"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:49 am

Skar wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:43 am What do you guys think will happen after this arc? If I ends the same month Super Hero is released then there should 3-4 volumes until then (depending when it comes out next year). I recall Toyotaro saying the manga will lead into EoZ and makes sense the yellow bar in the spineart could end with Uub riding on the Nimbus cloud. It could be like Broly and manga summarizes the movie in a page before moving to the next arc.

I was wondering based on the spineart since he's showing Goku Black. If the manga was ending after Granolah, he probably would've shown Moro then Granolah or the Heetas. It's probably not planned in great detail but if he's assuming to continue after Granolah then enough time to cover previous characters before moving on to those who appeared after the ToP.
At this point I genuinely believe they will go after the end of Z. Uub was hyped up in Moro, and now the movie is very close to it, and it’s seemingly a very light-hearted movie which doesn’t sound like it could be the conclusion of modern DB.

Super has still so many stories that have been set up and still not concluded that it would honestly surprise me a lot if the movie were the last modern Dragon Ball story.
That is unless Granolah arc ends up being super long, featuring the end of Freeza’s story, Broly, Sadala, Jiren and the demon who killed his master mentioned at the ToP, Zalama, the resolution of Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry with Beerus, and other open plot points I might have forgotten.

That sounds too much for a single arc, so I am confident that either they cram this stuff right after the movie, in the movie or in the current arc, or they will actually keep on writing many new stories for many years to come and therefore will actually go past EoZ.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:02 am

Skar wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:43 am What do you guys think will happen after this arc? If It ends the same month Super Hero is released
I'm willing to bet it won't. This arc has been set up as long, with lots of twists to look forward to. We're barely scratching the beginning.
emperior wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:49 am That is unless Granolah arc ends up being super long, featuring the end of Freeza’s story, Broly, Sadala, Jiren and the demon who killed his master mentioned at the ToP, Zalama, the resolution of Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry with Beerus, and other open plot points I might have forgotten.
Not all of these plot points have to be resolved. Jiren's villain was just a part of his backstory, we don't know whether he is still alive and if they ever plan to do anything with him. Freeza can remain alive post EoZ, it's not like we knew his status then anyway (and Toriyama gave him a son)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:54 pm

emperior wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:49 amSuper has still so many stories that have been set up and still not concluded that it would honestly surprise me a lot if the movie were the last modern Dragon Ball story.
That is unless Granolah arc ends up being super long, featuring the end of Freeza’s story, Broly, Sadala, Jiren and the demon who killed his master mentioned at the ToP, Zalama, the resolution of Goku and Vegeta’s rivalry with Beerus, and other open plot points I might have forgotten.
Some of these might've already been resolved or not intended to be explored later. Vegeta saying he'd like to go to Sadala might've been just a nice thing to say at the time since I forgot if it was brought up again in the ToP. Jiren's demon was probably only part of his backstory to explain why he's that way. Jiren might've already killed that demon or it died already but Jiren's arc is likely over after learning the importance of teamwork and whatnot. Broly wasn't brought up in the Moro and Moro's gang happened not to run into him so maybe his arc ended when he was freed from Paragus and allowed to live in peace.

That leaves Freeza and Goku and Vegeta's rivalry with Beerus. This arc has someone going after him so maybe Freeza's story ends here. He might get killed again, help out against a common threat, or kinda just move on from his revenge and keep to himself. Goku is working towards perfecting UI while Vegeta achieved some new destruction form so that could be the end of the line for them and finally rivaling Beerus once these are mastered.

What do you think would happen after EoZ if these are resolved before? Most ideas for continue after EoZ I've heard require Toriyama to change his mind about the cast being too old then deciding to focus on the next generation which I think both became more unlikely the longer we stayed in this timeskip.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:55 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:45 am There is functionally no difference between deciding to become Vegito or Gogeta in order to beat someone far above them. Both take the fight out of his hands.
Either fusion fully preserves the trait I've kept bringing up and Goku/Vegeta's consciousness/experience. As far as my point goes, that's a pretty substantial difference from the kind of ongoing psychological crisis Granolah's wish would induce.

But since that's not even the main crux of our disagreement at this point, I'm willing to drop the characterization talk here.
TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm If we start at the assumption that they're different, then what rules even apply to them? What even are they? What's that dragon thing supposed to be?  Etc. Etc.
Ask yourself, though: is this really some blind assumption? After three different sets of wish orbs with their own rules, mechanics, and properties, it should be a given that the ones on Cereal are different. Toronbo isn't Shenron or Porunga, and it's a much bigger leap to assume they operate by the same capabilities if we adhere to what the series has presented so far.

