"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[shadowfox87]

...because the movie dictates that Goku was born 41 years ago? If we were 6 years removed from the Buu arc then Goku would be 40 years old and not 41, contradicting the movie.

Goku was not born 41 years ago nor does the movie say that he was. Where are you getting this from? The 41 years ago is when Planet Vegeta was destroyed. Goku was in his incubator at that time, 3 years old. Where are you getting these numbers for Goku's age anyways? According to herms Age Guide, Goku is 39 years old at Age 776: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10276&p=254399

I lost track of what exactly is the contradiction you're trying to say is a contradiction. Is it Goku's age or Bra's age? I don't get it. The Goku not visiting for Bulma for 5 years is already solved as long as it's Age 780 which it is according to what I've shown you above.

[RandomGuy96]

I just remembered something. Buu fell asleep at the start of the ToP arc and it was stated he wouldn't awaken for two months. He's still asleep as of the latest chapter. Wouldn't that mean the Universe Survival arc, Broly arc, and El Cabro Demoníaco arc happen at most a few weeks from each other?

[shadowfox87]

I just remembered something. Buu fell asleep at the start of the ToP arc and it was stated he wouldn't awaken for two months. He's still asleep as of the latest chapter. Wouldn't that mean the Universe Survival arc, Broly arc, and El Cabro Demoníaco arc happen at most a few weeks from each other?

Remember that ToP was 48 mins. So yes, it makes sense that not even a month has passed between all 3.

[PFM18]

...because the movie dictates that Goku was born 41 years ago? If we were 6 years removed from the Buu arc then Goku would be 40 years old and not 41, contradicting the movie.

Goku was not born 41 years ago nor does the movie say that he was. Where are you getting this from? The 41 years ago is when Planet Vegeta was destroyed. Goku was in his incubator at that time, 3 years old. Where are you getting these numbers for Goku's age anyways? According to herms Age Guide, Goku is 39 years old at Age 776: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10276&p=254399

I lost track of what exactly is the contradiction you're trying to say is a contradiction. Is it Goku's age or Bra's age? I don't get it. The Goku not visiting for Bulma for 5 years is already solved as long as it's Age 780 which it is according to what I've shown you above.

I frankly don't really care what Herms said. You quote him as though he is an official source.

I was going by the old idea that he was born at the same time as Planet Vegeta's destruction or Minus. I forgot we were going by Minus and him being a toddler at the time. If it said PLanet Vegeta was destroyed 41 years ago, and Goku was an infant when it exploded, then he would have to be 41 for that to make sense. If Goku was born 41 years ago, right around the time Planet Vegeta was destroyed, then there would HAVE to be a 7 year gap between the Buu arc and the ToP for that to work. But like I said, none of this works with Goku being a toddler like he was in Minus during Planet Vegeta's destruction.

The contradiction is still Bra's age. Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years and yet Bra is 3 or 4. Goku saw her when Bra was born, so this is a contradiction.

[prince212]

The contradiction is still Bra's age. Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years and yet Bra is 3 or 4. Goku saw her when Bra was born, so this is a contradiction.

Correct, I would say the contradiction is bulma not seeing goku in 5 years when they saw each other in the last chapter.....
This will never fit : Age 784, May - 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Pan is 4 years old. Goku hasn't visited Bulma for 5 years

[RandomGuy96]

I just remembered something. Buu fell asleep at the start of the ToP arc and it was stated he wouldn't awaken for two months. He's still asleep as of the latest chapter. Wouldn't that mean the Universe Survival arc, Broly arc, and El Cabro Demoníaco arc happen at most a few weeks from each other?

Remember that ToP was 48 mins. So yes, it makes sense that not even a month has passed between all 3.

Yes, but it also indicates that basically no time passed between arcs. They're really trying to jam everything possibly into this year.

[PFM18]

The contradiction is still Bra's age. Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years and yet Bra is 3 or 4. Goku saw her when Bra was born, so this is a contradiction.

