"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

So what's the problem? It resolves the Paradox issue cleanly. I don't understand how this ruined Black and Zamasus character? I like that Black actually clearly has personality traits from both a saiyan and himself. Basically he really is Zamasu in Goku clothing... definitely hate the Goku kiss thing and i feel like it's time for Toriyama to let someone else handle his characters. Anyway overall I don't see what the big deal is?

[Doctor.]

Manga Black is a cowardly little worm. According to Beerus, he chose the future timeline because he was afraid of Beerus (despite successfully killing all the Supreme Kais and he could have easily killed U7's Supreme Kai) and because all the Z-Fighters are dead (despite having Goku's body and could have easily torn apart all the Z-Fighters in the current timeline outside of Vegeta). I mean, why not just wished for immorality and just railed road those stronger than him if he didn't want to fight people equal or stronger than him?

TBF, all versions of Black/Zamasu are morons when you realize they can use the Super Dragon Balls to remove all of the mortals that annoy them so much.

That is a good point, but I always handwaved it as "They enjoy their suffering enough to want to do it themselves". At least Black seemed to.

Manga Black is just a moron though.

[TheMikado]

Manga Black is a cowardly little worm. According to Beerus, he chose the future timeline because he was afraid of Beerus (despite successfully killing all the Supreme Kais and he could have easily killed U7's Supreme Kai) and because all the Z-Fighters are dead (despite having Goku's body and could have easily torn apart all the Z-Fighters in the current timeline outside of Vegeta). I mean, why not just wished for immorality and just railed road those stronger than him if he didn't want to fight people equal or stronger than him?

TBF, all versions of Black/Zamasu are morons when you realize they can use the Super Dragon Balls to remove all of the mortals that annoy them so much.

That is a good point, but I always handwaved it as "They enjoy their suffering enough to want to do it themselves". At least Black seemed to.

Manga Black is just a moron though.

But he was Zamasu first, why waste the wish to switch bodies in the first place?

[Mazingerdestro]

So Zamasu hates Goku for making more views than him in Godtube?
Well maybe he should stop making reaction videos on tournament battles.

I have stated how useless the first Black vs Goku was and I am happy that the manga ignored it but this is weird. Zamasu has no reason to hate Goku more than Vegeta or hit.
I think the anime handled it way better but we will see.

[Doctor.]

But he was Zamasu first, why waste the wish to switch bodies in the first place?

Because he was clearly obsessed with Goku and wanted that power as his own. He got his worldview shattered when Goku was allowed to stand on Kaioshin soil, but also beat him in a one-on-one, whilst holding back. He explained it against Vegetto, Goku personifies all the errors of the Gods and the mortals and he wants to take all that sin and atone for it himself.

Manga!Zamasu watched some videos and got triggered, pretty shit motivation if you ask me.

[TheMikado]

So Zamasu hates Goku for making more views than him in Godtube?
Well maybe he should stop making reaction videos on tournament battles.
I think the anime handled it way better but we will see.

If I didn't know any better I would assume the original outline doesn't specifically say why Zamasu cares about Goku at all or at least Blacks origins.

Did the original outline say
"Zamasu wishes for Gokus body because of reasons...

[TheMikado]

But he was Zamasu first, why waste the wish to switch bodies in the first place?

Because he was clearly obsessed with Goku and wanted that power as his own. He got his worldview shattered when Goku was allowed to stand on Kaioshin soil, but also beat him in a one-on-one, whilst holding back. He explained it against Vegetto, Goku personifies all the errors of the Gods and the mortals and he wants to take all that sin and atone for it himself.

Manga!Zamasu watched some videos and got triggered, pretty shit motivation if you ask me.

See my last comment. You would think a characters origin would be the one thing consistent to the outline..

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, the chapter ends in episode 60, except we haven't seen Super Saiyan Rose & Future Zamasu yet, and Present Zamasu is still alive, right?

[Mazingerdestro]

So Zamasu hates Goku for making more views than him in Godtube?
Well maybe he should stop making reaction videos on tournament battles.
I think the anime handled it way better but we will see.

If I didn't know any better I would assume the original outline doesn't specifically say why Zamasu cares about Goku at all or at least Blacks origins.

Did the original outline say
"Zamasu wishes for Gokus body because of reasons...

I updated my comment you can check it but my intend was to make a joke on why Zamasu has no reason to choose Goku instead of Vegeta or Hit. Yeah I get it ningens suck for using the power of the God's but unless Zamasu just happened to open a random video and see Goku (which would be a little bit silly and way underneath Toyo's story telling skills) I see no reason why Zamasu wants Goku's body.
Maybe Goku's video had more views and Godtube was promoting it? Maybe Zamasu has a drama channel "check ningens use the power of gods ".
I would like to see if Zamasu has actually a large sub fanBase or he is like a 20 sub channel that tries to get views from ningen drama

[HeroR]

That is a good point, but I always handwaved it as "They enjoy their suffering enough to want to do it themselves". At least Black seemed to.

