"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kinokima]

Is this new form like Toppo's form from the tourney? Or is it new altogether?

It’s definitely something new. The Toppo form is an anime form and has nothing to do with the manga

[BWri]

I think this chapter really does imply Granolah has Hakai. The telekinesis explosion attack, which Granolah did, was the same thing as from chapter 70 and 72 imo was Hakai. It's the same application as Vegeta using rocks as proximity explosions. Granolah then comments on its destructive power and says his is even greater. Then also does it again latter in the chapter.

Still not 100% confirmed tho

Yeah, I get the feeling he not only has it, but also has knowledge about it. What he got from the wish is so weird. If he has knowledge of the technique, why doesn't he have general fighting knowledge?

Before this chapter, I was thinking Granolah basically had future fighting knowledge, or rather knowledge from a potential 100+ years of training boiled into his present day brain. But its definitely not that, at least according to Vegeta. Maybe he still has that, but Toyotaro separates knowledge from experience. But if that's the case, shouldn't his moves also be imperfect when he does them for the first time? IDK, surely I'm overthinking this.

Is this new form like Toppo's form from the tourney? Or is it new altogether?

It’s definitely something new. The Toppo form is an anime form and has nothing to do with the manga

It has a good likelyhood of being added to the manga according to previous trends.

[LoganForkHands73]

When it comes down to it, Dragon Ball is a comic about fighting. The fighting is the story, so I've come to terms that sometimes we'll get whole chapters dedicated to battles. And I'm more than happy with that, especially since Toyotaro's visual storytelling and choreography seem to get better and better. It's less enjoyable when you've got nothing but a one-sided slaughter, which many Moro arc chapters degenerated into, but thankfully that's not what this is. I love the bit where Vegeta makes Granola accidentally destroy the remains of the Cerealian city. A really clever use of the environment that shows Vegeta's perceptive genius at work (for once), Granola's stubborn clinging to the past being challenged, and proves Granola's lack of experience with his newfound power which gives Vegeta the confidence he can win.

It perplexes me when I hear people claim they love Dragon Ball, but hate the fighting. If you prefer the characters and the comedy, that's fine of course, but to hate a central aspect of it like that is odd.

[ssj3kakarot]

I agree with someone earlier as far as this chapter in a vacum is great. In context with the previous chapters, i think its does more damage, mainly because inconsistency issues.

Chapter 73: Real Granolah 1 shots MUI Goku out of his form, then punches him, leading Goku to be knocked out. MUI was shown to increase the physical durability of Gokus body to some stupid levels shown in the moro arc. (Moro punched a hole in his chest in ssb vs Goku just flexing it off in MUI)

Where as Vegeta gets 1 shot, but has the muster to then transform. Additionally Vegeta was able to dodge/evade/block the attacks better from a stronger version of Granolah, unless Granny was holding back for some reason. My big gripe with this is that Goku was in a form that should at least be able to take the hits, where as Vegeta was simply in blue and takes it and still able to transform. Clearly, it makes a more dramatic transformation, but IMO, at the expense at making MUI and Goku look kinda like a joke.

I'm all for Vegeta having his time to shine, get a win, save the day, but they keep making Goku let his guard down, just so he can be out of commision...its lazy. Don't hype a form that is the "can't let your guard down form" to just have it ALWAYS let his guard down. Id rather have his form run out of stamina (which shouldn't be a thing at this point in the game) vs him letting his guard down. Don't raise 1 character up, by making another character look weaker.

It was awesome to see Vegeta blood lusted at the end, definite Saiyan saga vibes.Aim assist was pretty cool. Do we know who Oatmeel is yet?

[DiscountDabi]

Oh btw.

Vegeta is stronger than Goku right now. Point blank. He performed in Blue better than Goku did and was able to take blows likley stronger than the one Ultra Instinct Goku took. Granolah is very frustrated and I seriously doubt he's holding back more than he did against Goku, especially with that final blow.

