"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:49 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:43 pm Art made by different people in different periods of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. It's only natural.
That's obviously true, but it's also too weak: art made by different people in the SAME period of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. Compare the DBZ anime with the Toei DBZ films, for example.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:10 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:49 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:43 pm Art made by different people in different periods of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. It's only natural.
That's obviously true, but it's also too weak: art made by different people in the SAME period of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. Compare the DBZ anime with the Toei DBZ films, for example.
Oh, absolutely. Yama'uchi and Ueda made some of the best Dragon Ball, all of which felt nothing like Toriyama.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:16 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:10 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:49 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:43 pm Art made by different people in different periods of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. It's only natural.
That's obviously true, but it's also too weak: art made by different people in the SAME period of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. Compare the DBZ anime with the Toei DBZ films, for example.
Oh, absolutely. Yama'uchi and Ueda made some of the best Dragon Ball, all of which felt nothing like Toriyama.
Forgive me but I thought I knew what your point was and now I realize I don't, what does this have to do with anything?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:16 pm

Zamasu is a God, it makes sense that he stands apart and is special, different, unique compared to the other villains, who are all monstrous mortals. It's logical really.

What we should be asking ourselves is why being special, different, unique is somehow seen as a character flaw here...

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:54 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:16 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:10 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:49 pm

That's obviously true, but it's also too weak: art made by different people in the SAME period of history will, in fact, feel different from one another. Compare the DBZ anime with the Toei DBZ films, for example.
Oh, absolutely. Yama'uchi and Ueda made some of the best Dragon Ball, all of which felt nothing like Toriyama.
Forgive me but I thought I knew what your point was and now I realize I don't, what does this have to do with anything?
My point is that expecting there to be a singular Dragon Ball feel is silly because it's impossible. Creators change with time, more than one creator creates Dragon Ball.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:17 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:36 pm I wouldn't go that far. In the manga, at least, it's clear that Zamasu is just this bratty, homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur who's never once taken seriously. That's very much in keeping with Dragon Ball's gods, who are only obstensibly gods while in truth being deeply incompetent at their duties.

And that's really the point of the arc, at least as Toriyama envisioned it: Zamasu isn't supposed to be some righteous or godlike character.

With that said, I think he's definitely one of the weaker mainline DB antagonists. There's really not much to him in terms of memorable traits or endearing quirks.
I think manga Black and Zamasu might have just as much if not more going on than manga Cell, a character who people remember being more interesting than he is because Norio Wakamoto voices him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by fleahop » Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:38 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:59 pm
fleahop wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:27 am Black and Zamasu in the Anime are unironically the best villains ever. They have literally all the qualities a villain should have, I can't really think of anything they're missing. Easy 10/10.
Well that's like, your opinion man.

Piccolo Daimao and Frieza are my top two. Elec may also get up there depending on how this story goes. He's very promising to be villainous in ways I haven't seen in DB before.

Zamas and Black in anime are a personal low point for me when it comes to major arcs.
Yes, Yes, of course I meant "in my opinion", thanks for the reply. :roll:
It's a quote from the Big Lebowski. I was just joking. I think I understand why people like Black and Zamas so much.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:38 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:41 pm I think that last bit is really important though: the reason he's not memorable or endearing is because he feels like he's borrowed from any one of a hundred lazier, tropey-er manga. He doesn't feel at home next to iconic, one-of-a-kind characters like Piccolo or Freeza or Buu because he just another overly familiar homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur.
He also doesn't do anything cool to stand out, King Piccolo was spitting his own minions and killed Shenlong, Vegeta was really stubborn and took forever to go down, Freeza has that politeness, an interesting game of cat and mouse, and is a fucking power house, Cell was at least smart when he was Imperfect, Fat Boo didn't understand the weight of his actions, Super Boo was the most pragmatic villain, Kid Boo was a destructive force (At least at first), the thing that stands out the most about manga Black is that he's a delusional coward, which could be interesting I guess, but even then he still feels like a generic DB villain.