Spilling out a bunch of overly detailed exposition the moment they're introduced is clunky storytelling and adds nothing to the plot. It worked for Namek because the whole structure of that story was a race to collect them all; here it'd only bog everything down. There's a difference between establishing your rules organically and being a glorified guidebook. Toriyama is great at the former, Toyotaro not so much.
TKA wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:47 pm Which, again, is why I am desperately hoping there's more to it than what's been presented thus far
I'd like the wish to have a deeper thematic element than what's been presented thus far, for sure. I have zero major issues with this outside of it just being a little generic and contrived, though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:53 pm

Already being a two-orb set implies its dragon might work differently.

Also, nice to have the undying Mr. Marlowe Baggins back!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:13 pm

I get that the dragon granola wished to was different from the other two Shenlongs, but I hope to high heaven Toyotarou provides more exposition for it. Crucial bits of information like this shouldn’t only be inferred by the readers.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:39 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:13 pm I get that the dragon granola wished to was different from the other two Shenlongs, but I hope to high heaven Toyotarou provides more exposition for it. Crucial bits of information like this shouldn’t only be inferred by the readers.
I wouldn't expect them to go into more detail within the manga or anime. The story is meant for children and isn't really meant to be analyzed or questioned like this, the only time we get detailed answers to lore questions is in guide books where Toriyama makes stuff up just for the guide book.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 pm

To be fair to TKA, upon reflection, I can see taking issue with it in the sense that ... had Tenshinhan wished to be stronger than the Saiyans back in the Saiyan arc, considering he was only a year or so later, would the dragon have been able to do that in exchange for just a year or so of his life? Because then that’s practically nothing.

It might be revealed as a unique property of the Ceralian dragon. If it’s not, it’s still only about as glaring an issue to me as the revelation of the Room of Spirit and Time, but I can see taking some issue with the questions it raises about previous storylines.

For what it’s worth, the last issue of V-Jump has a back-up feature which lightly implies it might be a feature specific to Toronbo. Will try to post a full translation of the (absolutely not-a-smoking-gun) blurb when I’m back later.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Skar » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:07 pm

A lot of good points raised in this discussion about Granolah's wish. I still like to give the benefit of the doubt since the arc is still ongoing and hope more is revealed later. I remember when Meerus got the jump on Vegeta and I thought it was stupid how a young unknown Patrolmen was apparently able to train enough on his own to surprise Goku and Vegeta after all the training they've done. The Galactic Patrol feared Freeza's army and since this new guy didn't deal with them then that means he joined after. Then it was revealed he was an Angel in training which made more sense than a member of an alien race that no one else in the universe knew about.

This arc might be a little different since it seems Toriyama is involved so hopefully the implications were taken into consideration and explained why it wasn't used before. My own theory is that it just happened to be used by a character who had the potential to make the wish worthwhile kinda how only the Saiyans and Piccolo used the RoSaT or only Goku and Vegeta were trained by Whis. It was stated the half-Saiyans have huge potential so we know they would have similar gains to the full-blooded Saiyans if they decided to train with Whis but everyone else probably just doesn't have the potential. If Krillin and Tien wished to be the strongest in the universe, the Dragon might say it isn't possible no matter how much he condensed their lifespan. If Gas is going to make a similar wish, we might find out more of the conditions like having a shorter lifespan or less potential requires a bigger sacrifice.

I could be wrong and nothing else is revealed but I'm willing to wait and see since it's been a good arc so far in my opinion!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:35 pm

I can count a lot of the times in just the past arc where people thought something was stupid when it was introduced only to have it explained later and then its never acknowledged again.

When Merus got the jump on Goku and Vegeta people said that its insane for a Galactic Patrolman to do that and saying "Why hasn't he captured Frieza?" and stuff, only for it to be revealed that he was actually an Angel.

It was also mentioned that when Cranberry killed Moori that the dragon should have disapeared and that Toyotaro was stupid for making such a big plot hole, only for it to be explained next chapter that Moori made Esca his Successor before disaster struck.

Its pretty consistent for Dragon Ball Fans, Especially on here and on Twitter, to Jump to conclusions before giving the story the oprotunity to explain it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:01 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 pm It might be revealed as a unique property of the Ceralian dragon. If it’s not, it’s still only about as glaring an issue to me as the revelation of the Room of Spirit and Time, but I can see taking some issue with the questions it raises about previous storylines.
Room of Spirit and Time's situation is much worse imo.

It effectively made several characters look dumb and incompetent (Goku, Kami, Popo and post fusion Piccolo). And it makes you wonder how the hell Krillin, Yamcha and Tien trained for 1 year at God's Palace in the midst of an end-of-the-world crisis and no one ever suggested that they use that room (with Popo and Kami right in front of them). And the same for the 3 years that preceded the arrival of the Androids.

