"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
nineko
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat May 14, 2022 6:38 pm
Location: italy
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by nineko » Sun Aug 21, 2022 3:37 am

As I said in another topic, I think he didn't kill them because he's not stupid and he knows that killing them would be pointless at this time. They have friends who can access at least four sets of Dragon Balls, Beerus can ask Whis to resurrect them, and they can trade lives with the Kaiohshins apparently, so they wouldn't stay dead for long anyway, unless Freeza pulls extensive preparations in advance. And, despite his claim of knowing everything about the universe, there is no evidence that he knows about New Namek or the Kaiohshin realm.

Besides, didn't he mention that he was interested into overturning the order of the gods at some points? Perhaps that's his new greater goal.

You know what they say, if you are in the jungle with a friend, and a lion runs after you two, you don't need to run faster than the lion, you only need to run faster than your friend.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:31 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:11 pm The end of Freeza? Honestly, I'd argue that we haven't seen enough of him as a main actor. He was great in the Tournament of Power and Broly, but got reduced to a mere cameo in the Galactic Prisoner and Granolah the Survivor arcs.

That said, I agree that the powering up is ridiculous at this point. It was an entire arc of unnecessary power creep that added nothing to the bigger picture.
Well its main purpose is "Oooh strong! Shiny new! Toy sell!" I think it's good for that. Otherwise, I agree.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Aug 22, 2022 9:50 pm

I actually like Black Freeza. Like most of the recolors in Super, it's a very flippant, tongue in cheek transformation that's just having fun with itself, but it also gives Freeza a little bit of agency; where "gold" was chosen to mock the Super Saiyans in a fit of obsessive rage and payback, "black" is more fully representative of who Freeza the villain is. It shows that he's probably moved on from revenge at this point, or at least the senseless, hasty kind.

It's just a shame that its introductory chapter had to be the "get out of jail free" card from a real stinker of an arc. It felt more like relief than entertainment, although there's some degree of the latter in isolation.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am

I don’t know how people aren’t reading Black Freeza as the tongue-in-cheek thematic closing to the arc it’s meant to be—while everyone was obsessing over, and cheating their way to, top slot, the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work, and shows up at the end to ruin their day.

Most of the arc takes itself quite seriously, but it’s a total comedy-of-errors ending, and as far as Black Freeza goes as a plot point, that’s its role. It’s a very Toriyama ending gag. It makes Granolah and the Heatas’ struggles “pointless,” but in a way that reinforces the themes Vegeta first brings up against Granolah during their fight.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 16503
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:12 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am I don’t know how people aren’t reading Black Freeza as the tongue-in-cheek thematic closing to the arc it’s meant to be—while everyone was obsessing over, and cheating their way to, top slot, the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work, and shows up at the end to ruin their day.

Most of the arc takes itself quite seriously, but it’s a total comedy-of-errors ending, and as far as Black Freeza goes as a plot point, that’s its role. It’s a very Toriyama ending gag. It makes Granolah and the Heatas’ struggles “pointless,” but in a way that reinforces the themes Vegeta first brings up against Granolah during their fight.
I very much like this reading. It's especially funny considering Freeza is so often framed as being a 'cheater' of sorts or not the particularly hardworking type and yet now he's spent the past three fights having trained his body and spirit to overcome Gokuu and the others. An actually funny gag!
She/Her💕 💜 💙
progesterone princess, estradiol empress
Lucifer's bimbo daughter

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:42 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work
This statement applies to Goku and Vegeta every bit as much as it applies to Freeza, and both of them
near consistently failed. If this is the main theme (it isn't, by the way — Bardock spells out the arc's theme in Chapter 83, and Monaito repeats it in 84) then it's poorly conveyed and insincere. The previous arc is the one centrally about "earning your power", and since that's paid off through the characters it actually follows, it's presented more meaningfully. "Hard work over shortcuts" is rarely even a talking point in this one.

