"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Amir]

I hate the fact that a life energy from a planet used as offensive attacks could harm SSJ God Vegeta. He should have easily beaten that in base form. A planet energy is not anywhere near as powerful as Vegeta's base form.

Moro's magic is disappointing so far.. All he does is mild telekinesis (Frieza did it better) and absorption. The absorption itself is unique but it's still only a method to weaken your opponent so Moro can use regular melee attacks to win.

Yes planet energy may be weak , but that energy and lava manipulated by beings stronger than SSG is in finitely faster and precise. Consider it like Ssj future Trunks using sword against frieza, a sword is nothing but the stronger and trained wielder makes the combination stronger.

But the entire point was that Moro was physically weaker than SSJ God Vegeta and started to get the upper hand by using his magical abilities.

[TKA]

This isn't correct. Ki is the combination of Genki, shouki, and yuuki. So Genki can not surpass Ki.
Toriyama actually stated such in the SEG.

I've seen that interview.

That's not what's reflected in the series.

The Spirit bomb uses genki and has been used to defeat enemies far stronger than the individuals who give genki to it.

Spoiler:

In addition to this fact, everyone contributes the same amount of Genki. The Spirit Bomb used to kill Pure Buu grew a negligible amount when Gohan gave his power to it. If it was accepting ki, then Gohan's alone should've been enough to annihilate Pure Buu.

[Hellspawn28]

I dig the new arc so far. Moro is a cool original villain with a cool backstory and is not super buff up character like Jiren or Broli. For once, it is cool to have someone who can be powerful without some type of muscular design or transformations. We also haven't had a battle on Planet Namek since DBZ Movie 6, so that is nice for once.

[Rakurai]

He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.

That pretty accurately summarizes my problem with Moro. He's such a "then what" villain.

Sucking the life out of planets and throwing meteors around was a good way of introducing him to the plot, I think, but he hasn't amounted to anything more than that and it's seriously offputting. I would've wanted more interesting magic not just because it's "cool" or "unique" or whatever, but because of the dilemmas it could have wrought for our protagonists, forcing them to think outside of the box and helping them grow as characters. We're still not getting a hint of that after, what, 60 pages of fighting? They're embroiled in a pointless conflict that isn't doing anything for them.

As others have said, there's no thesis here. No core message. No story themes to tie anything together. This isn't better than the average Z movie so far.

More so to the fact that Moro was literally just using plain ol' telekinesis. I think the story itself may develop later on with interesting involvements from Merus, the Frieza soldier, and the Great Kaioshin so I'm holding out on that right now, right now I'm just disappointed with Moro's gig and repertoire.

This may be more relevant to the strength thread, but I just want to point out that SSG Vegeta was hurt with life energy of the planet. Y'know, the transformation that caused universe quakes and all that jazz. Hurt by the energy of a single planet. This makes all those powerscaling debates and tiers even more dumb and inconclusive.

[TobyS]

He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.

That pretty accurately summarizes my problem with Moro. He's such a "then what" villain.

Sucking the life out of planets and throwing meteors around was a good way of introducing him to the plot, I think, but he hasn't amounted to anything more than that and it's seriously offputting. I would've wanted more interesting magic not just because it's "cool" or "unique" or whatever, but because of the dilemmas it could have wrought for our protagonists, forcing them to think outside of the box and helping them grow as characters. We're still not getting a hint of that after, what, 60 pages of fighting? They're embroiled in a pointless conflict that isn't doing anything for them.

As others have said, there's no thesis here. No core message. No story themes to tie anything together. This isn't better than the average Z movie so far.

More so to the fact that Moro was literally just using plain ol' telekinesis. I think the story itself may develop later on with interesting involvements from Merus, the Frieza soldier, and the Great Kaioshin so I'm holding out on that right now, right now I'm just disappointed with Moro's gig and repertoire.

This may be more relevant to the strength thread, but I just want to point out that SSG Vegeta was hurt with life energy of the planet. Y'know, the transformation that caused universe quakes and all that jazz. Hurt by the energy of a single planet. This makes all those powerscaling debates and tiers even more dumb and inconclusive.

