"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri May 28, 2021 4:22 pm

ZodiacBeast wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 3:47 pm If Yamcha had taken it slow and had actually gotten stronger, it would have been cool. I like that kind of filler.

Maybe he could try again?
All things considered, the fact that Yamcha even survived 300x gravity always impressed me. Even more so after he was able to crawl to the console to turn it off. Basically, he struggled in 300 times the way Goku struggled with 100 times gravity. I don't know how people saw this as anything other than an impressive feat.

If he kept going, he might have even adapted to it like Goku did, but alas, it's not canon to the manga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Fri May 28, 2021 4:35 pm

Yamcha training in the gravity room and getting owned by it were stupid anime filler.

It just made him look stupid there was no reason to jump from 10x which he mastered all the way to 300x it just makes him look retarded and wanks the Saiyans off.
I forgot that it was filler, so it doesn't officially count.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Fri May 28, 2021 5:01 pm

Nistarkail wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:27 am
[/spoiler]
Most of the human fighters' woes comes down to neglect from the author. I've mentioned this recently in another thread, but they lack any sort of agency of their own especially once they aren't important to the plot. That's why their training in the background often yields little results (until they're plot relevant) or they give up training altogether.

In general, there are no hard limits for human fighter like Roshi, Yamcha, Krillin, or Tien. That has been debated time and time again, but Super put the final nail in that coffin. Their rate of strength is likely the slowest of all the races, but as you said, they've developed some of the most diverse and useful array of techniques and spiritual abilities, likely due to their close proximity to divine characters such as Karin and Kami. But even the divine find their techniques useful (Kami used Mutaito's Mafuba after all)

Like the other races, they can experience radical breakthroughs of their current limitations and gain an immense amount of strength in a short period. They've even been able to outpace many other races including the Saiyans at various points.

Ultimately, if all races had their potentials unlocked and had the same training, I think the humans would remain the weakest. But luckily they have a whole host of advantages that could lead them to becoming the strongest in the universe if they really used them all (technology, spirituality, ki manipulation) ... technically, a human is the one who lasted until the end and won the Tournament of Power, which was a tournament that included the strongest races of several universes.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat May 29, 2021 4:11 am

BWri wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 5:01 pm
Nistarkail wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:27 am
[/spoiler]
Most of the human fighters' woes comes down to neglect from the author. I've mentioned this recently in another thread, but they lack any sort of agency of their own especially once they aren't important to the plot. That's why their training in the background often yields little results (until they're plot relevant) or they give up training altogether.

In general, there are no hard limits for human fighter like Roshi, Yamcha, Krillin, or Tien. That has been debated time and time again, but Super put the final nail in that coffin. Their rate of strength is likely the slowest of all the races, but as you said, they've developed some of the most diverse and useful array of techniques and spiritual abilities, likely due to their close proximity to divine characters such as Karin and Kami. But even the divine find their techniques useful (Kami used Mutaito's Mafuba after all)

Like the other races, they can experience radical breakthroughs of their current limitations and gain an immense amount of strength in a short period. They've even been able to outpace many other races including the Saiyans at various points.

Ultimately, if all races had their potentials unlocked and had the same training, I think the humans would remain the weakest. But luckily they have a whole host of advantages that could lead them to becoming the strongest in the universe if they really used them all (technology, spirituality, ki manipulation) ... technically, a human is the one who lasted until the end and won the Tournament of Power, which was a tournament that included the strongest races of several universes.
17 is also an cyborg who has been enhanced to have limitless endurance. That and while he won, he did so on the backs on people stronger than him. Like Toppo would have rung out 17 in the anime if Frieza didn't save him. And 18 had to eliminate herself to save 17 from a ring out. In the manga, 17 played dead until all the stronger people wiped themselves out.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat May 29, 2021 4:22 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:26 pm In DBS, Geets usually fights first. He did so during the U6 tournament, against Black, Broly and Moro on Namek.
It's a suprising change of pace to let Goku go first, specially if he has something to prove to himself and to Goku... unless he had something else on his mind.

