"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

Still, do you think they'll actually kill Freeza off when he gets involved in the final battle? I mean, Freeza has this tendency of being revived one way or another, even if he dies, I won't be surprised if they manage to bring him back or someone similar to him.

[Gt91]

Still, do you think they'll actually kill Freeza off when he gets involved in the final battle? I mean, Freeza has this tendency of being revived one way or another, even if he dies, I won't be surprised if they manage to bring him back or someone similar to him.

I dont' think he'll die soon, maybe at the end of super.
He could get a power up instead.

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

Still, do you think they'll actually kill Freeza off when he gets involved in the final battle? I mean, Freeza has this tendency of being revived one way or another, even if he dies, I won't be surprised if they manage to bring him back or someone similar to him.

I dont' think he'll die soon, maybe at the end of super.
He could get a power up instead.

I can see it now. Platinum Freeza is coming. Or something around those lines at least.

[Koitsukai]

Still, do you think they'll actually kill Freeza off when he gets involved in the final battle? I mean, Freeza has this tendency of being revived one way or another, even if he dies, I won't be surprised if they manage to bring him back or someone similar to him.

IIRC, you can't come back from hakai... and Vegeta really hates Freeza. Stirring up stuff from the times Freeza used the saiyans might end up in Vegeta putting an end to Freeza.

[Hellspawn28]

Freeza is too popular to kill off, they will keep him alive.

[JulieYBM]

I hope Dragon Ball Super doesn’t get “cancelled” because of the whole Macki scene xD (Pun intended.)

Sorry, I just HAD to! xD

It won't be. JUMP doesn't care about women at all and the wealthy almost never, ever face consequences for their actions.

Just like in real life creepy men will continue to be able to sexually harass us women in these comics for children and face no consequences because that's what the creators find appropriate and funny for their comic aimed at kids.

While I don’t think this particular scene is so bad compared to some others yeah Shueshia is not known for its progressiveness when it comes to gender issues.

I never called it the 'worst' scene, I merely said that I'm tired of this shit in media by men and aimed mostly at children. They're choosing to extended their line of harmful bullshit not just in their offices but in their comics, too.

[Kinokima]

It won't be. JUMP doesn't care about women at all and the wealthy almost never, ever face consequences for their actions.

Just like in real life creepy men will continue to be able to sexually harass us women in these comics for children and face no consequences because that's what the creators find appropriate and funny for their comic aimed at kids.

While I don’t think this particular scene is so bad compared to some others yeah Shueshia is not known for its progressiveness when it comes to gender issues.

I never called it the 'worst' scene, I merely said that I'm tired of this shit in media by men and aimed mostly at children. They're choosing to extended their line of harmful bullshit not just in their offices but in their comics.

I was agreeing with you not arguing with you about the particular scene

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

Freeza is too popular to kill off, they will keep him alive.

True. Every time Freeza dies in the canon timeline, he usually comes back. It's like trying to kill off William Afton, because it's damn near impossible as in his own words,'I always come back'. Only in alternate timelines does Freeza usually stay dead, and even then, they don't focus on that timeline for long in that aspect.

Prepare yourselves, Platinum/Silver Freeza form incoming once he becomes aware of the situation and uncovers a new form to save himself from death.

[JulieYBM]

While I don’t think this particular scene is so bad compared to some others yeah Shueshia is not known for its progressiveness when it comes to gender issues.

I never called it the 'worst' scene, I merely said that I'm tired of this shit in media by men and aimed mostly at children. They're choosing to extended their line of harmful bullshit not just in their offices but in their comics.

I was agreeing with you not arguing with you about the particular scene

Oh, yeah, I know that, I was trying to clarify what I thought was maybe poorly written about my original post.

[TKA]

I've made the bolded argument several times before but the treatment of women is extrinsic to the actual art itself and unrelated to Dragon Ball. Not to mention those discussions always end up terrible.

