"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:58 pm

batistabus wrote: All of this nonsense about character assassination is beyond ridiculous. It seems like people want a version of Vegeta that is so mature and level-headed that he no longer bears resemblance to what makes Vegeta distinct. If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball. Just because he acknowledges Goku as better in the Boo arc, that doesn't mean he he's perfectly happy being second best. If that were the case, Super would not be able to exist in its current form. Even if he understands that he is, in reality, not superior, he believes that he can and should be.
So people should not expect any development from Vegeta? Just the same guy who is always grumpy and pursuits the same desire of being stronger than Goku? That had learned nothing with his failures and still do the same mistakes over and over again? Sorry, but the criticisms of these people are valid.

Vegeta should be not an one note character that sole existence is devoted to being someone to compete with Goku. He should have grown past this. Seeing Vegeta giving these speeches, not caring about anyone else and still being the same bastard that understimate his opponents to then be defeated by them moments after is walking on circles with his character.
There's nothing to do there, the same ol' Vegeta to you guys!

MajinMan wrote:How did the manga make Vegeta worse than he was in the anime? How?
Absolutely terrible. This is legit the worst writing for a character I’ve seen in anything DBS related. His rant on the Earthlings and how much more he has suffered than they have, despite the series hinting that he never had any trouble fighting anyone before he fought Goku, is the stupidest thing Vegeta has said in a long time.

Oh, and not only is Vegeta stupid, Jiren also claims that Goku was “fighting back hard in his ascended state,” when in fact Goku literally did not throw a single punch at Jiren. Goku dodged an attack, and got socked in the face. 10/10 writing.
Don't know why you're surprised I believe a lot people know here that both Goku and Vegeta have really poor characterization throughout Super, which IMO Vegeta has the lead of being the worst in both medias.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:15 pm

batistabus wrote:If we ever get a Vegeta that lives up to that unreasonable expectation, that will be the end of his role in Dragon Ball.
Good. I remember a time when characters whose arcs had finished were shelved and made way for new characters with new stories to be told, instead of pointlessly being kept around, constantly retreading the same ground for the sake of appeasing to a fanbase that doesn't really know the first thing about the character they like.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Noah wrote: So people should not expect any development from Vegeta?
People should not expect Vegeta to not act like Vegeta. What you saw in this chapter was a character finally coming to terms with his preferences for the first time in a long time.
JazzMazz wrote:Neither version of the TOP is ideal or lives up in any way to the premise in which the arc was based on, that being an 8 way battle royale between 80 fighters. Neither did a good job of capturing the chaos a battle royale entitles, either due to them brushing past it as quickly as possible, or extending it for so long and going through each and every warrior individually.
Once again, the thing that you're trying to claim is antithetical to the chaos of a battle royale is precisely what epitomizes the chaos of a battle royale.

Play any last man standing deathmatch mode in an online multiplayer game, PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds or even Super Smash Bros. to see this in full effect. Participants are picked off constantly and extremely quickly, always forced into situations where they're facing off against more opponents than their attention spans can accommodate and sidelined faster than they can blink. That's exactly why these environments are consistently thrilling, sporadic and unforgiving. If things aren't structureless and going along at breakneck speed, especially in a much smaller arena like the Tournament of Power, it's not going to live up to that concept in any way, shape or form.

What the manga is, or at least was, doing is 120% faithful to its premise. Whether you personally like that premise is another discussion entirely.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:People should not expect Vegeta to not act like Vegeta. What you saw in this chapter was a character finally coming to terms with his preferences for the first time in a long time.
Speak it for yourself. What I saw it was a character that thrashed all the development he got back on the Boo arc.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:02 pm

Noah wrote:Speak it for yourself. What I saw it was a character that thrashed all the development he got back on the Boo arc.
Please elaborate.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:50 pm

People keep assuming Vegeta threw away his pride and background, the very essence of who he is just because he finally admitted Kakarot was number one against Kid Buu. :lol:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:53 pm

This is just a public service announcement.