Correct, I would say the contradiction is bulma not seeing goku in 5 years when they saw each other in the last chapter.....
This will never fit : Age 784, May - 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Pan is 4 years old. Goku hasn't visited Bulma for 5 years

Yeah, Bra is 3, Pan is 4 and Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years when she clearly has seen him several times in that 5-year time gap.

Not that it matters though, I think they should retcon EoZ anyway. Just do the same thing but while acknowledging Beerus/Whis and not framing Oob as being the reincarnation of this amazingly powerful enemy, because he really isn't within the scope of DBS. It doesn't feel right re-watching it where Beerus/Whis aren't there or are even mentioned and the aforementioned attitude towards Oob.

[shadowfox87]

I frankly don't really care what Herms said. You quote him as though he is an official source.

I was going by the old idea that he was born at the same time as Planet Vegeta's destruction or Minus. I forgot we were going by Minus and him being a toddler at the time. If it said PLanet Vegeta was destroyed 41 years ago, and Goku was an infant when it exploded, then he would have to be 41 for that to make sense. If Goku was born 41 years ago, right around the time Planet Vegeta was destroyed, then there would HAVE to be a 7 year gap between the Buu arc and the ToP for that to work. But like I said, none of this works with Goku being a toddler like he was in Minus during Planet Vegeta's destruction.

The contradiction is still Bra's age. Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years and yet Bra is 3 or 4. Goku saw her when Bra was born, so this is a contradiction.

I never stated herms as an official source. I referenced his thread which has translations from official sources. Herms only translates and organizes the information.

I repeat, Goku is 3 years old when Planet Vegeta exploded, so of course he would not be 41 years old. He was not born 41 years ago. Nowhere in Minus or the movie does it state that. There is a 6 year gap between Buu Arc and ToP. All of this is consistent so I'm not sure exactly what you are saying is a contradiction with regards to Goku's age. Can you reference or source where the numbers you are getting for Goku's age?

Where are you getting Bra's age from? Nowhere in the official DBZ manga does it state Bra's age at any point in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Only Pan's age is stated. In the Daizenshuu 7 timeline, Bra is born in Age 780. That is the source that I already referenced above. In Super, we know that this happens just prior to the ToP which is late Age 780. The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is during May of the year, so May, Age 780. Therefore, she would be 3 years old at the time of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

The last time Goku sees Bulma is not when Bra is born but most recently in the DBS Broly movie which is after Bra is born. Also, I will reiterate that Bulma did not say she "hasn't seen Goku in 5 years". The exact words are Goku hasn't "visited" Bulma in 5 years and this is still consistent given the fact that the last time Goku has seen Bulma is in Age 780, which is more than 4 years but not a full 5 years and hence, Goku can round up. At this time, Pan should be 4 and Bra should be 3. Only Pan's age is stated. All of this is still not a contradiction. It makes sense.

[prince212]

The contradiction is still Bra's age. Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years and yet Bra is 3 or 4. Goku saw her when Bra was born, so this is a contradiction.

Correct, I would say the contradiction is bulma not seeing goku in 5 years when they saw each other in the last chapter.....
This will never fit : Age 784, May - 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Pan is 4 years old. Goku hasn't visited Bulma for 5 years

Yeah, Bra is 3, Pan is 4 and Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years when she clearly has seen him several times in that 5-year time gap.

Not that it matters though, I think they should retcon EoZ anyway. Just do the same thing but while acknowledging Beerus/Whis and not framing Oob as being the reincarnation of this amazingly powerful enemy, because he really isn't within the scope of DBS. It doesn't feel right re-watching it where Beerus/Whis aren't there or are even mentioned and the aforementioned attitude towards Oob.

Not a big deal , but yeah I can’t feel now the interest in goku looking for a formidable rival in ubb , when he couldn’t defeat black goku , he didn’t put a dent on jiren , he had to fuse to beat broly, Beerus might be still stronger etc .... I just can’t see that . Like I said before ... super now is in a different timeline of eoz

[TKA]

Arguing over such specific details like a character's age when that kind of granular thing has never been consistent in dragonball seems so pedantic.

