"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:06 pm

emperior wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:31 pm Also, it’s not clear if someone like Granolah could now wish for immortality. I doubt he could.
Sure would help if the story gave enough of a shit to explain the basics of these things, no?

Say what you will about Toriyama's consistency in writing, but whenever he introduced new elements, he made sure to explain why these things are happening and why they hadn't happened before. A lot of the time it's sloppy, but if you just accepted it you'd be in for a good time.

This is just lame.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:49 pm

theherodjl wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:04 pm Maybe Gas is, Toribot forbid, a fallen/resurrected-from-erasure Angel?
For Kami-Samas sake I hope he isn’t an incarnation of Buu.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:23 pm

theherodjl wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:04 pm Elec actually said that Gas might've won against post-wish Granolah had they fought, a statement that ought to be bullshit given that Granolah wished to be the strongest fighter in the universe
Gas most likely has way more fighting experience, and we've seen that current Granolah can still be countered with some tricks as Vegeta proved. If by any chance the youngest Heeter is SSB+ tier or has some hax abilities, then he could have a shot at winning.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:06 pm
emperior wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:31 pm Also, it’s not clear if someone like Granolah could now wish for immortality. I doubt he could.
Sure would help if the story gave enough of a shit to explain the basics of these things, no?

Say what you will about Toriyama's consistency in writing, but whenever he introduced new elements, he made sure to explain why these things are happening and why they hadn't happened before. A lot of the time it's sloppy, but if you just accepted it you'd be in for a good time.

This is just lame.
Look man, I've sympathised with some of your takes, but with this arc it feels like you're very preoccupied with criticising the story based on your own assumptions of where you believe the story is going to go and looking at things with foresight, as though they've already been set in stone. Like earlier you talked about the last two fights having no lasting consequences in the story. Unless you're clairvoyant, you can't know that for certain yet. Meanwhile, Granola's wish seems to be living rent-free in your head.

It's likely that the Dragons cannot contravene a wish already made, or at the very least, one Dragon cannot reverse the wish of another (I get the feeling Monaito's gonna cop it so Toronbo would be put out of the picture too). It's well known that arbitrary rule list for wish-granting is longer in this comic is than the Great Wall of China. Yes, there's Super Shenron, but considering the Super DBs are the size of planets, usually spread across multiple universes and require the language of the Gods, it's unlikely Granola will get his hands on them, but we'll see. In time, the explanations you seek may spring up when they become relevant. I'd rather that than more stilted exposition than we already have.

To me, the stakes already felt pretty definitive. Here's unlimited power, here's the cost, no turning back, end of. As to why it's never happened before, most previous antagonists preferred immortality or other goals, and were usually arrogant enough to believe their own natural strength was enough. Freeza was already the strongest in the universe as far as he knew. Same applies for most of 'em. Granola needing the strength to take down Freeza was his whole motivation.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:00 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pm Look man, I've sympathised with some of your takes, but with this arc it feels like you're very preoccupied with criticising the story based on your own assumptions of where you believe the story is going to go and looking at things with foresight, as though they've already been set in stone.Like earlier you talked about the last two fights having no lasting consequences in the story. Unless you're clairvoyant, you can't know that for certain yet.


That's not how criticism works. If you can only criticize things at the end, then nobody should be able to criticize anything at all. You know why? Because at any point, more can be added. You wanna criticize a film? How dare you. In 20 years the director plans to make a sequel!

I also make a point to always put in the caveats: "At present moment," "As currently presented," "As things are" etc. I have respect for Toyotaro's storytelling, so I'm leaving it open for him to do something to make this all make sense, but seeing as no character has brought up any of these details, it's not looking like he will.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pmTo me, the stakes already felt pretty definitive. Here's unlimited power, here's the cost, no turning back, end of.
Yes, contemporary animes and mangas love to use the "I will trade my lifespan for more power" (Bleach, naruto, one pieces; you name it, they've done it), but it means nothing. Unless the story goes long enough for the character to keel over and die from giving up something as nebulous as lifespan, then it's a toothless cost. It sounds grandiose, which is why writers love to do it, but it means nothing. Granolah dying in 3 years means jack shit. If the cost was "You'll die if you use too much of your power," then it becomes something that actually adds tension because it would have actual interaction with the plot. But "you'll die 3 years later" means nothing he does now matters to that, and at best we'll get a timeskip where we see him die. Okay? Worth it? Lol.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pmAs to why it's never happened before, most previous antagonists preferred immortality or other goals, and were usually arrogant enough to believe their own natural strength was enough. Freeza was already the strongest in the universe as far as he knew. Same applies for most of 'em.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=39240#p1702917

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.
A user then gave a multitude of good ways the story could clear this up, and all are relatively quick and easy, but Toyotaro has neglected to explain anything:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=39260#p1703049

A few things:

-We don't know if Shenlong or Porunga can grant exchange wishes like Toronbo.

