"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Mr Baggins
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:07 pm

batistabus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:27 pm You guys don't think this chapter plays appropriately with the themes of the arc? I think that's worth thinking about, anyway. It deals with the root of Granolah's trauma. While Vegeta and Granolah are prisoners of the past, Bardock is willing to change the course of his life on a whim based on the present moment.
I agree with everything TKA said.

I don't think Bardock, or at least what they're doing with him at the moment, holds any meaningful significance to the underlying subject matter of being weighed down by the past or moving on from it. His whim doesn't seem thematically relevant to me, nor does it feel particularly connected to Granolah's character arc or Vegeta's so far. If there's a takeaway at all here, I don't see it becoming evident until later.

As I've mentioned before, I also don't think any of this is going to redeem Granolah. That's probably what Monaito intends, but given how single-minded Granolah's pursuit of vengeance has been (even in this chapter, instead of ruminating about the Saiyans he immediately rushes to ask about his mother), the "swerve" is that it'll backfire into things becoming more personal for him. The Heeters are responsible for the death of the person he cherishes most. He'll let go of the Saiyans only because he's preoccupied with killing the group he's been working for all along.

That's what I assume, anyway. These aren't conclusions on my part, they're all just preliminary impressions. I can't decisively evaluate an arc without full context.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hellspawn28 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:21 pm

MCDaveG wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:00 am Hence it doesn’t make sense now, with Raditz and other Saiyans of old being basically genocidal fighting manics by nature.
Raditz was not there when Bardock send Goku off to space. Raditz assumes that Goku was sent to Earth to destroy it.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:47 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:55 am People are still bitching about that one thing Vegeta said?
Vegeta wasn’t present when Bardock was in Cereal. He probably didn’t even know about Bardock’s family situation. All he knows is that Bardock did that one act of kindness, and he chose to make a witty remark about it.
Shoot, we SEE the ACTUAL reason why Bardock chose to save Granolah and Museli: they remind him of his own wife and child (Goku). Empathy is clearly not a genetic trait of the Saiyans.
Did y’all forget that Goku was still a mean little prick when he was a toddler—like a normal Saiyan child—before getting bonked by a rock?
I think the spoilers that come out before the chapter are doing more harm than good nowadays :D

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:13 pm

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:47 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:55 am People are still bitching about that one thing Vegeta said?
Vegeta wasn’t present when Bardock was in Cereal. He probably didn’t even know about Bardock’s family situation. All he knows is that Bardock did that one act of kindness, and he chose to make a witty remark about it.
Shoot, we SEE the ACTUAL reason why Bardock chose to save Granolah and Museli: they remind him of his own wife and child (Goku). Empathy is clearly not a genetic trait of the Saiyans.
Did y’all forget that Goku was still a mean little prick when he was a toddler—like a normal Saiyan child—before getting bonked by a rock?
I think the spoilers that come out before the chapter are doing more harm than good nowadays :D
I’d argue the spoilers were never doing good from the get go
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by MajinPopo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:57 pm

TKA wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:32 pm
MajinPopo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:51 am
To be fair, the fiction involving the actual story and the characters is far more important and interesting than the propagandistic meta-fiction dreamed up by sad bitter bourgeoise liberals in a mainstream cookie-cutter industry who thinks they're fighting the power, while sharing every opinion that said "power" tells them to.

That is, people pick the far more interesting topic to discuss.
I don't find fiction devoid of any real life issues interesting. I find that rather rote and inhuman, to be frank. A three year old can recite the plot of something to you, yet most college age adults can't analyze anything on any level below that. If that's what I was about, I'd be out here making reaction videos to Marvel movies or some shit.

Also, the argument of "You criticize capitalism, yet you perform capitalism, curious?" is silly. Don't do it.
Nobody said that fiction had to be devoid of real life issues. However, when the only reason you're interested in it is because of the political propaganda angle, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to dictate the direction of the fiction or it's discussion in the first place. You want it to be a platform rather than an enjoyable story. It's disingenuous and foolish.

The thing is, you ARE reacting to comic movies. You're bitching because nobody wants to talk about the propaganda angles of it with you.

It would have been nice if you responded to the entire thing, rather than cherry picking pieces but whatever.

I never argued what you said I argued, but now that you bring it up, being an abject hypocrite is pretty ridiculous yeah. Again, it's interesting that your response is "Don't do it".

That is; you're acting like you should be able to dictate how others act, speak and think, because it upsets you when your integrity is questioned, and you're miserable because you can't. I tried to be fair to you in my statement and never once told you what you should or shouldn't say, even if I disagreed. It's telling that you don't extend others the same courtesy.

Who would have thought, the hypocritical petty soft-tyrant personality type also likes fiction full of propaganda funded by large political/corporate/military interests.