And I get it, making interesting characters is hard, but a character is not going to stand out if they're just doing a retread of previous villains without something to keep 'em interesting.
Cipher wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:17 pm I think manga Black and Zamasu might have just as much if not more going on than manga Cell, a character who people remember being more interesting than he is because Norio Wakamoto voices him.
For me, Cell was only worth a damn when he was Imperfect, he's kinda boring in his other forms, specially during Cell games.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:39 pm

Wakamoto aside, the best part of Cell is how hot all three of his forms are. 👀👀👀
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:10 pm

Lukmendes wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:38 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:41 pm I think that last bit is really important though: the reason he's not memorable or endearing is because he feels like he's borrowed from any one of a hundred lazier, tropey-er manga. He doesn't feel at home next to iconic, one-of-a-kind characters like Piccolo or Freeza or Buu because he just another overly familiar homicidal maniac with delusions of grandeur.
He also doesn't do anything cool to stand out, King Piccolo was spitting his own minions and killed Shenlong, Vegeta was really stubborn and took forever to go down, Freeza has that politeness, an interesting game of cat and mouse, and is a fucking power house, Cell was at least smart when he was Imperfect, Fat Boo didn't understand the weight of his actions, Super Boo was the most pragmatic villain, Kid Boo was a destructive force (At least at first), the thing that stands out the most about manga Black is that he's a delusional coward, which could be interesting I guess, but even then he still feels like a generic DB villain.

And I get it, making interesting characters is hard, but a character is not going to stand out if they're just doing a retread of previous villains without something to keep 'em interesting.
Black’s whole anti-mortal shtick and petulance, combined with having to work up to his Super Saiyan Blue equivalent by abusing his partner Zamasu’s healing, is at least as memorable as what Cell does? And ultimately he’s responsible for the destruction of an entire timeline.

Even then, the arc’s villain is Zamasu writ large more so than just Black. I really think he’s up there with the original run villains regardless of version. Super as a whole is just less iconic by virtue of being the fluff sequel it is.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:10 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:39 pm Wakamoto aside, the best part of Cell is how hot all three of his forms are. 👀👀👀
First time I see someone saying the semi perfect form is attractive lol.
Cipher wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:10 pm Black’s whole anti-mortal shtick and petulance, combined with having to work up to his Super Saiyan Blue equivalent by abusing his partner Zamasu’s healing, is at least as memorable as what Cell does?
I don't see abusing zenkais as an interesting thing, it was really poorly written shit Toriyama came up with back in Namek, and Black having the version "Get hurt a little bit and power up tremendously" doesn't do him any favors.

I guess I can at least say him and Zamasu were being pragmatic to abuse it as much as they did, bad writing or not, in-universe it makes sense to abuse something like that.
And ultimately he’s responsible for the destruction of an entire timeline.
I guess there's that, and weirdly enough, nobody points out that super dragon balls could bring it back.
Even then, the arc’s villain is Zamasu writ large more so than just Black.
Yeah, and I've already pointed out that Future Zamasu was the more interesting one between both, Black's just there for me.
I really think he’s up there with the original run villains regardless of version. Super as a whole is just less iconic by virtue of being the fluff sequel it is.
I mean, I try to enjoy stuff regardless of when it was released, to try to judge everything fairly, which's why I for example, care very little about DB's first chapters, and find the 21st tournament to be whatever (And I find the Bacterian fight to be just bad), and some other stuff afterwards to be annoying (Muscle Tower, General Blue, Arale), I don't usually like the kind of stuff in those chapters and I'm not making an exception just because it's DB, and while I think Super has a lot of annoying issues (regardless of the version), if it has something interesting I'll praise it for that.

Also, since this is the manga thread, anyone else having doubts about Elec' wish being to make Gas become the strongest in the universe?

When that other Shenlong is summoned in chapter 78, the scene cuts to Goku and the rest, and then she skies clear, the other Heeters imply that the wish made was the same as Granolah's, but they weren't there when Elec made the wish, and now in chapter 82, Oracle Fish has no idea who Gas is.

The wish definitely did something to Gas, with him growing and becoming so powerful, but the wish itself not being shown, and Oracle Fish not knowing who Gas is, I find that really suspicious... Might be a situation like the Moro arc where his last wish wasn't revealed for a bit.

Admittedly, if the wish isn't "make Gas the strongest in the universe", I have no idea how it could make Gas that powerful, best guess I have is that the wish steals the power from somewhere else, and Granolah would be the best bet, but I doubt that's the case since he looks fine, and if it's stealing from somewhere, the effect must be fast since Goku and Vegeta point out Gas' power is very strong soon after the wish was made.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:19 am

Lukmendes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:10 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 10:39 pm Wakamoto aside, the best part of Cell is how hot all three of his forms are. 👀👀👀
First time I see someone saying the semi perfect form is attractive lol.
This is a no Second Form Cell Slander Zone!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 am

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:19 am This is a no Second Form Cell Slander Zone!
The subject of this conversation being that Semi-Perfect Cell looks sexy, made me think there would be something weird in that last, spoiled picture :lol:.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:33 am

Lukmendes wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 am
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:19 am This is a no Second Form Cell Slander Zone!
The subject of this conversation being that Semi-Perfect Cell looks sexy, made me think there would be something weird in that last, spoiled picture :lol:.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:55 am

Cipher wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 8:17 pm I think manga Black and Zamasu might have just as much if not more going on than manga Cell, a character who people remember being more interesting than he is because Norio Wakamoto voices him.
Perfect Cell is more interesting to me because he embodies the very concept of "perfection", from his genetic makeup down to his behavior. Even compared to the most arrogant villains in Dragon Ball (including Freeza, who operates on paranoia more than anything), Perfect Cell is so incapable of fathoming a loss that, when he finally is on the losing end, he tries to commit suicide in a desperate attempt to take Gohan out with him. If he can't be perfect, no one can.