His excuse to do so seemed like a really nice joke to me though, "hey, he insulted you first, so you better act on it, byeee"
Goku fought first during the U6 tournament, which is how he lost to Frost. Vegeta just fought Hit first. Also, in the anime, Goku fought Black first.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Sat May 29, 2021 6:43 am

In general, there are no hard limits for human fighter like Roshi, Yamcha, Krillin, or Tien. That has been debated time and time again, but Super put the final nail in that coffin. Their rate of strength is likely the slowest of all the races, but as you said, they've developed some of the most diverse and useful array of techniques and spiritual abilities, likely due to their close proximity to divine characters such as Karin and Kami. But even the divine find their techniques useful (Kami used Mutaito's Mafuba after all)

Like the other races, they can experience radical breakthroughs of their current limitations and gain an immense amount of strength in a short period. They've even been able to outpace many other races including the Saiyans at various points.
The things that puts immense barriers between everything and Saiyans is the S-Cells. It's the official choice of the author and nothing to read in another ways, but personally I don't like it.

The excessive gap was confirmed when during Cyborg Saga, base Vegeta blasted Gero's lab with one simple attack. There was confirmed that human instead were not able to do it, meaning that Toriyama in that moment was going straightforward and concentrate his attention to main characters.

Also when C-17 and C-18 potential was confirmed I felt really annoyed (especially about the first that apparently has not any weakness or problem with stamina), because characters like this technically cannot have limitations.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat May 29, 2021 9:09 am

HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:22 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:26 pm In DBS, Geets usually fights first. He did so during the U6 tournament, against Black, Broly and Moro on Namek.
It's a suprising change of pace to let Goku go first, specially if he has something to prove to himself and to Goku... unless he had something else on his mind.

His excuse to do so seemed like a really nice joke to me though, "hey, he insulted you first, so you better act on it, byeee"
Goku fought first during the U6 tournament, which is how he lost to Frost. Vegeta just fought Hit first. Also, in the anime, Goku fought Black first.
Oh you're right, I forgot it was because of the poison thing that Vegeta fought Hit first.
The anime doesn't matter here

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by BWri » Sat May 29, 2021 11:00 am

HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:11 am 17 is also an cyborg who has been enhanced to have limitless endurance.
Exactly! That's the technological advantage mankind has or at least could have if someone had taken up Gero's research. If they ever utilized all their advantages, humans could be quite scary if they wanted.
That and while he won, he did so on the backs on people stronger than him. Like Toppo would have rung out 17 in the anime if Frieza didn't save him. And 18 had to eliminate herself to save 17 from a ring out. In the manga, 17 played dead until all the stronger people wiped themselves out.
All true, but when you think about it, even the titans of the tournament were saved by others on occasion including Goku, Hit, and Jiren if we include the manga where he fled from Damom with Dyspo and let #17 take care of things. In the anime, Jiren didn't even fight for half the tournament, so him and manga #17 have something in common.

But all in all, it still doesn't take away from the fact that a human was the last man standing in a multiversal tournament. That's quite a feat.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TobyS » Sat May 29, 2021 2:39 pm

Nistarkail wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 6:43 am
In general, there are no hard limits for human fighter like Roshi, Yamcha, Krillin, or Tien. That has been debated time and time again, but Super put the final nail in that coffin. Their rate of strength is likely the slowest of all the races, but as you said, they've developed some of the most diverse and useful array of techniques and spiritual abilities, likely due to their close proximity to divine characters such as Karin and Kami. But even the divine find their techniques useful (Kami used Mutaito's Mafuba after all)

Like the other races, they can experience radical breakthroughs of their current limitations and gain an immense amount of strength in a short period. They've even been able to outpace many other races including the Saiyans at various points.
The things that puts immense barriers between everything and Saiyans is the S-Cells. It's the official choice of the author and nothing to read in another ways, but personally I don't like it.

The excessive gap was confirmed when during Cyborg Saga, base Vegeta blasted Gero's lab with one simple attack. There was confirmed that human instead were not able to do it, meaning that Toriyama in that moment was going straightforward and concentrate his attention to main characters.

Also when C-17 and C-18 potential was confirmed I felt really annoyed (especially about the first that apparently has not any weakness or problem with stamina), because characters like this technically cannot have limitations.
Eh it's never stated the humans couldn't destroy his lab, by scaling they obviously fucking can, they are well above earth destroying power Saiyan saga vegeta.

They don't want to prematurely wake androids or possibly have gero absorb the attack. Or want to kinda suprise him there's a bunch of explanations.

