"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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TKA
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:07 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:50 pmThese developments are rushed tho If you were given more time with this version of Bardock I.e (a small side manga explaining things)
Not everything needs to have a whole story arc around it. Not everything needs to be serialized.

The vast majority of times, it's better to leave people wanting than to give them too much. Marvel has eroded people's understanding of this, tbh. Now everything is prequel, a spinoff, or a sequel (yes, I recognize that Super itself is a sequel, but do we really need a spinoff off a sequel?).

I guess this really isn't @ you and is just more a complaint of the fandom in general. In more Dragonball-specific terms, you often see it when people say "Raditz was wasted." Like, what? You want a Raditz story now? Some characters are just small players. Bardock is the same. As has been said many times in the past few pages, he has no relation to Goku outside of being the sperm donor, so he doesn't play any role in the series. Giving an extravagant backstory to a character that will only be relevant for 2 chapters is some Star Wars Expanded Universe shit.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:17 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:50 pm Questions I have that are hopefully explained in the future:

How does Vegeta know Bardock and him being soft hearted.

Who is the older Namekian that gave Monaito the balls someone that seems to be a equivalent of Guru from Namek seems pretty important to not get a hand waved esque death.
1) Vegeta was obviously listening to Monaito speaking about how Bardock saved Granolah
2) The old namekian is definitely a Grand Elder. We saw enough of him, the chapter can only show so much.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:25 pm

I have to say...Bardock as the father of Granolah was one of the silliest fan "theories" ever conceived for the Dragon Ball franchise. It's so bad that I didn't even want to acknowledge it. But the fact that this baited people is kind of hilarious:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:39 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:25 pm I have to say...Bardock as the father of Granolah was one of the silliest fan "theories" ever conceived for the Dragon Ball franchise. It's so bad that I didn't even want to acknowledge it. But the fact that this baited people is kind of hilarious:

Image
Image

That was an almost Moffatian-tier bait by the legend Toyotaro.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:20 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:17 pm
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:50 pm Questions I have that are hopefully explained in the future:

How does Vegeta know Bardock and him being soft hearted.

Who is the older Namekian that gave Monaito the balls someone that seems to be a equivalent of Guru from Namek seems pretty important to not get a hand waved esque death.
1) Vegeta was obviously listening to Monaito speaking about how Bardock saved Granolah
To add to this, Vegeta was literally partnered with Raditz for decades.

That a reader needs something so easily reasoned explained to them is sorta baffling.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GoodboiRaditz » Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:19 am

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:26 am

batistabus wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:25 pm I have to say...Bardock as the father of Granolah was one of the silliest fan "theories" ever conceived for the Dragon Ball franchise. It's so bad that I didn't even want to acknowledge it. But the fact that this baited people is kind of hilarious:

Image
Damn, this is amazing. I wish this image was the only leak we got

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinPopo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:51 am

TKA wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:29 am I previously said people are taking this hereditary kindness thing much too literally.

This puts it well. Courtesy of Cipher.

Boy do I wish Dragonball discussion wasn’t often times so infantile. If people can’t agree on the barebones of just the plot, it makes more substantial discussion nigh impossible.

You can’t talk about the pro immigration, anti-imperialist, pro-BLM aspects of Batman v Superman if you’re stuck in endless debates about whether Thug #483 got killed by Batman or not.
To be fair, the fiction involving the actual story and the characters is far more important and interesting than the propagandistic meta-fiction dreamed up by sad bitter bourgeoise liberals in a mainstream cookie-cutter industry who thinks they're fighting the power, while sharing every opinion that said "power" tells them to. If people were interested in reading their political screed of it's own inherent value, they wouldn't feel the need to use comic books/movies as a platform to push it.

That is, people pick the far more interesting topic to discuss.

In fairness to you, sure it can be fun to discuss metatextual things, and analyse it from that perspective, but if you're going to do that, personally I think it's a far more fascinating endeavor to analyze how different people can see the same piece of work and experience entirely different understandings of it.

Experiencing different perspectives and analyses of a piece of fiction is much more rewarding, from an intellectual level and a human level. It brings people together in fruitful discussion, rather than your seeming annoyance that people don't want to discuss very specific ideological bands in fiction with you.

