"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by caire » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:45 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:38 pm I predict it's going to be something like angels hone their ultra instinct in situations other than combat, making it more well rounded and natural
Reminds me of that chapter interstitial in one of the manga volumes, where Vegeta is folding clothes for Bulma and he swears that his body is doing it by itself :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:47 pm

Alruneia wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:59 am
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:48 am Draft page released. There's nothing relevant yet.

Whis: Do you know the biggest difference between us Angels and you, Goku?
Ah, you beat me to it. :P
My quick translation was "What do you think the main difference is" rather than "Do you know what the main difference is". I think there's a nuance there. We'll have to wait and see what Whis says next, though, I guess.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:44 pm I have a strong feeling it’s going to be something like: “We Angels are always in Ultra Instinct, as it’s our natural state. If you want to get on our level of control over the technique, you’ll have to train yourself to be constantly in this state too, and get used to it.”

That’s my prediction at least xD
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:38 pm I predict it's going to be something like angels hone their ultra instinct in situations other than combat, making it more well rounded and natural
Honestly, this idea sounds pretty possible to me. Goku only goes into Ultra Instinct for training/battle, while the angels seem to always be in Ultra Instinct no matter what the situation is. That is a significant difference between them. And if Whis tells Goku to practice being in Ultra Instinct outside of battle, it'd be just like during the days before the Cell Games when Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans constantly, so the idea wouldn't be unheard of.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Brettjr25 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:45 pm

Alruneia wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:47 pm
Alruneia wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:59 am
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:48 am Draft page released. There's nothing relevant yet.

Whis: Do you know the biggest difference between us Angels and you, Goku?
Ah, you beat me to it. :P
My quick translation was "What do you think the main difference is" rather than "Do you know what the main difference is". I think there's a nuance there. We'll have to wait and see what Whis says next, though, I guess.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:44 pm I have a strong feeling it’s going to be something like: “We Angels are always in Ultra Instinct, as it’s our natural state. If you want to get on our level of control over the technique, you’ll have to train yourself to be constantly in this state too, and get used to it.”

That’s my prediction at least xD
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:38 pm I predict it's going to be something like angels hone their ultra instinct in situations other than combat, making it more well rounded and natural
Honestly, this idea sounds pretty possible to me. Goku only goes into Ultra Instinct for training/battle, while the angels seem to always be in Ultra Instinct no matter what the situation is. That is a significant difference between them. And if Whis tells Goku to practice being in Ultra Instinct outside of battle, it'd be just like during the days before the Cell Games when Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans constantly, so the idea wouldn't be unheard of.
Good lord... if this is true are we going to have to see Goku Ultra instinct eating food.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:17 pm

Brettjr25 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:45 pm
Alruneia wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:47 pm
Alruneia wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:59 am
Ah, you beat me to it. :P
My quick translation was "What do you think the main difference is" rather than "Do you know what the main difference is". I think there's a nuance there. We'll have to wait and see what Whis says next, though, I guess.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:44 pm I have a strong feeling it’s going to be something like: “We Angels are always in Ultra Instinct, as it’s our natural state. If you want to get on our level of control over the technique, you’ll have to train yourself to be constantly in this state too, and get used to it.”

That’s my prediction at least xD
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:38 pm I predict it's going to be something like angels hone their ultra instinct in situations other than combat, making it more well rounded and natural
Honestly, this idea sounds pretty possible to me. Goku only goes into Ultra Instinct for training/battle, while the angels seem to always be in Ultra Instinct no matter what the situation is. That is a significant difference between them. And if Whis tells Goku to practice being in Ultra Instinct outside of battle, it'd be just like during the days before the Cell Games when Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans constantly, so the idea wouldn't be unheard of.
Good lord... if this is true are we going to have to see Goku Ultra instinct eating food.
Drafts are out...Get Ready to see Goku walking around rocking the silver.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:20 pm

I was RIGHT!!!!!


https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 6538536960

Can I get a round of applause now???! 👏😂
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:21 pm

Well, well, well, look what we have here. Not that we needed an official word on this to know this obvious thing, but yeah, Goku has to transform in order to use Ultra Instinct, unlike what some people used to say...

As I always say, if it changes appearance, even in the slightest (like Ultimate or the Namekuseijin's red-eyed form), it is a transformation.

Anyway, good that this was finally addressed.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:26 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:20 pm I was RIGHT!!!!!


https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 6538536960

Can I get a round of applause now???! 👏😂
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm

What would be THE POINT of saving the transformed version of UI (A.K.A Silver Haired Base Form) As a “Trump Card” if he can fully perfect the move in his regular Base form that he was born in???!