In addition to Moro's own inherent power though. Whether it's a 50 50 split or 99-1 we don't know.

[Rakurai]

In addition to Moro's own inherent power though. Whether it's a 50 50 split or 99-1 we don't know.

Meros: "The existing records indicate that he can wield massive energy from the planets for direct attacks."

Moro: "With this move, I attack with the energy of the planet we stand on. The magnitude comes not from my own power, but from the planet itself."

Which would imply that the planet's life force shaped into direct attacks can harm SSG Vegeta.

This isn't like F. Trunks' sword being able to cut Frieza, where we can speculate he reinforced it with his own ki. It's more like 16's cannons being able to harm Imperfect Cell, where the cannons are just that strong.

The planet is strong enough to harm a SSG-level opponent. It doesn't take a galaxy or universe-level punch to do the same like many powerscalists tend to claim.

[TobyS]

In addition to Moro's own inherent power though. Whether it's a 50 50 split or 99-1 we don't know.

Meros: "The existing records indicate that he can wield massive energy from the planets for direct attacks."

Moro: "With this move, I attack with the energy of the planet we stand on. The magnitude comes not from my own power, but from the planet itself."

Which would imply that the planet's life force shaped into direct attacks can harm SSG Vegeta.

This isn't like F. Trunks' sword being able to cut Frieza, where we can speculate he reinforced it with his own ki. It's more like 16's cannons being able to harm Imperfect Cell, where the cannons are just that strong.

The planet is strong enough to harm a SSG-level opponent. It doesn't take a galaxy or universe-level punch to do the same like many powerscalists tend to claim.[/quote
I stand corrected.

I guess planets and universes are just glass canons , they can crack easy but do have a lot of energy if you can wield it.

Side note was the universe breaking in the bog arc of the manga or was that toei wank?

[ShaggyBlanco]

Side note was the universe breaking in the bog arc of the manga or was that toei wank?

Spoiler:

There was this

[Rakurai]

I stand corrected.

I guess planets and universes are just glass canons , they can crack easy but do have a lot of energy if you can wield it.

Side note was the universe breaking in the bog arc of the manga or was that toei wank?

The universe breaking stuff was BoG exclusive. Since then nothing of the same sort of magnitude has occurred between two non-GoD fighters. Golden Frieza vs SSB Goku, Black vs others, Vegetto vs Zamasu, Broly vs others, etc.

That indeed seems to be the case, the energy of a planet is sufficient to harm SSG Goku/Vegeta if wielded properly. I'm actually fine with this, as it debunks powerscaling based on destructive capacity and physical size.

On another note, I wonder what Moro's deeper connection with the Galactic Patrol is since he wields a belt that has their language on it. Maybe the Galactic Patrol itself has some dark origins starting out as an evil organization or something.

[ankokudaishogun]

This isn't like F. Trunks' sword being able to cut Frieza.

Exactly. This is like F. Trunks's Genkidama Sword being able to defeat Fused Zamasu.

Like, literally.

[ruler9871]

I stand corrected.

I guess planets and universes are just glass canons , they can crack easy but do have a lot of energy if you can wield it.

Side note was the universe breaking in the bog arc of the manga or was that toei wank?

The universe breaking stuff was BoG exclusive. Since then nothing of the same sort of magnitude has occurred between two non-GoD fighters. Golden Frieza vs SSB Goku, Black vs others, Vegetto vs Zamasu, Broly vs others, etc.

That indeed seems to be the case, the energy of a planet is sufficient to harm SSG Goku/Vegeta if wielded properly. I'm actually fine with this, as it debunks powerscaling based on destructive capacity and physical size.

On another note, I wonder what Moro's deeper connection with the Galactic Patrol is since he wields a belt that has their language on it. Maybe the Galactic Patrol itself has some dark origins starting out as an evil organization or something.

Powerscaling based on destructive capacity is the main and most direct form of powerscaling there is. Rejecting it would be nonsensical.