At the very least if Blue Vegeta is around the same Level as MUI, then this new form Far surpasses it.

Do we know who Oatmeel is yet?

I think at this point I am 99% sure Oatmeel is an AI. The AIM Assist he does here damn near confirms it.

One Contention I had with the Spoilers is that this form doesn't have the fan fare. The oohs and ahhs a normal transfomation got.

Boy was I wrong. This whole Fight was the fan fare, Vegeta being a cocky bastard because he knew what he was doing, and then him screaming into the form. Granolah trying to shoot him but his Ki blasts are destroyed. This might be my favorite powerup sequence in the Manga, with Goku's Transformation in the Moro arc being a close second. I really enjoyed this.

[Gt91]

It's insane to imagine what kind of villain will require Goku/Vegeta/Granolah team up against him.
inb4 that villain will be Frieza

He will show up, that's for sure.
If you think about it, we haven't seen a lot of teased stuff yet: frieza, maybe Broly, heeters (powers, trasformations and more), flashback about bardock, 73s, the questions from Zuno ecc!

There's a lot of things we want to see! (for me, a new trasformation for frieza)

[Trouser]

Really nice chapter I must say. Fun fight, fun trash talk from both fighters. But... I didn't like the fact that Vegeta was fighting better against "whole" Granolah and Goku got his ass beaten by a mere weaken clone. It's just stupid. It's DBS anime level of stupid.
Unfortunatelly, to me the new Vegeta form still looks like shit. It's unsalvable for me.

[TheSaiyanGod]

When it comes down to it, Dragon Ball is a comic about fighting. The fighting is the story, so I've come to terms that sometimes we'll get whole chapters dedicated to battles. And I'm more than happy with that, especially since Toyotaro's visual storytelling and choreography seem to get better and better. It's less enjoyable when you've got nothing but a one-sided slaughter, which many Moro arc chapters degenerated into, but thankfully that's not what this is. I love the bit where Vegeta makes Granola accidentally destroy the remains of the Cerealian city. A really clever use of the environment that shows Vegeta's perceptive genius at work (for once), Granola's stubborn clinging to the past being challenged, and proves Granola's lack of experience with his newfound power which gives Vegeta the confidence he can win.

It perplexes me when I hear people claim they love Dragon Ball, but hate the fighting. If you prefer the characters and the comedy, that's fine of course, but to hate a central aspect of it like that is odd.

On this subject, it's also good to remember that the first 6 chapters of Granolah arc barely have any fights. At this point in the Moro arc we were already in the fight between Boo and Moro.

So the current arc has already spent a considerable amount of time building up the confrontation between Granolah and Goku/Vegeta (which I love, but I remember reading some complaints at the time about the lack of action), so we just started getting chapters focused on battles in recent months. Part of the reason their encounter was expected is precisely because of the build up that took place at the beginning. So yeah, while I understand the complaints about it, at the same time it doesn't bother me that much and the fights have been good. We are probably already approaching the moment when the Heeters will appear and move the plot

[Kinokima]

When it comes down to it, Dragon Ball is a comic about fighting. The fighting is the story, so I've come to terms that sometimes we'll get whole chapters dedicated to battles. And I'm more than happy with that, especially since Toyotaro's visual storytelling and choreography seem to get better and better. It's less enjoyable when you've got nothing but a one-sided slaughter, which many Moro arc chapters degenerated into, but thankfully that's not what this is. I love the bit where Vegeta makes Granola accidentally destroy the remains of the Cerealian city. A really clever use of the environment that shows Vegeta's perceptive genius at work (for once), Granola's stubborn clinging to the past being challenged, and proves Granola's lack of experience with his newfound power which gives Vegeta the confidence he can win.

It perplexes me when I hear people claim they love Dragon Ball, but hate the fighting. If you prefer the characters and the comedy, that's fine of course, but to hate a central aspect of it like that is odd.