-Shenlong cannot revive people who die of natural causes. Presumably, even if your lifespan is shortened by a wish, this would count as dying of old age.

-I guess Super Shenlong could do it, but he could also presumably grant a wish to be 100 quintillion times stronger than Jiren, so there's that.

-Even if dying from this wish wasn't considered natural causes, we don't know if a dragon can unwish the actions of another dragon. I would presume not, with the exception of Super Shenlong.

-Shenlong cannot grant the same wish twice, so worst case scenario - and I agree it would be bad - this could only happen once with Shenlong and presumably once with Porunga.

-I agree that Goku and Vegeta would be willing to do it in a pinch, but that would be very difficult.

-As you said, there may be more to it. I'm still expecting Granolla's power to increase if Goku/etc. improves during battle, thus further diminishing Granolla's lifespan.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:24 pm

TKA wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:00 pm
That's not how criticism works. If you can only criticize things at the end, then nobody should be able to criticize anything at all. You know why? Because at any point, more can be added. You wanna criticize a film? How dare you. In 20 years the director plans to make a sequel!

I also make a point to always put in the caveats: "At present moment," "As currently presented," "As things are" etc. I have respect for Toyotaro's storytelling, so I'm leaving it open for him to do something to make this all make sense, but seeing as no character has brought up any of these details, it's not looking like he will.
That's not what I'm saying. It's fine to criticise things as they happen, but to me it makes less sense to criticise the hypothetical future direction of a serialised story arc, especially when we don't have the full context for everything yet. Not just Granola's fate or the results of battles, but stuff like Gas's mystery power or the Heeters' questions to Zuno are all up in the air right now. There's speculation then there's yelling at clouds. Put it this way, would you be angry if a murder mystery comic didn't meticulously explain every possible plot point within the first few pages?

Ultimately, it's not so different to when you see people freaking out over chapter drafts before the full context of what's happening is revealed.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pmTo me, the stakes already felt pretty definitive. Here's unlimited power, here's the cost, no turning back, end of.
Yes, contemporary animes and mangas love to use the "I will trade my lifespan for more power" (Bleach, naruto, one pieces; you name it, they've done it), but it means nothing. Unless the story goes long enough for the character to keel over and die from giving up something as nebulous as lifespan, then it's a toothless cost. It sounds grandiose, which is why writers love to do it, but it means nothing. Granolah dying in 3 years means jack shit. If the cost was "You'll die if you use too much of your power," then it becomes something that actually adds tension because it would have actual interaction with the plot. But "you'll die 3 years later" means nothing he does now matters to that, and at best we'll get a timeskip where we see him die. Okay? Worth it? Lol.
I agree that it's usually a trite stake to implement, but I'd like that best case scenario if it's executed well.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:39 pmAs to why it's never happened before, most previous antagonists preferred immortality or other goals, and were usually arrogant enough to believe their own natural strength was enough. Freeza was already the strongest in the universe as far as he knew. Same applies for most of 'em.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=39240#p1702917

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.
A user then gave a multitude of good ways the story could clear this up, and all are relatively quick and easy, but Toyotaro has neglected to explain anything:
Yet.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:54 pm

I think this coming chapter, will be twist where Toyatoro reveals the secret of Granolahs techniques. We basically got implied confirmation of Hakai for Granolah, and Goku referencing Moro technique. It's time for Granolah to go full power and be pushed into activating the best technique he got from the wish. Ultra Instinct!

With Ultra Instinct Granolah it should be clear that the wish is THAT dangerous if it gives you the god techniques. It sets up the Heeters and possibly Frieza easily.

I don't expect Vegeta to beat a Ultra Instinct Granolah imo.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Wed Jul 28, 2021 9:34 pm

jd55513 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:54 pm I think this coming chapter, will be twist where Toyatoro reveals the secret of Granolahs techniques. We basically got implied confirmation of Hakai for Granolah, and Goku referencing Moro technique. It's time for Granolah to go full power and be pushed into activating the best technique he got from the wish. Ultra Instinct!

With Ultra Instinct Granolah it should be clear that the wish is THAT dangerous if it gives you the god techniques. It sets up the Heeters and possibly Frieza easily.

I don't expect Vegeta to beat a Ultra Instinct Granolah imo.
To Be Honest I didn't see him getting this far. Sky's the limit now

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:11 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:24 pm Ultimately, it's not so different to when you see people freaking out over chapter drafts before the full context of what's happening is revealed.
I don't know about this forum, but during the Moro saga on other social media several people were freaking out because Merus seemed to be too strong for a mere Galactic Patrolman (arguing that he should have defeated Freeza before or saying he was a Gary Stu) and we know how it turned out.