Welp.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:26 am

RedHairedGuy on Youtube animated the opening battle sequence from Chapter 75:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHRcombv_M

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:36 am

batistabus wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:27 pm You guys don't think this chapter plays appropriately with the themes of the arc? I think that's worth thinking about, anyway. It deals with the root of Granolah's trauma. While Vegeta and Granolah are prisoners of the past, Bardock is willing to change the course of his life on a whim based on the present moment.
It plays on the themes of the arc because Bardock’s actions are what creates a trauma for Gas, who also cannot let go of the past.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:31 am

emperior wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:36 am It plays on the themes of the arc because Bardock’s actions are what creates a trauma for Gas, who also cannot let go of the past.
First, I'd like to say you might be on to something about where Gas' character will go.

But man is it fucking lame if that's what's going on. Showing Gas acting the same then as he does now is sterile writing. "Show, don't tell" is a played out internet adage that people misuse, but it still holds value. If Gas is to be traumatized by this loss, then the flashback was a perfect opportunity to show him being different from how he is now.

You don't even need to write him drastically differently. Even just a physical transformation is enough. It doesn't even have to be too different; something as simple as a change in expression can work. Here's an example.
MajinPopo wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:51 amTo be fair, the fiction involving the actual story and the characters is far more important and interesting than the propagandistic
If you're going to be throwing the word "propaganda" around, which you've been liberally doing, then you should realize literally every piece of fiction ever spoken by man is propagandistic, even ones that don't purport to be. That's what happens when you use the word as broadly as you're using it.
Nobody said that fiction had to be devoid of real life issues. However, when the only reason you're interested in it is because of the political propaganda angle, then maybe you shouldn't be trying to dictate the direction of the fiction or it's discussion in the first place.
There is no "or" here. The preferable answer is "And". If you wish to make something that has nothing to say, or no deeper meaning to any of it, that's fine. That's what the vast majority of media is because that's what's most profitable to make. When we apply your broad definition of propaganda, then even those milquetoast, garden variety stories are saying something: they're reinforcing the status quo and propping up capital.
You want it to be a platform rather than an enjoyable story. It's disingenuous and foolish.
What a terrible way to speak to someone.

But sure, you can live in the world where Dante's Inferno is about a guy going into hell and not about the fall of the catholic church.
The thing is, you ARE reacting to comic movies. You're bitching because nobody wants to talk about the propaganda angles of it with you.
The first person who accuses another of "bitching" is usually the one guilty of it, buckaroo.
It would have been nice if you responded to the entire thing, rather than cherry picking pieces but whatever.
I don't see a need to make pages longer by quoting every single thing in a post. This post I'm making right now shows how silly that is. I'd rather just quote and respond to the point I find most salient instead of this pedantic petty nonsense. But if that's what floats your boat, have at it.
I never argued what you said I argued, but now that you bring it up, being an abject hypocrite is pretty ridiculous yeah. Again, it's interesting that your response is "Don't do it".
Let me break down your argument for you.
than the propagandistic meta-fiction dreamed up by sad bitter bourgeoise liberals in a mainstream cookie-cutter industry who thinks they're fighting the power, while sharing every opinion that said "power" tells them to.
That right there is nonsense. The idea that you can't criticize the industry while working in the industry is the same argument as "You criticize capitalism, yet you capitalism." If you don't work in the industry, your critiques don't matter and never get heard.

Take the Squid Game creator. He wrote Squid Game 10 years ago. But he was poor and was never able to get it made. Parasite then came out a few years ago, made critiques of capitalism and the societal stratification it engenders, became massively successful and thus resulted in Capital doing a "follow the leader" approach to find more works like it. That is why Squid Game got made, and got to get its message out there—a message, mind you, that is resonant with people. Of course, it will be commodified to hell and back, as these things are, but unless you're going to start a worker-owned co-op film studio worth billions of dollars... well you can just sit there and whine about these artists not passing your purity tests.
That is; you're acting like you should be able to dictate how others act, speak and think, because it upsets you when your integrity is questioned, and you're miserable because you can't.
This is a forum. People post their perspectives. My perspective is that discussing the ABCs of plot is boring. I don't care to discuss power levels, or the intricacies of how a fictitious world works. If people want to discuss that, there's little I can do, but I would much prefer to discuss themes, motifs and intention. I like art because I like to interpret, not to repeat. If the repetition of what happened is what I came to art for, I would just read wikipedia plot summaries.
I tried to be fair to you in my statement and never once told you what you should or shouldn't say, even if I disagreed. It's telling that you don't extend others the same courtesy.
Bad arguments shouldn't be made.
Who would have thought, the hypocritical petty soft-tyrant personality type also likes fiction full of propaganda funded by large political/corporate/military interests.
Yeah, TKA on a dragonball forum telling strangers online to not get so caught up in the nostalgia for an old tv special that they miss out on what the actual author wants to do is the fascistic tyranny Marx warned us about. :clap:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:58 am

batistabus wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:26 am RedHairedGuy on Youtube animated the opening battle sequence from Chapter 75:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GHRcombv_M
HOLY CRAP that is impressive
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Nistarkail » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:52 am

Hellspawn28 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:37 am How strong is Monaito? The guy stop Bardock's attack, I would imagine that he is stronger than Kami.
Stronger than Kurinin (206) but weaker than Tien (250). Stats taken from 23th Budokai.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:56 pm

Dragon Ball, amirite?