Image
The kanzenban release featured a completely new ending written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. This new ending expanded upon the original to include two additional pages in which Goku hands down Kinto-Un to Oob, bringing the series full circle. The chapter’s final narration was also rewritten to shift the source of Earth’s safety from the Dragon Balls to that of the “incredible guys” that reside there. In addition, Toriyama’s original goodbye message has been replaced with two new panels of Vegeta declaring his ongoing aspiration to defeat Goku.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:54 pm

TKA wrote:This is just a public service announcement.

Image
The kanzenban release featured a completely new ending written and illustrated by Akira Toriyama. This new ending expanded upon the original to include two additional pages in which Goku hands down Kinto-Un to Oob, bringing the series full circle. The chapter’s final narration was also rewritten to shift the source of Earth’s safety from the Dragon Balls to that of the “incredible guys” that reside there. In addition, Toriyama’s original goodbye message has been replaced with two new panels of Vegeta declaring his ongoing aspiration to defeat Goku.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

There you have it, folks.
Thanks TKA.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The gr » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:02 pm

IM21 wrote:
Liquir wrote:Has anyone seen Toyotaro's twitter account lately? On his latest tweet there are hundreds of replies from the French DB community thrashing him personally and even some threats towards him. From what I can translate ( via google translate ) they are dissatisfied with the TOP Manga arc and want him to resign.
I am actually surprised it's just the french. There is so much bitching about the manga on Youtube, twitter and reddit that this kind of stupidity doesn't surprise me. Yes, you can hate the manga, even I have some major problems with it, but it would never cross my mind to go and threat the creator or start bitching about how he should lose his job. Some people are just idiots. This forum is pretty much the only kinda normal place to talk DB, other than that the DB fanbase is sometimes just pathetic.
Here is no diferent with people wanting Toyo fired or attack his twitter because Krillin and Tien got shafted but I will agree that this attitude is borderline pathetic and it needs to die.
    Man remember some of the earlier chapter, they were so good especially 33,34 and 37 nowadays the Manga can't reach that level of quality anymore :cry:
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by reecehoward » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:17 pm

    TKA wrote:
    HeroR wrote:And that’s a bad thing? One Piece is much better written show than all of Z. Given characters spotlight instead of tossing them in the trash when they’re not needed anymore isn’t a negative or ‘fan-service’. It gives a character depth, something Z lack a lot of the time.
    Yes, that's a bad thing. One Piece is a bad series. Now you can disagree with me if you want on that. I'm just letting you know it's a pretty bad show and that you calling it good and Dragonball bad is as meaningless as me telling you I think OP is bottom of the barrel garbage.

    Now here's something that has actual meaning:

    "Throwing away" characters isn't a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, despite the negative connotations implicit in that term. Some characters are better in small doses, some characters are better when their character arcs end, etc. Toriyama is smart in that he moves characters to the background instead of keeping them onscreen because he feels some misguided need to "feature" them or "give them spotlight." Characters should only be around when they can be in service to the story being told. Characters should only be focused upon when they enhance the story being told.

    I have a strong distaste for One Piece because so much of it is superfluous drivel. There's an old adage in show biz that goes "If you can't make it good, at least make it short." One Piece isn't good, but Oda sure is keeping it going instead of ending it. At least Toriyama had the decency to end Dragonball much sooner since you think it's so inferior to ol' One Piece, right? :thumbup:
    HeroR wrote:otherwise so many characters introduced in Super wouldn't have become fan favorites.
    Broly is a fan favorite. Janemba is a fan favorite. Cooler is a fan favorite.

    All three of them are shallow as shit characters. If there's one thing DB's fandom has proven over the years, it's that "argumentum ad populum" is still a logical fallacy. How many people like or gravitate to a character has little more to do with than just the strength of the character. Stuff like the animation, or voice acting play a huge role in how characters in animation are received. The writing of the characters in the tournament of power and in anime super at large is often contradictory, illogical or hackneyed.

