"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[UpFromTheSkies]

I wonder if Granola's power up is gonna lead to an even bigger threat? The only things making me give thought to this were a few lines in this latest chapter.

"You may be the strongest today, but you don't know who or what tomorrow will bring"

"Theres no better way to make new enemies pop outta the woodwork than by brandishing that sort of power"

The 1st line just makes me thing either Vegeta or Goku (or both) will just surpass him, which makes sense.

The 2nd line is what makes me think someone unknown might show up. Maybe the heeters use the Dragonballs? The one guy clearly knows about them.

Thoughts?

My prediction is that at some point Goku and Vegeta will offer to help Granolah find the Super Dragon Balls so they can wish back the Cerealians and atone for what the Saiyans did in the past, but there will be someone just as strong or stronger than Granolah from another universe that is also looking for them. I'm hoping for some epic Granolah / Ultra Instinct Hakaishin Gogeta tag team fighting.

[ZodiacBeast]

I see no reason why the wish has not been fulfilled. Why would the dragon lie about Granolah being the strongest in the universe? And Whis has also expressed concern about his presence. If before that there would not be many credible ways on how Granolah could become the strongest, this definitely will not be the case now that he only has 3 years left (assuming he did not actually become the strongest). What the story is making clear is that this power is not absolute (as we know well in DB) and how it probably will not be worth the price (since Granolah already has a target on his back because of that)

Right I think it is more this. Granolah may be the strongest now but he used up all his potential and limited his life span. He rushed things and doesn’t has any more room for growth. Someone else can easily grow stronger.

If Granolah doesn't end up teaming up with Goku, Vegeta and the others, then I could see him somehow incorporating Seventhree into himself when he gets bounced.

[MCDaveG]

I would love to have some stronger opponent than Granola, with some sensible plot as to why.
Granolah might turn out to be this tragic hero the characters might team up with, much like Tapion.

What I really won't like - Granolah goes against Goku and Vegeta and through some more power-ups and deus-ex machinas, he becomes the main villain, engaged in nonsensical battle of brawls spanning countless chapters, before it gets somehow resolved and he learns something like: ''Revenge is not the way, I can see the power of friendship and now I can die, because my time ran out.''

Fingers crossed

[PurestEvil]

What I really won't like - Granolah goes against Goku and Vegeta and through some more power-ups and deus-ex machinas, he becomes the main villain, engaged in nonsensical battle of brawls spanning countless chapters, before it gets somehow resolved and he learns something like: ''Revenge is not the way, I can see the power of friendship and now I can die, because my time ran out.''

Fingers crossed

I agree with this. Like I have said before, we are at a crossroads in the storywriting of Dragon Ball Super: either Toyotarou wises up and writes something new or we are gonna be stuck in the same old tropey bullshit throughout the story.

[jd55513]

My thoughts on the recent developments on Hakai, Ultra Instinct, Vegeta growth, and Granolas wish:

Vegeta with Hakai, could actually become as strong as Goku!
He could because of the recent developments of Hakai. Hakai seemingly has tiers to it, such as UI.
Because Hakai is litterally antithetical to UI, they are both godly moves relative to one another.

If UI can avoid any and all danger, than Hakai and destroy any and all things.
If you can't hit a UI user, just envelope your ki with Hakai energy Like Toppo and, then you would have a armor of destruction that would destroy anything that touches it
There is a lot of plot ways to make Vegeta scale back to Goku, while also keeping Beerus stronger than both.

As for why some people think Goku is above Beerus because he continues to train with Whis:
Because Gokus current pinnacle of power is based around Ultra Instinct, which is something Beerus cannot help him with.
Whis is the only master who can further help Goku improve and evolve Ultra Instinct to it's highest form.

Vegeta trains with Beerus, because Hakai is more suited for a guy like Vegeta, and the best guy who can teach him that would be Beerus.

Goku can't learn Hakai to a level that would require Beerus, because Goku is more of an Earthling than a Saiyan, that and his character archetype of having a "Monkey mind" that is simple and gentle is the prime reason he was able to achieve Ultra Instinct.

Goku probably also knows, he can't beat Beerus until he reaches higher mastery of UI

It seems for the story they want to keep Goku and Vegeta relative to one another.
Plus let's not forget, Goku will likely improve Ultra Instinct further(it may even change form)
We may see new abilities of UI and so if Goku is in a higher tier of UI than compared to Vegetas Hakai, then we can say that Goku is likely stronger.

One theory I came up with is, how to include 0G-73 into the story.