Pretty sure this whole mess comes down to how clumsy a lot of the execution for this was. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and hope that the next chapter gives a better sense of where they're going for this, but I am worried that this might be representative of the arc in its entirety.
But man is it fucking lame if that's what's going on. Showing Gas acting the same then as he does now is sterile writing. "Show, don't tell" is a played out internet adage that people misuse, but it still holds value. If Gas is to be traumatized by this loss, then the flashback was a perfect opportunity to show him being different from how he is now.

This is sort of what I'm talking about and why this flashback stuff bothers me. Unless something incredibly traumatic happened to Gas, if its just "oh no I was humiliated by Bardock--vengeance is miiiiine!!!" then that's lame. It's extremely lame.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:30 pm

My expectations for Gas is that he's just always been hung up on his strength, and a humiliating loss is a humiliating loss. Not expecting it to have informed the whole of his personality for 40 years, but that bitter memory might be the final trigger he needs to, say ... trade his remaining life expectancy for power on the same planet where it happened. Especially if further buttered up by Elec, who I am fully predicting intends to sacrifice him as long as he can take out Granolah, the Saiyans, and Freeza before biting it.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Oct 26, 2021 5:05 am

We already had a character who gave up everything for strength, except he was way more interested. Jiren and his saga with his master wasn’t that long ago.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:58 am

If Gas's background really is that straightforward, then not only would that be the blandest motivation for an antagonist by far in Super, I still wouldn't see how that ties Bardock into the themes of the arc. It'd have nothing to do with Bardock's character, but just the fact that Gas lost a fight. It effectively means he's there for the plot and that's it.

I have enough faith in Toyotaro to think there'd be a lot more to next month's chapter than something so boring and trite.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:14 pm

I honestly cannot see what else Elec would wish for other than strength for Gas. I also cannot see what Gas' deal with Bardock is apart from bEinG hUMilIaTeD by him. Toyo better pull something off next chapter, I am not too keen with predicting everything in the story correctly.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:14 pm

Gas seems pretty confident in his abilities as they stand (despite that his confidence may be misplaced). He reacts to the Bardock encounter as if it was a fluke; that he has always been stronger. This is not necessarily a prediction, but if he had one wish, he could conceivably wish back Bardock so he could prove his superiority. Elec wouldn't permit that wish, and I'm definitely not on the "bring Bardock back to life" train, but that's my analysis based on the little we know about Gas.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:39 pm

batistabus wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:14 pm Gas seems pretty confident in his abilities as they stand (despite that his confidence may be misplaced). He reacts to the Bardock encounter as if it was a fluke; that he has always been stronger. This is not necessarily a prediction, but if he had one wish, he could conceivably wish back Bardock so he could prove his superiority. Elec wouldn't permit that wish, and I'm definitely not on the "bring Bardock back to life" train, but that's my analysis based on the little we know about Gas.
I have also thought of this scenario. It would be crazy.

But really, how can Gas be stronger than Goku, Vegeta and Granolah? That would be quite dumb.

And he also looked quite confident in the past, yet he lost to Bardock of all people. A low-class warrior. If he lost to Freeza, that would be another thing. But Bardock? Come on. Gas is just a delusional character.

I think if they really want to revive Bardock, maybe they will do it with a second wish by the Heeters. Say, Gas is powered up by a wish and is able to beat everyone also due to them being very tired from the fight, but they are able to escape through Goku teleporting them away,
Left alone on Cereal, and power-drunk, he decides to have revenge on Bardock and thus collects the DBs once again to revive him, maybe going against his family which might have planned to first power up Gas so that he can kill everyone and then allow them to collect the DBs without opposition, to get infinite wishes with the Dragon.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:15 pm

Could that be done? revive somebody who died 40 years ago, I mean. I know every set of DB works in a different way, but shouldn't Bardock's soul have been reincarnated in somebody else a long time ago? maybe he's already died, AGAIN, and is living his third life now.

Anyway, it's hard to see where's Gas' place. Gas is below Freeza, who is still considered to be the top dog by Elecc, even though they know about Moro, and they have felt (maybe they can't feel ki)/ witnessed Granolah's power.

I don't think Gas could be a threat to the Three Amigos even at this time, maybe the DBs can close that gap a bit.
Or maybe it's just all a big joke, Gas is just a weakling and that's the punchline. That they are completely out of their depth and have no clue about it even though they so proudly speak about intel and knowledge.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:33 pm

Pretty sure it can. Freeza was dead for fifteen years and was able to return. Even if we take Piccolo's exposition, he probably wasn't thinking about a possible Shenlong's interference in that process. Maybe the action and point of reviving someone through Shenlong's power is to bring back/"revitalize" the old body and soul of the deceased person to the living realm while ignoring Piccolo's exposition.

And then, of course, there's Toriyama himself saying it's possible to bring him back.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:45 pm

Oh well, I guess that settles it. If the plot needs it to be possible, then it'll be.

Too bad for his new wife, though, having dinner with the reincarnated Bardock that will suddenly get his soul transferred back to a saiyan body to fight some little shit. Like Biggie in South Park when somebody said his name three times in front of a mirror.

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