Even if it destroys my body, I need power to win!" before, which is what he did against Vegeta and Freeza when he used the highest Kaioken he had available, but it doesn't make much sense for him to do it to Jiren, against Vegeta and Freeza he was fighting some evil asshole who was going to kill everyone if they won, and while if Goku lost to Jiren everyone he knew would die, he doesn't point that out and just wants power to be able to beat Jiren, so against Vegeta and Freeza is was about stopping that huge threat, and against Jiren it's just his pride, funny that it could work if they just tweaked his motivation a bit lol.

[The gr]

I was starting to be under the impression that maybe I started to grow a dislike for Dragon Ball itself considering how overhyped this new manga arc is by the majority of the fandom.

Christ I thought I was the only one who felt like this.

I've been losing interesting for a while for the DBS manga, I guess this all happen when I start rewatching DB/DBS and other franchises to the point this manga became a low priority on my readlist

[Block88]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who is absolutely disliking this arc under basically every aspect.
I was starting to be under the impression that maybe I started to grow a dislike for Dragon Ball itself considering how overhyped this new manga arc is by the majority of the fandom.
Surely not having a weekly series going on has been slowly killing my hype, but this arc being so boring is only making things worse. It doesn’t help how awfully paced it has been so far, it’s so obvious that Toyotaro has been buying time because the higher-ups still haven’t decided just what the fuck they have to do regarding Dragon Ball’s future (and most importantly, regarding the future of this manga), or probably already have and are forcing him to slow things down.
I just can’t wait for this arc to be over to see what comes next, and hopefully it will be a story written by Toriyama, even if just an outline.

Thank you it’s to see people hyping this arc when it’s nothing remotely that good at all

[TKA]

Stop thinking in terms of "overhype" or "underhype". People like what they like; who are you to determine if they should or shouldn't like something? A more interesting discussion is talking to people and seeing why they like this arc instead of wholly dismissing them. batistabus gives a review every chapter where he goes over what he liked; you can start reading there.

What I see, typically, is that people enjoy the mystery aspect of this arc and a villain that you can't just outmuscle. This means Goku and Vegeta will have to outthink him instead of outflexing him.

Those are pretty understandable reasons to like something. Whether it works for me or you doesn't really matter.

[AnimeNation101]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who is absolutely disliking this arc under basically every aspect.
I was starting to be under the impression that maybe I started to grow a dislike for Dragon Ball itself considering how overhyped this new manga arc is by the majority of the fandom.
Surely not having a weekly series going on has been slowly killing my hype, but this arc being so boring is only making things worse. It doesn’t help how awfully paced it has been so far, it’s so obvious that Toyotaro has been buying time because the higher-ups still haven’t decided just what the fuck they have to do regarding Dragon Ball’s future (and most importantly, regarding the future of this manga), or probably already have and are forcing him to slow things down.
I just can’t wait for this arc to be over to see what comes next, and hopefully it will be a story written by Toriyama, even if just an outline.

Thank you it’s to see people hyping this arc when it’s nothing remotely that good at all

How can anyone be so ignorant as to believe that just because you dont like something, it means that the thing is factually “not remotely good at all”?

Have you not heard of a little thing called opinion or taste? Is it really THAT shocking that so many people are liking this current arc that you happen to dislike?

[Miracles]

I found it completely out of place for Roshi of all people to remind Goku of his early trainings and to not rely only on power, considering it was him who trained Goku only physically, with Korin, Popo/Kami and Whis being the ones who tried to teach him something more substantial than “just get stronger lol”.
It’s even weirder because not only did Roshi retire in order to let the next generation take over (which was one of the main themes of the manga that Toriyama and company are completely forgetting nowadays) but he also was never even considered worthy of training under Kami, and he shouldn’t know of any other teachings Goku received besides Korin’s ones. Also, thinking about it, since when did Roshi even learn how to sense ki? Was that Battle of Gods?

And for Goku to look like a complete amateur was silly. This is the same Goku that Cell was calling “a seasoned veteran” and who constantly got praise for his fighting skills and intelligence and always surpassed every single master he had besides Whis in little time. The fact he wasn’t as strong as Jiren shouldn’t be an excuse to make him look like a clueless fighter. In this regard, the anime treated ToP Goku much, much better. Same for Roshi.