Manga Black is just a moron though.

It was stated in the anime why Black did what he did. He sees it as his job as a god to wipe out the gods' mistake. That is why he took Goku's body, not only for power, but to act as an eternal reminder of mortal's sins and the gods' failure. He calls it his duty as a god. Basically, the multiverse have to be cleansed by the gods' hands.

[TheMikado]

So Zamasu hates Goku for making more views than him in Godtube?
Well maybe he should stop making reaction videos on tournament battles.
I think the anime handled it way better but we will see.

If I didn't know any better I would assume the original outline doesn't specifically say why Zamasu cares about Goku at all or at least Blacks origins.

Did the original outline say
"Zamasu wishes for Gokus body because of reasons...

I updated my comment you can check it but my intend was to make a joke on why Zamasu has no reason to choose Goku instead of Vegeta or Hit. Yeah I get it ningens suck for using the power of the God's but unless Zamasu just happened to open a random video and see Goku (which would be a little bit silly and way underneath Toyo's story telling skills) I see no reason why Zamasu wants Goku's body.
Maybe Goku's video had more views and Godtube was promoting it? Maybe Zamasu has a drama channel "check ningens use the power of gods "

He defeated boo which a Kaioshin couldn't handle and technically was the strongest fighter in terms of raw power in the field at the time. Hit was technique and Vegeta was at like 10% of SSB power against hit. That said the origin is still awful and it looks like Toei may have added to the origin to raise the stakes. It's possible the outline of the origin was just incredibly bad or even non existent.

[Doctor.]

It's pretty stupid that Zamasu switched bodies with Goku in the manga. In the anime it makes perfect sense. In the manga, why not Hit, Vegeta, the Gods of Destruction or their Angels?

[TheMikado]

It's pretty stupid that Zamasu switched bodies with Goku in the manga. In the anime it makes perfect sense. In the manga, why not Hit, Vegeta, the Gods of Destruction or their Angels?

To make that happen they had to introduce a nonsensical time paradox that doesn't exist in the manga and probably wasn't part of the outline. I understand why they did it but both media had to sacrifice something to make the plot points connect which reflects poorly on the original outline.

[Mazingerdestro]

If I didn't know any better I would assume the original outline doesn't specifically say why Zamasu cares about Goku at all or at least Blacks origins.

Did the original outline say
"Zamasu wishes for Gokus body because of reasons...

I updated my comment you can check it but my intend was to make a joke on why Zamasu has no reason to choose Goku instead of Vegeta or Hit. Yeah I get it ningens suck for using the power of the God's but unless Zamasu just happened to open a random video and see Goku (which would be a little bit silly and way underneath Toyo's story telling skills) I see no reason why Zamasu wants Goku's body.
Maybe Goku's video had more views and Godtube was promoting it? Maybe Zamasu has a drama channel "check ningens use the power of gods "

He defeated boo which a Kaioshin couldn't handle and technically was the strongest fighter in terms of raw power in the field at the time. Hit was technique and Vegeta was at like 10% of SSB power against hit. That said the origin is still awful and it looks like Toei may have added to the origin to raise the stakes. It's possible the outline of the origin was just incredibly bad or even non existent.

Yeah I don't think Toriyama said something beyond "Zamasu hates ningens deal with it Toyotaro my boy" and Toyotaro was like "but sensei......".
I don't hate the Toei origin. In Toei Black was basically a choice of the best fighter+some annoyance from Godtube.
Present Zamasu had no effect to black. He only appeared to show us that deep down Zamasu is bad.
However, I think the scene with Zamasu (future) hugging black was an 11/10 presentation of Zamasu and his ningen racism.
"I killed your master and I want to destroy humanity"
"I actually like that"
It makes Zamasu a real monster.

On the contrary before that I had hopes that present Zamasu would defeat Black proving that "I am not a killer and I am not you" plot point. Instead Toei chose to say "Nope Zamasu is a monster"

[Esfír Dedragón]

While I'm glad Toyotaro decided to make Zamasu's issue with Goku less paradoxical, it still doesn't coherently explain Black's existence that well.
But, whatever.
>Insert your own elastic head canon<

[Basako]

I've seen the complete manga in Youtube, more or less. I hope to see the manga not in a video soon, I don't like watching it like that.

So the paradox problem is solved, as we expected. The first fight between Goku and Zamasu had to be replaced with Kibito, but if that solves the paradox, I totally go with it. Also, nice to see a fight that is not about Goku for once. Well done, Toyotaro!

We can see Zamasu making questions to Zuno, probably to lokate the super dragon balls. His plan is going forward, he got to do it once, as we know he got Goku's body and escaped to the other timeline. It will be in the next chapter but we are already seeing Beerus and Whis going to see Gowasu, without Goku. Let's see what they do with Zamasu, probably kill him like in the anime. This means, if it's not a different timeline, which almost sure it's not, what is happening since Trunks arrived is that it is been overwritten, that doesn't mean what happened before didn't happen, it did.