Wow, well this contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.

If you decided not to act so pompous, you would realize that this has very important repercussions in the series.

Brah, you're free to argue about whatever you want.

I'm also free to tell you it's so pedantic that it's ultimately pointless. Whether it's an error or it isn't, it's just another in a long list of timeline errors in Dragonball.

This just isn't the kind of thing Akira Toriyama has ever emphasized. The specific ages don't matter; the age ranges do.

[prince212]

Arguing over such specific details like a character's age when that kind of granular thing has never been consistent in dragonball ...
This just isn't the kind of thing Akira Toriyama has ever emphasized. The specific ages don't matter; the age ranges do.

That’s right .. the root of all this conversation i.m.o is ... if super thematic is consistent with E.o.Z , that’s totally debatable and something TOriyama and all the involved creators should and used to cared ..

[shadowfox87]

Yeah, Bra is 3, Pan is 4 and Bulma said that she hasn't seen Goku in 5 years when she clearly has seen him several times in that 5-year time gap.
Like I said before ... super now is in a different timeline of eoz

Even if a retcon happens, I bet you that Pan's age will not change - she will still be 4. Bra should also be 3 at the time of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. These ages are not the issue. The only thing that makes sense to retcon is Goku and Bulma's dialogue about the "5 years" but it's one line and makes no difference to me. If DBS continues past Age 780 and Goku sees Bulma again, then they will of course need to retcon that.

[PFM18]

I never stated herms as an official source. I referenced his thread which has translations from official sources. Herms only translates and organizes the information.

"As though he is an official source"

I repeat, Goku is 3 years old when Planet Vegeta exploded, so of course he would not be 41 years old. He was not born 41 years ago. Nowhere in Minus or the movie does it state that. There is a 6 year gap between Buu Arc and ToP. All of this is consistent so I'm not sure exactly what you are saying is a contradiction with regards to Goku's age. Can you reference or source where the numbers you are getting for Goku's age?

Dude, I literally already explained twice now that I thought that because I forgot that in Minus Goku was a toddler when Vegeta was destroyed and not an infant. If he was an infant like he was originally, then saying "Planet Vegeta was destroyed 41 years ago" and "Goku is 41 years old" would be synonymous because they would have happened at the same time. Again, I was just mistaken about remembering the specifics about Minus and that's why I said that.

Therefore, she would be 3 years old at the time of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai.

You went through all of that and you agree with me? Not sure what was the point of questioning my logic when you literally came to an identical conclusion.

At this time, Pan should be 4 and Bra should be 3

....and Goku saw Bulma 3 years prior during Bra's birth. 3 years, not 5 was the latest that they had seen each other based on that. Therefore, it is a contradiction. Even if we have things awkwardly laid out so that Bra is 3 and yet it has been 4 years apart from the ToP to EoZ, Goku has still seen Bulma in the last 5 years where as she didn't in the original version.

[shadowfox87]

If he was an infant like he was originally,

He was never an infant originally. All instances where it showed Goku as a baby were only in the anime not in the manga.

You went through all of that and you agree with me? Not sure what was the point of questioning my logic when you literally came to an identical conclusion.

I haven't agreed with you. I have told you what age Bra should be based on logical deduction. This deduction only comes if you agree that she was born in Age 780 which is the same time as the ToP and Broly arcs. Though it's not even a matter of debate given that the year of her birth was written long before DBS was already out. However, I'm still lost as to why you are even talking about Bra's age if her age is nowhere does it state Bra's age in the official DBZ manga.

....and Goku saw Bulma 3 years prior during Bra's birth. 3 years, not 5 was the latest that they had seen each other based on that. Therefore, it is a contradiction. Even if we have things awkwardly laid out so that Bra is 3 and yet it has been 4 years apart from the ToP to EoZ, Goku has still seen Bulma in the last 5 years where as she didn't in the original version.

