"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:54 am

mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:31 am I wonder if Granolah's remaining 3 year life span will somehow spill over into the upcoming movie seeing as though there's finally going to be a noticeable time-skip.
We haven't seen Broly or Freeza since the Broly movie, or Merus since Moro, so we probably won't see Granolah in the movie either, considering Toriyama started writing the new movie during DBSBroly days. Though they might do a cheap one and use a wish from either of the balls to fix Granolah.
I dont necessarily expect to see Granolah in the film but I think having 3 years left to live is such a specific number that there has to be more behind it besides it being a stipulation he has to live with because of the wish he made. Maybe the timeskip happens midway through this arc and once things finally wrap up that's when it'll lead into the movie.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:55 am

Pretty sure there's 3 years left between the end of Moro arc and the End of Z, so Granolah's wish undoubtedly has something to do with that. It's likely a plot device to bridge the end of the Granolah arc and the Goku vs. Uub tournament. And since Pan is already a young child in this movie (as opposed to a baby) it's safe to say this movie reaches the End of Z. When Pan is a young child and fights that fat dude at the tournament.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:00 am

For all the possibilities, the movie might take place just one year after Granolah saga, if they say Pan is three and is in her first year of kindergarten (assuming three years old is the first year in the kindergarten, as some sources say).

Which means the movie and that Granolah years might not have anything to do with one another. Also assuming if the movie will even acknowledge the manga, that is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:41 pm Re: Wish talk:

1. There's a reason Vegeta's intended wish back on Namek wasn't to become the universe's strongest, despite wanting to overthrow and eventually outmatch a tyrant that he knew was far beyond his scope.

2. There's a reason Goku was already extremely reluctant to do the God ritual, despite Shenron telling him it's totally temporary and obviously nowhere close to the same permanent cheat code that Granolah's wish is.
1. That's the previous Vegeta. The one who would never do a bingo dance to save himself, let alone others. The one who would never fight for anyone but himself. By the time of the Buu arc, he's willing to give up his life (vs Buu) to save his friends and family, and is willing to fuse with Goku and essentially erase himself to do the same.

2. The whole point of that growth was Goku being willing to do what's necessary for the greater good of those around him. He spoke to Beerus about hating that he had to do that, but it's something he had to do to not have the world go boom.

This is the problem. The characters are in a place now where everyone is more heroic than they previously were. When you introduce a hackneyed plot point like this, you need to do it more carefully than this.

Even ignoring Goku and Vegeta, there's absolutely no reason Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Bulma, Turtle, Puar the Cat, Oolong or whoever the fuck doesn't just make this wish whenever some new bad guy shows up and wants to end the world.

It's stupid. It's an idiot plot (as it currently exists).

As for how this could be implemented in-story:

A page or two back I showed a list of solutions that a user came up with. Those all work. Or just say "This is something only this particular dragon can do". Anything. It's either lazy, careless or just something that's meant to be revealed later (strange, then, that nobody is really asking about the consequences of this sudden power).

When Toriyama introduced Fusion, he explained why it had never been a thing before. When Cell was introduced, he explained how Gero got DNA from everyone. Etc. Yes, a lot of Toriyama's explanations and retcons are clunky, but he bothered to include them, and they only made the story better.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:47 pm

*sneeze*

I want to speculate a bit about Gas. I just re-read chapter 70, and I was wondering if there's any way that Gas could actually be a threat to Goku/Vegeta/Granolla. Something I imagined that I thought might be interesting: he was Freeza's training partner. I'm not sure that Heata would interact with Freeza in that way, but they have a business relationship, and the training would be mutually beneficial. If Freeza demanded it, they probably wouldn't refuse. It would provide more context to Freeza's four months of training, and while it would still be a stretch, it could conceivably raise Gas into (or near) the godly level of power.

I know that Tagoma is Freeza's training partner in the DBS anime, but he's clearly not in the film and manga.

Anyway, we know Elec has a plan for Gas. Maybe it'll involve Dragon Balls. We still don't know about Gas' bad memories from Cereal all those years ago, but I think there's a chance it'll be Bardock-related. I suspected that Bardock's Oozaru cameo in the beginning of the arc was just a nod to fans, but while Granolla couldn't recognize Goku as similar to Bardock, Gas actually might. The Heata spy devices seem to be transmitting audio, but not video, so Goku's appearance could still be a surprise to Gas.

On that note, if Granolla has memories of Bardock busting through the roof, how is he alive? Bardock has a soft-spot, so maybe he was spared. Maybe Monaito saved him somehow. Or maybe it relates to Oatmil...