The other team goes to Trunks's timeline. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, no Bulma. I think it's fine, we don't need her there. So Goku and Vegeta are going to face Black first. We'll see how the power levels are handled. The Zamasu from there has to appear yet. We'll see what happens with Trunks's "transformation". I wish they had made the SSG ritual for him, but that's already discarded.

Waiting for the traductions, but if he it's gonna be saying that Goku has never kissed Chichi, like they implied in the anime, I don't like it at all. What's a kiss if he has fucked his wife, at least to conceive Gohan and Goten. We'll see.

I want to see battles, but it was not a bad chapter regarding to storytelling, I wouldn't take out anything. The visit to Zeno had to be told, it had to be explained how Whis and Beerus get to know that Zamasu is Black so they go to U10 and they finally get in front of Black, ready to fight. By the way, Goku didn't forget the senzu beans, good one.

My predictions:

There won't be any retreat to Goku's timeline, all will happen in the same travel. That means no Mafuba, oh, that was handled very badly in the anime, just saying. Gowasu and Shin will go to help, that's almost a fact, thanks to the picture where they are seen on a motorbike. I have doubts, but I think we'll see Vegetto and the same "retcon" about the time limit for mortals. No Yajirobe, I may prefer the anime for that, although he has done nothing, Scratch does the same role. And much better fighting choreographies and less bullshit like clones appearing from a hole in the sky or half of merged Zamasu's body melting and turning purple.

[HeroR]

I've seen the complete manga in Youtube, more or less. I hope to see the manga not in a video soon, I don't like watching it like that.

So the paradox problem is solved, as we expected. The first fight between Goku and Zamasu had to be replaced with Kibito, but if that solves the paradox, I totally go with it. Also, nice to see a fight that is not about Goku for once. Well done, Toyotaro!

We can see Zamasu making questions to Zuno, probably to lokate the super dragon balls. His plan is going forward, he got to do it once, as we know he got Goku's body and escaped to the other timeline. It will be in the next chapter but we are already seeing Beerus and Whis going to see Gowasu, without Goku. Let's see what they do with Zamasu, probably kill him like in the anime. This means, if it's not a different timeline, which almost sure it's not, what is happening since Trunks arrived is that it is been overwritten, that doesn't mean what happened before didn't happen, it did.

The other team goes to Trunks's timeline. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks, no Bulma. I think it's fine, we don't need her there. So Goku and Vegeta are going to face Black first. We'll see how the power levels are handled. The Zamasu from there has to appear yet. We'll see what happens with Trunks's "transformation". I wish they had made the SSG ritual for him, but that's already discarded.

Waiting for the traductions, but if he it's gonna be saying that Goku has never kissed Chichi, like they implied in the anime, I don't like it at all. What's a kiss if he has fucked his wife, at least to conceive Gohan and Goten. We'll see.

I want to see battles, but it was not a bad chapter regarding to storytelling, I wouldn't take out anything. The visit to Zeno had to be told, it had to be explained how Whis and Beerus get to know that Zamasu is Black so they go to U10 and they finally get in front of Black, ready to fight. By the way, Goku didn't forget the senzu beans, good one.

My predictions:

There won't be any retreat to Goku's timeline, all will happen in the same travel. That means no Mafuba, oh, that was handled very badly in the anime, just saying. Gowasu and Shin will go to help, that's almost a fact, thanks to the picture where they are seen on a motorbike. I have doubts, but I think we'll see Vegetto and the same "retcon" about the time limit for mortals. No Yajirobe, I may prefer the anime for that, although he has done nothing, Scratch does the same role. And much better fighting choreographies and less bullshit like clones appearing from a hole in the sky or half of merged Zamasu's body melting and turning purple.

Bulma went with them.

[Lord Beerus]

So what I've gathered from the latest chapter is this:
- Goku Black is far less pragmatic and even acts like a outright idiot
- The "Goku's never kissed" scenario is less of a gag, due there being no real punchline like in the anime
- Goku Black is more cowardly and less blood knight-ish
- Zamasu has practically zero motivation for having resentment towards Goku, which of course lead to his downwards spiral into evil and hatred for all morals and is the foundation for his entire development and characterisation.
- The time/bootstrap paradox is still a thing

Until I read a legitimate translation of chapter, this all sounds at the moment very disappointing and far inferior to how the events transpired in the anime.

[Doctor.]

- The time/bootstrap paradox is still a thing

Wait, how? I thought the manga fixed this. Black's creation is independent on whether or not Trunks comes back in time and it's because Trunks comes back in time that Zamasu is actually gonna die and Black won't be created in "our" timeline.

[phattangent]

The time/bootstrap paradox is still a thing

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why this plot point matters? Doesn't the 時の指輪 / Toki no Yubiwa / Time Ring resolve this paradox?