"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4631
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:50 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:22 am And I don't think it's a matter of Goku, using Ultra Instinct, being unable to avoid having his vital points hit, it's just that he apparently can't avoid Granolah's attacks...at all
Yeah. Granolah has the perfect ability to force Goku to upgrade Ultra Instinct. This is the kind of challenge he has to overcome at his current level. Probably a more refined Ultra Instinct would antecipate Granolah’s attacks.

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:04 pm

The retcon I don't like is how Hakai is suddenly UI level. Defeats the whole ongoing thread of DBS, with Goku reaching a form not even Beerus could master

User avatar
Super Murjin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:27 pm

I just hope and pray Goku doesn't get a brand new Ultra Instinct transformation like Ultra Instinct stage 2 or Super Ultra Instinct or Ultra Instinct with longer hair and purple spots on his chest. No more forms or transformations.

I hope the Ultra Instinct technique is something Goku will continue to use in his base, SSJ-SSJ3, SSG/SSB forms as well as being able to use the ultimate/trump form Ultra Instinct (silver hair). That form should be Goku's final stage that has a super high ceiling for power and improvement. As the popular saying goes "The sky is the limit"

On another note, Goku tried using the hakai way back in the Future Trunks Arc on Merged Zamasu. It was somewhat working, but it was later confirmed that Goku wouldn't be able to hakai an immortal being. This was confirmed later by Beerus and Whis in the manga near the conclusion of the arc. The hakai is not Goku's style as Ultra Instinct is not Vegeta's style when he attempted it in the TOP (anime).

Hakai for Vegeta may benefit him in the sense that his goal in a fight is to eliminate the opponent as opposed to Goku who is more or less just focusing on dodging and prolonging the fight. Vegeta would be more on the attack, when Goku would be more on the defensive.

Maybe Vegeta will injure Granolah's golden eye greatly handicapping him and his special focus abilities.

Hakai is the ultimate offensive technique (aside from ERASE). It may be possible even if a fighter is as weak as let's say Master Roshi, but is able to fully master hakai, assuming he wouldn't need to greatly increase his power level to G.O.D. levels , the hakai alone if landed, could defeat any enemy (unless they are of course immortal).

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:44 pm

I think Granolah has UI and Hakai!

User avatar
Super Murjin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:56 pm

If he does, i'm not a fan of him having those techniques.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:06 pm

Super Murjin wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:56 pm If he does, i'm not a fan of him having those techniques.
I don't know, that explosion he performed two chapters ago looked a lot like hakai...
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

User avatar
Super Murjin
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:22 pm

true .... i guess i don't like it how he would have access to godly techniques without actual training.
Like when Broly was super powerful in the film, at least he was powerful in his own way, and because he was a saiyan, all it took was the death of his father to trigger the super saiyan form to further increase his power. But with Granolah, he's not just super strong, but gets all of these forms without even knowing it. Unless the dragon is suggesting that Granolah would have met up with Beerus and Whis at some point in the future and would have learned hakai and UI ?! :crazy:

User avatar
Xeogran
I Live Here
Posts: 3056
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:04 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Xeogran » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:25 pm

Super Murjin wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:27 pm I just hope and pray Goku doesn't get a brand new Ultra Instinct transformation like Ultra Instinct stage 2 or Super Ultra Instinct or Ultra Instinct with longer hair and purple spots on his chest. No more forms or transformations.
He already got that big Astral Body last arc to finish off Planet Moro. I'd be surprised if he finishes off this arc in "ordinary" UI, considering the fighters here will be waaaay stronger than Moro could ever dream to be. The form already is to a bad start in this arc, seeing how it lost twice (against Whis and now against Granolah)

User avatar
Jack Bz
Regular
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:22 am And I don't think it's a matter of Goku, using Ultra Instinct, being unable to avoid having his vital points hit, it's just that he apparently can't avoid Granolah's attacks...at all
But...last chapter Goku literally was dodging all of Granolah's attacks, easily, until he went for Goku's vitals. Granolah didn't power up or anything beforehand, so the implication is that it is harder to dodge a precision attack going for your vitals than more regular attacks, despite what Whis of ultra instinct's strength being specifically avoiding vital blows.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:14 am
Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:32 amI also have a problem with not being able to avoid being hit in vital points being the weakness of ultra instinct that Toyo/Toriyama have come up with
I don't think this has been expressed as one of the weaknesses of Ultra Instinct. It is one of Goku's weaknesses as a biological creature, and the fact that Granolah is able to identify them and attack them successfully despite Ultra Instinct ("even a flawless fighter cannot hide his vital points") is one of Granolah's most significant strengths, fully in keeping with his introduction as a precision-based fighter, only amped to the nth degree.
I feel describing it as a weakness of ultra instinct is apt as I am referring to the fact that going for the vital points is what made Granolah manage to even hit Goku at all. A precision attack to a vital point is the way around its dodging ability, without increasing your speed or strength. I'm not referring to the fact that the vital points do extra damage based on Goku's biology.