Or maybe it'll never come up again.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:02 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:47 pm *sneeze*

I want to speculate a bit about Gas. I just re-read chapter 70, and I was wondering if there's any way that Gas could actually be a threat to Goku/Vegeta/Granolla. Something I imagined that I thought might be interesting: he was Freeza's training partner. I'm not sure that Heata would interact with Freeza in that way, but they have a business relationship, and the training would be mutually beneficial. If Freeza demanded it, they probably wouldn't refuse. It would provide more context to Freeza's four months of training, and while it would still be a stretch, it could conceivably raise Gas into (or near) the godly level of power.

Anyway, we know Elec has a plan for Gas. Maybe it'll involve Dragon Balls. We still don't know about Gas' bad memories from Cereal all those years ago, but I think there's a chance it'll be Bardock-related. I suspected that Bardock's Oozaru cameo in the beginning of the arc was just a nod to fans, but while Granolla couldn't recognize Goku as similar to Bardock, Gas actually might. The Heata spy devices seem to be transmitting audio, but not video, so Goku's appearance could still be a surprise to Gas.

I know that Tagoma is Freeza's training partner in the DBS anime, but he's clearly not in the film and manga.

On that note, if Granolla has memories of Bardock busting through the roof, how is he alive? Bardock has a soft-spot, so maybe he was spared. Maybe Monaito saved him somehow. Or maybe it relates to Oatmil...

Or maybe it'll never come up again.
Gas can be a threat for the reason Vegeta explained: strength isn't everything.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:10 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:02 pm Gas can be a threat for the reason Vegeta explained: strength isn't everything.
Elec is a threat without strength. Gas is a fighter, but even if he has very capable battle tactics, that probably couldn't bridge a huge gap in strength. Despite utilizing Migatte no Gokui, Goku still couldn't defeat Jiren. Also, while Granolla was sitting around waiting on intel, Vegeta was training his ass off, so his tactics made a difference. We're still not sure how much of a difference it'll make.

Gas can also become stronger than he was yesterday, but he's not training with gods. He doesn't have the godly tactics of Merus. I doubt Gas could pull Freeza's "prodigy who never trained" card, but he does seem to be a prodigy among Heata.

If Gas is somehow a battle genius that can pull things off like Merus, that would be a pleasant surprise.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:28 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:47 pm *sneeze*

I want to speculate a bit about Gas. I just re-read chapter 70, and I was wondering if there's any way that Gas could actually be a threat to Goku/Vegeta/Granolla. Something I imagined that I thought might be interesting: he was Freeza's training partner. I'm not sure that Heata would interact with Freeza in that way, but they have a business relationship, and the training would be mutually beneficial. If Freeza demanded it, they probably wouldn't refuse. It would provide more context to Freeza's four months of training, and while it would still be a stretch, it could conceivably raise Gas into (or near) the godly level of power.

I know that Tagoma is Freeza's training partner in the DBS anime, but he's clearly not in the film and manga.

Anyway, we know Elec has a plan for Gas. Maybe it'll involve Dragon Balls. We still don't know about Gas' bad memories from Cereal all those years ago, but I think there's a chance it'll be Bardock-related. I suspected that Bardock's Oozaru cameo in the beginning of the arc was just a nod to fans, but while Granolla couldn't recognize Goku as similar to Bardock, Gas actually might. The Heata spy devices seem to be transmitting audio, but not video, so Goku's appearance could still be a surprise to Gas.

On that note, if Granolla has memories of Bardock busting through the roof, how is he alive? Bardock has a soft-spot, so maybe he was spared. Maybe Monaito saved him somehow. Or maybe it relates to Oatmil...

Or maybe it'll never come up again.
I expect that since it's been hinted the wish is more than just a simple power boast(it apparently grants techniques, as it did for Granolah) in order for Gas not to be another boring Moro 3.0(Granolah was Moro 2.0). The wish needs to give the god techniques like it probably did for Granolah (Hakai is 99.8% confirmed, jury is still out for UI)

That AND Gas needs to have other insurances, because atleast with Granolah his fighting style was already a perfect counter for UI. Gas needs his own kind of techniques that counter the god techniques.

But unfortunately no matter how you slice it.