Goku has seen Bulma last in Age 780 which is in the current arc of DBS. This has nothing to do with Bra's birth. You already know in the Broly movie that Goku sees Bulma. I don't understand what Bra has anything to do with it. The 28th Tenkaichi Budokai is in May, Age 784. That is more than 4 years but not a full 5 years. If however, DBS continues to Age 781 and Goku sees Bulma, then of course it would be a complete contradiction. If you saw your friend 4.5 years ago, will you say 4 or 5 years? Does it matter?

[SaiyanGod117]

Goku was an infant originally as said by Master Roshi and shown in the Bardock special that was canon. I don't know why people still try to deny this fact, when Toriyama assimilated it into the manga and said it in a interview.

[shadowfox87]

Goku was an infant originally as said by Master Roshi and shown in the Bardock special that was canon. I don't know why people still try to deny this fact, when Toriyama assimilated it into the manga and said it in a interview.

Did you just say Bardock special was canon? Show me the line in the DB manga where Kamesennin says Gohan found an infant. I want to check the original Japanese translation. Even if it's true, how is Gohan to know how old Goku even is or the age range for an infant? The standard accepted definition in pediatrics of a neonate is 0-28 days; infant is 28 days to 1 year; and toddler is 1-4 years. This is only because at 1 year, the milestone for walking is learned.
CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/childdevelop ... fants.html
WHO: https://www.who.int/infant-newborn/en/
If you found some random 3-year old kid who can stand and walk, but don't know the difference between an infant and a toddler / young child, are you going to really care? Gohan lives isolated in the middle of nowhere at Mt. Paozu. He barely interacts with other people.

[Lukmendes]

That still begs the question of why they didn’t just erase the universes again after 17 made his wish. If their whole goal was to get rid of the lesser universes because they thought there were too many to keep track of, why did they leave the universes alone after 17 wished them back? Even if we interpret 17’s wish as an act of defiance against these childish assholes, it comes across as hollow when you consider that there’s nothing stopping them from just wiping everything out again.

Sorry I missed this message.

If you noticed in the story, it was the Grand Priest who suggested the idea of erasing them. The Zenos just went 'Yeah that sounds like a good idea let's go with it!' And he was the one who told Shin that U7 got bumped up too. Not to perpetuate memes but the Grand Priest has a lot more influence over the universes than we are led to believe. So ultimately while 17 made the wish in defiance of the Zenos' grand order, it was the Grand Priest with whom he was at odds. And the Grand Priest was impressed with the kind of wish he made. So at the very least he's on their good side now if anything.

It's also worth noting that 17 asked Grand Priest to make that wish first, which he accepted, so it wasn't a "He made a wish he shouldn't have" kind of thing since Grand Priest could've just said "We're not making that wish, think of something else".

Does anyone else feel like Toriyama changed his mind halfway through the ToP? A big deal was made of the fact that Jiren was the one mortal who even the Gods of Destruction were powerless against, and how Goku needed to master the technique that was beyond the Destroyers to have a chance against him. When they finally clashed against each other, Beerus admitted in a bittersweet tone that Goku was incredible, seemingly accepting that he had been surpassed, with the anime version making this particularly clear when it had Goku and Jiren punching each other set to music where the singer screams about how even the gods are in awe. Then it has them stand up respectfully, acknowledging the fight.

But as of the latest arc, Goku claims he hasn't pulled off Ultra Instinct even once since Jiren knocked him out of it. He doesn't use it in the Broly movie either. And in both the Broly arc and the La Cabra arc, Beerus is still acting like the same smug prick and Goku is still chasing his tail. What was even the point of the ToP and Ultra Instinct if everything was going to be reset?

Beerus is that kid who changes the rules of the game everytime he starts to lose, in this case by just powering himself up, clearly

End of Z/28th Tenkaichi Budokai are thoroughly contradicted already so this wouldn't really change anything other than maybe "EoZ is MORE contradicted now!"