I think the best explanation against my own argument is that when Whis said vitals and when Granolah said vitals, they are talking about completely different things. What Granolah meant is that Goku moving one way leaves him open in another way that Granolah has the special ability to see and capitalise on, and what Whis meant are inherent static weak points of the human body like the face etc.

(If I am honest, part of the problem I have with ultra instinct going forward is that I think they did too good of a job making it seem unbeatable previously)
Last edited by Jack Bz on Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 898
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:50 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:40 pmI feel describing it as a weakness of ultra instinct is apt as I am referring to the fact that going for the vital points is what made Granolah manage to even hit Goku at all. Accuracy to a weak point is the way around its dodging ability.
I don't think this is really a necessary conclusion - I think it's a more natural interpretation at this point to say that Granolah is capable of being so accurate when he really means to be, and he's so powerful in carrying it out when he gets serious, that Ultra Instinct is rendered kind of beside the point (at least at the level at which Goku can currently wield it).

It's not about accuracy to weak points specifically finding some loophole in Goku's abilities (which seems to be what you're saying, unless I've misinterpreted what you're getting at) - it's a case of Granolah's accuracy generally rendering them basically moot. And so it's not about Ultra Instinct having a weakness. It's about how crazy Granolah's capabilities are when he gets serious, compared to the level Goku's at.

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:20 pm

There are more spoilers and apparently Granolah does Moro lava energy attack thing .....
It seems Granolah did recieve all the techniques of the strongest.
He probably has UI, Hakai, spirit fission etc

User avatar
UpFromTheSkies
I Live Here
Posts: 2212
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:44 pm

OLKv3 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:04 pm The retcon I don't like is how Hakai is suddenly UI level. Defeats the whole ongoing thread of DBS, with Goku reaching a form not even Beerus could master
They're two completely different techniques that do different things, I don't think you can really say one is above the other. They are both difficult to learn and are used by God's, so I'd say they're on the same level, Beerus is just better at destruction than clearing his mind and letting his body take over, so Hakai is easier for him to master.

Kinokima
I Live Here
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:44 pm

I think we should come to the conclusion that Granolah can do everything.

I think Vegeta may have a way to defeat his eye and hence why he may be feeling confident. But Granolah will probably have something else up his sleeve he didn’t use in his fight with Goku. At least I am expecting something like that.

Needless to say I am not interested in the Granolah vs Vegeta fight at all. The series has tried to pretend one to many times that they will let Vegeta do anything and this is at the start of the arc so it’s more how badly will Vegeta lose ? lol

That being said I am interested in the interaction between Vegeta & Granolah.


Anyways even though I do think there is more to Vegeta’s last line I am frustrated by it and don’t like ending the chapter on that note.

User avatar
DiscountDabi
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:10 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 pm

jd55513 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:20 pm There are more spoilers and apparently Granolah does Moro lava energy attack thing .....
It seems Granolah did recieve all the techniques of the strongest.
He probably has UI, Hakai, spirit fission etc
Bro what?! I'ma need to see this

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:52 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 pm
jd55513 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:20 pm There are more spoilers and apparently Granolah does Moro lava energy attack thing .....
It seems Granolah did recieve all the techniques of the strongest.
He probably has UI, Hakai, spirit fission etc
Bro what?! I'ma need to see this
How do I post images on here?
I'll share them!
Also The Real Granolah does one shot MUI Goku, he didn't let his guard down, Granolah actually moved faster than UI(I think he has base UI at the moment) .

User avatar
OLKv3
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:39 pm

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:57 pm

Spoilers confirm Granolah doesn't have UI, since he's shocked and floored at seeing Goku use UI
He also couldn't beat it straight up, and had to wait till Goku's accuracy with it dropped.

User avatar
DiscountDabi
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 2:10 pm
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:16 pm

jd55513 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:52 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 pm
jd55513 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:20 pm There are more spoilers and apparently Granolah does Moro lava energy attack thing .....
It seems Granolah did recieve all the techniques of the strongest.
He probably has UI, Hakai, spirit fission etc
Bro what?! I'ma need to see this
How do I post images on here?
I'll share them!
Also The Real Granolah does one shot MUI Goku, he didn't let his guard down, Granolah actually moved faster than UI(I think he has base UI at the moment) .
Just put a link for the picture

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:49 pm

I probably never should have checked this thread in the weeklong period before the chapter's release. Spoiled like an idiot!
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:24 pm

DiscountDabi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:16 pm
jd55513 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:52 pm
DiscountDabi wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:56 pm

Bro what?! I'ma need to see this
How do I post images on here?
I'll share them!
Also The Real Granolah does one shot MUI Goku, he didn't let his guard down, Granolah actually moved faster than UI(I think he has base UI at the moment) .
Just put a link for the picture
How exactly? I have them saved on my phone from a discord leak?

jd55513
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:53 am
Contact:

Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by jd55513 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:25 pm

Actually I can send them to you, if you have Twitter it's easier

Post Reply