Unlike the anime scenes don't last hours in the manga.
Ten shoulder barges it and it doesn't budge.
Piccolo immediately goes to blow it but then Vegetas a messy bitch and jumps in.
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat May 29, 2021 4:55 pm

Kinokima wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:45 pm
Miracles wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 2:41 am Vegeta trying to figure out who Granolah is was not the intent of refusing to collaborate. It was because he was in "no mood" to do so and he came to show his "superiority" over Goku

Yes I know what Vegeta initially said. But his actions say there was more to it.

Considering directly after that line he tells Goku you can fight Granolah first to get one back at him and then immediately observes the situation because he realizes that something is up with Granolah and he doesn’t seem like a typical villain. It’s a bit weird for Vegeta to say I am here to prove I am superior but then immediately say but Goku you can fight first.lol
Well it's speculation. We'll have to see if this is really the case or not.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat May 29, 2021 9:54 pm

BWri wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:00 am
HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:11 am 17 is also an cyborg who has been enhanced to have limitless endurance.
Exactly! That's the technological advantage mankind has or at least could have if someone had taken up Gero's research. If they ever utilized all their advantages, humans could be quite scary if they wanted.
That and while he won, he did so on the backs on people stronger than him. Like Toppo would have rung out 17 in the anime if Frieza didn't save him. And 18 had to eliminate herself to save 17 from a ring out. In the manga, 17 played dead until all the stronger people wiped themselves out.
All true, but when you think about it, even the titans of the tournament were saved by others on occasion including Goku, Hit, and Jiren if we include the manga where he fled from Damom with Dyspo and let #17 take care of things. In the anime, Jiren didn't even fight for half the tournament, so him and manga #17 have something in common.

But all in all, it still doesn't take away from the fact that a human was the last man standing in a multiversal tournament. That's quite a feat.
From what I remembered from guides, the infinity energy Androids was an accident on Gero’s part. That and they were uncontrollable. Remember, Future 17 and 18 were mass-murderers.

I think Jiren on fled because Toppo made him.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Sat May 29, 2021 9:58 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:09 am
HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:22 am
Koitsukai wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:26 pm In DBS, Geets usually fights first. He did so during the U6 tournament, against Black, Broly and Moro on Namek.
It's a suprising change of pace to let Goku go first, specially if he has something to prove to himself and to Goku... unless he had something else on his mind.

His excuse to do so seemed like a really nice joke to me though, "hey, he insulted you first, so you better act on it, byeee"
Goku fought first during the U6 tournament, which is how he lost to Frost. Vegeta just fought Hit first. Also, in the anime, Goku fought Black first.
Oh you're right, I forgot it was because of the poison thing that Vegeta fought Hit first.
The anime doesn't matter here
But if the anime doesn’t matter, the Broly movie shouldn’t either since Toyo skipped it like Resurrection ‘F’.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Sun May 30, 2021 8:25 am

HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:54 pmI think Jiren on fled because Toppo made him.
Toppo makes the suggestion, but manga Jiren gives us his reason for agreeing later. Despite his strength, he never takes unnecessary risks, and always fights as if something could go wrong. Since he doesn’t know what’s up with the invisible fighters, the approach in line with that philosophy is to retreat and observe. We get it in his retort to Vegeta claiming he doesn’t know what it’s like to fight with his life on the line.

(Unfortunately those “unnecessary risks” also include his own teammates in his mind.)

When he must fight, he has every confidence he’ll win, but he isn’t out to show off.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun May 30, 2021 11:30 am

So I skipped this chapter cause it didn't spark my interest enough, but I heard rumors that Vegeta fed Goku with a senzu using his mouth (much like Trunks and Mai back then) and of course I believe it's fake as I don't think Toyotaro would be that asinine to do something like that.

Saw that we had another round of "our Saiyan pride is not in line with teamwork" and I can not feel nothing besides: "eh"... Cause what was the point of RoF anyway? But yea Vegeta letting Goku fight first could be interesting if it was a analogy to Goku learning how Hit time-skip worked by seeing him fight Vegeta before.

Smilodon wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 7:28 pm They made 12 universes and possibly 18 after Tournament of Power. U6 is still unexplored, U10 had Zamasu....And the rest....Only the tournament.

They could bring a villain from another universe with unique techniques. But they bring another weak guy from U7 and made this guy the strongest with those Dragon Balls. It's very stupid, come on! If things like that was possible, so how in hell a guy like Piccolo and others doesn't have any power boost?