Also, there have been numerous universal/above-4th dimensional feats and statements after BoG (like Black cutting the space-time fabric with his scythe, Kefla claiming she could one-shot a universe, Jiren transcending time just by powering up, Omen Goku shaking Infinity, etc) so it is hardly an outlier.

"The universe breaking stuff was BoG exclusive. Since then nothing of the same sort of magnitude has occurred between two non-GoD fighters."

The argument you are making is the same fallacy that many downplayers use to deny that anyone in Z could blow up planets at all. The "why don't they blow up Earth everytime they fight if they're planet busters" argument has been debunked and explained away numerous times already.

[ruler9871]

He absorbs the life energy of planets and living beings, then what? Gets stronger and throws meteors? Is that all there is to his magic? Piccolo has more interesting magic than that, jeez.

This may be more relevant to the strength thread, but I just want to point out that SSG Vegeta was hurt with life energy of the planet. Y'know, the transformation that caused universe quakes and all that jazz. Hurt by the energy of a single planet. This makes all those powerscaling debates and tiers even more dumb and inconclusive.

No, that's just another example of an inconsistency from Toyotaro, like SSJ1 Cauifla in the manga being only a little strong than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku, yet being able to hurt Golden Freeza (who should be able to one-shot her in just his 1st form by now).

It only shows that Toyotaro is a bad powerscaler, not that powerscaling the series is dumb.

[Rakurai]

Powerscaling based on destructive capacity is the main and most direct form of powerscaling there is. Rejecting it would be nonsensical.

Also, there have been numerous universal/above-4th dimensional feats and statements after BoG (like Black cutting the space-time fabric with his scythe, Kefla claiming she could one-shot a universe, Jiren transcending time just by powering up, Omen Goku shaking Infinity, etc) so it is hardly an outlier.

No it is not. Comparing character feats relative to each other is the most direct form of powerscaling. Goku > Vegeta, Vegeta > Krillin, therefore Goku > Krillin.

Black cutting space-time is nothing. SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu did that simply by screaming.

Kefla claiming she could one-shot a universe is an exaggeration. This is the same dumb logic people use to scale Cell to solar system buster whatever the fuck that means.

Jiren transcending time is nonsensible and unquantifiable. Simply brainless hype. In the manga it is explained that Hit's Time Skip cannot be used effectively on someone stronger than Hit himself. Plain and simple, no need to go through this "transcends time" bullshit explanation.

"Shaking infinity" so by your logic Goku's power = infinity. Another nonsensible and unquantifiable piece of hype.

No, that's just another example of an inconsistency from Toyotaro, like SSJ1 Cauifla in the manga being only a little strong than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku, yet being able to hurt Golden Freeza (who should be able to one-shot her in just his 1st form by now).

It only shows that Toyotaro is a bad powerscaler, not that powerscaling the series is dumb.

Absolutely incorrect on the bold. Japanese dialogue:

「私が戦った最初の超サイヤ人より全然強いです」

"The first Super Saiyan I fought was nowhere near this level of strength."

There were no rules on how the energy of a planet would fare against a SSG-level opponent until now. Headcanons with universe-tier and all that are not the in-universe rules.

Otherwise, you might as well say that an Earth-infused Genkidama defeating Kid Buu is bad powerscaling.

[ruler9871]

Powerscaling based on destructive capacity is the main and most direct form of powerscaling there is. Rejecting it would be nonsensical.

Also, there have been numerous universal/above-4th dimensional feats and statements after BoG (like Black cutting the space-time fabric with his scythe, Kefla claiming she could one-shot a universe, Jiren transcending time just by powering up, Omen Goku shaking Infinity, etc) so it is hardly an outlier.

No it is not. Comparing character feats relative to each other is the most direct form of powerscaling. Goku > Vegeta, Vegeta > Krillin, therefore Goku > Krillin.

Black cutting space-time is nothing. SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu did that simply by screaming.

Kefla claiming she could one-shot a universe is an exaggeration. This is the same dumb logic people use to scale Cell to solar system buster whatever the fuck that means.

