"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

That would be coherent with established lore. We already know that such a sort of mechanism exists, because the angels automatically "deactivated" after their respective Destroyer gods died (as was shown with Zamasu in the Future Trunks arc).

[LoganForkHands73]

There’s some real assumptions here being made saying the Grand Priest is somehow responsible for these rules. I seriously doubt it since he himself has to obey these same laws aswell most likely.

The way I took it is that when an Angel “breaks the code” no external being erases them (since they can’t be erased, they have absolute immortality), they simply self destruct... It’s part of their internal mathematical coding. It’s their nature! It’s reason itself that made it to be this way!

It basically goes something like this:

As an Angel, you are allowed to be all-powerful, all-skilled, all knowledgeable, etc etc. But on the other hand, there’s a great price to pay for it. You can’t use those powers on anyone else, otherwise you’ll simply disappear. That’s all about fairness. And mathematical balance.

I.e. You’re allowed to have all these literal otherworldly powers since you can’t use them anyways!

Because lets face it, if the Angels were all absolutely evil and this code didn’t exist, all other races throughout the Multiverse would be living in HELL throughout all eternity.

Yeah, I believe that's the case too. It's just hardwired into them that they absolutely cannot interfere outside of the "training" loophole. As morally shady as Daishinkan often appears, I highly doubt he'd do something like that to his own children, even if he does give them kind of a pony job as servants to spoiled-rotten destroyer deities. He presumably went to the effort to spare them from erasure during the Tournament of Power, probably by subtly manipulating Zeno.

It leads to an interesting question of what being designed the "Angel race" with these specific rules in mind. I mean, yeah, Daishinkan is the father of all other Angels, but he too is an Angel and he had to have come from somewhere.

And yeah, it's ultimately a good thing these rules are in place. If an Angel can develop a real conscience and compassion for mortals, one can just as easily become a monstrous force for evil just like Zamasu.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Why are people still speculating the Grand Priest will become a villain in the future? If the writers wanted him to be evil, they would have made him the villain of the ToP arc, since there were many scenes in which he acted in an ominous and downright creepy way (like when he smiled when the losing universes were erased).

How would you even fight someone like the Grand Priest anyway? He'd probably just kill you instantly. He probably has all sorts of abilities we haven't seen him use to kill anyone within the span of two seconds. He's one of the strongest fighters in the multiverse(likely the strongest fighter) fighting him would require an absurd amount of plot power and some jumps in logic just to make sure everybody isn't instantly curb-stomped.

I agree. He's extremely powerful, if I'm not mistaken in the ToP manga he even solo'd all 12 Destroyers using only his finger. He's amongst the five strongest fighters in the entire multiverse. He's not written to be defeatable. Not when he can do things like this:

Also, its likely the GP is keeping Zeno in line(somewhat). The GP is probably the only thing keeping Zeno from flat out going 'fuck it' and erasing the multiverse because he's bored. Zeno is a god with the brain of a child, and like Hearts said, "No one should wield that type of power". Who knows what would happen if the GP or his guards weren't there, Zeno would be free to do EVERYTHING. Zeno is an evil child who will do whatever he wants for his amusement, if his shady baby-sitter has to keep him in line, that might be for the best. Especially since there are TWO Zeno's, two deranged psycho childish gods that the Grand Priest has to look after.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Grand Priest. Even if he didn't approve of what Zeno said, what can he do? Zeno will just do whatever he wants unless he finds something his subjects say a good idea and thinks it'll entertain him. He's just trying to make sure Zeno is happy, or at least manageable so he doesn't erase everything.

While don't like admitting this, Zamasu was right about one thing. The god hierarchy sucks.

[SupremeKai25]

Also, its likely the GP is keeping Zeno in line(somewhat). The GP is probably the only thing keeping Zeno from flat out going 'fuck it' and erasing the multiverse because he's bored. Zeno is a god with the brain of a child, and like Hearts said, "No one should wield that type of power". Who knows what would happen if the GP or his guards weren't there, Zeno would be free to do EVERYTHING. Zeno is an evil child who will do whatever he wants for his amusement, if his shady baby-sitter has to keep him in line, that might be for the best. Especially since there are TWO Zeno's, two deranged psycho childish gods that the Grand Priest has to look after.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Grand Priest. Even if he didn't approve of what Zeno said, what can he do? Zeno will just do whatever he wants unless he finds something his subjects say a good idea and thinks it'll entertain him. He's just trying to make sure Zeno is happy, or at least manageable so he doesn't erase everything.

While don't like admitting this, Zamasu was right about one thing. The god hierarchy sucks.