1. Either the wish is granted in the same way as Granolah

2. Gas has the potential but not the lifespan sacrifice to do what Granolah did, therefore not completing the wish.

3. Gas has the potential but not the lifeforce, but Elec realizes he can sacrifice other people(Oil and Macki) to power up Gas and the wish could be complete.
4. The wish cannot be granted in the same way, so The Heeters ask Toronbo to reverse Granolahs wish.

and probably the one that will happen:
5. The Heeters cannot make the wish but can use 73 to copy Granolahs power(or Goku/Vegeta) then use the wish to transfer it to themselves?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:57 pm

jd55513 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:28 pm 5. The Heeters cannot make the wish but can use 73 to copy Granolahs power(or Goku/Vegeta) then use the wish to transfer it to themselves?
Considering they do have 7-3 in their custody... Yeah, that's a very real possibility.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:07 pm

I think the key is on the second wish.
I don't see how 7-3 or the Heaters could manage to grab Granola's neck, but maybe Toronbo will help them out like he did with Granola, you know? introducing the almighty "however" and accomodate the wish on their favour.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:10 pm

Remember that Elec had Maki and Oil ask Zuno 10 Questions. We never found out what all the questions were. So perhaps it has something to do with that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:19 pm

Thani wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:57 pm
jd55513 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:28 pm 5. The Heeters cannot make the wish but can use 73 to copy Granolahs power(or Goku/Vegeta) then use the wish to transfer it to themselves?
Considering they do have 7-3 in their custody... Yeah, that's a very real possibility.
It's difficult to say how 73 will be used this arc. Many people think his purpose was to survive Moro and serve as just information for the Heeters to learn about DBS and Zuno. However he started out as just a dying head, and now is a Head/Torso and still healing.....
It's pretty evident his copy abilities will be used and he may be a key player, unless Frieza shows up.


The question is....is 73 on the current Heeter ship headed to planet Cereal, or is 73 still as their base?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 pm

TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm That's the previous Vegeta.
I actually totally disagree.

That's current Vegeta. That's the Vegeta who spent the better part of a whole chapter explaining why Granolah's wish is anathema to everything he stands for -- be it that wish's complete disregard for the experience of battle for the sake of a cheap shortcut, its literal subtraction from said experience, its shortsightedness and potential ineffectiveness, and so on. It takes everything Vegeta likes about fighting and being the best there is as a result, his main aspiration, and throws it all into the dirt for a long time if not for good.

Fusing? Sacrificing his existence? That's nothing compared to a lifetime of misery had Vegeta made such a wish.

There's an important distinction to be made here. The compromises made by Goku and Vegeta as characters have always been contingent on things they were willing to put aside for the time being, or at least nothing that would sacrifice their aspirations if permanent. Granolah's wish is permanent. Granolah's wish will affect them until they die. Granolah's wish represents the antithesis of their core motivations.

I don't buy for a second that *any* major character thus far would have been willing to make that exact same wish with the exact same drawbacks attached, including villains... hell, especially villains. Zamasu comes the closest, but just tell him he has a few years left to live and watch him duck out instantly.
TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm Even ignoring Goku and Vegeta, there's absolutely no reason Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Bulma, Turtle, Puar the Cat, Oolong or whoever the fuck doesn't just make this wish whenever some new bad guy shows up and wants to end the world.
I'd ignore Goku and Vegeta from the get-go for obvious reasons, but even if we apply your argument to the Earthlings - which makes enough sense, theoretically - there's no guarantee they could do it. We've known the dragons to operate differently since the original manga, and Toronbo is likely no exception. None of those characters have the means to collect the Super Dragon Balls either.

But since you seem to acknowledge that explanation here:
TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm Or just say "This is something only this particular dragon can do".
I'm not sure what else to say. I'd concur with you that I'd rather have a line like that than not, but again, I think it's something that would seem apparent enough if you've been following the series. No two sets of rules and mechanics between any two sets of Dragon Balls have ever been the same, so why jump to that conclusion now?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:17 pm

Image

Goku Black on the spineart and that mysterious yellow bar is still there! I thought characters are in order of appearance so Goku Black should've been before the ToP characters. Next character should be Moro unless Toyotaro wants to include Freeza first.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:31 am

TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm Even ignoring Goku and Vegeta, there's absolutely no reason Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Bulma, Turtle, Puar the Cat, Oolong or whoever the fuck doesn't just make this wish whenever some new bad guy shows up and wants to end the world.
Tenshinhan could make the same wish and probably only come out the other end strong enough to fight the androids when they first showed up. Maybe that’s too harsh, but Granolah’s 150 years of lifespan are certainly highlighted as a factor.

And Vegeta is currently demonstrating the folly of such a wish; you’re barely stronger for a bit, and then anyone with more focus can easily get the upper hand again.

Also if Goku had made such a wish at any point prior in DB or DBS, everyone would be dead, as he would have used his remaining lifespan to be marginally stronger than whoever the current antagonist was at one specific point.

This is such a non-issue in terms of accepting the current story.