Makes no sense! And there’s literally no need for it!

I don’t like this one bit! I thought Goku was going to master UI where he was going to get used to the transformation by remaining transformed all day long (just like Super Saiyan during the Cell Games) and end up getting the white haired form with Purple eyes like the Angels! I actually like the new look, and I know fans hate the concept of “transformations”.. But I think they’re actually neccesary, since Goku walking around in his Base form all day long for the rest of his life is just PLAIN BORING!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm What would be THE POINT of saving the transformed version of UI (A.K.A Silver Haired Base Form) As a “Trump Card” if he can fully perfect the move in his regular Base form that he was born in???!
Probably because of the power boost. Goku can save stamina if he masters the Ultra Instinct without the need to transform, so he could use the Silver haired form only when necessary to make use of the strength provided by the transformation (without the need to necessarily transform right off the bat). I assume this would apply to any other form as well

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:55 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm What would be THE POINT of saving the transformed version of UI (A.K.A Silver Haired Base Form) As a “Trump Card” if he can fully perfect the move in his regular Base form that he was born in???!

Makes no sense! And there’s literally no need for it!

I don’t like this one bit! I thought Goku was going to master UI where he was going to get used to the transformation by remaining transformed all day long (just like Super Saiyan during the Cell Games) and end up getting the white haired form with Purple eyes like the Angels! I actually like the new look, and I know fans hate the concept of “transformations”.. But I think they’re actually neccesary, since Goku walking around in his Base form all day long for the rest of his life is just PLAIN BORING!
Could be worse, could be SSJ on top of base UI

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:58 pm

Ultra Instinct is just a mind-set. That Silver form is probably going to get a name change soon, especially if Gokuu learns to use Ultra Instinct in base.

I guess Toriyama is going to tie this into the Uub fight?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Devilman21/ » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:01 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm What would be THE POINT of saving the transformed version of UI (A.K.A Silver Haired Base Form) As a “Trump Card” if he can fully perfect the move in his regular Base form that he was born in???!

Makes no sense! And there’s literally no need for it!

I don’t like this one bit! I thought Goku was going to master UI where he was going to get used to the transformation by remaining transformed all day long (just like Super Saiyan during the Cell Games) and end up getting the white haired form with Purple eyes like the Angels! I actually like the new look, and I know fans hate the concept of “transformations”.. But I think they’re actually neccesary, since Goku walking around in his Base form all day long for the rest of his life is just PLAIN BORING!
Super get's a lot of criticism for rehashing old ideas, so I'm personally glad they aren't just redoing what was already done back during the Cell Games. It's also important to mention that they can't have Goku remain in the white haired form all the time as that would go against what we see in the EOZ. But hey if you like the concept of transformations because you think Goku being in his base form all the time is boring you should be happy about this as it means we will still get to see Goku transform even after he masters UI. Its also possible that his long term goal to ditch the transformation process altogether and just remain in the UI state permanently la Whis and that this just at stepping stone towards that but we shall see.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:19 pm

Devilman21/ wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:01 pm It's also important to mention that they can't have Goku remain in the white haired form all the time as that would go against what we see in the EOZ.
Well, it's good to point out that Goku didn't remain transformed into SSJ for the rest of his life either, this was just a temporary method for him and Gohan to get used to the form (which consequently would also bring other benefits to them). Even if the same thing was done with the UI, he probably wouldn't stay with the form all the time (since it would still spend some stamina).

The thing now is just that he could make use of the Ultra Instinct's ability (moving without thinking) without having to use specifically the Silver haired form. So Goku would still need to turn into SSJ and Blue to benefit from the power ups, but he would have a bonus. And the Silver haired form would be used only as a trump card

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:32 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:54 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:37 pm What would be THE POINT of saving the transformed version of UI (A.K.A Silver Haired Base Form) As a “Trump Card” if he can fully perfect the move in his regular Base form that he was born in???!
Probably because of the power boost. Goku can save stamina if he masters the Ultra Instinct without the need to transform, so he could use the Silver haired form only when necessary to make use of the strength provided by the transformation (without the need to necessarily transform right off the bat). I assume this would apply to any other form as well
I swear, they just keep changing the rules all the time. I thought its “power” came from the fact that Goku’s body moved on its own (hence more speed = more powerful attacks). I.e. the “ability”. Not that it came from the form/visual change itself..

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZodiacBeast » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:54 pm

This reminds me of the Kaio-ken "technique vs. transformation" argument that I see pop up every now and then (...for whatever reason).