Not that I think Granola's wish is that big of a deal anyway. Most villains who used or wanted to use it either didn't had such a large lifespan to benefit from, or had no interest in this particular wish because they trusted enough in their power, or for other factors (like Zamasu, who had his own whims about mortals and Goku). Granola simply had big enough potential (plus big lifespan) to become the strongest at that moment.

The only thing that I thinkin should be addressed is whether or not Granola can somehow reverse this wish. But at the moment he has no idea that there are other Dragon Balls anyway (to even contemplate making another wish), and the Super Dragon Balls (the only ones without limitations) are out of the question for him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by goku the krump dancer » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:31 am

I wonder if Granolah's remaining 3 year life span will somehow spill over into the upcoming movie seeing as though there's finally going to be a noticeable time-skip.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:31 am I wonder if Granolah's remaining 3 year life span will somehow spill over into the upcoming movie seeing as though there's finally going to be a noticeable time-skip.
We haven't seen Broly or Freeza since the Broly movie, or Merus since Moro, so we probably won't see Granolah in the movie either, considering Toriyama started writing the new movie during DBSBroly days. Though they might do a cheap one and use a wish from either of the balls to fix Granolah.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:10 am

TKA wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:06 pm
emperior wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:31 pm Also, it’s not clear if someone like Granolah could now wish for immortality. I doubt he could.
Sure would help if the story gave enough of a shit to explain the basics of these things, no?

Say what you will about Toriyama's consistency in writing, but whenever he introduced new elements, he made sure to explain why these things are happening and why they hadn't happened before. A lot of the time it's sloppy, but if you just accepted it you'd be in for a good time.

This is just lame.
I would like more consistency too, but until the arc is over, I won’t rule out the possibility that all of this will be addressed.

Besides, Dragon Ball characters are usually proud martial artists so it wouldn’t make much sense for them to wish for more strength, especially if it means having to give away basically all of their lifespan in exchange for it. It is also why they didn’t just ask Shenron for immortality before the Saiyans arrived.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:03 am

Immortality in the Saiyan arc means nothing if you’re trying to protect others.

And as I said in the posts I linked to from months ago, Goku and Vegeta have grown enough as characters that they’re willing to put their martial arts pride aside and do what’s necessary when push comes to shove.

But see, you’re doing more to try to explain this than the story is doing.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:52 am

Gas is probably just a pretty strong dude with enough of a chip on his shoulder to make the same wish Granolah did and get more mileage out of it.

Obviously there’s backstory we’re yet to get, but I don’t think it’s going to be, like, shocking-secret-origin backstory; just more insight into his hangups and motivations.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:06 am

Marz wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:11 pm I don't know about this forum, but during the Moro saga on other social media several people were freaking out because Merus seemed to be too strong for a mere Galactic Patrolman (arguing that he should have defeated Freeza before or saying he was a Gary Stu) and we know how it turned out.
Oh yes, we always got it just as bad on that front. Nothing's really changed.

The outrage against Merus is a perfect example. If there's two things this side of the fandom regularly demonstrates as lacking, it's patience and imagination.
Not that I think Granola's wish is that big of a deal anyway. Most villains who used or wanted to use it either didn't had such a large lifespan to benefit from, or had no interest in this particular wish because they trusted enough in their power, or for other factors (like Zamasu, who had his own whims about mortals and Goku). Granola simply had big enough potential (plus big lifespan) to become the strongest at that moment.

The only thing that I thinkin should be addressed is whether or not Granola can somehow reverse this wish. But at the moment he has no idea that there are other Dragon Balls anyway (to even contemplate making another wish), and the Super Dragon Balls (the only ones without limitations) are out of the question for him.
Yeah, I was gonna say, the only one who had the motivation to wish to be the strongest was probably Zamasu, but that arc had to contrive a way for an evil Goku to appear, so it's like whatever. He had his reasonings for doing that, at least. Future Zamasu's wish for immortality also worked out well enough for him. I also believe that Granola's conveniently long lifespan may have played a role in him being able to trade his years for power. Everything else you said is spot on. :)

RE: The heroes not wishing for ultimate power. Beyond the honour-bound issues I think they'd definitely take with it, Vegeta lays out in this last chapter why it's not a good idea: you can wish to be the strongest at one moment in time, but as soon as someone surpasses you, it's history. Further, wielding power that you haven't trained to master is no good. Goku and Vegeta have trained themselves up to a godly level and have the combat experience to wield their techniques to full capacity. Granola lacks that. He's a Lvl.1 gangster suddenly given the power of a Lvl.100 mob boss.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marz » Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:42 am

mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:45 am We haven't seen Broly or Freeza since the Broly movie, or Merus since Moro, so we probably won't see Granolah in the movie either, considering Toriyama started writing the new movie during DBSBroly days. Though they might do a cheap one and use a wish from either of the balls to fix Granolah.
The advantage of this is that Toriyama finished writing Granola after he started writing DBS Super Hero (and when there was still more than 1 year left for the movie's release). So it's supposed to be easier to connect the two stories or introduce things he already intends to use in the new movie, changing something in the script if necessary. But I don't think Granola will appear in the new movie, at best a quick recap like what we saw in DBS Broly
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:06 am RE: The heroes not wishing for ultimate power. Beyond the honour-bound issues I think they'd definitely take with it, Vegeta lays out in this last chapter why it's not a good idea: you can wish to be the strongest at one moment in time, but as soon as someone surpasses you, it's history.
Plus wishing for something like that would mean sacrificing part of their lives, which I doubt would be something that would interest them as they can just get much stronger than that by training normally without it negatively affecting them. Granola was a specific case as he was weak and wanted a quick solution without caring about training or how to handle this power (or even about his own life)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Baggins » Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:41 pm

Re: Wish talk:

There's a reason Vegeta's intended wish back on Namek wasn't to become the universe's strongest, despite wanting to overthrow and eventually outmatch a tyrant that he knew was far beyond his scope. There's a reason Goku was already extremely reluctant to do the God ritual, despite Shenron telling him it's totally temporary and obviously nowhere close to the same permanent cheat code that Granolah's wish is.

If you understand these characters, then in my opinion, the story doesn't need to "explain" why they wouldn't have gone the same route; it should be readily apparent. The very idea is unthinkable to them. Despite that, it was already explained in this chapter.

As LoganForkHands mentioned, we don't need more stilted exposition the moment something potentially controversial happens. That's a big no-no and happened more times in the Moro arc than I care to count.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:05 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:41 pm Re: Wish talk:

There's a reason Vegeta's intended wish back on Namek wasn't to become the universe's strongest, despite wanting to overthrow and eventually outmatch a tyrant that he knew was far beyond his scope. There's a reason Goku was already extremely reluctant to do the God ritual, despite Shenron telling him it's totally temporary and obviously nowhere close to the same permanent cheat code that Granolah's wish is.

If you understand these characters, I don't think the story needs to "explain" why they wouldn't have gone the same route; it should be readily apparent. The very idea is unthinkable to them. Despite that, it was already explained in this chapter.

As LoganForkHands mentioned, we don't need more stilted exposition the moment something potentially controversial happens. That's a big no-no and happened more times in the Moro arc than I care to count.
Goku Specifically Would Never do that in a million years unless he had absoltuley no other option. This would be the absolute last thing he would do.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:37 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:05 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:41 pm Re: Wish talk:

There's a reason Vegeta's intended wish back on Namek wasn't to become the universe's strongest, despite wanting to overthrow and eventually outmatch a tyrant that he knew was far beyond his scope. There's a reason Goku was already extremely reluctant to do the God ritual, despite Shenron telling him it's totally temporary and obviously nowhere close to the same permanent cheat code that Granolah's wish is.

If you understand these characters, I don't think the story needs to "explain" why they wouldn't have gone the same route; it should be readily apparent. The very idea is unthinkable to them. Despite that, it was already explained in this chapter.

As LoganForkHands mentioned, we don't need more stilted exposition the moment something potentially controversial happens. That's a big no-no and happened more times in the Moro arc than I care to count.
Goku Specifically Would Never do that in a million years unless he had absoltuley no other option. This would be the absolute last thing he would do.

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I believe Goku would rather die in battle anyways, than win through such a method and having to live the rest of his shortened life with all the power he could ever get and no room to improve more. So he probably wouldn’t do it even if it was the only option left.

Vegeta too would probably not do it nowadays. Early Buu arc Vegeta would, though.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:24 pm

Even without further exposition, there's one thing we know for sure about the wish, and that's that Toronbo's unique characteristic of being able to barter for the right conditions to grant the wish is the key thing that made it possible in the first place.

Shenron never said 'I can't destroy the Saiyans, but if you agree to use up all Earth's ki so that the whole planet dies next year, I can use that to kill the Saiyans', and Porunga never said 'I can't revive all four of your friends, just one, but if you three give me your lives in exchange, I can do the extras'; they just said Nope. While it isn't outright stated that they wouldn't be able to grant this wish if someone tried to make it, the story context heavily implies that such a thing would be ruled out by them if anybody tried it. It seems only Toronbo (or else Super Shenron) can grant such an open-ended wish. Moreover, the issue the story is foregrounding isn't the cost to Granolah in having his lifespan shortened; it's that it's a foolish, short-sighted wish made for the wrong reasons, which will cause turmoil. We have yet to see the full outworking of that particular message.

Dragon Ball Super runs with the message, in just about every single one of its arcs, that there are no real shortcuts to becoming truly strong, and one should accept no substitutes for hard work - Granolah's wish is just the series' latest and most in-your-face way of presenting the reader with that principle. It may be a tad artless, but it isn't senseless.

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