Absolute nonsense.

You just claimed that something that happened in a chapter of a Dragonball manga is not relevant to Dragonball.

Any claim that culture outside of the world of Dragonball is irrelevant to Dragonball is also patently ridiculous since to understand literally any piece of art that exists, you are required to have some awareness of culture outside of it.

This is just another version of the "keep politics outside of video games" nonsense. A reader is free to critique the work using any frame of reference they choose to. I can critique Dragonball from a Marxist perspective, and it's as valid as you critiquing it from a hypebro, power-level perspective. This open-endedness is what art is about.

Also, this is a damn forum. Telling people they can't discuss things is antithetical to the very nature of a message board. So long as they're respectful, it shouldn't matter.

[kemuri07]

Not gonna lie, I was a bit disappointed withthis chapter. If only because it felt like it was back to business as usual: Goku and Vegeta go through yet another training montage where they learn new abilities to fight another foe. And while, yeah, it's Dragon ball so of course this was to be expected, compared to the last couple of chapters that felt very "Un-Dragonball" in its structure, this felt like a come down. It's only a single chapter so I'm not letting it alarm me too much, but I'm really hoping that this goes into a much more interesting direction than another fist fight.

I was kind of hoping that Vegeta's training would bring out some sort of character development, but unfortunately it just seems like another new ability.

On the sexual harassment stuff: It's not even that the joke is offensive or shocking--it's just kind of lazy. It didn't bother me, but it's a really drawn out sequence that's not really funny. So I can't really see anyone dying on a hill to defend it.

It is weird that, despite this arc being about revenge against Freeza, that there have been no appearances by him to set him up as a threat. So I wonder if he is simply just an excuse to get these guys to fight each other.

[Yuji]

It's not that deep.

The point is that sexual harassment isn't something you should ever make light of, especially in a comic aimed at kids. Macki calls him out, but she's ultimately still coerced and the thrust of the scene still portrays it as a gag. It's half-hearted "progress" at best and it's not particularly funny.

There are ways to tackle this subject in fiction. This ain't one of them. If it's going to be a part of Zuno's character and played up in this manner then it's probably best to exclude him from the story altogether.

Art can make light of anything it wants, it's beholden to no rules. You can critique the societal implications of the scene if you wish to, but please don't make such reductive and restrictive statements as "x shouldn't be done in art."

You just claimed that something that happened in a chapter of a Dragonball manga is no relevant to Dragonball.

Any claim that culture outside of the world of Dragonball is irrelevant to Dragonball is also patently ridiculous since to understand literally any piece of art that exists, you are required to have some awareness of culture outside of it.

This is just another version of the "keep politics outside of video games" nonsense. A reader is free to critique the work using any frame of reference they choose to. I can critique Dragonball from a Marxist perspective, and it's as valid as you critiquing it from a hypebro, power-level perspective. This open-endedness is what art is about.

Also, this is a damn forum. Telling people they can't discuss things is antithetical to the very nature of a message board. So long as they're respectful, it shouldn't matter.

Embarrassing post considering the holier-than-thou tone you present yourself with, next time read things more carefully.

No, I claimed that a broader analysis of women's portrayal in media and Julie's tirade on the rich lay beyond the scope of Dragon Ball, this thread, and quite frankly this entire forum. That's what is "not that deep." You can analyze and critique the Zuno scene without extrapolating from it a reductive and pseudo-intellectual critique on industrial capitalism and patriarchal influence on art as a whole.