At least in the Granola situation you can assume that no other character had the combination of potential + big lifespan + willingness to throw his whole life away for revenge and power all at the same time while using the Dragon Balls.

At worst you can just assume that Toronbo, like all other dragons, has its own quirks when it comes to wish-fulfillment capabilities (since he was the only one who proved able to allow the user to bargain something to get the wish fulfilled, as long as it's within his power)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:27 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 pm To be fair to TKA, upon reflection, I can see taking issue with it in the sense that ... had Tenshinhan wished to be stronger than the Saiyans back in the Saiyan arc, considering he was only a year or so later, would the dragon have been able to do that in exchange for just a year or so of his life? Because then that’s practically nothing.
But we know for sure that nobody among the cast would have ever wished for such a thing, or else they would have stopped the androids as soon as they were informed about them by Trunks, like Bulma suggested.

Also in the Saiyan arc they had to revive Goku with the Dragon Balls.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 am

To nip this whole Merus thing in the bud—it's not comparable. Anyone complaining about Merus is the same type of dumdum that would complain about Roshi dodging Jiren.

Merus' strength was presented as a mystery in the story. It was a legitimate plot point that he was mysteriously strong, and the characters bothered to question it. Roshi dodging Jiren, likewise, was a plot point and something the story bothered to question.

This isn't being questioned in story. He's strong because he made the wish. That's the end of it. Nobody questions the true consequences of that. Granolah isn't alluding to giving up more for it.
emperior wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:27 am But we know for sure that nobody among the cast would have ever wished for such a thing, or else they would have stopped the androids
Vegeta literally threatened to kill anyone who tried to kill Gero before he finished the Androids. And this was back at the time that he would actually do that.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 am

TKA wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 am To nip this whole Merus thing in the bud—it's not comparable. Anyone complaining about Merus is the same type of dumdum that would complain about Roshi dodging Jiren.

Merus' strength was presented as a mystery in the story. It was a legitimate plot point that he was mysteriously strong, and the characters bothered to question it. Roshi dodging Jiren, likewise, was a plot point and something the story bothered to question.

This isn't being questioned in story. He's strong because he made the wish. That's the end of it. Nobody questions the true consequences of that. Granolah isn't alluding to giving up more for it.
Its not that the situations were comparable, its that the reaction was. At the drop of chapter 42 people were upset that Merus could take out Goku and Vegeta in base and were saying it was shitty writing from Toyotaro. It wasn't until chapter 43 when Vegeta called it into question and it became a mystery, and there was backlash from before that.

And even still my prior point about Moori and Esca is still Valid:
It was also mentioned that when Cranberry killed Moori that the dragon should have disapeared and that Toyotaro was stupid for making such a big plot hole, only for it to be explained next chapter that Moori made Esca his Successor before disaster struck.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:52 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 pm It might be revealed as a unique property of the Ceralian dragon. If it’s not, it’s still only about as glaring an issue to me as the revelation of the Room of Spirit and Time, but I can see taking some issue with the questions it raises about previous storylines.
Well, as mentioned, I guess I'd rather have a quick line acknowledging it in the chapter than not -- if only to ensure there's not so much back-and-forthing over it in fan communities.

My initial reaction to Toronbo's ability to grant that wish literally was "Wow, so Toronbo has the ability to grant that wish (albeit with a condition attached)". I never even considered Shenron or Porunga in retrospect because the various dragons having different wish capabilities was already firmly established in Dragon Ball. Hell, I can't even recall the other dragons making barters; I just immediately concluded it was some new thing unique to the Cerealean dragon, particularly given how open and shut the others were about denying wishes beyond their power.

So clearly, it all depends on whether we think this specific information is intended to be a natural conclusion the reader comes to on their own or something directly reaffirmed in-plot. I can't really answer that question in a way that would divorce it from my own reading experience, but yeah, the former has been my understanding the whole time.

Also, dare I say it? This reads like a Toriyama plot point to me. We know he's rather involved in this arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:33 am

I vaguely remember Goku appeasing Vegeta in the Broly movie by saying Shenron couldn't make Freeza the strongest since it was "beyond his power".
This beyond his power line was introduced way sooner(Piccolo Daimão arc I believe), to justify why don't we just wish the villains away.

In-universe the characters have a very good justification for never wishing for power. That said, Guru showed an ability to enhance power of others to at the time outrageous amounts with Kuririn and Gohan.
Fair to assume Porunga always had this ability due to his creator and the characters simply never thought of it.

To me characters simply never tried the wish and even so it was only possible with: the trade off, Granolah's apparent above average potential and long lifespan.