TOEI randomly gave Goku UI, through being overcome by large amounts of energy. It was not good writing. While Toyotaro coherently continued Dragonball manga canon with principles from Toriyama's story. Goku looking back at a CERTAIN ASPECT of his teachings didn't make him look like an amateur. He was so focused on the power side for the latter part of Dragonball he forgot about the spiritual side of battle. Cell's golf claps was concerning Goku's power and are meaningless to this specific subject on what Roshi and Whis are addressing.

Roshi trained under Korin who in turn taught Goku principles of UI. So Roshi would know about it. Roshi didn't only train Goku physically but he also reminded him of his mental teaching, similar to UI, about martial arts being about "not losing to oneself" and not just about beating the opponent through power. Which is in line with the internal self discipline taught by Kami Korin, Popo and Whis. Roshi is very consistent with the theme presented here.

I guess Goku is back to his “only power counts” mood ever since the ToP ended because he hasn’t been able to achieve Ultra Instinct again, right?
Or maybe it was always supposed to be something which had to happen randomly.

Goku was stated not to have mastered UI. So it's not suppose to happen randomly.

[emperior]

TOEI randomly gave Goku UI, through being overcome by large amounts of energy. It was not good writing. While Toyotaro coherently continued Dragonball manga canon with principles from Toriyama's story. Goku looking back at a CERTAIN ASPECT of his teachings didn't make him look like an amateur. He was so focused on the power side for the latter part of Dragonball he forgot about the spiritual side of battle. Cell's golf claps was concerning Goku's power and are meaningless to this specific subject on what Roshi and Whis are addressing.

Roshi trained under Korin who in turn taught Goku principles of UI. So Roshi would know about it. Roshi didn't only train Goku physically but he also reminded him of his mental teaching, similar to UI, about martial arts being about "not losing to oneself" and not just about beating the opponent through power. Which is in line with the internal self discipline taught by Kami Korin, Popo and Whis. Roshi is very consistent with the theme presented here.

I guess Goku is back to his “only power counts” mood ever since the ToP ended because he hasn’t been able to achieve Ultra Instinct again, right?
Or maybe it was always supposed to be something which had to happen randomly.

Goku was stated not to have mastered UI. So it's not suppose to happen randomly.

But he was able to attain it through thinking of his old trainings and Master Roshi could use something similar to Ultra Instinct, so how come Goku can’t do the same? Has he forgotten about all that stuff once again? The unmastered UI is the Omen one, so he should at least be able to already use that at will in the manga.

[Block88]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who is absolutely disliking this arc under basically every aspect.
I was starting to be under the impression that maybe I started to grow a dislike for Dragon Ball itself considering how overhyped this new manga arc is by the majority of the fandom.
Surely not having a weekly series going on has been slowly killing my hype, but this arc being so boring is only making things worse. It doesn’t help how awfully paced it has been so far, it’s so obvious that Toyotaro has been buying time because the higher-ups still haven’t decided just what the fuck they have to do regarding Dragon Ball’s future (and most importantly, regarding the future of this manga), or probably already have and are forcing him to slow things down.
I just can’t wait for this arc to be over to see what comes next, and hopefully it will be a story written by Toriyama, even if just an outline.

Thank you it’s to see people hyping this arc when it’s nothing remotely that good at all

How can anyone be so ignorant as to believe that just because you dont like something, it means that the thing is factually “not remotely good at all”?

Have you not heard of a little thing called opinion or taste? Is it really THAT shocking that so many people are liking this current arc that you happen to dislike?

I'm aware and I don’t care this arc had a nice start and now already tedious and pretty much filler at this point.
What exactly make this arc good remotely? Outside of Buu getting a bit of spotlight and info on the grand kai and uub there’s worth hyping this arc about.

[Block88]

Stop thinking in terms of "overhype" or "underhype". People like what they like; who are you to determine if they should or shouldn't like something? A more interesting discussion is talking to people and seeing why they like this arc instead of wholly dismissing them. batistabus gives a review every chapter where he goes over what he liked; you can start reading there.