    I don't care which bandwagon the twitter generation latches on to.
    LightBing wrote:
    To be perfectly clear I'm not saying don't criticize the manga or anything else, however when your input is "I hate modern Dragon Ball" you're not looking for a conversation but validation.
    I was about to reply to you and say "even though I don't enjoy reading through those negative nancy posts, they're still valuable. This is a forum, forums are meant for discussion. Even if you don't agree with them, it's important that both sides be heard so that meaningful exchange of ideas and perspectives can be done."

    However, you're absolutely right about that last bit and that sums things up perfectly. There've been users who are afraid to comment and who actively avoid this thread just because people are so zealously negative in their treatment of the manga each month. I personally feel it goes beyond the realm of just criticism when you have people comment stuff like "The DBS manga does its monthly job of making the anime look good." That shit is stupid and doesn't help anyone.
    reecehoward wrote: So Goku was able to tell Roshi in depth what he was taught by all of his masters including Whis, yet somehow conveniently forgets them... That's a hell of a lot of suspension of belief. :lol:
    Uhm. What? That isn't at all what happened.

    Roshi told Goku to remember the basic lesson all his masters have taught him. Goku then pieced it together in his head and it was illustrated for us. Roshi gave him the vague advice to look to his previous experiences, and then Goku pieced it all together himself.

    --------------------------------------------------

    I try to ignore these cyclical discussions, but since I ended up talking about the Roshi thing, I might as well address it.

    Roshi is absolutely more experienced than Goku. He's been around longer. His techniques are also more esoteric and specific than Goku's. Goku is stronger, has fought and defeated stronger warriors, and trained with stronger people but it's ridiculous to say he's more experienced than Roshi. Roshi is literally hundreds of years older than him.
    Again, i bring up the arguement of Lebron James vs his high school gym coach. I'm sure that with all the foundations his teacher laid, he has never experienced the game of basketball to the level Lebron James has in his much shorter lifespan. The same applies to Roshi vs Goku. Roshi has never faced opponents anywhere close to what Goku has. The one opponent Roshi faced whom he was completely outclassed by...GOKU DEFEATED THAT GUY! For all of Roshi's life experiences, he fell behind Goku a hell of a long time ago. Add to that, what verifiable opponents could have given Roshi experience over Goku, when dude has never even left Earth aside from the current arc? You all keep making the mistake of equating Roshi's age and title as a master over the reality of the fact that he has NEVER experienced the type of journey or opponents Goku has. Roshi's experience was primarily tournament style settings.

    Also, esoteric abilities are not Goku's style, which is why he doesn't mimic certain abilities Roshi used against him back in Dragonball. Paralyzing and hypnosis is not something Goku WOULD do, even if he can. So bringing up those abilities as proof of experience is null, especially being that Goku has encountered many of those abilities and some to a much higher degree.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Noah » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:28 pm

    Miracles wrote:
    TKA wrote:
    There you have it, folks. Thanks TKA.

    Too bad that doesn't prove a thing. Vegeta is smiling while saying these words, it's way different from screaming at the top of his lungs that he will defeat Goku. The main issue is not him wanting to surpass his rival, but yes being overly obsessed with it.
    TKA wrote:Please elaborate.
    Not really willing to repeat myself, but some of my thoughts were expressed on this thread
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Rakurai » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:42 pm

    Raphael_Z wrote:
    Rakurai wrote:
    sintzu wrote:
    You'd think Toppo being the 2nd antagonist would've gotten something but nope, just blown away by Vegeta powering up as if he were a Yamcha or Raditz. Toyotaro did an amazing job on the Black arc so it's a shame to see such a drop in quality now. Hopefully things will pick up again once he gets to Broly as I've read that's one of his best characters so hopefully his work will be as well.
    Nappa was the secondary antagonist of the Saiyan saga and went down like he was low-level trash against his own companion.

    Ginyu was the second most powerful after Frieza and we never even got to see him fight properly. Humiliated by Krillin in Goku's very own body, no less.