Right? I have been saying this for years, the God hierarchy of Super is actually very messed up and the protagonists are all hypocrites. They all shit on Zamasu for committing genocide, meanwhile Goku is all buddy buddy with a kid who destroyed SIX UNIVERSES (trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocent lives...) because he was angry one day.

Honestly canon Super needs to adapt the Hearts storyline asap, because its about time someone questions Zeno on his behaviour. Very clearly Goku and co. have no problem with him, despite their rage at "seeing innocent lives erased".

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Also, its likely the GP is keeping Zeno in line(somewhat). The GP is probably the only thing keeping Zeno from flat out going 'fuck it' and erasing the multiverse because he's bored. Zeno is a god with the brain of a child, and like Hearts said, "No one should wield that type of power". Who knows what would happen if the GP or his guards weren't there, Zeno would be free to do EVERYTHING. Zeno is an evil child who will do whatever he wants for his amusement, if his shady baby-sitter has to keep him in line, that might be for the best. Especially since there are TWO Zeno's, two deranged psycho childish gods that the Grand Priest has to look after.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Grand Priest. Even if he didn't approve of what Zeno said, what can he do? Zeno will just do whatever he wants unless he finds something his subjects say a good idea and thinks it'll entertain him. He's just trying to make sure Zeno is happy, or at least manageable so he doesn't erase everything.

While don't like admitting this, Zamasu was right about one thing. The god hierarchy sucks.

Right? I have been saying this for years, the God hierarchy of Super is actually very messed up and the protagonists are all hypocrites. They all shit on Zamasu for committing genocide, meanwhile Goku is all buddy buddy with a kid who destroyed SIX UNIVERSES (trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocent lives...) because he was angry one day.

Honestly canon Super needs to adapt the Hearts storyline asap, because its about time someone questions Zeno on his behaviour. Very clearly Goku and co. have no problem with him, despite their rage at "seeing innocent lives erased".

Honestly its pretty obvious the hierarchy is mainly about appeasing Zeno and keeping him at bay. Everyone fears him, even the fucking angels are weary of him, along with the Grand Priest tries keeping his distance. His guards legit are terrified of him. NOBODY LIKES ZENO, he's just a force that they have to grovel and beg to in hopes he's in a decent mood so he won't erase them or their universes for no reason. Its not like he does it for good reasons, he just does it because he's bored. That's not the type of ruler anyone would want.

I think everyone would be better off without Zeno, because honestly he's just a deranged child who everyone has to submit to. If the god hierarchy does change, I think the only way to do it would be for Zeno's powers to at least be taken away for good.

[LoganForkHands73]

Also, its likely the GP is keeping Zeno in line(somewhat). The GP is probably the only thing keeping Zeno from flat out going 'fuck it' and erasing the multiverse because he's bored. Zeno is a god with the brain of a child, and like Hearts said, "No one should wield that type of power". Who knows what would happen if the GP or his guards weren't there, Zeno would be free to do EVERYTHING. Zeno is an evil child who will do whatever he wants for his amusement, if his shady baby-sitter has to keep him in line, that might be for the best. Especially since there are TWO Zeno's, two deranged psycho childish gods that the Grand Priest has to look after.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Grand Priest. Even if he didn't approve of what Zeno said, what can he do? Zeno will just do whatever he wants unless he finds something his subjects say a good idea and thinks it'll entertain him. He's just trying to make sure Zeno is happy, or at least manageable so he doesn't erase everything.

While don't like admitting this, Zamasu was right about one thing. The god hierarchy sucks.

Right? I have been saying this for years, the God hierarchy of Super is actually very messed up and the protagonists are all hypocrites. They all shit on Zamasu for committing genocide, meanwhile Goku is all buddy buddy with a kid who destroyed SIX UNIVERSES (trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocent lives...) because he was angry one day.

Honestly canon Super needs to adapt the Hearts storyline asap, because its about time someone questions Zeno on his behaviour. Very clearly Goku and co. have no problem with him, despite their rage at "seeing innocent lives erased".

I think the shittiness of the hierarchy is intentional and it's definitely gonna build to something eventually. Zeno is only considered inscrutable because of his power and innocent demeanour.

However, Zamasu's actions were still unequivocally wrong.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Also, its likely the GP is keeping Zeno in line(somewhat). The GP is probably the only thing keeping Zeno from flat out going 'fuck it' and erasing the multiverse because he's bored. Zeno is a god with the brain of a child, and like Hearts said, "No one should wield that type of power". Who knows what would happen if the GP or his guards weren't there, Zeno would be free to do EVERYTHING. Zeno is an evil child who will do whatever he wants for his amusement, if his shady baby-sitter has to keep him in line, that might be for the best. Especially since there are TWO Zeno's, two deranged psycho childish gods that the Grand Priest has to look after.