What I see, typically, is that people enjoy the mystery aspect of this arc and a villain that you can't just outmuscle. This means Goku and Vegeta will have to outthink him instead of outflexing him.

Those are pretty understandable reasons to like something. Whether it works for me or you doesn't really matter.

I don’t mind the whole villain can’t be outmuscled situation if toyo actually go more in-depth with his magic and be creative with it then typical energy drain
As his main draw.

Maybe I used a poor choice of words but that’s doesn’t change how mediocre this arc has been outside clarifications with Buu

[Miracles]

I guess Goku is back to his “only power counts” mood ever since the ToP ended because he hasn’t been able to achieve Ultra Instinct again, right?
Or maybe it was always supposed to be something which had to happen randomly.

Goku was stated not to have mastered UI. So it's not suppose to happen randomly.

But he was able to attain it through thinking of his old trainings and Master Roshi could use something similar to Ultra Instinct, so how come Goku can’t do the same? Has he forgotten about all that stuff once again? The unmastered UI is the Omen one, so he should at least be able to already use that at will in the manga.

Goku still has to master the mindset of attaining UI. Severing mind from body takes practice.

[Koitsukai]

I find UI much more out of nowhere in the manga than in the anime(aside of Whis's training that is forgotten in the manga ToP as it never happened and Roshi's lessons were needed, and aside also Goku's UI training by hiring Hit in the anime). In the manga he just looks at Roshi, and tries it, it is portrayed as if it was something he can just activate on command, get a hold of yourself, relax and there you go, like Sherlock Holmes going into his Mind Palace. Goku made it look so easy, like Majin Buu looking at a technique and then doing it himself. I'm saying it is shown in a way that it makes no sense he can't achieve it anymore. In the anime it activates on it's own, making it much more logical for Son Goku to be incapable of getting it again, even though he has been working on a UI mindset since after RoF, while in the manga 2 seconds before going UI he was crazy for more power even going Kaioken!
Funny note: Whis looked like a terrible master, Vegeta dropped his teachings and got a great power up, then Roshi with a demostration gets Goku way farther than Whis ever did in months of training.

Back to Moro:
I think it was a missed opportunity to not have Moro have some useful henchmen so the high notes from the ToP could become handy at some point once again. Piccolo, Gohan and 17 (if Moro is in fact weaker than the Blues and at first was weaker than SSGod, Gohan and 17 might be useful even against him) could have their spotlight and drag the arc a little more without feeling it forced like it does now. It feels like they are dancing around the final fight, stalling until next month's 20th.
Also, I see the point of those who claim Moro is lacking on the magic department, but his full magic power meant eating and throwing planets and meteorites. I believe now that he has recovered all of his magic, will showcase that and more. I hope.

[dblack]

Hoping this arc is a lead-in to EoZ. The buu/uub/lord of lords info drops have seemed out of place. So kid buu retained the god ki and magic-sealing abilities of the lord of lords. Seems like uub should have them now. Thinking Goku will bring him up when things get ugly next battle and he will save the day by sealing Moros magic. With the reveal that he has god ki, Goku now has a reason to go on his EoZ training binge with him.

[TKA]

I don’t mind the whole villain can’t be outmuscled situation if toyo actually go more in-depth with his magic and be creative with it then typical energy drain
As his main draw.

I disagree. He doesn't need to be using a DnD spell sheet to present this kind of problem. The villain's abilities as is do a fine job of pushing Goku and Vegeta out of their comfort zones.

The argument I think you want to be making is that the villain just having energy drain is boring. If you agree with me that that is your argument, then I really don't have much to say to that. It's perfectly acceptable to be bored by the one gimmick.

Maybe I used a poor choice of words but that’s doesn’t change how mediocre this arc has been outside clarifications with Buu

This is a completely different issue. I don't think this arc is mediocre, I think this arc is bad. I'm just saying that talking about other people's enjoyment of it (over/underhype) is pointless. I could go on and on about how much I hate that people support the Super anime, but that is pointless, so instead I talk about the anime itself and its various flaws. Likewise, speak about the arc's shortcomings in your eyes rather than focus on who likes it or not.