With Granolas new power he will get tipped on the location of frieza or the Saiyans. If he meets the Saiyans first. He will fight Goku and Vegeta.
Since the arc is about Goku furthering Ultra Instinct and Vegeta learning Hakai.
When Granola fights them and beats them. Perhaps Vegeta will try to Hakai Granola and like Goku, will fail at completely erasing him.
Granola escapes and attends to his wounds by use of the Heata. They decide to use 0G-73 and use his parts and fuse him to Granola. This would allow Granola to have the knowledge of what's still in 73.
Which could be piccolos healing, Vegetas Spirit fission, Moros magic and Merus angelic ki and Ultra Instinct.
Remember that as far as 73s abilities. He had unlimited stamina(Andriod) data storage (what the Heatas were looking at)
His copy abilities which can aquire a person power(level of ki) and the technique for 30 mins up to three abilities.
He also had the BACKUP abilities such as the case with Moro.
That is the key! If he still had a Backup of Moro's power or when as Moro-73 If Moro used it before dying and when they defused the effects were transfered back to 73.

Also him fusing with 73 may fix the whole having only 3 years as well.

My guess is similar to the theme from the Moro arc. If you don't have a trained body to handle raw Strength (Saganbo or Moro) then the power will be useless or possibly deadly. Perhaps this is the challenge Granola will have to face.
He needs a better body or "Nikutai"


As for the idea that Granola has both UI AND Hakai:

I disagree with the idea that Granola is using BOTH Ultra Instinct and Hakai. The reason is because both are Buddhist-Daoist state of minds, that are opposite in nature! Ultra instinct is based on the idea of "Mushin no shin" and is based on on a empty mind, usually involved a physical change in the characters form, such as eyes, hair and the glow of their aura.

Hakai is a Buddhist-Daoist state of mind based on nothing but destruction.
You can't use both at the same time!
There is more evidence of Granola having Hakai than Ultra Instinct.
Also keep on mind you need serious training to achieve Ultra Instinct, and your body has to be honed to use it.
Moro, Ginyu and Saganbo are examples of how a untrained mind or body make great power ineffective.

After thinking about it more, to use Ultra Instinct and Hakai requires God ki.
It's still difficult to say if Granola now has God ki

I agree with your analysis on how being the strongest, could imply that if Goku is the strongest mortal excluding the gods(Beerus and Whis). Then the Dragon Toronbo, just gave him the level of power (ki) and the techniques that said strongest had(Hakai and Ultra Instinct). What also would be scary is if, that is the case, what if Granola has the Saiyans power(zenkai) and all of Gokus techniques??!
The Dragon made him the greatest warrior in the universe excluding the gods.
But It's not clear if the dragon gave him the knowledge and body to handle both of those godly techniques. Remember Goku in the TOP achieved the complete form and still needed to learn how to tap into it and hone his body.
Granola was granted the power that makes him the strongest (level of ki and ki control)
It's unclear if the dragon gave him the knowledge of UI but it seems he can do the Hakai based on the panels
But as for the evidence concerning God ki...
The Hakai functions similarly to the idea of matter-antimatter annihilation reactions.
Such as when Baryonic matter interacts with antibaryons

This happens in core of stars, and in particle accelerators such as CERN.
This releases pure energy in the from of bosons like Photons.

It seems based on the chapter and on previous panels of the Hakai being done in the manga.
It's fair to say that Granola has Hakai now
When Vegeta does the hakai on the small rock successfully, it cuts to granola destroying a huge boulder with the same explosive power as beerus


Then granola says "that explosion...what was that technique"

Look at the particle effects of the attack from Beerus, the small rock and against merged zamasu, it's the same effect, grains of sand.

God of Destruction Energy is a form of God ki. Correct?

Just like how UI uses God Ki.
Every character, angel, god of destruction or even the Saiyans who used the godly techniques employed God ki correct?

It makes sense, because when Goku did the Hakai on Merged Zamasu, he was in Blue perfected, Which by definition, use God ki.
Also consider, that When Toppo did Hakai, he had to transform, similarly to Super Saiyan God ritual. He did training with Belmod, so Toppo has God ki

Also consider that We know after the wish, Granola, when he met the Heatas, and they joked about his power, they couldn't "tell" he was stronger, implying they can't sense his ki because it's possibly now God ki.
One of the features of God ki, is that you can't sense it.

[Dragono]

One thing that has always been made clear in dragon ball, is that taking shortcuts never works out. Super even kept that theme so I don't think this power up is all its cracked up to be or will be.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Guys, I have a question about Vegeta implementing the Hakai into his arsenal.