Jiren transcending time is nonsensible and unquantifiable. Simply brainless hype. In the manga it is explained that Hit's Time Skip cannot be used effectively on someone stronger than Hit himself. Plain and simple, no need to go through this "transcends time" bullshit explanation.

"Shaking infinity" so by your logic Goku's power = infinity. Another nonsensible and unquantifiable piece of hype.

No, that's just another example of an inconsistency from Toyotaro, like SSJ1 Cauifla in the manga being only a little strong than Namek arc SSJ1 Goku, yet being able to hurt Golden Freeza (who should be able to one-shot her in just his 1st form by now).

It only shows that Toyotaro is a bad powerscaler, not that powerscaling the series is dumb.

Absolutely incorrect on the bold. Japanese dialogue:

「私が戦った最初の超サイヤ人より全然強いです」

"The first Super Saiyan I fought was nowhere near this level of strength."

There were no rules on how the energy of a planet would fare against a SSG-level opponent until now. Headcanons with universe-tier and all that are not the in-universe rules.

Otherwise, you might as well say that an Earth-infused Genkidama defeating Kid Buu is bad powerscaling.

1. If BoG SSG Goku could destroy a universe with a few punches, then Kefla (who is WAY stronger in just base) should be able to one-shot one (and no one in the show denied that she could), so it's not a contradiction.

Cell (and SSJ2 kid Gohan) being able to one-shot a solar system is backed up in every official guide to touches on the topic (and nobody in-universe denied it when he said he could), so that's a bad argument.

2. You are making an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you don't like and/or understand a concept in a fictional story doesn't mean it isnt valid to it.

Jiren (and UI Goku) transcending and being stronger than Time itself was something outright stated and shown in the show itself, so you can't deny it.

And about Goku shaking Infinity: you don't literally need infinite power or omnipotence to shake or destroy an infinite realm (which is common power/feat in a lot of fiction like DC & Marvel Comics). So that's another bad argument.

3. Do you have a source on that quote, because from what I remember Freeza in the manga said that she was only a little better than Namek arc SSJ1.

4. And your last point assumes that all planets have the same level of energy (which even in real life is false).

Even if they aren't universe busters, they still shouldn't be threatened by merely planet-level attacks at this point when they're on guard (which these characters were well above after the Namek saga), so it's still a contradiction.

[TheDecentSaiyaman]

I was just trying to think on how this arc really pertains to Goku and Vegeta, but I wonder if it's really not supposed to be about them at all. Maybe this is ultimately going to be Buu's arc? I'm really curious to see what they do with the Grand Supreme Kai. I don't imagine they'll revert Mr. Buu to Kid Buu/South Kai Buu (or at least I personally hope they don't), I just don't really know where that would go plot-wise and we've already had a whole arc of that. But maybe he and Grand Supreme Kai will have some sort of relationship in this arc? I could see them teaming up to use magic to seal Moro again.

It's too early to tell what direction they might go, but I think there's potential. I hope Moro's true motives turn out to be something more interesting. He seems like a pretty savvy villain so far. Him not killing Cranberry was surprising compared to villains past, so I think his motives may be more elusive than we thought.

I've yet to really get into the whole Galactic Patrol thing in general with Super, but I'm really this is the arc that turns that around for me. It seems like a fun idea, it's just that I'd prefer to be delving deeper into the gods/multiverse. But a change of pace is admittedly nice!

[Rakurai]

1. If BoG SSG Goku could destroy a universe with a few punches, then Kefla (who is WAY stronger in just base) should be able to one-shot one (and no one in the show denied that she could), so it's not a contradiction.

Cell (and SSJ2 kid Gohan) being able to one-shot a solar system is backed up in every official guide to touches on the topic (and nobody in-universe denied it when he said he could), so that's a bad argument.

2. You are making an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you don't like and/or understand a concept in a fictional story doesn't mean it isnt valid to it.