I find UI much more out of nowhere in the manga than in the anime(aside of Whis's training that is forgotten in the manga ToP as it never happened and Roshi's lessons were needed, and aside also Goku's UI training by hiring Hit in the anime). In the manga he just looks at Roshi, and tries it, it is portrayed as if it was something he can just activate on command, get a hold of yourself, relax and there you go, like Sherlock Holmes going into his Mind Palace.

This is a really bad take.

The entirety of the Super manga has been building up to UI, given the lessons Whis keeps drilling into them. Then, at the very start of the arc we see Beerus use a version of it that allowed him to be trouncing the other gods of destruction. Finally, the entirety of the arc we have Goku actively trying to powerup to beat Jiren because he knows he needs another form to do it, and fails at it.

Then, Roshi comes in and executes a rudimentary version of it. Seeing this and remembering the training from all of his previous masters instead of relying on his Saiyan genes like he'd been doing for the entirety of Z to that point allowed him to tap into Ultra Instinct. Except because he hadn't trained for that, his body couldn't handle moving like that and broke down.

That's WAY more thought, build up and foreshadowing than the anime's troglodyte execution. "And den goku get hit wit da spirit bomb and transform."

Absolutely ridiculous.

[Koitsukai]

I find UI much more out of nowhere in the manga than in the anime(aside of Whis's training that is forgotten in the manga ToP as it never happened and Roshi's lessons were needed, and aside also Goku's UI training by hiring Hit in the anime). In the manga he just looks at Roshi, and tries it, it is portrayed as if it was something he can just activate on command, get a hold of yourself, relax and there you go, like Sherlock Holmes going into his Mind Palace.

This is a really bad take.

The entirety of the Super manga has been building up to UI, given the lessons Whis keeps drilling into them. Then, at the very start of the arc we see Beerus use a version of it that allowed him to be trouncing the other gods of destruction. Finally, the entirety of the arc we have Goku actively trying to powerup to beat Jiren because he knows he needs another form to do it, and fails at it.

Then, Roshi comes in and executes a rudimentary version of it. Seeing this and remembering the training from all of his previous masters instead of relying on his Saiyan genes like he'd been doing for the entirety of Z to that point allowed him to tap into Ultra Instinct. Except because he hadn't trained for that, his body couldn't handle moving like that and broke down.

That's WAY more thought, build up and foreshadowing than the anime's troglodyte execution. "And den goku get hit wit da spirit bomb and transform."

Absolutely ridiculous.

There is no defending the genki dama bit (but it was just a one time thing only, later UI activations were better developed and out of his control, UI activates in a much harder way than in the manga: being against the ropes) just like there is no defending Goku just activating UI at will like he was recalling a memory and after the ToP not even trying it at all. If you activate it three times the way the manga portrayed it, just by relaxing and bringing it down, you are paving the way so that in the following arc you'll use it much more often. The "I can't use it anymore" makes more sense in the anime than in the manga.

[emperior]

There is no defending the genki dama bit (but it was just a one time thing only, later UI activations were better developed and out of his control, UI activates in a much harder way than in the manga: being against the ropes) just like there is no defending Goku just activating UI at will like he was recalling a memory and after the ToP not even trying it at all. If you activate it three times the way the manga portrayed it, just by relaxing and bringing it down, you are paving the way so that in the following arc you'll use it much more often. The "I can't use it anymore" makes more sense in the anime than in the manga.