That probably stands slightly at odds with my earlier statement, but I guess that's worthy of analysis itself!
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:07 pm I dunno, I quite like the fact that, despite Vegeta's assumption that Goku gets something of his character from his father, the story actually makes clear that Bardock is the one being challenged and changed in an unexpected (and in this case, undesired) way by Goku, even without Goku consciously doing anything to make that happen - that is, just like Goku has done with so many other characters in Dragon Ball, to varying degrees. There's just something about him that makes people confront themselves, even against their previous inclinations, and there always has been.

While it's not some amazing thing that makes the Chapter anything really special, I do think it's a neat little extra variation on something that's well-established in Dragon Ball as a whole, and which has continued to be highlighted as relevant as recently as the previous arc (and which ties in further with Bardock's decision in Minus and Broly). I enjoyed that.
Hey, I hadn't really considered this viewpoint, but I really like your take on it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:48 pm

TKA wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:07 pm
ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:50 pmThese developments are rushed tho If you were given more time with this version of Bardock I.e (a small side manga explaining things)
Giving an extravagant backstory to a character that will only be relevant for 2 chapters is some Star Wars Expanded Universe shit.
But that's exactly what they've done--twice now (or thrice if you consider that weird special where he goes back in time).


I feel like I have to keep repeating myself, but my beef with this chapter does not come down to "plot holes," nor do I need a full on arc to explain it. I mean I even attempted to make a version in a post that simplified the matter to simply being Bardock letting Granolah go. Instead it becomes this whole thing in which several characters have decided to bring about vengeance on each other based on past actions, which solely serves as artificial tension when Gas inevitably takes on Goku for revenge against Bardock. Its' bad because it's fanservice level storytelling that entirely reminds people "oooh remember this character?"

Part the reason why I was so excited about this arc because it really felt like they were learning the right lessons from their contemporaries. The first couple of chapters felt very "unDragonball" and nearly everything with Vegeta felt like they really were trying to do something different. But this chapter just felt like such an unfortunate retread that I'm now worried about where this arc is going to go after this.

And while sure..you're probably right that we're not supposed to take what Vegeta says literally, that does not mean the chapter does not want to make that connection: There's clear symmetry in the actions that Bardock takes in this chapter, and what Goku has done in his own life. And its a decision that I don't much care for. It has nothing to do with me stanning for Bardock, just that its changes don't do anything for the storytelling or characters. It just feels like a cheap way to extend a franchise that has long since run out of gas.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:51 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:48 pm It just feels like a cheap way to extend a franchise that has long since run out of gas.
lmao
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:52 pm

UUUUUUUUUUGH. :x

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:26 pm

Trust me, the next chapter will have plenty of gas. :wink:

Anyway, I've seen some saying there might be some sort of deal between Bardock and that gang. Whatever happens, I just hope there's also an actual fight. It's been a decade since we actually saw a Bardock fight in a manga, and for those who don't consider it, then we never saw Bardock fighting in a manga. It's time. The man himself in action (and seemingly humiliating!) is something to be witnessed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:34 pm

I'm with Grimlock. If you don't like this version of Bardock so far, at least wait until next chapter before you make up your mind. It might have what you're looking for.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinPopo » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:38 pm

Trouser wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:35 pm Same here. I really like that every armor has blue and yellow colors (and now dominant is green). It's army after all, so everyone should look the same or similarly. I never liked that in the previous materials Saiyans and Frieza goons had armors with different colors, it was a mess in my opinion.
I feel like a variety of colours would appeal to Frieza's sensibilities, or at least not really bother him for entirely the same reason that he keeps the Ginyu Force employed despite their personality quirks and dancing poses. If you're recruiting from many different races and species you have to make some concession for personal expression to function as a vaguely cohesive force. The Freeza style armor is distinctive in shape, which is more recognizable in shape than similarly coloured soldiers would be. Perhaps it also aids in targeting and other battle strategies.

Given the wide galactic spread of the cultures recruited for the Freeza Force, it would also stand to reason that not every Freeza Planet or recruit got the same armour upgrades at the same time.