Honestly when it’s just fighting and doesn’t move the plot forward in anyway I kind of get bored of it, especially in manga without animation. But to me not only was this an excellent fight with fantastic choreography it also had wonderful character beats for both Vegeta and Granolah.

And I love Vegeta so honestly I am never bored when he is on the page but I feel this fight highlighted so much better how he has changed than the fight against Moro when we had Piccolo unnecessarily in the background telling us how he is different.

[Thani]

Really nice chapter I must say. Fun fight, fun trash talk from both fighters. But... I didn't like the fact that Vegeta was fighting better against "whole" Granolah and Goku got his ass beaten by a mere weaken clone. It's just stupid. It's DBS anime level of stupid.
Unfortunatelly, to me the new Vegeta form still looks like shit. It's unsalvable for me.

It's more or less an inversion of how it went in the Broly movie, with Goku performing better against a powered up Ikari Broly in Base and Super Saiyan compared to SSG Vegeta. It probably doesn't mean anything beyond "look, Vegeta is able to use his better skill to survive longer against Granolah" while Goku was testing using UI in his other forms. Plus, SSBE is naturally stronger than any of Goku's Super Saiyan forms and is comparable to Omen nowadays, if not stronger.

[Yuji]

It seems Goku can now sense Godly Ki even in his non-God forms. Or perhaps that was an oversight?

[LoganForkHands73]

It's more or less an inversion of how it went in the Broly movie, with Goku performing better against a powered up Ikari Broly in Base and Super Saiyan compared to SSG Vegeta. It probably doesn't mean anything beyond "look, Vegeta is able to use his better skill to survive longer against Granolah" while Goku was testing using UI in his other forms. Plus, SSBE is naturally stronger than any of Goku's Super Saiyan forms and is comparable to Omen nowadays, if not stronger.

That's a good observation, that Goku was too busy experimenting with UI. When Goku went full power Ultra Instinct, he wrecked Granola's clone and only got beaten because of a split-second opening caused by the surprise that he wasn't fighting the "real" Granola. His thoughts clouded his instinct. Goku was the guinea pig for Vegeta to observe and calculate a strategy against Granola's fighting style.

Plus, it's not outside the realm of possibility that Vegeta is simply stronger than Goku now. The clone reveal was supposed to show how powerful Granola must be, so Vegeta being able to spar against that must be his big feat.

Honestly when it’s just fighting and doesn’t move the plot forward in anyway I kind of get bored of it, especially in manga without animation. But to me not only was this an excellent fight with fantastic choreography it also had wonderful character beats for both Vegeta and Granolah.

And I love Vegeta so honestly I am never bored when he is on the page but I feel this fight highlighted so much better how he has changed than the fight against Moro when we had Piccolo unnecessarily in the background telling us how he is different.

On this subject, it's also good to remember that the first 6 chapters of Granolah arc barely have any fights. At this point in the Moro arc we were already in the fight between Boo and Moro.

So the current arc has already spent a considerable amount of time building up the confrontation between Granolah and Goku/Vegeta (which I love, but I remember reading some complaints at the time about the lack of action), so we just started getting chapters focused on battles in recent months. Part of the reason their encounter was expected is precisely because of the build up that took place at the beginning.

Thank you both, I agree with everything you've said. It's crazy that we'd already be up to Buu vs. Moro at this point. I was quite critical that the set-up was getting a bit excessive, so I too am glad it's finally paying off with some chunky fights.

[GalaxyBusterBuu]

I never got the whole appeal of eyebrow-less forms in saiyans. They look ugly to me. Seriously, I don't get what people see in those forms aesthetically, it just looks weird as hell and they'd be better off without it. Like seriously, I can't take Vegeta seriously when he looks like that, it just looks so strange. It's one of the reasons I'm glad Goku almost never uses SSJ3, since not only does he have better forms that don't cost that much energy, the lack of eyebrows make him look weird as fuck.

[GodVegetto91]

It seems Goku can now sense Godly Ki even in his non-God forms. Or perhaps that was an oversight?