Honestly, I feel sorry for the Grand Priest. Even if he didn't approve of what Zeno said, what can he do? Zeno will just do whatever he wants unless he finds something his subjects say a good idea and thinks it'll entertain him. He's just trying to make sure Zeno is happy, or at least manageable so he doesn't erase everything.

While don't like admitting this, Zamasu was right about one thing. The god hierarchy sucks.

Right? I have been saying this for years, the God hierarchy of Super is actually very messed up and the protagonists are all hypocrites. They all shit on Zamasu for committing genocide, meanwhile Goku is all buddy buddy with a kid who destroyed SIX UNIVERSES (trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocent lives...) because he was angry one day.

Honestly canon Super needs to adapt the Hearts storyline asap, because its about time someone questions Zeno on his behaviour. Very clearly Goku and co. have no problem with him, despite their rage at "seeing innocent lives erased".

I think the shittiness of the hierarchy is intentional and it's definitely gonna build to something eventually. Zeno is only considered inscrutable because of his power and innocent demeanour.

However, Zamasu's actions were still unequivocally wrong.

Yeah, Zamasu's actions were wrong. Definitely agree with you.

But still, I don't see how anything is supposed to improve while the Zenos are basically oppressing everyone. Zeno also probably erased anyone who dared to question him because he found their complaints(reasonable or unreasonable) to be annoying. The god hierarchy sucks and honestly it should be changed.

The biggest issue with this is Zeno, seeing as while he's around, everyone is forced to bend over backwards to his wishes. They'd need to find a way to get rid of Zeno's powers because it's not like he uses them for good reasons(plays chess with planets and erases universes either because Beerus fell asleep during a game or because he got angry depending on interpretation, forces universes to compete for their survival else getting erased). The only thing that Zeno did that was useful was deleting Zamasu, but that doesn't mean he isn't a danger given his demeanor.

[Noitsnothim]

Right? I have been saying this for years, the God hierarchy of Super is actually very messed up and the protagonists are all hypocrites. They all shit on Zamasu for committing genocide, meanwhile Goku is all buddy buddy with a kid who destroyed SIX UNIVERSES (trillions upon trillions upon trillions of innocent lives...) because he was angry one day.

Honestly canon Super needs to adapt the Hearts storyline asap, because its about time someone questions Zeno on his behaviour. Very clearly Goku and co. have no problem with him, despite their rage at "seeing innocent lives erased".

I think the shittiness of the hierarchy is intentional and it's definitely gonna build to something eventually. Zeno is only considered inscrutable because of his power and innocent demeanour.

However, Zamasu's actions were still unequivocally wrong.

Yeah, Zamasu's actions were wrong. Definitely agree with you.

But still, I don't see how anything is supposed to improve while the Zenos are basically oppressing everyone. Zeno also probably erased anyone who dared to question him because he found their complaints(reasonable or unreasonable) to be annoying. The god hierarchy sucks and honestly it should be changed.

The biggest issue with this is Zeno, seeing as while he's around, everyone is forced to bend over backwards to his wishes. They'd need to find a way to get rid of Zeno's powers because it's not like he uses them for good reasons(plays chess with planets and erases universes either because Beerus fell asleep during a game or because he got angry depending on interpretation, forces universes to compete for their survival else getting erased). The only thing that Zeno did that was useful was deleting Zamasu, but that doesn't mean he isn't a danger given his demeanor.

This is why Hearts as a character would've benefited Super more than Heroes

[GodVegetto91]

There’s some real assumptions here being made saying the Grand Priest is somehow responsible for these rules. I seriously doubt it since he himself has to obey these same laws aswell most likely.

The way I took it is that when an Angel “breaks the code” no external being erases them (since they can’t be erased, they have absolute immortality), they simply self destruct... It’s part of their internal mathematical coding. It’s their nature! It’s reason itself that made it to be this way!

It basically goes something like this:

As an Angel, you are allowed to be all-powerful, all-skilled, all knowledgeable, etc etc. But on the other hand, there’s a great price to pay for it. You can’t use those powers on anyone else, otherwise you’ll simply disappear. That’s all about fairness. And mathematical balance.

I.e. You’re allowed to have all these literal otherworldly powers since you can’t use them anyways!

Because lets face it, if the Angels were all absolutely evil and this code didn’t exist, all other races throughout the Multiverse would be living in HELL throughout all eternity.