Jiren (and UI Goku) transcending and being stronger than Time itself was something outright stated and shown in the show itself, so you can't deny it.

And about Goku shaking Infinity: you don't literally need infinite power or omnipotence to shake or destroy an infinite realm (which is common power/feat in a lot of fiction like DC & Marvel Comics). So that's another bad argument.

3. Do you have a source on that quote, because from what I remember Freeza in the manga said that she was only a little better than Namek arc SSJ1.

4. And your last point assumes that all planets have the same level of energy (which even in real life is false).

Even if they aren't universe busters, they still shouldn't be threatened by merely planet-level attacks at this point when they're on guard (which these characters were well above after the Namek saga), so it's still a contradiction.

1. BoG Goku cannot destroy the universe with a few punches. The fist-to-fist clash with Beerus caused quakes in the universe which threatened it. Not the same thing.

Let's say Cell can bust a solar system with his Kamehameha. Great. SSJ2 Gohan's comeback Kamehameha which is just as strong and overpowered it. And he blew up nothing except Cell. But by your logic, Cell is still stronger because he could blow up a solar system yet SSJ2 Gohan couldn't. Do you see how erroneous and misleading these destructive tiers are?

2. "Appeal to incredulity fallacy" this statement brings literally nothing to the table. Tell me how does this help compare Kefla to SSR Black who can cut the very fabric of space-time as opposed to just physical matter. Well? Who is stronger based on those statements alone?

Your unquantifiable statements cannot place character tiers relative to each other. Simple as that. Saying someone transcends time vs. cutting spacetime vs. someone can destroy a universe vs. someone shakes infinity, you cannot make a direct comparison. Why don't I see any "time-breaking tiers" or "space-time fabric cutting-tiers"? How does someone claim A > B > C based on these unquantifiable pieces of hype? You are deluding yourself if you think this is how powerscaling should be done in DB.

We are not talking about Marvel or DC. We are talking about DB. Don't bring other comics with their own set of rules and physics into this. It is as stupid as comparing Goku to Superman. Once you try to validate your point in one franchise with logic from another separate franchise, you are automatically reaching and making a bad argument.

3. I have the Japanese volumes of DBS. I took the quote straight out of the panel. 100% fact and I swear by it. Whereas your statement is 100% false with no base ground.

For the record, Viz translates it to: "The first SSJ I fought wasn't nearly this strong." Which means Namek SSJ Goku is nowhere near the power of SSJ Caulifla. How can you make an argument or appeal to it without even double-checking your facts yourself first? Your attempts are poor and your research skills are poor.

4. Ah okay so by your logic, Planet Namek > SSG > Universe 7 > Planet Earth > Kid Buu. Great, now we're putting planet energies on different tiers too.

[Rakurai]

This isn't like F. Trunks' sword being able to cut Frieza.

Exactly. This is like F. Trunks's Genkidama Sword being able to defeat Fused Zamasu.

Like, literally.

I think Moro's use of the planet is more believable given the Genkidama sword was pretty asspullish and far weaker in magnitude by comparison, given it obtained only the energy from a few people. Whereas a planet's life energy is pretty much up in the air as to how strong it's supposed to be.

It's too early to tell what direction they might go, but I think there's potential. I hope Moro's true motives turn out to be something more interesting. He seems like a pretty savvy villain so far. Him not killing Cranberry was surprising compared to villains past, so I think his motives may be more elusive than we thought.

I've yet to really get into the whole Galactic Patrol thing in general with Super, but I'm really this is the arc that turns that around for me. It seems like a fun idea, it's just that I'd prefer to be delving deeper into the gods/multiverse. But a change of pace is admittedly nice!

Honestly it would've been so much more interesting if Toyotarou delved deeper into the multiverse lore. Especially since he did allude to other parts in the previous arcs, like the time machine from U12.

Is Cranberry really the name of that Frieza fodder?