Re: Spine art: Interesting getting Black next! It is out of order, chronologically, but I doubt they had the length of the series predicted at any point earlier on, and it’s not like the original series’ spine art always places characters in the most sensible order either. I wonder if he’ll be trailed by Zamasu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:11 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:31 am I wonder if he’ll be trailed by Zamasu.
If you look closely, you see that Black is smiling at someone, so it feels that he will appear indeed!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:03 am

The wild Goku Black appearing out of nowhere is appreciated.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:43 am

What do you guys think will happen after this arc? If I ends the same month Super Hero is released then there should 3-4 volumes until then (depending when it comes out next year). I recall Toyotaro saying the manga will lead into EoZ and makes sense the yellow bar in the spineart could end with Uub riding on the Nimbus cloud. It could be like Broly and manga summarizes the movie in a page before moving to the next arc.

I was wondering based on the spineart since he's showing Goku Black. If the manga was ending after Granolah, he probably would've shown Moro then Granolah or the Heetas. It's probably not planned in great detail but if he's assuming to continue after Granolah then enough time to cover previous characters before moving on to those who appeared after the ToP.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:55 am

Skar wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:43 am I was wondering based on the spineart since he's showing Goku Black. If the manga was ending after Granolah, he probably would've shown Moro then Granolah or the Heetas. It's probably not planned in great detail but if he's assuming to continue after Granolah then enough time to cover previous characters before moving on to those who appeared after the ToP.
I’m not tempted to read too far into the spine art as far as making any series length predictions. I think it’s likely there’ll be at least one more arc after Granolah, but I dare not guess as to what hints the spine art may provide; even in the original DB, no one from the Boo arc wound up making it onto the spine art, so I wouldn’t consider it a guarantee that Moro and Granolah (or characters from their arcs) need to show up before the end.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:45 am

Mr Baggins wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 pm
I actually totally disagree.
There is functionally no difference between deciding to become Vegito or Gogeta in order to beat someone far above them. Both take the fight out of his hands.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 pmWe've known the dragons to operate differently since the original manga, and Toronbo is likely no exception.
Sure would be nice if the story just said so.
Mr Baggins wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:06 pmBut since you seem to acknowledge that explanation here:
TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm Or just say "This is something only this particular dragon can do".
I'm not sure what else to say. I'd concur with you that I'd rather have a line like that than not, but again, I think it's something that would seem apparent enough if you've been following the series. No two sets of rules and mechanics between any two sets of Dragon Balls have ever been the same, so why jump to that conclusion now?
This just isn't good storytelling. We have to assume the new dragonballs introduced work the same as the dragonballs we know as the baseline, and then you tell us what makes them different. If we start at the assumption that they're different, then what rules even apply to them? What even are they? What's that dragon thing supposed to be? Etc. Etc.

One of the coolest bits of the Goku vs Frieza fight was when the background characters went full ruleshark on the dragons to figure out how to get what they want. You don't get that moment if Toriyama had not clearly explained how both sets of dragonballs worked and what rules they were governed by. Setting rules for your story does not "bog it down"; rather, it allows for more thoughtful writing and greater audience investment.

This stupid plot point takes more away from the series than it adds to it and cheapens every single moment in the franchise. The knowledge that at any point, the characters could've just wished to become stronger is just fucking lame. Which, again, is why I am desperately hoping there's more to it than what's been presented thus far, because what's been presented thus far is fucking lame.
Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:31 am And Vegeta is currently demonstrating the folly of such a wish; you’re barely stronger for a bit, and then anyone with more focus can easily get the upper hand again.

Also if Goku had made such a wish at any point prior in DB or DBS, everyone would be dead, as he would have used his remaining lifespan to be marginally stronger than whoever the current antagonist was at one specific point.

This is such a non-issue in terms of accepting the current story.
Look, you can disagree with me, or whatever, and more power to you if you do. But the things I chose to leave in the quote aren't good arguments against what I'm saying. By any stretch of the imagination.

1. Folly? Vegeta trained his ass off for years since super started to get to this level. Granolah hit him once in the gut and he's doubled over in pain, bleeding from the mouth. He has to bust out a new transformation to be on (presumably) on par with him. What did Granolah do for this? He made 1 wish. 1 wish. It took him all of 5 minutes to get to this point. That's not folly. Especially if you just wanna kill 1 or 2 dudes.

2. If Goku had made such a wish at any point prior in DB or DBS, everyone would still be around because any number of them could make that same wish when fighting a new bad guy.

3. It's a non-issue for you. That's fine. It's not a non-issue for me.

4. That trading lifespan nonsense is goddamn stupid as presented. How many units of power does 1 year of life get you? How do we know that giving up 10 years of your life doesn't automatically make you stronger than at least Majin Buu? Could you wish for immortality and then trade that in for infinite power? Stories need rules. As a designer I greatly respect often says "Restrictions breed creativity". When rules are clearly established, you have to be more creative to work within those rules and present something interesting. Toyotaro basically broke the entire structure of the story to introduce this, and it shits on a lot of stuff from before.
Last edited by TKA on Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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