Had Yamcha, for example, asked the same and I assume it would be impossible for him. Specially since Dragon Ball has been consistent in giving limits to many characters. The humans never going beyond a Super Saiyan and Freeza being a huge threat years after being introduced.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:21 am

DiscountDabi wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:14 am
TKA wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 am To nip this whole Merus thing in the bud—it's not comparable. Anyone complaining about Merus is the same type of dumdum that would complain about Roshi dodging Jiren.

Merus' strength was presented as a mystery in the story. It was a legitimate plot point that he was mysteriously strong, and the characters bothered to question it. Roshi dodging Jiren, likewise, was a plot point and something the story bothered to question.

This isn't being questioned in story. He's strong because he made the wish. That's the end of it. Nobody questions the true consequences of that. Granolah isn't alluding to giving up more for it.
Its not that the situations were comparable, its that the reaction was. At the drop of chapter 42 people were upset that Merus could take out Goku and Vegeta in base and were saying it was shitty writing from Toyotaro. It wasn't until chapter 43 when Vegeta called it into question and it became a mystery, and there was backlash from before that.
100% I was one of those people and by the end, I had to eat crow, because I really enjoyed Merus' involvement in the story and Toyotaro used him and his mysterious power really well.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sun Aug 01, 2021 12:41 pm

TKA wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:44 am This isn't being questioned in story. He's strong because he made the wish. That's the end of it. Nobody questions the true consequences of that. Granolah isn't alluding to giving up more for it.
If nobody ever questions it, you have a point. It still doesn't bother me much since Granolla's especially long lifespan is part of the equation. The only other character that could conceivably benefit to such a ridiculous extent is Piccolo, and since he was God/spends a lot of time with God, he would probably know if such a wish were possible.

On the other hand, there's nobody involved that should be questioning it at this point. Granolla's experience is straightforward. Monaito created the dragon and understood the condition immediately. Elec just learned about Dragon Balls, and the extent of his knowledge/plan is an ongoing mystery. Vegeta figured out that Granolla gained his powers recently, but that's still a mystery (to him), too.

Now, would either Vegeta or Goku question the technical matter of the wish based on their experience or personalities? Sure, they might be inclined to use such a condition in the right situation, but they would be disgusted at the thought of it. Detesting Granolla for making such a pathetic wish might be more at the front of Vegeta's mind over "we could've done this the whole time??" Kuririn might be inclined to ask such a question.

If Monaito stumbles upon the injured Goku in the following chapter, that might be a good time for some exposition.
Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:15 pm For what it’s worth, the last issue of V-Jump has a back-up feature which lightly implies it might be a feature specific to Toronbo. Will try to post a full translation of the (absolutely not-a-smoking-gun) blurb when I’m back later.
I think the story implies it, too. When Granolla makes his wish, fans of the series are expecting a flat "no" from the dragon. We hold the expectation that Shenlong would not be able to grant that wish. The fact that Toronbo can grant it - with a condition - is played as a twist. The wish is left as a cliff-hanger in ch.69, and Toronbo hits us with the "However..." in ch.70. That aside, there are several things about Toronbo that show he's not like the dragons we know. There are only two balls. They're much smaller than the ones we've seen. The balls don't turn to stone after you make a wish. At this time, the trade-off aspect plays as another difference on the list.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm

The main gripe with Granolah and the Toronbo dragon isnt really the condition because it's obvious plot contrived exposition (Cerealieans having long lifespan) it's the fact that Granolah obtained techniques from the wish, up to, and including the god techniques (atleast one of them currently)

Most people originally understood the wish as taking Granolah latent potential adding up all the power he would have had at the end of his remaining 147 years of his life and then using that as a multiplier to then make him the strongest/greatest warrior in the universe. No problem with that.

However he got more than just power, he got techniques from the wish, which wansnt exactly clear from the in text bubbles from 70.

So if it's revealed Granolah also has Ultra Instinct and god knows what else. People will be roughly upset because the initial dialogue from 70 didn't lead people to think this. Unless it's a foreshadowing/twist similar to the Moro/Merus hand thing.


All in all, Toriyama and Toyatoro better reveal this, especially if Granolah counters Vegetas new power lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:06 pm

In the Broly movie; Didn't Freeza already give his reasons why wishing for such things as immortality [Subject to dire circumstances out of one's control forever; like when he was in Hell] and invulnerability ["That would make the game no fun"] as no go's? So it would seem a lot depends on the characters personality/desire.

Besides, why should every character from here on out wish to be stronger, when the story already said even such a wish is no guarantee it would last? Since the universe will always bring someone better. We just had Vegeta tell us that very thing this chapter.

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