EoZ is only really contradicted when it comes to ages and dates, how old Bulma looks, Goten's, Trunks' and Maron's refusal to grow and how long it was between the last time Goku and Bulma met, don't think EoZ outright contradicted a character's status so far, so removing Boo would be odd.

End of Z/28th Tenkaichi Budokai are thoroughly contradicted already so this wouldn't really change anything other than maybe "EoZ is MORE contradicted now!"

Which contradiction are you referring to? The one where Goku says he hasn't seen Bulma for 5 years? That can still fit. It's Age 780 right now in Super. 780, 781, 782, 783, and 784 - that's 5 years. Since the Tenkaichi Budokai occurs in May, Goku may be simply counting the 5 months that have passed in the current year and rounding up. They can also just make it where they do the whole Goku is dumb and can't count or that Goku forgot a year since he's been training with Uub, time flew by. They can also just do a retcon.

Bulma also agrees it's been 5 years though, and Goku was there when Bra was born in Super, so it's been just 3 years if we count just that last meeting, so yeah, either Bra's age was retconned, or Goku's and Bulma's last meeting was.

How about... "10 years of peace"?

As far as I've seen, the manga only says it's been 10 years since Boo, doesn't specificaly say it was 10 years, though Piccolo saying he hasn't seen Goku that happy does imply that.

I just remembered something. Buu fell asleep at the start of the ToP arc and it was stated he wouldn't awaken for two months. He's still asleep as of the latest chapter. Wouldn't that mean the Universe Survival arc, Broly arc, and El Cabro Demoníaco arc happen at most a few weeks from each other?

"El Cabro Demoníaco" LOL.

Anyways, it's also possible this new arc happens a year after ToP, though that would be a contrived coincidence that the Galactic Patrol picked Boo just when he was sleeping, unless they knew about it.

Goku was an infant originally as said by Master Roshi and shown in the Bardock special that was canon. I don't know why people still try to deny this fact, when Toriyama assimilated it into the manga and said it in a interview.

Actualy, Goku was originaly a kid, since Roshi mentions Grandpa Gohan finding a kid, then when Raditz arrives it's a baby, then with Jaco/Minus it's a kid again, it's subtle, but the intent is clear

[shadowfox87]

Bulma also agrees it's been 5 years though, and Goku was there when Bra was born in Super, so it's been just 3 years if we count just that last meeting, so yeah, either Bra's age was retconned, or Goku's and Bulma's last meeting was.

Yea, so a lot of things people were saying were contradictions like the "10 years of peace", "Goku being a baby", "Pan's age", etc. have been cleared up. The only thing left here is the Goku not visiting Bulma for 5 years and Bulma agrees so it's not just due to Goku's miscounting. Goku was there even after Bra was born though, it would be still around the same month. The question is still, do you agree that it is Late Age 780 currently in DBS? Bra was stated to be born in Age 780 in the Daizenshuu 7 timeline. If it is, then if you count up to May, Age 784 - the time at which Goku meets Bulma again, that can be from anywhere from 3.4 years to 4.4 years depending on what month it is in Age 780 in Super. It's not a full 5 years no matter what. However, in the latter case, if it is a bit more than 4 years, Goku could round up. In any case, if it is retconned, then it can be changed to 4 years. However, the absence of Fat Buu in the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai would be a major contradiction.

[prince212]

No news about the promotional manga of broly ? It’s supposed to come beginning of December , I wonder who will draw it , looks it doesn’t fit in toyotaro agenda

[Xeztin]

No news about the promotional manga of broly ? It’s supposed to come beginning of December , I wonder who will draw it , looks it doesn’t fit in toyotaro agenda

I’m 99 percent sure its not Dragon Garow Lee. The authors of SD and SDBH seems too busy, I’d assume it will be Toyotaro or a newcomer. I think Broly became a thing in early 2017, I’d assume if it was Toyotaro that he already drew the special months ago ahead of time. He also said in the latest chapter it was a story for another time and drew promotional art. I took that as him saying he’d tell that story in december.