I’ve been saying the same thing for a while. It seems like people like to focus on the “awesome” build-up the manga had (or rather, the almost non-existent build-up shoehorned-in at the last minute from the beginning of US arc) and fail to realise that, by having Goku achieve Ultra Instinct that way, Toyotaro wrote himself in a corner.
People can call the anime’s take idiotic and whatever they want, but at least it explained quite well why Goku can’t use Ultra Instinct at will and how being pushed to his limits over and over won’t do it because he will become accustomed to the feeling - it also fits with what’s quite clearly Toriyama’s idea for it: it happened casually. Like it or not, that’s quite obviously what the author wrote, or else he would have Goku use it in the movie.
If I were a manga-reader only I would have asked myself why Goku didn’t use Ultra Instinct against Broly when watching the movie in theatres.
“What happened to your Ultra Instinct?” “It hasn’t appeared for a while” isn’t a good excuse to justify Goku not being able to use it when his master was able to use a rudimentary version of it to avoid the punches of a freaking God of Destruction level foe.
Honestly I believe that if it weren’t for the anime and people who make confusion between the two mediums, everyone would be wondering just what the heck is wrong with Goku not being able to use UI in the manga.

[Miracles]

In terms of consistency of gaining UI, the anime failed. UI omen Goku was randomly triggered by huge energy twice [Genki and Kefla]. Then to achieve the mastered UI state he did what the manga did by throwing away harmful emotion. Now he can't get it again with no reason.

In the manga Whis stated Goku needed more training to maintain UI. Goku gave that same reason when Vegeta asked him about it. That he had to grind with no shortcuts. The manga has the consistent plot when it comes to UI, TOEI went from, huge energy, to internal discipline.

[OLKv3]

I liked the arc until Moro and our heroes got hit with plot stupidity. Moro just stops draining them for reasons

[Koitsukai]

I believe the genki dama bit has been misinterpreted and also badly explained by the show. It is consistent with Goku being against the ropes, his body being forced to the utmost limit to survive, which happened the three times UI happened. The genki dama just forced Goku beyond his limits only because he fought it back. Kefla's ki didn't wake UI up, it made his body feel the same danger it felt when struggling with the genki dama, actually being outclassed by that kind of power did the job, the ultimate flight or fight response. I don't see randomness here.

We can discuss if it was a good or a bad idea, but it was the challenge his body needed to break it's limits and to let go of the thinking part, basically getting KO'd, thus, explaining the out of nowhere new transformation/technique appearence: it was pure luck, he had to face his own ultimate attack and without even trying it he hit the jackpot. A true shortcut.
He wasn't ready to get there on his own, he depended on a huge external factor and by abusing of that knowledge he managed to fully grasp how it works. So no harm done, he was lucky enough to experience UI, but he'll have to break his -now, higher- limits to get there again, or keep on training.

In the manga, there is no external factor to justify Goku's miraculous new power up and latter loss of said power, he got there on his own, with ease, by going back to basics, seemed ready and better at it every other time, but then... he loses it and suddendly isn't ready at all.
Then what was that glimpse? in the anime, it was due to his body facing threats he never faced that risked his life. In the manga well he needs to keep on training and hanging out Roshi. Which is weird because he clearly took huge steps in the ToP by, on his own, understanding UI without his body being forced into it, so he shouldn't be back to the start like in the anime.

In both mediums Goku wasn't ready, in the anime he got it thanks to an external factor, in the manga he was damn ready at the ToP activating it like a boss but now he is not ready at all. Oh well.

[Miracles]

I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.

[Kaiza_Toshiyuki]

I think you are doing what a lot of the fandom does concerning the anime. Trying to rationalize TOEI's randomness with headcanon that was never in the story [Which proves that TOEI's writing is bad in itself]. Whis stated Goku trying to overcome the energy of the Genki and failing as it went inside him caused UI. We see this theme carried on with Kefla, where Whis and Beerus state it was due to kefla's massive energy that rivaled the Spirit bomb awakening UI. Being KO'd was never the reason stated to separate thought from body in the anime.

The manga is the most consistent with the theme of UI since the past principles of Goku are the fundamentals to Whis teachings on UI. Goku simply has to train more in order to access and use it. Goku has to train his spirit in order to use UI.

I agree. When people try and add their own headcannon as explanations, you are basically writing the show for them (Which is what they want).

The manga's version is far more consistent, even thought him just turning on Ultra Instinct was a bit iffy for me. Especially when he forgot how to do it for some reason even thought all he had to do the first time was remember his old training. Don't see why he can't just do that again now after the fact, but you know what it doesn't bother me all that much.