    Dabura was the second most powerful after Buu and he got the Nappa treatment but worse, he wasn't even worth looking at by Babidi after Buu was resurrected.

    Not sure how Toppo's role fared worse against these villains, he wasn't treated like fodder the entire time. Especially since his demise was important to the characterization of Jiren.

    Really, the way that Toei handled the ToP felt more like One Piece than it did Dragon Ball, with all the villains getting their own dedicated chapter/episode to show their stuff as part of character fanservice. That's my gripe with the anime, we didn't need that, we just needed a story that feels more natural and not fanservice-like.
    In an ideal world, the definitive TOP should've been the Manga way (battle Royale, everyone is a fodder) up until Ch 38 and then the Anime way moving fowards (dedicated one to one battles with some backstory).

    We didn't need an episode of Krillin and A18 teaming up, we didn't need an episode of Tien vs the sniper and we didn't need an episode of the U6 Namekians so Toyotaro was right in disposing of them all quickly but come on!!! Kefla and Gohan double KO? Toppo and Dyspo getting eliminated like cartoon characters? Roshi OHK the cyborg dude then getting OHK by Jiren?

    In hindsight, I would've preferred a Saiyan Saga homage with Jiren ruthlessly ringing out Toppo while mocking him for being weak in the same way that Vegeta ruthlessly killed Nappa. But nah, this chapter has been the worst one ever.

    FFS Toyotaro, you had ONE job: deliver an awesome finale to the TOP.
    Toyo's job is to tell a DB-esque story. Which he has been doing thus far.
    sintzu wrote:
    Rakurai wrote:Toppo has had enough screen time. Through his elimination, we saw more into what kind of a person Jiren really is and what he thinks of his comrades. And by DB standards, that was more than enough.
    Shouldn't DB's standards be trying to evolve and be better ? Regardless, DB's standards in regards to Toppo were already set in the anime and the manga failed to live up to them. I don't see how Toppo being used as a tool for Jiren was better than him being his own character in the anime.
    Like I mentioned, that felt more like One Piece than it did DB. That's what I disliked about the anime ToP in fact. It used a formula that was not suited for its storytelling, and in fact can become very disruptive to One Piece's general story flow at times.

    I do wish DB would become more emotional, expressive, and terrifying. Like Toei's original Bardock special. That's the DB I had wished for, but it's obviously not the DB that Toriyama nor Toyotaro are willing to write based on Super's direction. If it was written like Toei today, Bardock would've had Frieza cornered and beaten until he started to get a little more serious in his final transformation. The F. Trunks saga came closest to that, but even the ending was stupidly resolved like Resurrection F with a literal deus ex machina.

    The ToP is clearly being rushed, no doubt about that. And I do think Toyo could've expanded a bit more on character interactions if he had more time. But the way he weaves the main characters within their realm of expectations, their role in the story, makes sense.
    HeroR wrote:
    Characters are part of trying to tell a story, they're not two different things. Even when Toriyama makes throw away characters like the Ginyu Force, they're treated with more respect than Toyo gives his version of the characters, and this is including characters who are supposed to be the main focused.

    You can appreciate an aspect of someone's storytelling, but to say that given characters spotlight is 'filler' is eyerolling because if you don't build up characters, why should we give a damn about what happens to anyone? Oh, Jiren let his teammates fall out of the ring.....who gives a damn since the manga made sure we the audience are apathetic. Trunks' entire timeline got wiped.....who cares? Toyo made sure we didn't care and neither did the characters in the story.
    I don't know how the Ginyu Force was treated with more respect than the Pride Troopers in the manga. To say that is quite debatable because most of them with the exception of Recoome were picked apart pretty easily or sadly.