According to Beerus, the technique is all about erasing the target from existence. Anything less than that isn't utilizing the technique in its true form. Knowing that erasure is the basis of the Hakai, doesn't this make it....pretty dangerous? I'm looking at this from the standpoint of Vegeta looking to prove himself as the strongest against Goku. Vegeta wants to defeat Goku, but utilizing a power that can quickly erase someone from existence seems like a very extreme road to take.

When it comes to the GoDs, Hakai is natural to them given their status, but I'm really wondering how someone like Vegeta could comfortably wield a power like this. Perhaps the Hakai mastery will greatly elevate his power and allow him to control its power to avoid that. I'm really interested to see where this goes.

[Koitsukai]

Guys, I have a question about Vegeta implementing the Hakai into his arsenal.

According to Beerus, the technique is all about erasing the target from existence. Anything less than that isn't utilizing the technique in its true form. Knowing that erasure is the basis of the Hakai, doesn't this make it....pretty dangerous? I'm looking at this from the standpoint of Vegeta looking to prove himself as the strongest against Goku. Vegeta wants to defeat Goku, but utilizing a power that can quickly erase someone from existence seems like a very extreme road to take.

When it comes to the GoDs, Hakai is natural to them given their status, but I'm really wondering how someone like Vegeta could comfortably wield a power like this. Perhaps the Hakai mastery will greatly elevate his power and allow him to control its power to avoid that. I'm really interested to see where this goes.

I guess he'll learn how to control it to a comfortable degree where he could harm his opponent with it, without destroying their body, just like Beerus took him out by just blowing up his armor, damaging to a KO without killing him.
There's also the sand-like hakai, that erased Present Zamasu and almost does so with Merged Zamasu, probably that kind of hakai is easier to pull off than this one, or perhaps it's the end goal. There seems to be more than just one "version" of the technique.

I also hope the learning of the technique comes with an improved spirit/ki for Geets.

[Dragon Wukong]

One thing I'm not sure anyone has brought up before.

Hakai almost assuredly doesn't require god ki, as we can see Vegeta using it in his base form. I can see this justifying it as an ability the dragon could grant Granolah, as it seemingly granted him both power and abilities to make him the "strongest warrior".

[LoganForkHands73]

I do think that Goku demonstrating Hakai all the way back in the Zamasu arc has diminished this achievement of Vegeta's. I mean, even though Goku claimed he "botched it", he still casually started atomising Fused Zamasu's flesh and only failed to finish him because Zamasu used a human shield. It is a bit hard to applaud Vegeta destroying a few pebbles when Goku almost destroyed an immortal god. Goku's use of it increasingly feels like some strange anomaly in the current climate. For real, how on earth did he just casually imitate a technique that obliterates a person into sand?

I guess there is something to be said about the fact that Vegeta does it without any apparent exertion of "god ki".

As interesting as the Granola segments are, it feels like Goku and Vegeta have been stuck on Beerus's planet for ages now. Their standard "who's the strongest" banter in the last chapter left something to be desired.

[Hugo Boss]

I think that’s because Goku is a genius when it comes to learning something new, while Vegeta has to work harder for it. Vegeta was born with higher potential than Goku, but Goku upgrades quicker, making Vegeta seem not very impressive at first, but as soon as he gets the gist of it, he catches up Goku with ease.

[Gt91]

Manga 15 cover HQ

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExKwxn6VcAo ... ame=medium

[jd55513]

One thing I'm not sure anyone has brought up before.

Hakai almost assuredly doesn't require god ki, as we can see Vegeta using it in his base form. I can see this justifying it as an ability the dragon could grant Granolah, as it seemingly granted him both power and abilities to make him the "strongest warrior".

I disagree, God ki is a prerequisite for any godly transformation or godly technique.
God of Destruction Energy is a form of God ki.

Just like how UI uses God Ki.
Every character, angel, god of destruction or even the Saiyans who used the godly techniques employed God ki correct?

It makes sense, because when Goku did the Hakai on Merged Zamasu, he was in Blue perfected, Which by definition, use God ki.
Also consider, that When Toppo did Hakai, he had to transform, similarly to Super Saiyan God ritual. He did training with Belmod, so Toppo has God ki

Also consider that We know after the wish, Granola, when he met the Heatas, and they joked about his power, they couldn't "tell" he was stronger, implying they can't sense his ki because it's possibly now God ki.
One of the features of God ki, is that you can't sense it.

The reason that Vegeta used Hakai in base, is one of two reasons. Goku and Vegeta, have successfully concealed god ki in their bodies from leaking and transforming( In the Moro arc, when Dende is healing Goku and Vegeta it takes awhile because their level of ki is enormous i.e god ki)
Or the Saiyan beyond god thing from BOG is now back into canon.