Now if you want to engage in a Marxist critique of Dragon Ball or whatever else, then I'm all for it, I love freedom. I engaged in a critique of property rights and copyright law in a different thread (not something I'm particularly proud of, but I'm illustrating the point that I'm a different kind of person than the caricature you've already constructed), but I oppose this particular discussion on principle because of various reasons, but I'll name three. Number one is that it doesn't breed discussion; I've lurked enough time in this forum before to know that anyone coming into a discussion of the sort already has their mind made up and nobody is looking to actually engage with the opposing view but just go on a self-satisfied and close-minded rant (see Julie's posts); number two is that most users engaging with that sort of critique, on both sides, quite frankly lack the necessary qualifications and emotional stability to discuss it with the degree of depth they try to discuss it at. And number three is that, as I said above, it's a kind of discussion that lays outside the scope of the forum; oftentimes these discussions last for 10+ pages and by the end Dragon Ball hasn't been mentioned beyond the first few pages, and the atmosphere of the thread had gotten so vitriolic that the moderators close it.

Now, again, if you want to engage in the critique all the same, then go for it, I am not "telling people they can't discuss things" because last time I checked I am not a moderator, I am merely giving my opinion in the same fashion as everyone else.

Finally, and because this degree of pompous ignorance really ticked my buttons, it is absolutely, objectively and demonstrably false that you can't critique anything without an awareness or acknowledgement of the culture and society around it. To so confidently say the contrary is, without getting into a lecture here, to ignore the degree of importance and influence various schools of criticism of the 20th century had, namely formalism, and to a lesser extent the New Critics and certain applications of semiotics. I too prefer to engage in post-structuralist modes of analysis, but formalist critiques have their own inherent merit.

[Tai Lung]

I don't know why people take a comic gag seriously ... the same thing happened with yurin in the anime

so I don't think beerus masters the UI better than goku when he also changes his appearance just like goku ...

[JulieYBM]

I don't know why people take a comic gag seriously ... the same thing happened with yurin in the anime

A bunch of men saying "lol isn't the sexual harassment of women funny?" Is...not funny. Men making light of the horrors they put us through in real life is not funny. It's the abuser mocking the trauma of their victim, only now through the lens of our corrupt, male-controlled society.

[DiscountDabi]

Ok, so at first with the Destruction Earring thing I was ready to write it off as another Dumb Toyotaro Decision and leave it at that.

Until it occurred to me that even though not all Gods of Destruction have the Earring, its never shown that any of those Gods who don’t have the Earring can’t use Hakai.

As long as you stick to Toyotaro’s Manga Continuity, it makes sense. So before the TOP, we see Beerus defeat Vegeta and say “You could probably be a God of Destruction in another Universe”

Vegeta at the time didn’t know Hakai, yet could be a God of Destruction in another universe. He could be just referring to his raw strength, but Its still something to consider. And its important to remember that the only God we see use Hakai without the earring is in the anime with Sidra.

We then see the Zen-Exhibition with The G.O.D’s fighting each other. If you notice, the one’s who don’t have the earring fought using their fists or other weapons, while the one’s who did have an earring use blasts a bunch. Again Implying that those Gods can’t use Hakai.

Then you have Toppo. In the Anime they gave him powers of destruction, but no such thing happens in the Manga despite the fact that he was still being trained to be a God of Destruction.

When It comes down to it, this detail with the earring when looking back on the past just kinda adds a bit of flavor to the Gods with the knowledge that not all of them actually can use Hakai.

[PurestEvil]

oh lord god, if you want to talk about the macki kissing zuno scene so much make another goddamn topic about it. We do not need to reiterate what we already discussed in the GT and Misogyny thread.

[Krillin1994]

I don't know why people take a comic gag seriously ... the same thing happened with yurin in the anime

A bunch of men saying "lol isn't the sexual harassment of women funny?" Is...not funny. Men making light of the horrors they put us through in real life is not funny. It's the abuser mocking the trauma of their victim, only now through the lens of our corrupt, male-controlled society.

Is it not reductive to equate finding things amusing on on fictional mediums means you find those things amusing in real life?

Is it not that same logic that sees those stuffy old politicians say violence in games and film breeds violent individuals.

I think obviously entertainment can be effective at sending messages and addressing issues, raising awareness for positive change.