    In terms of DB, the DBS manga is closer to the DB manga than it is to the DBS anime in terms of storytelling and structure. That's all I can say, because the original DB manga suffers from the same issues you pointed out. Toriyama never built up or hyped up characters like the ToP anime, which is why most episodes felt disruptive and silly to me. I enjoy its pace and the organic, unfluffed interactions of the characters.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by TKA » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:55 pm

    reecehoward wrote: Again, i bring up the arguement of Lebron James vs his high school gym coach. I'm sure that with all the foundations his teacher laid, he has never experienced the game of basketball to the level Lebron James has in his much shorter lifespan.
    Cool.

    Here's another example:

    Let's look at an army general. Been through many wars and many battlefields. Hasn't been on one in about 30 years. New guys are out there in way more intense and way more chaotic battles than he was because technology has progressed that much and we've gotten really good at killing each other. The army general, despite the difference in his performance vs the performance of the new blood, is still extremely valuable and is still the one giving orders.

    But let's go back to your LeBron example to really hammer home what I'm saying to you now.
    “He got me,” LeBron said of Tatum's dunk over him. "That f***ing Tatum boomed me."

    LeBron added, “He’s so good,” repeating it four times.

    LeBron then said he wanted to add Tatum to the list of players he works out with this summer.

    The dunk in question.

    So there we have LeBron himself, despite being widely considered the best basketball player alive right now, saying he wants to train with a guy that is generally considered inferior to him because he wants to learn.

    That's literally the same case with Goku. I, and many others at many points over the last month have said that Goku is indeed stronger than Roshi, but that doesn't mean Goku can't learn anything from Roshi. In this case, Roshi just reminded him to look to his teachings to find another approach. This notion that just because Goku fought tougher people and is stronger means he absolutely can't learn anything from someone weaker than him is utter nonsense than runs counter to everything Dragonball has tried to teach.

    You know, the whole "There's always more to learn" aspect of the series. It's evident in the fact that no matter how strong Goku becomes he always ends up training with a new master. Goku himself always wants to learn more.
    Also, esoteric abilities are not Goku's style,
    So, in other words, Roshi has a bunch of moves Goku never learned. Which is what I said. Thanks for reaffirming that. It was Roshi, after all, who he went to in order to learn the Mafuba.
    So bringing up those abilities as proof of experience is null, especially being that Goku has encountered many of those abilities and some to a much higher degree.
    Nonsense.

    Just because I know how to fight forest fires doesn't mean I know how to fight electrical fires. Or oil fires. Or chemical fires. Etc.

    Roshi has specific experiences, accumulated over centuries, that Goku doesn't. It's that simple.
    Noah wrote:
    Not really willing to repeat myself, but some of my thoughts were expressed on this thread
    I was hoping you had newer, stronger points than those.

    I think this will suffice.
    Too bad that doesn't prove a thing. Vegeta is smiling while saying these words, it's way different from screaming at the top of his lungs that he will defeat Goku. The main issue is not him wanting to surpass his rival, but yes being overly obsessed with it.
    I take it this is your first time seeing that panel.

    Vegeta isn't smiling. He's frowning. Buy the volume and look at the page. Or zoom in. I don't know if the quality is good enough for you to see.

    And you thoroughly misunderstand the context of the moment in this most recent chapter if you thought that's what he was screaming about. His anger is directed at himself for not being true to who he was. He's angry that he let himself fall so far behind trying to be something he wasn't while Goku gets better doing things the way Goku always does things.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:39 pm

    TKA wrote:
    reecehoward wrote:
    Roshi has specific experiences, accumulated over centuries, that Goku doesn't. It's that simple.
    That point can easily be made for Goku too though. Not only that, but being that the entire franchise is about Goku, we know virtually all of the encounters that Goku has come across. Whereas Roshi, we have to guess the experiences that he has had, other than what we are shown or told about. Everything is speculation. Just look at the difference in their characters. Goku is drunk on fighting and growing stronger. That's literally all he cares about, besides food. Roshi is an old pervert who lounges about and looks at porn. Quality over Quantiy. Roshi may have some experiences that Goku does not, but as a general "who has more experience" statement, I feel the scale is heavily tipped in Goku's favor. It only makes sense though too. As stated before, it's his show.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Noah » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:14 pm