I said I liked Black Freeza, but calling this a thematic closer means nothing when it mainly exists to wrap up a very long, very pointless slog of a fight that took up the majority of the arc's runtime.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:27 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:42 pm
Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work
This statement applies to Goku and Vegeta every bit as much as it applies to Freeza, and both of them
near consistently failed. If this is the main theme (it isn't, by the way — Bardock spells out the arc's theme in Chapter 83, and Monaito repeats it in 84) then it's poorly conveyed and insincere. The previous arc is the one centrally about "earning your power", and since that's paid off through the characters it actually follows, it's presented more meaningfully. "Hard work over shortcuts" is rarely even a talking point in this one.

I said I liked Black Freeza, but calling this a thematic closer means nothing when it mainly exists to wrap up a very long, very pointless slog of a fight that took up the majority of the arc's runtime.
Both Goku and Vegeta constantly rise above the wish-recipient fighters, and help expend the bulk of Gas’ lifespan before Freeza even arrives. They already very much show the shortsightedness of the wishes on their own—Freeza just drives that home as the punchline.

Finding their own style is another side thread of the arc, and while it does feel a bit aside, it also tracks well enough with the effort idea. Gas and Granolah have beats tying into it as well.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:11 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:27 pm Both Goku and Vegeta constantly rise above the wish-recipient fighters, and help expend the bulk of Gas’ lifespan before Freeza even arrives. They already very much show the shortsightedness of the wishes on their own—Freeza just drives that home as the punchline.
Vegeta loses to Granolah, or ends up stalemating him at best. Their rising above Gas at various points is either due to Gas not being serious, the protagonists having more battle/technique experience (something Granolah himself benefits from constantly, despite being a wish recipient), or holding to their resolve and accepting their nature without dwelling on elements of the past — the arc's actual core theme.

None of those factors are specifically undermined by the wish; Granolah and Gas are occasionally mentioned to be at a disadvantage because they lack experience, yet they both improve mid-fight and close the gap anyway. Freeza coming in out of nowhere and cleaning house is a punchline, but doesn't read as a distinctly thematic one. While working hard to earn your strength is diametrically opposed to taking shortcuts, that's more a thread of the Moro arc than this one.

That's not to say that the wish isn't framed as being shortsighted, but certainly not in that sense. It's just shortsighted because they're not accustomed to their new powers, which they later adjust to, and because Gas keeps expending his lifespan.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:36 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:11 pm Vegeta loses to Granolah, or ends up stalemating him at best. Their rising above Gas at various points is either due to Gas not being serious, the protagonists having more battle/technique experience (something Granolah himself benefits from constantly, despite being a wish recipient), or holding to their resolve and accepting their nature without dwelling on elements of the past — the arc's actual core theme.

None of those factors are specifically undermined by the wish; Granolah and Gas are occasionally mentioned to be at a disadvantage because they lack experience, yet they both improve mid-fight and close the gap anyway. Freeza coming in out of nowhere and cleaning house is a punchline, but doesn't read as a distinctly thematic one. While working hard to earn your strength is diametrically opposed to taking shortcuts, that's more a thread of the Moro arc than this one.

That's not to say that the wish isn't framed as being shortsighted, but certainly not in that sense. It's just shortsighted because they're not accustomed to their new powers, which they later adjust to.
You don’t see a connection between Vegeta’s words to Granolah about the title of strongest being a fleeting one and Freeza’s punchline appearance at the end?

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:46 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:36 pm You don’t see a connection between Vegeta’s words to Granolah about the title of strongest being a fleeting one and Freeza’s punchline appearance at the end?
Do you not understand what I'm saying about thematic connections?

Freeza's punchline is that he trained for 10 years in some other dimension, and thus wasn't counted by the wish. Vegeta's words are in connection with Vegeta improving during battle (something not at all mutually exclusive with Granolah/Gas), not "working hard" elsewhere. It's all right there in the chapter.

It also doesn't constantly come up in the arc and revolve around nearly all the characters' motives, unlike the stated central theme.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:02 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:46 pm Do you not understand what I'm saying about thematic connections?