But equally there’s no obligation of them to do so - the wider issues at large are things that need to be addressed through education of people in their younger years. It’s clear so many negative attitudes are learned behaviours, I.e racism

People need to have an awareness that just because they see something in entertainment doesn’t mean it’s to be replicated in real life.

A role of friends/family/peers/co-workers to call out friends on poor behaviour and let them know when things aren’t acceptable. Parents in particular should certainly make children aware in those formative years.

For example if I say I enjoy the role Leonardo Di Caprio played as a plantation owner in Django Unchained that doesn’t mean I condone slavery. Heck Smug Leo is one of the most popular memes. So is that problematic if people still enjoy it/find it funny despite all the racism that goes on in the world still?

Hopefully that’s not come off in a condescending way or anything, I made a post on one of the last pages touching on what I perceive the issues to be with that Zuno scene. But again I’m aware it’s not my place to decide what offends people, especially when I’m not marginalised a victim of injustice in this world as a cis white male.

I’m happy to listen to other’s opinions on this and have healthy discussion, always aware that there is always more I can learn on issues.

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

I wonder how long until Freeza notices that he's got people after him again. This probably isn't the first time people have tried to kill Freeza(let's be honest people tried for years and few succeeded). The Heeters might pretend to still be aligned with him but will turn on him(obviously, they're literally using everyone).

[PurestEvil]

I wonder how long until Freeza notices that he's got people after him again. This probably isn't the first time people have tried to kill Freeza(let's be honest people tried for years and few succeeded). The Heeters might pretend to still be aligned with him but will turn on him(obviously, they're literally using everyone).

Freeza was probably preparing himself for such an event. I expect him to have grown stronger since we last saw him.

[Koitsukai]

Ok, so at first with the Destruction Earring thing I was ready to write it off as another Dumb Toyotaro Decision and leave it at that.

Until it occurred to me that even though not all Gods of Destruction have the Earring, its never shown that any of those Gods who don’t have the Earring can’t use Hakai.

As long as you stick to Toyotaro’s Manga Continuity, it makes sense. So before the TOP, we see Beerus defeat Vegeta and say “You could probably be a God of Destruction in another Universe”

Vegeta at the time didn’t know Hakai, yet could be a God of Destruction in another universe. He could be just referring to his raw strength, but Its still something to consider. And its important to remember that the only God we see use Hakai without the earring is in the anime with Sidra.

We then see the Zen-Exhibition with The G.O.D’s fighting each other. If you notice, the one’s who don’t have the earring fought using their fists or other weapons, while the one’s who did have an earring use blasts a bunch. Again Implying that those Gods can’t use Hakai.

Then you have Toppo. In the Anime they gave him powers of destruction, but no such thing happens in the Manga despite the fact that he was still being trained to be a God of Destruction.

When It comes down to it, this detail with the earring when looking back on the past just kinda adds a bit of flavor to the Gods with the knowledge that not all of them actually can use Hakai.

I didn't even bother to check if the other GoDs had earrings. Interesting, Quitela the one implied to be on Beerus' level doesn't have one. Only the cat twins, Rumshi and Liquir do. 4 out of 12... and Vegeta. When Beerus spoke about the technique of the hakaishin, I felt he was talking about more than 4 out of 12.
This doesn't mean 8 hakaishin can't use hakai, we've seen Vermoud hakai a girl, so maybe it's just a lack of mastery to earn the earring. They can hakai shit out of existence (something even Goku almost does on his first try) but can't tone it down like Vegeta just learned how to.

Or, it's just some crappy item a couple of hakaishin share to feel better than the rest, or because they actually are and the top 4 get to wear a golden earring. I guess Vegeta is the 5th top user in that case, he is even allowed to proudly go show it around the universe.

Also, who gives out the earrings? the angels? do the GoDs go buy one whenever they master hakai? why did Beerus had one to spare? does he keep the box with all the earrings and hands it out when someone uses the technique?