    TKA wrote:I was hoping you had newer, stronger points than those. I think this will suffice.
    I don't think this suffice at all. You know, even if my desire is that someday Vegeta overcome his one sided rivalry with Goku, is not like that's my biggest gripe with his character. We can have him to compete with the main character, just don't make his character be solely based on that. It's tiresome and there's no enjoyment in a rehashed portrayal. Even considering the addition on the Kanzenban, I can clearly see why people expected that after admiting Goku's the number one, Vegeta wouldn't make that the goal of his life anymore, even expressing the desire of surpassing Goku anyway.

    The main issue is there's no growth for Vegeta in Super, his relationship with Cabba could've lead us to another path, but that don't seem to go anywhere.
    I take it this is your first time seeing that panel. Vegeta isn't smiling. He's frowning. Buy the volume and look at the page. Or zoom in. I don't know if the quality is good enough for you to see.

    And you thoroughly misunderstand the context of the moment in this most recent chapter if you thought that's what he was screaming about. His anger is directed at himself for not being true to who he was. He's angry that he let himself fall so far behind trying to be something he wasn't while Goku gets better doing things the way Goku always does things.
    Oh pardon then, I sure had seen this panel before though I'm more used to the Tankobon. About the screaming part, I was referring to the anime, my criticism towards Vegeta characterization are mostly based on it. But there, we didn't had absurd things like Vegeta stating he reached his current level all by himself, nor diminishing Whis teachings or giving a pointless rant on the earthlings. Never had much problems with his portrayal on the manga until this very chapter.
    Rakurai wrote:That's not a smile to me.
    Already addressed on this post.
    Last edited by Noah on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Rakurai » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:17 pm

    Noah wrote: Too bad that doesn't prove a thing. Vegeta is smiling while saying these words, it's way different from screaming at the top of his lungs that he will defeat Goku. The main issue is not him wanting to surpass his rival, but yes being overly obsessed with it.
    That's not a smile to me.

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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Rakurai » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:31 pm

    Noah wrote:
    Rakurai wrote:That's not a smile to me.
    Already addressed on this post.
    Just saw your post and wanted to clear that up.

    Also, that middle bubble line:

    「そのうち必ず勝って見せるからなカカロット...」

    "I'll definitely win. You'll see soon, Kakarotto..."

    It doesn't sound like one of endearing rivalry. It sounds more like a grudge. I'm sure not a lot of fans must've been happy with this statement either when the Kanzenban was released, but it stands to be IC with what Toyo wrote for Vegeta this latest chapter tbh.
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    TKA
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by TKA » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:36 pm

    ssj3kakarot wrote:
    That point can easily be made for Goku too though.
    Absolutely right. Hell yes it can be made for Goku. It should be made for Goku.

    However, it doesn't counter my point at all. Goku has specific experiences Roshi could never fathom as well. Again, I might know how to fight forest fires, but that doesn't mean I know how to fight chemical fires.
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by ssj3kakarot » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:37 pm

    TKA wrote:
    ssj3kakarot wrote:
    That point can easily be made for Goku too though.
    Absolutely right. Hell yes it can be made for Goku. It should be made for Goku.

    However, it doesn't counter my point at all. Goku has specific experiences Roshi could never fathom as well. Again, I might know how to fight forest fires, but that doesn't mean I know how to fight chemical fires.
    I might not have read the start of this Roshi/Goku experiences part in this thread, so bare with me. But what was the original point about then?
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    Miracles
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    Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

    Post by Miracles » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:03 am

    Noah wrote:Too bad that doesn't prove a thing. Vegeta is smiling while saying these words, it's way different from screaming at the top of his lungs that he will defeat Goku. The main issue is not him wanting to surpass his rival, but yes being overly obsessed with it.
    Oh no! You are right. We've never seen Vegeta with or without a smile [even tho Vegeta wasn't smiling], while having a one track mind in surpassing Goku in all of Dragonball. :lol:

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