Yeah, I believe that's the case too. It's just hardwired into them that they absolutely cannot interfere outside of the "training" loophole. As morally shady as Daishinkan often appears, I highly doubt he'd do something like that to his own children, even if he does give them kind of a pony job as servants to spoiled-rotten destroyer deities. He presumably went to the effort to spare them from erasure during the Tournament of Power, probably by subtly manipulating Zeno.

It leads to an interesting question of what being designed the "Angel race" with these specific rules in mind. I mean, yeah, Daishinkan is the father of all other Angels, but he too is an Angel and he had to have come from somewhere.

And yeah, it's ultimately a good thing these rules are in place. If an Angel can develop a real conscience and compassion for mortals, one can just as easily become a monstrous force for evil just like Zamasu.

Well my theory is that not even Zeno can erase any of the Angels since they have absolute and total immortality and invulnerability. The “only way” they can die is through breaking the Angel code. Hence why Zeno didn’t erase them during the ToP (because he can’t!)

Otherwise, if Zeno could just erase an out of order, hell bent on destruction Angel who went all nuts every single time, then the Angelic law wouldn’t be needed.. Since they already have a way out (Zeno’s erasure button).

Also, both the Angels and the Omni-King’s come from “the great beyond”. The true world above OUTSIDE the 12 universes and their respective other worlds and demon realms, so logic would assume they are both of equal status. It’s just that the Zen-chans have been tasked with “ruler” of the mortal world below. While the Angels have not, if that makes sense to you.

That’s what I believe could be the case and it would explain a lot of things.

So basically in this version, Zen-Oh can erase ANY being from the lower world (12 universes and their other worlds and demon realms, including their Kaioshins and Gods of Destruction). But can’t erase any creature from his own “world beyond”.

Future Zamasu may have been “immortal” but he still belonged to the mortal world. Hence why he could be taken out. The Angels aren’t. They come from “the great beyond”.

[Noitsnothim]

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK (Via DBSHype) Part 1

Spoiler:

While Merus is fighting Moro, Dende heals Goku who arrives at the battlefield again right after that. Dende is also healing everyone else. As Goku arrives at the battlefield, he taps into UI Omen and charges at Moro, but moro defeats him again with ease! After defeating Goku, Moro sneaks and tries to hold Merus’ neck so he could copy his abilities. But Merus uses his Angel Staff to stop it and Moro fails to copy. Using his Angel staff and a gun, Merus destroys the Crystals/Stones Moro had in both of his hands.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK (Via DBSHype) Part 1

Spoiler:

While Merus is fighting Moro, Dende heals Goku who arrives at the battlefield again right after that. Dende is also healing everyone else. As Goku arrives at the battlefield, he taps into UI Omen and charges at Moro, but moro defeats him again with ease! After defeating Goku, Moro sneaks and tries to hold Merus’ neck so he could copy his abilities. But Merus uses his Angel Staff to stop it and Moro fails to copy. Using his Angel staff and a gun, Merus destroys the Crystals/Stones Moro had in both of his hands.

Thank god they didn't make Merus stupid enough to get grabbed. I would've been so fucking pissed if they did a 'Moro managed to sneak up on Merus and grab his neck) to make himself OP.

[Noitsnothim]

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! (Via DBSHype) FINAL

Spoiler:

After breaking the stones he had in his hands, merus powers up and the Halo appears around him, he’s about to charge at Moro again but right at that instant, Beerus and Whis arrive at the Battlefield. As the halo appears, Merus somewhat becomes Transparent, right after that he quickly charges at Moro. While he’s going towards him, Merus remembers his chat with Goku in the timechamber. Beerus and Whis don’t stop him by the way. Trying to stop Merus, Moro throws a big blast at him but it doesn’t work, Merus appears right in front his Face. As Merus appears right in front of him, he punches the big stone moro had in his head, which breaks, and Moro falls on the ground. Merus simply starts disappearing/fading away (in pieces), he looks at Goku and also has a smile on his face, he says something to him and then disappears completely. Goku is in complete shock after Merus disappears. In the last page there’s a small talk b/w Beerus and Whis, a big panel of Goku standing in back front position, his head is down.

[ShaggyBlanco]

Spoiler:

[Matches Malone]

It looks like Toyotaro is trying to pay homage to Goku's first Ssj transformation, but instead having Merus play Krillin's role in awakening MUI. So much for UI being a technique and not a transformation. If Goku doesn't get the job done, then everything post Vegeta's fight will have been a massive waste of time, and I think it's very unlikely that he won't. I still think Vegeta will end up separating the 2 and killing Moro, which will basically take us back to where we were in chapter 61, and when this arc should've ended.