The ramshackle yet-high tech nature of the armour seems fitting for an eclectic bunch of intergalactic battlers. But given the elite nature of the Saiyan race within the Freeza force (until their inevitable destruction) it would make sense that there would be a high armour turnover rate and thus a constantly improving or changing set of armour across a time period, so I'm not really bugged in any way by Bardock's armour style changing shape.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:40 pm

Also Goku would go out of his way to help people in trouble in front of him. Bardock wouldn't, which is why he himself is lampshading he's suddenly acting weird.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:37 pm

MajinPopo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:38 pm I feel like a variety of colours would appeal to Frieza's sensibilities, or at least not really bother him for entirely the same reason that he keeps the Ginyu Force employed despite their personality quirks and dancing poses.
I like your post. I'm not sure what you mean about Freeza's sensibilities. The Ginyu Force makes him blush, so he just kind of lets it slide. Also, they're amongst the most elite of his army.
If you're recruiting from many different races and species you have to make some concession for personal expression to function as a vaguely cohesive force.
The point of an army is to unite a group of diverse individuals under one cause. So while they may be diverse in species, they are united under the whim of Freeza.
Given the wide galactic spread of the cultures recruited for the Freeza Force, it would also stand to reason that not every Freeza Planet or recruit got the same armour upgrades at the same time.
This is a good point. Although Vegeta specified that the armor he took on Namek was an older model, it's plain to see that even Saiyans from the same village can have different armor. The design philosophy is the same, so I guess that's what Freeza cares about. Despite the new models of armor in RoF, Freeza continued to wear his older style.
But given the elite nature of the Saiyan race within the Freeza force (until their inevitable destruction) it would make sense that there would be a high armour turnover rate and thus a constantly improving or changing set of armour across a time period, so I'm not really bugged in any way by Bardock's armour style changing shape.
I think the Saiyans as a unit might be elite, but not individually. Even Vegeta - the strongest of the Saiyans - was about on par with Kui for a while, and they were both well below Zarbon or Dodoria. Regardless, I agree that they would have a high armor turnover rate. Even if Saiyans aren't elite individuals, you can probably get more battles out of them.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:33 pm

So I thought about it. Reread the chapter (again) and went out of my way to reread Minus...and I'll concede(only a bit).

It's clear that there's a schism between how the Saiyans were interepreted in Z, and how they're interpreted post-Minus. Basically, Saiyans are now just a group of people in which genocide is just a job. Whereas Z would depict them as monsters, it's clear going forward that Saiyans are being depicted as more complex and more human. I don't think that's inherently bad, and it at least provides a bit more context as to why Bardock is a bit more chill here. I still don't agree with everything here, and I particularly don't like how they're trying to connect everyone within this flashback, but I feel a little bit better about it.

I'm not discounting the arc yet, but I'm definitely a bit more wary.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:00 pm

It's never black and white anyway. You can appreciate the current depiction of Saiyans (more accurately Toriyama's depiction of them, since the original run never directly shows us their home life) and of Bardock while simultaneously finding his appearance in the arc contextually contrived or artificial. I do so far.

At least it's a fun chapter in a vacuum.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:40 pm

The Saiyans really aren't difficult to understand. They are born as sociopaths but are capable developing empathy, some more so than others. Goku inherited Bardocks higher than average ability for developing empathy, and the hit to his head as child greatly increased that ability.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:44 pm

kemuri07 wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:33 pm So I thought about it. Reread the chapter (again) and went out of my way to reread Minus...and I'll concede(only a bit).

It's clear that there's a schism between how the Saiyans were interepreted in Z, and how they're interpreted post-Minus. Basically, Saiyans are now just a group of people in which genocide is just a job. Whereas Z would depict them as monsters, it's clear going forward that Saiyans are being depicted as more complex and more human. I don't think that's inherently bad, and it at least provides a bit more context as to why Bardock is a bit more chill here. I still don't agree with everything here, and I particularly don't like how they're trying to connect everyone within this flashback, but I feel a little bit better about it.

I'm not discounting the arc yet, but I'm definitely a bit more wary.
The Saiyans were made out as monsters in Z because that was their reputation. As their prince, Vegeta - the true Saiyan we've seen the most of - perhaps most fits the Saiyan stereotype. In the Minus/Super era, we get to see things from the Saiyan homeland. They're not one-dimensional monsters. They are complicit, or outright guilty, of heinous crimes.

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