I was really waiting for a guy above god level by nature or hard training. In 12 or 18 universes this could be very possible (and they said it in TOP). I still wait for a threat in god's level...And without that Zen'oh button or else.
I'm glad more people are addressing this bullsh*t, Universe 7 is simply not interesting anymore after we know there are only 28 planets with life, new Broly came out of nowhere so as this Granolah guy. They could have had much better ideas bringing someone new from other universes, but they still want to stick the good ol' main universe with shows clearly they are in creative bankruptcy.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun May 30, 2021 1:22 pm

HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:58 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:09 am
HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:22 am Goku fought first during the U6 tournament, which is how he lost to Frost. Vegeta just fought Hit first. Also, in the anime, Goku fought Black first.
Oh you're right, I forgot it was because of the poison thing that Vegeta fought Hit first.
The anime doesn't matter here
But if the anime doesn’t matter, the Broly movie shouldn’t either since Toyo skipped it like Resurrection ‘F’.
There is a clear difference between what is assumed (the manga says the events of Broly occurred; and Revival of F, for that matter) and what is depicted differently (the events of the anime diverging from the manga in the manner you describe). It's not about 'skipping', it's about irreconcilability of depictions.

Koitsukai is saying that the depiction of the events in the anime that you describe cannot be reconciled with the manga depiction (either Goku fought Black first or Vegeta did; it can't be had both ways) - and since this is, after all, the manga discussion thread (and Vegeta fought Black first in the manga, as Koitsukai says), that anime-only material is not pertinent here when discussing how Goku and Vegeta act.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Sun May 30, 2021 1:42 pm

No Vegeta did not feed Goku with a Senzu in his mouth that was just a joke on Twitter. Though I am kind of amused that anyone could even think of the possibility of it being true. lol

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by FlpShimizu » Sun May 30, 2021 1:52 pm

It's what happens when you talk about something you haven't read.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Sun May 30, 2021 2:47 pm

HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:58 pm But if the anime doesn’t matter, the Broly movie shouldn’t either since Toyo skipped it like Resurrection ‘F’.
Such a ridiculous idea that I don't even know where to start with it. Let's just do it in a numbered list form.

1. We know Toriyama has very limited influence on the anime. So little, in fact, that they confirmed he just gave them character designs, and they had to create characterizations themselves for Jiren, Toppo and Dyspo

2. We know for a fact that Toriyama has much greater influence over the manga and what happens in it. So much so that I can't even decide which of the numerous interviews talking about that I should link to.

3. The movie was written by Toriyama and ignored all the anime-only shit that would logically be included. Instead, it featured things that had only showed up in the manga, like Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

4. The manga explicitly tells you to watch the movie, because the movie is in-line with it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon May 31, 2021 12:16 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 1:22 pm
HeroR wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:58 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 9:09 am
Oh you're right, I forgot it was because of the poison thing that Vegeta fought Hit first.
The anime doesn't matter here
But if the anime doesn’t matter, the Broly movie shouldn’t either since Toyo skipped it like Resurrection ‘F’.
There is a clear difference between what is assumed (the manga says the events of Broly occurred; and Revival of F, for that matter) and what is depicted differently (the events of the anime diverging from the manga in the manner you describe). It's not about 'skipping', it's about irreconcilability of depictions.

Koitsukai is saying that the depiction of the events in the anime that you describe cannot be reconciled with the manga depiction (either Goku fought Black first or Vegeta did; it can't be had both ways) - and since this is, after all, the manga discussion thread (and Vegeta fought Black first in the manga, as Koitsukai says), that anime-only material is not pertinent here when discussing how Goku and Vegeta act.
The events occurring doesn’t mean Vegeta fought Broly first is my point. What we have are broad strokes because there is no manga version of the Broly movie.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon May 31, 2021 5:34 am

HeroR wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 12:16 amThe events occurring doesn’t mean Vegeta fought Broly first is my point. What we have are broad strokes because there is no manga version of the Broly movie.
The point is that until we get any such version that may alter the depiction, the account of events as shown in the movie may be assumed. It is not at all the same as accounting for a flatly contradictory depiction of the events of Future Trunks arc in this discussion - which we do not need to do. This distinction seems quite clear.

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