[Thani]

To be fair, there's no reason to assume they can't use god ki in their normal state. God and Blue are just transformations that grant greater access to it, with Blue in particular being what happens when Goku and Vegeta turn Super Saiyan (any level, really) while using god ki at the same time.

Still, it WOULD BE nice if Toyotaro or Toriyama cleared that up. As it stands, God Ki is extremely inconsistent and seems to fluctuate between massively important and absolutely irrelevant depending on the occasion :T

[Grimlock]

God Ki in base form means the Saiyan beyond God state. I don't think Toyotaro will get rid of Super Saiyan God.


Is this the dawn of more headache?

[jd55513]

God Ki in base form means the Saiyan beyond God state. I don't think Toyotaro will get rid of Super Saiyan God.


Is this the dawn of more headache?

It's because the hint of the arc is that Ultra Instinct as a "technique" is not mastered.
The technique is complete(silver hair) however like with previous themes and ki principles of the past sagas (Z with Super Saiyan, the grade 2 and 3, then finally grade 4 full power, without the constant ki depletion caused by strain)
And Super with Blue(They unlock Blue, then find ways to increase it's power i.e Kaioken, then finally get Blue perfected, which again is all about ki control and efficiency.
The same logic should apply to Ultra Instinct, even though it's a Buddhist-Daoist mind state that causes a transformation in mortals.
It's still a transformation with principal's of ki involved. Goku in the Moro arc has to reduce the strain of the form, by honing "Nikutai" and the other spiritual aspects of ki(Genki, Yuki and Shoki)
This allowed Ultra Instinct to progress further with new abilities (body hardening)

With Whis statements about Ultra Instinct and what we current know about the angels.(they use Ultra Instinct in base with no strain or ki depletion)
That is likely the ultimate aim of Ultra Instinct.
Using it in base and reducing the strain.
Maybe this is what End of Z Goku will have.
I expect something similar to Grade 4 Super Saiyan, but for Ultra Instinct.
Maybe even another cosmetic change too.

[LightBing]

I do think that Goku demonstrating Hakai all the way back in the Zamasu arc has diminished this achievement of Vegeta's. I mean, even though Goku claimed he "botched it", he still casually started atomising Fused Zamasu's flesh and only failed to finish him because Zamasu used a human shield. It is a bit hard to applaud Vegeta destroying a few pebbles when Goku almost destroyed an immortal god. Goku's use of it increasingly feels like some strange anomaly in the current climate. For real, how on earth did he just casually imitate a technique that obliterates a person into sand?

I guess there is something to be said about the fact that Vegeta does it without any apparent exertion of "god ki".

As interesting as the Granola segments are, it feels like Goku and Vegeta have been stuck on Beerus's planet for ages now. Their standard "who's the strongest" banter in the last chapter left something to be desired.

I agree, clearly at the time Hakai was nothing more than a insta-kill move.

That said, I doubt Goku just aced it. He probably practiced before resorting to the move. He had Completed SSB in the pocket fair to say Hakai is something he practiced as well.

Hopefully the inners workings will be explained, because right now we have to guess a lot.

[Xeogran]

I just want Goku to go back to Earth and interact with someone else than Vegeta and Whis.
Hopefully Granolah doesn't magically find his way onto Beerus' Planet, and they get to fight somewhere else.

[Koitsukai]

I'm a little confused with hakai as a concept.
We've seen things and people getting hakaied into sand without the release of energy mentioned this month, and we can't claim it wasn't hakai because Beerus, vs Zamasu, even yelled 'hakai'.
Seems like it's the go-to technique of the hakaishin when needing to erase someone, it was used by Beerus, Vermouth, and also by Granolah, and what Goku copied vs Zamasu and that boulder vs Moro seemed to be that version. It looks cleaner, you can erase a person or things without getting stuff nearby(like a new manga volume) compromised. Also seems to be a technique that can't be dialed down like the one Vegeta is learning.

But now with this new more explosive variation of hakai, where does the original insta-kill move fit?
this one seems to be harder to pull off, but nowhere near as effective as the original, I choose -and I guess Beerus too- turning Zamasu into sand over blowing him up any day of the week (and neither variation can kill immortals).

I guess the newer hakai is more suited for battle, requiring more focus of the mind, while the older hakai has only one function and might not be as hard to "master".

[AndLad92]

Manga 15 cover HQ

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExKwxn6VcAo ... ame=medium

Do we know which character is on this book's back spine?