[Noitsnothim]

It looks like Toyotaro is trying to pay homage to Goku's first Ssj transformation, but instead having Merus play Krillin's role in awakening MUI. So much for UI being a technique and not a transformation. If Goku doesn't get the job done, then everything post Vegeta's fight will have been a massive waste of time, and I think it's very unlikely that he will. I still think Vegeta will end up separating the 2 and killing Moro, which will basically take us back to where we were in chapter 61, and when this arc should've ended.

these words will roam around in Goku's head and instead of succumbing to rage and anger he'll accept what's happened and resolve it

[Noitsnothim]

Spoiler:

"It will activate when you achieve Self Control...In the face of a jarring shock to your emotions such is ULTRA INSTINCT

[DBZ Macky]

Spoiler:

Bruh, Merus really went "Mr. Whis, I don't feel so good"

I still don't get why Whis reverting time in RoF was apparently okay, but Merus isn't allowed to help Goku and co.

[ZombieVito]

My god this is so bad.

I changed my mind. I don't want Toei to fix this. Scrap it from existence and start with a new arc for Super 2.0.

[ssj3kakarot]

There’s some real assumptions here being made saying the Grand Priest is somehow responsible for these rules. I seriously doubt it since he himself has to obey these same laws aswell most likely.

The way I took it is that when an Angel “breaks the code” no external being erases them (since they can’t be erased, they have absolute immortality), they simply self destruct... It’s part of their internal mathematical coding. It’s their nature! It’s reason itself that made it to be this way!

It basically goes something like this:

As an Angel, you are allowed to be all-powerful, all-skilled, all knowledgeable, etc etc. But on the other hand, there’s a great price to pay for it. You can’t use those powers on anyone else, otherwise you’ll simply disappear. That’s all about fairness. And mathematical balance.

I.e. You’re allowed to have all these literal otherworldly powers since you can’t use them anyways!

Because lets face it, if the Angels were all absolutely evil and this code didn’t exist, all other races throughout the Multiverse would be living in HELL throughout all eternity.

Yeah, I believe that's the case too. It's just hardwired into them that they absolutely cannot interfere outside of the "training" loophole. As morally shady as Daishinkan often appears, I highly doubt he'd do something like that to his own children, even if he does give them kind of a pony job as servants to spoiled-rotten destroyer deities. He presumably went to the effort to spare them from erasure during the Tournament of Power, probably by subtly manipulating Zeno.

It leads to an interesting question of what being designed the "Angel race" with these specific rules in mind. I mean, yeah, Daishinkan is the father of all other Angels, but he too is an Angel and he had to have come from somewhere.

And yeah, it's ultimately a good thing these rules are in place. If an Angel can develop a real conscience and compassion for mortals, one can just as easily become a monstrous force for evil just like Zamasu.

Well my theory is that not even Zeno can erase any of the Angels since they have absolute and total immortality and invulnerability. The “only way” they can die is through breaking the Angel code. Hence why Zeno didn’t erase them during the ToP (because he can’t!)

Otherwise, if Zeno could just erase an out of order, hell bent on destruction Angel who went all nuts every single time, then the Angelic law wouldn’t be needed.. Since they already have a way out (Zeno’s erasure button).

Also, both the Angels and the Omni-King’s come from “the great beyond”. The true world above OUTSIDE the 12 universes and their respective other worlds and demon realms, so logic would assume they are both of equal status. It’s just that the Zen-chans have been tasked with “ruler” of the mortal world below. While the Angels have not, if that makes sense to you.

That’s what I believe could be the case and it would explain a lot of things.

So basically in this version, Zen-Oh can erase ANY being from the lower world (12 universes and their other worlds and demon realms, including their Kaioshins and Gods of Destruction). But can’t erase any creature from his own “world beyond”.

Future Zamasu may have been “immortal” but he still belonged to the mortal world. Hence why he could be taken out. The Angels aren’t. They come from “the great beyond”.

Unfortunately your theory has been disproven in the anime. Zeno can and has destroyed Grand Priest and an Angel before actually. He destroyed an entire timeline....in the Zamasu arc, that includes the GP and everyone else. There isn't anything he can't destory.

[Matches Malone]

My god this is so bad.

I changed my mind. I don't want Toei to fix this. Scrap it from existence and start with a new arc for Super 2.0.

If things were up to me, I'd scrap everything post BOG out of existence and continue from EOZ with a completely new direction.