[GodVegetto91]

Yes, this is why i liked the “Fake” spoilers that came out a while ago MUCH BETTER! Than the actual manga chapter’s content that came out. Moro using his magic to create an illusion for Vegeta whereby he sees his own body melting away, and to make Goku’s body super-duper heavy, to the point where he can not even move, was way cooler! Also, in those “fake spoilers” he already wished for youth and to regain his full power! The only reason people hated those spoilers was because of the little Goku tidbit that didn’t make any sense. Just admit it. What we actually got was just flat out BORING.

[ruler9871]

1. If BoG SSG Goku could destroy a universe with a few punches, then Kefla (who is WAY stronger in just base) should be able to one-shot one (and no one in the show denied that she could), so it's not a contradiction.

Cell (and SSJ2 kid Gohan) being able to one-shot a solar system is backed up in every official guide to touches on the topic (and nobody in-universe denied it when he said he could), so that's a bad argument.

2. You are making an Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you don't like and/or understand a concept in a fictional story doesn't mean it isnt valid to it.

Jiren (and UI Goku) transcending and being stronger than Time itself was something outright stated and shown in the show itself, so you can't deny it.

And about Goku shaking Infinity: you don't literally need infinite power or omnipotence to shake or destroy an infinite realm (which is common power/feat in a lot of fiction like DC & Marvel Comics). So that's another bad argument.

3. Do you have a source on that quote, because from what I remember Freeza in the manga said that she was only a little better than Namek arc SSJ1.

4. And your last point assumes that all planets have the same level of energy (which even in real life is false).

Even if they aren't universe busters, they still shouldn't be threatened by merely planet-level attacks at this point when they're on guard (which these characters were well above after the Namek saga), so it's still a contradiction.

1. BoG Goku cannot destroy the universe with a few punches. The fist-to-fist clash with Beerus caused quakes in the universe which threatened it. Not the same thing.

Let's say Cell can bust a solar system with his Kamehameha. Great. SSJ2 Gohan's comeback Kamehameha which is just as strong and overpowered it. And he blew up nothing except Cell. But by your logic, Cell is still stronger because he could blow up a solar system yet SSJ2 Gohan couldn't. Do you see how erroneous and misleading these destructive tiers are?

2. "Appeal to incredulity fallacy" this statement brings literally nothing to the table. Tell me how does this help compare Kefla to SSR Black who can cut the very fabric of space-time as opposed to just physical matter. Well? Who is stronger based on those statements alone?

Your unquantifiable statements cannot place character tiers relative to each other. Simple as that. Saying someone transcends time vs. cutting spacetime vs. someone can destroy a universe vs. someone shakes infinity, you cannot make a direct comparison. Why don't I see any "time-breaking tiers" or "space-time fabric cutting-tiers"? How does someone claim A > B > C based on these unquantifiable pieces of hype? You are deluding yourself if you think this is how powerscaling should be done in DB.

We are not talking about Marvel or DC. We are talking about DB. Don't bring other comics with their own set of rules and physics into this. It is as stupid as comparing Goku to Superman. Once you try to validate your point in one franchise with logic from another separate franchise, you are automatically reaching and making a bad argument.

3. I have the Japanese volumes of DBS. I took the quote straight out of the panel. 100% fact and I swear by it. Whereas your statement is 100% false with no base ground.

For the record, Viz translates it to: "The first SSJ I fought wasn't nearly this strong." Which means Namek SSJ Goku is nowhere near the power of SSJ Caulifla. How can you make an argument or appeal to it without even double-checking your facts yourself first? Your attempts are poor and your research skills are poor.

4. Ah okay so by your logic, Planet Namek > SSG > Universe 7 > Planet Earth > Kid Buu. Great, now we're putting planet energies on different tiers too.

1. Beerus used the same amount of power as SSG Goku when they clashed, which simply halves the feat. So to say Goku since then couldn't destroy the universe with just a few punches (since the shockwaves came from his raw power) is stupid. And again, nothing in the series suggest that Kefla can't one-shot a universe, when weaker characters like BoG Goku pulled off similar things.

Gohan focused his blast exclusively at Cell and redirected it away from the Solar system. That's why it didn't destroy the Earth. Again, your argument is the fallacy people try to use to claim that no one in Z could blow up a planet (despite actually doing so).