This.. Caught my eye aswell! He was in Base Form when he sensed Vegeta’s “Godly Chi..”

Yet we were always under the impression that you need to be in a God form in order to be able to sense it, as the last Arc seems to clearly hint at. (When even Vegeta on Planet Yardrat POST training, couldn’t sense UI Sign Goku’s “Godly Chi”… As he noted, “Only ‘Gods’ can sense Godly Chi..”)

This event does confirm a few things though..

It confirms that Goku and Vegeta do indeed NOT have God Ki in their current Base forms.. (As I believed they may have that since they have access to Godly techniques in Base now, Hakai and UI.)

But no. Apparently only the transformed states have true God ki… (SSJ Silver, and GoD Mode Vegeta.)

It seems there is also a very clear and big difference between the ‘God ki’ of SSJ God, Blue, and Blue Evo…. And on the other hand the far more divine God ki of UI Sign, UI, and Vegeta’s newly achieved GoD Mode…

Apparently you have 2 versions of ‘God ki’ now…

One mortal, the other divine.


I.e. ‘mortal’ God Ki…

And Divine God Ki…

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yeah, Goku also mentioned that the Ki from Vegeta's new transformation has a different feel, which I believe is the first time something like this has been said.

Some people were arguing before about the non-existence of Destruction energy in the manga (since in the anime, Toppo only used the traditional God Ki), and although the manga still names Vegeta's energy as God Ki in this chapter I think that's the the closest we're going to get to seeing in the manga this kind of energy shown in the anime.

Basically, it's still God Ki, but different, which I believe applies to other GoDs too

[Magnificent Ponta]

Funny thing to note. The last time Vegeta got to fight for the sake of fighting was in the Buu saga as Majin Vegeta. Something he probrably also regrets. He is right, its been ages.

Arguably, this might be the first time since his introduction in Dragon Ball that we've seen Vegeta approach a real battle with a basically pure, 'for the love of it' motivation (not just a question of instrumental concerns like saving the world/meeting a self-evident threat). Even the fighting for its own sake in the Buu arc is driven, and tainted, by his crisis of confidence brought out by his own change of character, and his own poisonous regard for Goku as the totem of that change and as the embodied challenge to Vegeta's self-understanding.

(and Vegeta really is the "Hakai no Ouji", this time )

Maybe Granolah's undisputed status as "The Strongest" is slightly liberating for Vegeta; often the battling has been tied up with demonstrating his superiority over Goku by proving he's stronger than the common threat; with this ruled out from the outset, all that's left is the battle itself, and the love of it.

[DiscountDabi]

The Heeters are basically Granolah's Frieza, Elec and Gas especially. I belive Elec will kind of represent Frieza's Cunning while Gas will Repressent his Cold aditude and raw power.

Here is what I hope happends next. Vegeta is about to kill Granolah because he refuses to listen, and then the Heeters use the dragon balls which makes the sky go dark which will distract Vegeta long enough for Granolah to Teleport Away. And then Granolah is going after the Heeters and So are Goku and Vegeta and we get sort of a Namek thing where Granolah and Goku and Vegeta do a temporary team up.

I think they should stick with the Idea that Granolah is a stand in for Saiyan Saga Vegeta.

[Sikat]

What color do you think the new form is? I'm guessing dark green hair or perhaps purple?

It’s just black bro.

Calling this now as a Toriyama correction, or Toyotarou was really trying to mimic Saiyan arc aesthetics for thematic impact.

Spoiler:

No, that’s definitely Toyo’s art. This is how current Toriyama draws:

[Yuji]

No, that’s definitely Toyo’s art. This is how current Toriyama draws:

Yes, look at the round eyes and the shape of the nose, they're similar to the panel I posted. The size of the ears as well.

[Sikat]

No, that’s definitely Toyo’s art. This is how current Toriyama draws:

Yes, look at the round eyes and the shape of the nose, they're similar to the panel I posted. The size of the ears as well.

You might be blind, tough luck.