Freeza's punchline is that he trained for 10 years in some other dimension, and thus wasn't counted by the wish. Vegeta's words are in connection with Vegeta improving during battle (something not at all mutually exclusive with Granolah/Gas), not "working hard" elsewhere. It's all right there in the chapter.

It also doesn't constantly come up in the arc and revolve around nearly all the characters' motives, unlike the stated central theme.
I think you might be getting too hung up in specifics?

Vegeta tells Granolah the title of strongest is fleeting, and proves it by surprising him during their fight. Granolah has to push himself even further to come back out on top. (Or really just come out even.)

Vegeta and Goku may not fully defeat Gas, but they and Granolah surpass him (and their previous selves) multiples times over the course of their fight to cause him to burn through more and more lifespan, to the point he’s a walking corpse even before Freeza arrives. The goalpost of “strongest” is moved back considerably from where it is when he first starts the fight, and he pays with his lifespan to maintain it.

Freeza is then the comedic capstone to all of that. The goalposts are always moving as others around you put in effort. He was removed from the parameters of the wish to allow for the comedic timing of his reveal on a plot-level, but he could have come back and surpassed Gas a month later, a year later, etc. Heck, even an hour later, just as Gas had already been surpassed and pushed to the point of being skin and bones within the span of an afternoon. There’s no shortcut to getting to and staying on top.

It’s a little messy, but it’s way too present to be an accident. Maybe the specific verbiage of “hard work” is the hangup here, but whatever the case, the arc repeatedly highlights these supposedly strongest fighters quickly being stripped of their posts, and primarily by fighters improving themselves via more traditional (for this far-flung martial-arts fantasy) means—the idea of it being a fleeting title and a silly goal.

User avatar
Mr Baggins
Regular
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:04 am

Cipher wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 5:02 am Maybe the specific verbiage of “hard work” is the hangup here
Yep, I think it's that. I got the impression you were arguing something different than the point you were trying to get across, so we were probably talking past each other for a bit. S'all good.

I don't disagree that there's some recurring general idea (or smaller sub-theme) about the title of "strongest" being fleeting, but I wouldn't say it's quite prevalent enough to be a central one. I'm also not convinced that Granolah and Gas, in general, were presented with enough hard-hitting consequences for this wish to be the "curse" that the arc sometimes wanted to portray it as — Granolah turns out mostly swell, his lifespan expenditure is pretty arbitrary and meaningless in the context of the narrative, and he even enjoys a lot of the exact same fighting advantages Goku/Vegeta get throughout the arc, and for the same reasons — though your mileage may vary.

You said you didn't get why people weren't reading Freeza's appearance as the thematic capstone to the arc it was meant to be, and I'm saying that's probably because the story doesn't dwell on the concept very often. When it does, it tends to be in context of the Oracle Fish's prophecy, which Whis teases that Freeza may not have been the subject of anyway. To me, this primarily reads like the arc's most talked-about figure making a surprise appearance to relieve everyone from having to continue engaging in a repetitive, ultimately pointless conflict... which is fine, but it is what it is.

But hey, Black Freeza's rad. I hope he's more relevant in the next arc.
Review scores for the DBS manga (and movies):

User avatar
Skar
I Live Here
Posts: 2206
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:47 am

I saw a theory that Black Freeza could be a pun/reference to black ice. That would be interesting since you don't see black ice coming and no one expected Freeza to show up at the end.

NeoKING
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1432
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by NeoKING » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:08 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am I don’t know how people aren’t reading Black Freeza as the tongue-in-cheek thematic closing to the arc it’s meant to be—while everyone was obsessing over, and cheating their way to, top slot, the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work, and shows up at the end to ruin their day.

Most of the arc takes itself quite seriously, but it’s a total comedy-of-errors ending, and as far as Black Freeza goes as a plot point, that’s its role. It’s a very Toriyama ending gag. It makes Granolah and the Heatas’ struggles “pointless,” but in a way that reinforces the themes Vegeta first brings up against Granolah during their fight.
Right. The whole thing is supposed to be ironic. I didn’t even take Whis lines at the end seriously neither. It’s typical DB “There’s always someone stronger” themes.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:25 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am I don’t know how people aren’t reading Black Freeza as the tongue-in-cheek thematic closing to the arc it’s meant to be—while everyone was obsessing over, and cheating their way to, top slot, the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work, and shows up at the end to ruin their day.