If an official source (multiple actually) says something is a certain way, then you can't deny it out of your bias.

2. Again, you use the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Kefla is stronger than Goku Black, and the Buu saga already demonstrated that being able to break dimensions and such is merely a matter of how strong you are (no hax required). So logically Kefla should be able to do the same space-time cutting feats as Black Rose. Its literally that simple, nothing "unquantifiable" at all.

You tried to argue that things like be "stronger than time" are nonsensical, when I merely pointed out that things like that are common in fiction, and exist in Dragonball rather you like it or not.

4. I pointed out that Goku & Vegeta being damaged by planet level attacks at this point (on guard) is extremely dumb. Your argument here makes zero sense.

[Rakurai]

1. Beerus used the same amount of power as SSG Goku when they clashed, which simply halves the feat. So to say Goku since then couldn't destroy the universe with just a few punches (since the shockwaves came from his raw power) is stupid. And again, nothing in the series suggest that Kefla can't one-shot a universe, when weaker characters like BoG Goku pulled off similar things.

Gohan focused his blast exclusively at Cell and redirected it away from the Solar system. That's why it didn't destroy the Earth. Again, your argument is the fallacy people try to use to claim that no one in Z could blow up a planet (despite actually doing so).

If an official source (multiple actually) says something is a certain way, then you can't deny it out of your bias.

2. Again, you use the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Kefla is stronger than Goku Black, and the Buu saga already demonstrated that being able to break dimensions and such is merely a matter of how strong you are (no hax required). So logically Kefla should be able to do the same space-time cutting feats as Black Rose. Its literally that simple, nothing "unquantifiable" at all.

You tried to argue that things like be "stronger than time" are nonsensical, when I merely pointed out that things like that are common in fiction, and exist in Dragonball rather you like it or not.

4. I pointed out that Goku & Vegeta being damaged by planet level attacks at this point (on guard) is extremely dumb. Your argument here makes zero sense.

1. Goku punches the universe and destroys it. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Are you saying that Goku punches so hard he causes shockwaves that can destroy the universe? Why didn't this happen with Merged Zamasu, who gave no fucks about the universe after Vegetto both anime and manga? Or Broly, whose SSG+ power was uncontrollable and wild to himself?

There are subsequent SSG+ tier battles that contradict the original notion from BoG. Only battles with legit GoDs have threatened the host universe's existence. SSG Goku vs Beerus is the outlier to this, not the norm.

Gohan focused his blast exclusively at Cell and redirected it away from the Solar system.

is just pure headcanon.

I understand there are sources like Daizenshuu 7 that claim Cell could blow up the solar system with his Kamehameha. Saiyan arc Vegeta himself could blow up the Earth if he wanted to. But these destructive feats are not proper feats, only there for glamour if the author wills it. They're wildly inconsistent. They cannot be used to scale characters relative to each other. Universe-level shit included. And it doesn't take a "universe-level" punch to damage a SSG or even a planet-level punch to damage a SSJ.

2. I am going to repeat this one last time. You cannot quantify these feats to scale characters relative to each other. Simple as that. You gain absolutely nothing from saying SSR Black cut space-time, Kefla blows away a universe (which is debatable since it's not fully supported she's on par with a GoD). You gain a proper comparison from saying SSB-KK Goku > Black, SSJ2 Kefla > SSB-KK Goku, and by logic SSJ2 Kefla > SSR Black.

"Stronger than time" is nonsensical and brainless hype. It makes zero sense and doesn't do anything to powerscale. I don't care about Marvel or DC or other series apart from DB, so please try not to bring them in again for powerscaling purposes.

4. It debunks a notion that attacks need to have some kind of universe-level destructive capacity to hurt these fighters. Because otherwise the attacks would be causing universal shockwaves like in BoG all the time. Which is obviously false.

Even in the Broly film, there's nothing of that sort when Rage Broly goes toe-to-toe against SSG Goku and begins destroying the environment.