You might counter that by arguing that Zamasu's breed of narcissism is similar to Cell's, but I think Cell wins out by virtue of being the first to do it in such an extreme way. I don't get much of a "hook" from Zamasu's character other than his folly as a pompous god who got in way over his head.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:37 am

I'm seeing a huge disconnect between this thread and the rest of the fandom I've seen.

Goku Black/Zamasu didn't do much to be remembered/stand out? I couldn't disagree more and I'd argue that most people now see him on the same level of Frieza as one of the most iconic and well-known DB villains:

- He killed Future Bulma (fan-favourite)
- Killed all the Gods (Beerus and Whis included, other fan-favourites, and sure he didn't kill them directly, but he still caused their deaths)
- Forced Goku and Vegeta to fuse
- Killed everyone in the Future timeline and pretty much ruined the life of Future Trunks (massive fan-favourite)

I find myself not agreeing at all with those who say that Zamasu couldn't stand out as a villain because he's now remembered as possibly the most threatening villain in the franchise, as the one who messed up and ruined the entire timeline of Future Trunks.

Beyond his actions in the Story, pretty much everyone knows him as the villain who said "Ningen" a lot anyway. So much so that if you browse random videos on the "Ningen" species (actual irl species completely unrelated to Dragon Ball), the comment section is pretty much filled with references to Zamasu.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:42 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:37 am […] So much so that if you browse random videos on the "Ningen" species (actual irl species completely unrelated to Dragon Ball), the comment section is pretty much filled with references to Zamasu.
If you believe in cryptology, that is.

The rest of you comment was solid, though. Zamasu, despite his questionable Super DB wish, accomplished everything he set himself for (except avoiding Zeno, of course).
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:34 am

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:42 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:37 am […] So much so that if you browse random videos on the "Ningen" species (actual irl species completely unrelated to Dragon Ball), the comment section is pretty much filled with references to Zamasu.
If you believe in cryptology, that is.

The rest of you comment was solid, though. Zamasu, despite his questionable Super DB wish, accomplished everything he set himself for (except avoiding Zeno, of course).
You say it's a questionable wish, and yet he succeeded where Frieza and Vegeta failed. The two most popular villains from DBZ both tried to use the Dragon Balls to gain immortality, and they both failed, while Zamasu succeeded. So I frankly don't know how he doesn't stand out. There's a meme about this by the way:


For the new generations that grow up with Super, Ultra Instinct will be more iconic than Super Saiyan and Zamasu will be more iconic than Frieza. We think Frieza is more iconic than Zamasu just because we grew up with DBZ; but when you actually think about the Story from an unbiased perspective, Zamasu is way more savage as a villain than Frieza.

Remember Frieza's most horrible crime? Committing genocide of a mortal species? Zamasu did that but for every mortal species, enough said.

Sadly I can't say the same thing about Moro, Gas, and Granolah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I can't see them becoming memorable villains after their arcs are animated, I can't really think of anything that makes Moro or Gas stand out. With Granolah, I can't even tell if he was ever really a villain, he's just a traumatized brat. If Toei can give more flashy/magical techniques to Moro then he'll be more unique I guess, playing more into his "evil wizard" character trait.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by capsulecorp » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:41 am

The thing about the "Zamasu was so successful" meme is that.... for me, a villains "accomplishments" don't translate to a compelling story. It's more fun to read about Buu, Freeza, even Ginyu, and each of their stories has more drama and more tension, more humor, more of that unique flavor that you can only find the Dragon World. For me, Zamasu feels so overly familiar and tropey that it's almost like I'm reading a different manga that I've already read before. He's a character cast from a mold that's been used many, many times before.

In other words, its less about his accomplishments standing out compared to those of other villains, and more about his STORY not standing out compared to other stories. This is the "fanfic problem" that plagues so many new authors - it's easy to make a character achieve impressive things in your story, but that's usually not enough to make the reader care.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:35 pm

Toyotaro drew Vegeta's Wagamama no Gokui for Volume 18:

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