But yeah...first Goku gets "Omen" and the completed silver hair form during the TOP...but now he could possibly use Ultra Instinct in any form? Huh?

I do think that "emptying your mind" shouldn't rely on a transformation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:03 am

I called It!
This also implies UI is not mastered either only "complete"


I really think they are going for a Ul in base form.

The Angels use UI in base passively with no ki leakage. Gokus UI(in anime) has always had a aura, which by definition leaks ki.
I believe Gokus UI is similar to grade 1 SSJ
Perhaps we will see a grade 4 SSJ but for UI?

The overarching theme of transformations has been you unlock, tap into it at will, increase the power and ki control of said form, and finally reduce the strain and have mastery of the ki control (Grade 4 SSJ and Blue Perfected)
To improve Ultra Instinct, may follow this.

Having an aura by definition is a lack of ki control. Yes even Gods and Angels(Merus) have had a aura briefly but it was to go from base to a elevated state, so the ki flares up. But If you see a aura, that is radiation that implies the energy is being lost to light and heat.
So I'm summary, I think UI will change cosmetically this arc, we may see new kinds of attacks, associated with UI and finally by the end of Z, Goku may have achieved MUI Where it's in his base.

According to the translations they are going the grade 4 super saiyan route.

I.e Goku can use UI in base passively with no stamina problems, but like grade 4 super saiyan, if the person he is facing is stronger, then he "powers up" to the silver hair form.

It's the same principle of grade 4 super saiyan.
 
Toyatoro is just following already established logic from past Transformations.
It's basic physics.
Super saiyan is grade 1. They master how to tap into it at will(i.e anger and the back feeling) they still lose energy as heat and light due to the inefficiency of the form and their body.
They then get stronger through zenkai and training.
They get grade 2 and 3 which increases their ki but reduces their speed, it doesn't solve the stamina problems.
Goku figures out that if they get rid of the emotional strain of super saiyan (i.e the anger which is essentially the "energy tax")
Then they can better regulate their power and ki.
Grade 4 Super Saiyan.

Same principle for Blue.

They get the form it has a aura, it leaks god ki and it requires a strong body.
They get stronger through zenkai and training
They figure out Blue perfected.
Which is also similar to grade 4 super saiyan.

UI is not removed from this logic

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:04 am

I mean, “transformations” are simply a visual signifier to let us know that there’s been a change in power/ability/state of mind.. It’s more visually appealing to the viewer and it gets the point across to the audience much better!

There shouldn’t be anything “bad” or “undesirable” about it.. I don’t like this mindset one bit.

Ultra Instinct was already perfect the way it was before!

All Goku needed to do was to keep that state of mind all day long to keep the form up all day long, (and in my headcanon that would eventually give him white hair and purple eyes, voila!)

Toei would also be very happy with the merchandising opportunities that arise this way!

The writers are going to REGRET this move.. I’m telling ya’ll!

I can see a RETCON coming in the future!
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:20 am

How can the silver haired transformation POSSIBLY be used as a “power up” if Goku has the full ability in Base???!

I mean, the silver haired form RESULTS from the UI ability/state of mind.. (Hence cannot possibly be separate from it!) That’s totally illogical and goes against what the story has portrayed thus far.

You get silver hair, eyes, and aura (Anime only) when you think of absolutely nothing and gain self control in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions.

So how is it logically possible to use the silver haired “form” as something else - a mere powerup.. Either it will vanish and lose all meaning once Goku figures out how to get the full ability in Base, or it should stay as the top dog form as it’s the only one that gives Goku full access to UI..

No other options should be available.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:47 am

Am I the only one who is utterly not surprised at all?

As if Toyotaro is writing some groundbreaking stuff....

More predictable and you die. This stuff was already explained before, no idea why we gotta get back to it again.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:05 am

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:47 am Am I the only one who is utterly not surprised at all?

As if Toyotaro is writing some groundbreaking stuff....

More predictable and you die. This stuff was already explained before, no idea why we gotta get back to it again.
I concur, this isn't groundbreaking news at all. We already knew Angels use Ultra Instinct all the time. The writing was already on the wall that this was the path Goku would go down -- not relying on transformations, just using his god-given natural strength with the angelic mindset. As much as I love silver-haired "Perfected" Ultra Instinct, I always classed it as a transformation (as in, it physically transforms Goku's appearance) that acted as a conduit for the empty-mindedness principle.

Here I shall plug an upcoming thread of mine discussing the possibility that Goku will abandon the Super Saiyan transformations altogether, perhaps explaining why he didn't use it against Uub (besides the fact that he didn't need to use any higher transformation).

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