Most of the arc takes itself quite seriously, but it’s a total comedy-of-errors ending, and as far as Black Freeza goes as a plot point, that’s its role. It’s a very Toriyama ending gag. It makes Granolah and the Heatas’ struggles “pointless,” but in a way that reinforces the themes Vegeta first brings up against Granolah during their fight.
That's awesome. It all happens so abruptly that it feels like the punchline to a joke. My reaction to seeing the spoilers was "That was all pointless wasn't it?" before laughing like a madman. I think, if the arc wasn't so drawn out that this would be more clear to readers.
Skar wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:47 am I saw a theory that Black Freeza could be a pun/reference to black ice. That would be interesting since you don't see black ice coming and no one expected Freeza to show up at the end.
:lol: I love that. Not only that, but it causes a lot of destruction just like Black Frieza.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 3744
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:17 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:43 am I don’t know how people aren’t reading Black Freeza as the tongue-in-cheek thematic closing to the arc it’s meant to be—while everyone was obsessing over, and cheating their way to, top slot, the one they were all after was just out there getting stronger through hard work, and shows up at the end to ruin their day.

Most of the arc takes itself quite seriously, but it’s a total comedy-of-errors ending, and as far as Black Freeza goes as a plot point, that’s its role. It’s a very Toriyama ending gag. It makes Granolah and the Heatas’ struggles “pointless,” but in a way that reinforces the themes Vegeta first brings up against Granolah during their fight.
Which brings my question. Do you have Black Freeza as the oracle fish's prophetic strongest? I do. Yet Whis seemingly contradicts this by stating maybe Freeza was the one the oracle fish was pointing too or perhaps another emerged as the strongest in the universe. I see this statement just repeating what Vegeta and Monaito said about the strongest only being temporary. The arc digging deeper into it's point of being strongest in the universe.

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:48 pm

Miracles wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 8:17 pm Which brings my question. Do you have Black Freeza as the oracle fish's prophetic strongest? I do. Yet Whis seemingly contradicts this by stating maybe Freeza was the one the oracle fish was pointing too or perhaps another emerged as the strongest in the universe. I see this statement just repeating what Vegeta and Monaito said about the strongest only being temporary. The arc digging deeper into it's point of being strongest in the universe.
Yeah, we’ll see if it gets touched upon again later, but I think it works fine as a “Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t” beat, which is the tone it’s delivered with.

User avatar
Goku9001
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 5:45 am

I really did love Frieza's long-awaited inclusion into all of this. It sort of does undermine the character arcs that both Goku and Vegeta had to go through to have a deeper understanding of their powers. But at the same time, it does highlight the ridiculousness of Granolah's and Gas' desire to be the strongest at the expense of their lifespan. Gas had to die to maintain his position as the strongest in the universe yet Frieza effortlessly sweeps it under the rug and makes Gas' entire conflict with Granolah and the Saiyans completely meaningless. Absolutely brilliant. I like how Toyotaro was self-aware of how ridiculous this whole thing really was.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:56 pm

I was under the impression that Goku's Susanoo was going to be explained in the last chapter(or how it was activated), or that an out of universe explanation was going to be given.

I assume by now nobody knows officially what it is?

It is supposed to be the scope of the silver UI form. Did I get at least that one right?

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:02 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:56 pm I was under the impression that Goku's Susanoo was going to be explained in the last chapter(or how it was activated), or that an out of universe explanation was going to be given.

I assume by now nobody knows officially what it is?

It is supposed to be the scope of the silver UI form. Did I get at least that one right?
Who knows. It's also possible to be one of the technniques created by the yardrats, the one where they become "fake" giants. But in Goku's case, his giant form can also be used in battle.

Post Reply